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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: darkfire14 on August 22, 2010, 03:08:13 AM

Title: The Laws of Magic and Loss of Refresh
Post by: darkfire14 on August 22, 2010, 03:08:13 AM
I've recently got the Dresden Files RPG and like the development but see certain problems with one aspect of the rule set. The Laws of Magic are sensible and well defined but the game design makes it so that someone who breaks the law once can end up losing their character. This can easily happen because plenty of characters can buy down to 1 refresh, especially for magic-using characters which their magical powers have a high refresh cost to achieve. Plus with the wacky things wizards face it may be inevitable they end up breaking one or more of the laws sooner or later.  Plus if you break the same law 3 times you lose TWO refresh! By this reckoning, there would be a hell of a lot of 0 refresh spell casters out there (Way more than any White Council Wizards) especially the ignorant ones who may not have learned the Laws of Magic.

I myself oppose such a notion that breaking the laws of magic should cause Refresh loss. Remember that the laws of magic are a construct of an order of mages, not a metaphysical law of the entire Dresdenverse. So I am thinking in my games that breaking the laws of magic won't cause any refresh loss. Not that there won't be consequences however, such as being found out by the warden's, or suffering some bad side-effect from using forbidden magic, but it should not alone make your character unplayable (Unless of course his actions get him killed). If they want to be an evil bastard and flaunt the laws of magic, I say let them do it but have them tie their own noose around their neck by their actions, rather than grab their sheet away and remove them from play. Now as for the Changeling losing refresh, that I agree with, considering its a conscious choice to abandon one's humanity to become a creature of pure wild nature, that does make sense. So what's your opinions on this, should I stick with the rules or apply my own house rulings?
Title: Re: The Laws of Magic and Loss of Refresh
Post by: wyvern on August 22, 2010, 03:21:55 AM
Actually, the books (both rpg and novel) make it quite clear that the Laws of Magic *are* a metaphysical law of the entire Dresdenverse.  That said, it doesn't need to be such a metaphysical Law in your game; if you're more comfortable removing the "forced" nature of the laws of magic, you're certainly entitled to do so.

It's really up to what sort of game you want to run.  The lawbreaker powers are built the way they are to represent just how easy it is for an unwary caster to slide from human to monster; if you want to make that path harder to walk, you can certainly remove them (or make them optional rather than required).

From my point of view, the Laws are one of the main limiting effects on mortal wizards; the game system is built so that magic is powerful - often more powerful than other options.  Someone using mortal magic has the Laws as counterbalance; someone using sponsored magic has their sponsor as counterbalance; and if you remove either of those counterbalances you have to start asking yourself why wizards don't run the world...
Title: Re: The Laws of Magic and Loss of Refresh
Post by: darkfire14 on August 22, 2010, 03:37:24 AM
I just find it more "Thematic", for a character to role-play the consequences of breaking the laws of magic rather than grabbing their sheet and ripping it up cause their "Refresh" hit Zero. The trouble from breaking the laws of magic should be more roleplay than mechanical. Believe me, it looks to be extremely easy to get to 0 refresh by breaking the laws of magic. Its not like everyone is educated in what they are either, the White Court dosen't know every spell caster in the world, in fact its a pretty small organization as far as I've heard. Anyway, my point is, its better for characters to roleplay the consequences of their actions, rather than have a game mechanic destroy their character. That's my 0.02 cents.
Title: Re: The Laws of Magic and Loss of Refresh
Post by: Stormraven on August 22, 2010, 03:38:59 AM
Also, to my reading, there's nothing specifically stating that the player has to take the Lawbreaker powers, thus losing Refresh.  I see them more as a mechanic to indicate that the character is facing temptation from doing so.

Of course, I could be wrong, or mis-reading them, but that's the way I see it.
Title: Re: The Laws of Magic and Loss of Refresh
Post by: Ala Alba on August 22, 2010, 04:33:34 AM
darkfire14, have you read the books? It doesn't seem like it, but I figured I would ask.

It seems like you are looking for somebody to agree with you on this, but it's hardly necessary. If you don't like a rule, you are more than welcome to change it.

With that said, it is actually rather unlikely that you would ever be forced to break a Law. It's hardly inevitable. Even the Law against killing is trivially easy to avoid breaking, at least from a rules standpoint.
Title: Re: The Laws of Magic and Loss of Refresh
Post by: Ophidimancer on August 22, 2010, 04:38:16 AM
Plus with the wacky things wizards face it may be inevitable they end up breaking one or more of the laws sooner or later.

This isn't something that should just happen, though.  Remember how important narrative is in this game.  If it's going to happen, the storyteller should be fully prepared to deal with the consequences and fallout, and should similarly have prepared the player for it as well.  Something like this should probably only happen with player cooperation, and thus either happen at a milestone moment, with a concurrent Refresh increase, or perhaps it should lose the character the use of another Power or Stunt, with appropriate story reasons.

Also, to my reading, there's nothing specifically stating that the player has to take the Lawbreaker powers, thus losing Refresh.  I see them more as a mechanic to indicate that the character is facing temptation from doing so.

Of course, I could be wrong, or mis-reading them, but that's the way I see it.

No, the book says that you must take a Lawbreaker Stunt upon breaking one of the Laws of Magic.  It's a metaphysical truth in the Dresdenverse.
Title: Re: The Laws of Magic and Loss of Refresh
Post by: MijRai on August 22, 2010, 04:41:19 AM
This isn't something that should just happen, though.  Remember how important narrative is in this game.  If it's going to happen, the storyteller should be fully prepared to deal with the consequences and fallout, and should similarly have prepared the player for it as well.  Something like this should probably only happen with player cooperation, and thus either happen at a milestone moment, with a concurrent Refresh increase, or perhaps it should lose the character the use of another Power or Stunt, with appropriate story reasons.

No, the book says that you must take a Lawbreaker Stunt upon breaking one of the Laws of Magic.  It's a metaphysical truth in the Dresdenverse.

Exactly.
Title: Re: The Laws of Magic and Loss of Refresh
Post by: Synthesse on August 22, 2010, 04:58:23 AM
I don't know. Personally, if I were running the game as GM, I would make it so that Lawbreaker stunts are only taken in cases in which a character intentionally breaks a law of magic, as opposed to unintentionally: eg if you were throwing a lightning bolt and it accidentally struck a civilian you had no way of knowing was there, that wouldn't be lawbreaker, but if you burned down a building knowing that there were civilians in the building and some of them died, that would. In the same vein, if I didn't know that a player remembered that breaking a law of magic could kill their character, I would gently remind them of this fact before they acted, and if they still chose to do so, so be it.

As for whether its a 'metaphysical law' of the Dresdenverse, I don't think that's exactly true. We have to keep in mind that both the books and the RPG are both written from Harry Dresden's very very biased viewpoint. He's gotten better about it throughout the series, but he still has a strong tendancy to try to paint the world in black and white. If the Laws of Magic were so clear and fundamental, it would leave questions such as:
(click to show/hide)
In the RPG, they discuss how some of the laws are in place not because they are evil, as opposed to maintaining the status quo. I dunno, it seems like there's a decent degree of flexibility without breaking cannon, simply because Dresden isn't omniscient.
Title: Re: The Laws of Magic and Loss of Refresh
Post by: MijRai on August 22, 2010, 05:36:21 AM
As for whether its a 'metaphysical law' of the Dresdenverse, I don't think that's exactly true. We have to keep in mind that both the books and the RPG are both written from Harry Dresden's very very biased viewpoint. He's gotten better about it throughout the series, but he still has a strong tendancy to try to paint the world in black and white. If the Laws of Magic were so clear and fundamental, it would leave questions such as:
(click to show/hide)
In the RPG, they discuss how some of the laws are in place not because they are evil, as opposed to maintaining the status quo. I dunno, it seems like there's a decent degree of flexibility without breaking cannon, simply because Dresden isn't omniscient.
Evidence points to the Laws being real. Harry, nearly succumbing to the temptation of killing Sells with magic. The Korean kid, who had forced his family to murder people, and was a raving madman. The main necromancers, with their obvious insanity and feelings of invincibility. Breaking a Law is bad, for sure.

The Blackstaff has a, you guessed it: Blackstaff. It protects him from the taint.
As far as the Gatekeeper, who says he broke a Law?
The Law that maintains the status quo is the traveling against the current of time one. All of the others harm, a lot. You kill them, destroy their minds in various ways, desecrate their bodies and spirits, or summon beings that are the anti-thesis of life. Those are bad.
Merlin created the White Council, not the Laws of Magic. The White Council may enforce them, but they didn't just arbitrarily make them.
Title: Re: The Laws of Magic and Loss of Refresh
Post by: Synthesse on August 22, 2010, 06:06:37 AM
Evidence points to the Laws being real. Harry, nearly succumbing to the temptation of killing Sells with magic. The Korean kid, who had forced his family to murder people, and was a raving madman. The main necromancers, with their obvious insanity and feelings of invincibility. Breaking a Law is bad, for sure.

The Blackstaff has a, you guessed it: Blackstaff. It protects him from the taint.
As far as the Gatekeeper, who says he broke a Law?
The Law that maintains the status quo is the traveling against the current of time one. All of the others harm, a lot. You kill them, destroy their minds in various ways, desecrate their bodies and spirits, or summon beings that are the anti-thesis of life. Those are bad.
Merlin created the White Council, not the Laws of Magic. The White Council may enforce them, but they didn't just arbitrarily make them.

Actually, chapter 6 in Changes said that the Merlin did write the Laws of Magic, and I thought it was heavily implied that the Gatekeeper breaks the Time Travel law all the time? Or the seventh law for that matter? Its kinda his job

 I think the existence of "exceptions" or "status quo" rules like the Blackstaff or the 6th law (or heck even the laws against Necromancy and contacting the Outer Gates are less 'evil' and more 'we don't want people to be tempted') kinda suggest that the laws aren't some kind of divine sacrament or universal truth. Molly comments recently in the books about how the more she sees of the world, the more she sees grays rather than blacks and whites, and I think that's a theme of character development that seems to be progressing through the series.

As for the temptations of power or people becoming evil/mad overtime, I think that's less of a compulsion from the universe as consequence of breaking a law of magic, and more that these people's personalities change overtime, because power corrupts, be it magical or non-magical.

Regardless, its possible that the original Merlin created some kind of enchantment on the world so powerful that people who do break the laws of Magic suffer consequences or something, which would not only explain the Lawbreaker things being automatically required, but also the fact that Wizards who are powerful enough or have powerful artifacts like the Blackstaff are immune.
Title: Re: The Laws of Magic and Loss of Refresh
Post by: MijRai on August 22, 2010, 06:43:57 AM
Actually, chapter 6 in Changes said that the Merlin did write the Laws of Magic, and I thought it was heavily implied that the Gatekeeper breaks the Time Travel law all the time? Or the seventh law for that matter? Its kinda his job

 I think the existence of "exceptions" or "status quo" rules like the Blackstaff or the 6th law (or heck even the laws against Necromancy and contacting the Outer Gates are less 'evil' and more 'we don't want people to be tempted') kinda suggest that the laws aren't some kind of divine sacrament or universal truth. Molly comments recently in the books about how the more she sees of the world, the more she sees grays rather than blacks and whites, and I think that's a theme of character development that seems to be progressing through the series.

As for the temptations of power or people becoming evil/mad overtime, I think that's less of a compulsion from the universe as consequence of breaking a law of magic, and more than these people's personalities change overtime, because power corrupts, be it magical or non-magical.

Regardless, its possible that the original Merlin created some kind of enchantment on the world so powerful that people who do break the laws of Magic suffer consequences or something, which would not only explain the Lawbreaker things being automatically required, but also the fact that Wizards who are powerful enough or have powerful artifacts like the Blackstaff are immune.

If Merlin wrote them, then I see it as Einstein writing about nuclear physics. It was already there, he just documented it.

The Blackstaff isn't really an exception. It is an item that takes the taint instead of the user. The orignal owner of it still wants it back too, according to Jim.

How is Necromancy and the summoning of beings anti-thetical to life not evil? Those are some of the worst. Time travel manitains the status quo, sure, but that is because a paradox may destroy reality. They don't want to risk it happening, that is for sure. How has Rashid broken the 6th Law? As for the Seventh, he doesn't have to summon them in order to keep them locked up. He just needs to check the locks, throw a couple bars over the door, and banish the few that get in.

That's what breaking a Law does. It corrupts you. It is a stain anyone (with power) can see, and it changes you.

I doubt a wizard of any caliber could do that last bit. And who is immune to them, beside the Blackstaff (who has his filtering tool)?
Title: Re: The Laws of Magic and Loss of Refresh
Post by: Synthesse on August 22, 2010, 07:01:32 AM
If Merlin wrote them, then I see it as Einstein writing about nuclear physics. It was already there, he just documented it.

The Blackstaff isn't really an exception. It is an item that takes the taint instead of the user. The orignal owner of it still wants it back too, according to Jim.

How is Necromancy and the summoning of beings anti-thetical to life not evil? Those are some of the worst. Time travel manitains the status quo, sure, but that is because a paradox may destroy reality. They don't want to risk it happening, that is for sure. How has Rashid broken the 6th Law? As for the Seventh, he doesn't have to summon them in order to keep them locked up. He just needs to check the locks, throw a couple bars over the door, and banish the few that get in.

That's what breaking a Law does. It corrupts you. It is a stain anyone (with power) can see, and it changes you.

I doubt a wizard of any caliber could do that last bit. And who is immune to them, beside the Blackstaff (who has his filtering tool)?

In the book, it isn't phrased like he discovered them, its phrased like he created them. But then again its only a sentence that mentions it. Without more information we can't really know.

The Blackstaff is an exception because it has the ability to take 'taint' into it. The fact that this ability even exists means that its within the bounds of reality to resist the 'taint' of the Law of Magic, through magical means (assuming the Blackstaff was enchanted to resist the 'taint').

Well, calling back/using souls is evil, but I wouldn't say that the use of dead corpses which don't have a mind/soul within them is evil, but this is more of a philosophical issue. (I would see the other laws of Magic used to protect a being with choice, ie a mortal - I wouldn't consider a body with a vacated spirit a mortal anymore, hence its not evil to use it). As for the risk of breaking reality, any magic has inherient risks with it. The difference between the first four laws and the sixth and seventh laws are that the first four prohibit actions which will always lead to a mortal's choice being stolen (ie evil), whereas the sixth and seventh prohibit actions which might if used inappropriately lead to a mortal's choice being stolen, just with much larger consequences. In this sense, I see the sixth and seventh laws as 'evil' as using any other type of magic - they have the capacity for evil, but don't directly lead to it.

Its not directly stated in the books, but in both Turn Coat, for instance, and the RPG books, it says that Harry suspects the Gatekeeper has broken the 6th law, although we don't really see it. And the 7th law isn't just collaborating with Outsiders, its trying to learn any knowledge at all about them. And this is the Gatekeeper's job. So he is in a constant state of violating the 7th law, and Harry suspects that he violates the 6th law, and Harry has pretty good instincts.


Overall though, there are too many questions to say definitively that "The laws of magic are absolute" or "The laws of magic are fabricated", so there's no use arguing over it. I guess we'll find out in future books, but in the meantime, there is plenty of leeway to go one way or the other inside a campaign.
Title: Re: The Laws of Magic and Loss of Refresh
Post by: MijRai on August 22, 2010, 07:15:20 AM
For the first four Laws, there isn't leeway. There is your first chance. Now, the last three, there can be some. Don't mess with humans, don't go against the flow of time (which Bob said the Gatekeepr probably avoids), and actually summoning them probably breaks the Law. Knowledge might be worth your neck, but you aren't being evil, which summoning them is, for sure.
Title: Re: The Laws of Magic and Loss of Refresh
Post by: Miso on August 22, 2010, 10:19:56 AM
The Laws Of Magic are a way of balancing the gameplay imho.
Wizards are extremely powerful. The Laws are a way of restricting them.
Otherwise I would imagine that every player just plays a wizard if there is almost no downside to being a wizard.

It should be made clear to the players (meta-wise) that some actions they are about to take will make them break a law. As a GM I would say: "Hey, if you do this, it will go against the 1st law. Are you sure that you wanna do that?"
If the player is ok with that I have no problem to reduce the refresh.
On the other hand I wouldn't come up with seemingly "monster" npcs to kill just to say afterwards: "Hey this was a person with a soul, you killing it was against 1st law. Your char is now down to refresh 0, goodbye".
One's not a jerk as GM...
To put it in a nutshell: I don't think it is hard to avoid breaking the laws if you describe the situations clearly. I would use the Laws Of Magic game-wise to balance the game.
Title: Re: The Laws of Magic and Loss of Refresh
Post by: mostlyawake on August 22, 2010, 11:26:39 AM
If it helps any, I changed this rule too... the first lawbreaker is still -1, as well as each new law you break, but then it takes 5 instances to get to -2 in the same law.  One you're past that, it takes 20 instances of breaking that law -or any other law that you have -2 in- to add another -1 (because now you're paying refresh for no further benefit). Basically after you get to -2 i just start writing "further violations" and adding everything together.

I did this because my necromancers (who regularly violate a law) would end up being some insane 21 refresh character even though they are just a wizard with a +3 bonus to trying to kill you with zombies (lawbreaker for killing with magic and messing with the bounds of life and death). It takes 5 refresh just to get that +3 (technically to any attempt at necromancy or killing with magic), compared to 3 refinement to get the same +3 in two categories (say, necro control, necro complexity).  So that's actually quite fair, as the lawbreaker stunt is more useful (any magic roll trying to break a law is just as powerful or better than than say, +3 fire control, because it applies to any type of magic you use, but only in certain situations).

But, then i say "this dude has an army of zombies for you to fight".  So i send 2 dozen zombies and now I'm supposed to have added 8 more refresh to the guy, with no power enhancement.  That's lame.  But my way adds another 1-2 refresh, and that seems fine (even though there is no mechanical benefit).
Title: Re: The Laws of Magic and Loss of Refresh
Post by: infusco on August 22, 2010, 02:59:32 PM
Might want to read the section on Lawbreaker again, mostlyawake.

Your Lawbreaker (per individual law) refresh only goes to -2. The real danger in breaking the laws repeatedly is that your Aspects start to change to reflect your twisted nature. Which the GM can start compelling to encourage you to break that law again and again. Fun, eh?
Title: Re: The Laws of Magic and Loss of Refresh
Post by: lankyogre on August 22, 2010, 03:15:46 PM
I'm gonna have to say that this is a topic that confuses me. I think one of the accepted realities of Dresdenfiles is the way in which the laws of magic work. For your game you are more than welcome to change whatever you want. You can remove hexing, change the speed of thaumaturgy, make the Red Court all sunshine and puppies. Each one is a move away from the theme of the setting that Jim Butcher set. Not that any of them are wrong, and not that there aren't a lot of people in the Dresdenverse that break the rules all the time.

On the topic of specifically towards PCs, as long as there is open communication, it should be fine. If the character has the intent to break the law (not I know the speed limit is 45, but I'm going to go 60 anyway; but I am going to go as fast as I want). Molly didn't intend to break the law, but she did intend to mess with someones mind. It has also been shown that she still wants to mess with people's minds and finds it an expedient answer. That means it has changed who she is.
Title: Re: The Laws of Magic and Loss of Refresh
Post by: KOFFEYKID on August 22, 2010, 05:30:57 PM
For those arguing whether the laws are a fundamental law of the universe or a mortal law, here is a quote directly from the rulebook:

Quote from: Your Story page 232
In this way, the Laws aren’t a legal entity at all; they’re a set of magical principles that, when broken, lead to a fundamental change in the nature of the person who broke them. The White Council also enforces them as laws, but that’s in addition to this fundamental change. You could say that the Laws exist as two separate concepts with 99% overlap—the Wardens of the White Council enforce one concept (law), while reality metaphysically enforces the other (nature).

So Merlin wrote them down, they are his observations on the laws of the universe, like Newton and Einstein.

As for my thoughts on the laws, I think they are mechanically clunky in that they cost refresh but dont necessarily increase your "power". The wizard with a lawbreaker is always weaker than he should be unless he embraces the darkness. This is not good.

This makes it so that you dont ever want to break them which is the point but it also makes it so that playing the guy who messed up once is mechanically inferior to the goody two shoes. Limiting the scope of playable character concepts sharply. My proposed fix was to ditch the lawbreakers and enforce aspect changes.
Title: Re: The Laws of Magic and Loss of Refresh
Post by: ironchicken on August 22, 2010, 06:03:49 PM
You can always use the "going off the deep end" on YS92. This is a simple solution that puts them in piles of trouble without retiring the character.
Title: Re: The Laws of Magic and Loss of Refresh
Post by: cetra02 on August 22, 2010, 07:25:06 PM

The Blackstaff isn't really an exception. It is an item that takes the taint instead of the user. The orignal owner of it still wants it back too, according to Jim.

When and where was this said?
Title: Re: The Laws of Magic and Loss of Refresh
Post by: Richard_Chilton on August 22, 2010, 08:35:55 PM
The way I see it, if breaking a law of magic takes you to 0 or below then you become one of those out of control warlocks.  For example, that kid executed in Proven Guilty lost his freewill and had to break the law over and over again while Molly's player had a couple of refreshes in reserve so Molly stayed above 0 when she broke the law.

(click to show/hide)

That said, I think there needs to be a bit of leeway over the intent.  When Dresden burnt down that house to kill the vampire the poisoned humans were probably already dead (and if not they were dying).  If any had been alive, well, Dresden didn't mean to kill them and metaphysically he didn't break the laws of magic, but if a certain Warden had been around then I could see Dresden getting his second trial - this one ending in death.

Another thing to remember is that while the game maps well to the books, the books weren't written with the game in mind.  Jim Butcher writes stories to entertain us and while he more or less keeps things at consistent he uses plot devices were needed.

Richard
Title: Re: The Laws of Magic and Loss of Refresh
Post by: finnmckool on August 23, 2010, 06:53:49 AM
We don't know how the Blackstaff does it actually. The book suggests that the actual staff itself is doing *something* but since we've just now seen it and we've never actually talked about it in the books at all there's no way for us to know how. And no one knows exactly what the Gatekeeper does, so you don't know if he's breaking the law all the time, or if he is does he possess something that enables this like the Blackstaff MAY (again, that's a presumption).

Not to mention, your character probably SHOULDN'T be going around breaking those laws a lot as it would really stretch credulity to keep getting away with something like that and not getting your head cut off, which seems to be something that happens pretty easily. And has been said, what laws are so easy to break that you think anyone would most likely break them at some point? I mean the First Law only applies to mortals and only applies to magic. Don't wanna break the first Law? Shoot the guy in the face with a bullet. Done. No law broken. As for the rest I can't see a deep necessity in breaking those.
Title: Re: The Laws of Magic and Loss of Refresh
Post by: Wyrdrune on August 23, 2010, 12:27:49 PM
and what we have seen of the blackstaff in
(click to show/hide)
show us that it might not be an item easy to handle.

as i see it: all the rules as written in the rulebook are the dresdenverse - you and your group of players are allowed to deviate as much as they like from that set of rules, but then it's not the dresdenverse in the sense jim intended it. not that this is a bad thing. when i read about mostlyawake's game where the necromancers summon hordes of zombies before breakfast I thought, "sounds lik a hell of fun", but I would not imagine the dresdenverse that way.

as with each rpg, every rule is optional and people are invited to make up their own, no need to argue about that, but with each step they put more and more distance between their game and the way it was conceived. every group has the right to play their style. it's the same like "hey, I heard you are playing a last airbender game with the DFRPG? stop doing that, it's not the dresdenverse!"

last but no least: my take is on the laws is: most laws (like killing) apply only to mortals, if you kill vampires there's no lawbreaker. there are lots of ways to circumvent breaking the laws (like doing holographic illusions insteand influencing the mind of people to see things, using weapons). if laws are broken the powers must taken immediately and apply to the refresh rating. be honest, if there would be any problem, we GMs have enough power to find a way to make things possible. (I intend to give a player the living dead power for a while, as he dies and will be resurrected, at that milestone all players get 1 refresh (end of a story arc), but he gets 2. end of that story arc when he gets back to real living others get 1 refresh, and he loses living dead and this refresh is free for other stuff. in the end everything is fair for all.)

and I like have my players a bit uncertain about that free will/nature thing. for some it's the attraction of the game, of playing a changeling, who loses himself more and more the more he uses his powers. i know a lot of players who like to think around the corners to avoid losing humanity, gaining lawbreakers whatever.

it's part of the thrill, knowing you could end the whole problem here, by blasting the bad guy to hell with a lightning bolt, but you know you shouldn't.
Title: Re: The Laws of Magic and Loss of Refresh
Post by: Bruce Coulson on August 23, 2010, 03:48:53 PM
The Laws (as far as we have seen in the source material) appear to be metaphysical/supernatural laws on par with physical laws in mundane reality.  That is, you don't get to 'break' them without penalties.  Any more than you can jump off a building without falling.  Now, that isn't to say there aren't ways around the Laws.  Just as you CAN jump off a building and not fall if you're wearing a jet pack, you can avoid the consequences of the Laws.  But you're not really 'breaking' them so much as finding a way around them.

I generally go with the idea that the Laws are the White Council's best guess at to what para-reality's laws are.  There haven't been any wizard theoreticians (that we know of) ala Newton to codify these Laws; they are 'rules of thumb' for mortal practicioners
Title: Re: The Laws of Magic and Loss of Refresh
Post by: Stormraven on August 23, 2010, 08:25:40 PM
On re-reading, yes, I was wrong.  Missed the bit about 'must'.
Title: Re: The Laws of Magic and Loss of Refresh
Post by: BigMrE on August 23, 2010, 08:55:13 PM
And I have a situation where the player used magic and killed a baddie, but was using player vs. character knowledge, and didn't stop to think that it might be a mortal that had been infected by a vamp (a thrall, if you will...).  As it was our first session, I have an NPC that is going to "lay down the law" to him (as on page 235 of the 1st law, it says that the wardens have become a bit more "lenient" on breaking the 1st law, only because they are too busy).

I'm also going to make it perfectly clear that this is a 1 time only deal.
Title: Re: The Laws of Magic and Loss of Refresh
Post by: JosephKell on August 23, 2010, 09:33:58 PM
If the person was a Renfield, then he wasn't "mortal" anymore.  If someone has had their mind twisted to the point he can't recover, then he is little more than a breathing doll.

And even the more "mortal" supernaturals (like Changelings and White Court Vampires) only qualify as mortal if they are positive refresh AND not acting monstrous at the time.  Notice in the books that Mouse only growls at Thomas when he goes into "feeding mode," but not when he goes "silver hero."
Title: Re: The Laws of Magic and Loss of Refresh
Post by: BigMrE on August 23, 2010, 09:56:38 PM
In the novels, Dresden is informed by Bob that they are still mortal, just really, really messed up.

They may not have control of their faculties, but they still have a soul, which is what the 1st Law boils down to RAW.

(click to show/hide)

They are just enhanced humans that are "mindless".
Title: Re: The Laws of Magic and Loss of Refresh
Post by: MijRai on August 23, 2010, 10:21:23 PM
In the novels, Dresden is informed by Bob that they are still mortal, just really, really messed up.

They may not have control of their faculties, but they still have a soul, which is what the 1st Law boils down to RAW.

(click to show/hide)

They are just enhanced humans that are "mindless".

But what if having a mind is what gives them a soul? Taking it away may be the same as killing them, but with a handy body that you can use how you want.
Title: Re: The Laws of Magic and Loss of Refresh
Post by: JosephKell on August 23, 2010, 10:50:28 PM
Soul != Free Will/Mortal.

And I think Bob's exact words were more of it not breaking the 1st law, but killing Renfields can give a wizard a very bad habit, it isn't a big step from killing broken thralls to killing people.

Fae have souls, they just aren't mortal or free willed.  Angels are only souls, when they appear they make a vessel from ectoplasm (just like demons).

A mindless thrall doesn't have free choice or free will.  Since a major theme of DFrpg (it is like the first universe plot point of chapter 1) is "Monsters have Nature, Mortals have Choice."  A thing that doesn't have choice is not mortal (might not be a monster either).  In this case, I would group a thrall in the same category of rabid animals (Renfields/rough thralls) or trained animals (thralls).  Thralls (but not rough thralls) might not be beyond recovery, but Renfields are.

A practitioner that goes so dark side from Lawbreakers as to be negative refresh is no longer a mortal because their mind is so bent.  A Serial Killer would also be a "pure mortal" version of a negative refresh character.
Title: Re: The Laws of Magic and Loss of Refresh
Post by: Belial666 on August 23, 2010, 11:15:55 PM
That also explains why serial killers can be badass; they used up all their refresh for stunts.
Title: Re: The Laws of Magic and Loss of Refresh
Post by: Korwin on August 24, 2010, 10:02:44 AM
My proposed fix was to ditch the lawbreakers and enforce aspect changes.

I use that too. (And afterwards heavy compelling of the Aspects.)
But I use the Aspect Changes for non-Magic breaking of the Laws too.
(A Killer is a Killer IMHO.)
Title: Re: The Laws of Magic and Loss of Refresh
Post by: JosephKell on August 24, 2010, 09:22:45 PM
(A Killer is a Killer IMHO.)
I agree, I don't think people that walk around murdering people should get a free walk on the path to darkness just because they don't use magic.

I just think magic is sort of a "fast track" to darkness because of the necessity of belief in purpose.

So you could put a third class of refresh consumption into your game that relates to people that just do horrible things.  It would just have a slower curve.  Like start a [-0], then go up to [-2] max, and stretch out the amount of "offenses" before aspects start changing.
Title: Re: The Laws of Magic and Loss of Refresh
Post by: Kaldra on August 25, 2010, 04:35:26 PM
hear is a new question does killing with an Enchanted Item count as breaking the first law?

for example:

a player enchants a knfie to release a blast of fire power 4 3 times a seesion when striking an opponent and uses this knife to kill a mortal. the blade is a magic item that he made. he killed a mortal with the blade. did he break the first law?

keep in mind wardens kill mortals with magic swords on a regular basis but dont seem to break the first law, however the older wardens are not all that happy and well in spirit ( remember morgan's soul was pretty dark and sad near the end ).

Title: Re: The Laws of Magic and Loss of Refresh
Post by: luminos on August 25, 2010, 04:44:05 PM
Does he use the magic on the knife to kill?  That is to say, did he use the fire blast while slicing the guy with the blade?  If yes, its a violation.  If no, its not a violation.  It seems clear to me, but I've seen this question or variation a lot, so there must be some point that there is tension over.  Is magic being used to kill a human with? is the basic question that needs to be answered in first law questions.

Components:
1.)  Is a human going to die from the action you are taking?
2.)  Is the action that causes their death magic, in any way or form?

The only part that would require interpretation is a 3rd point, intent, which can be handled differently from group to group, but it essentially come down to
3.)  Did your use of magic have deadly intent?

If you say yes to those three points, its a violation.  If you say no to one of the first two, and sometimes the third, its not a violation.
Title: Re: The Laws of Magic and Loss of Refresh
Post by: Kaldra on August 25, 2010, 05:21:10 PM
1.)  Is a human going to die from the action you are taking?
in my players words "put the knife in teh back and twist twist twist" i do belive that the perferated lung would have done it but the fire certainly helps so yes
2.)  Is the action that causes their death magic, in any way or form?
partialy the action stabbing a man/woman/person with a knife is mundane, the knife bursting into flame is magic.
3.)  Did your use of magic have deadly intent?
ya... no real way around that one unless the inteded purpose was a campfire lighter that got used as an impromtue weapon.

hmmm looking at it like that it seems like it would break the first law but it still seems kinda grey.

what about the guy that uses a version of the kinfe that is useable by anyone, does the pure mortal who wields and kills with the knife breaking the first law? if he is then this opens up a whole new can o worms. other wise if it doesnt break the first law for a pure mortal who used the knife to kill a man why then is it a violation of the first law for the magical person that made the knife or say another magical person using the kinfe?
Title: Re: The Laws of Magic and Loss of Refresh
Post by: Bruce Coulson on August 25, 2010, 05:31:41 PM
If using enchanted weapons as weapons violated the 1st Law, Warden's swords wouldn't exist.

There's been no wizard Newton to codify why the Laws work as they do.  The best explanation I've come up with is that Magic is what You Are; tools and skills are what You Do.  Using magic directly to cause harm changes what you are at a fundamental, metaphysical level.  Whereas using a tool or skill is merely an expression of what is already present within you.

This isn't to say that there shouldn't be consequences for killing someone, whatever the method.  (I've invented an antagonist group for the White Council based on exactly that.)  Just that the consquences aren't metaphysical, Lawbreaker ones.  But a police officer once observed, "There are no 'good' shootings; just justified ones."
Title: Re: The Laws of Magic and Loss of Refresh
Post by: WillH on August 25, 2010, 05:50:28 PM
The only thing that determines whether or not something violates one of the laws is what your group* wants for the story. There is no hard internal logic to the rules in the novel or the game. The needs of the story is the only thing that matters. This isn't D&D where forum posters debate ad nauseam whether or not something was an evil act and should Tim's paladin loose his powers.

*The use of the word group and not GM was intentional.
Title: Re: The Laws of Magic and Loss of Refresh
Post by: Bruce Coulson on August 25, 2010, 06:18:59 PM
You are correct; whatever works for your gaming group is what's right.

But a certain internal consistency within your group definitely helps.  If you feel that using any type of magic to kill someone is a violation, and your group is okay with that, then that is correct; but then your group has now set the parameters for the 1st Law and should stick with that from now on.  Otherwise you have the situation where your players don't know from session to session what is acceptable behavior.  Which IS very realistic; but not much fun, imho.

I was merely giving the best viewpoint based on my readings of the books and rpg and the available information we have.  Wardens have swords; they use them to execute people; wardens aren't violating the 1st Law (as far as we know); the swords are enchanted; so enchanted swords, in my opinion and for my group, do not violate the 1st Law.
Title: Re: The Laws of Magic and Loss of Refresh
Post by: WillH on August 25, 2010, 06:29:06 PM
Bruce, that wasn't directed at you, or anyone in particular. It was just a general comment on all the "Laws Threads" out there. What I was getting at is people should stop looking for a "Right" answer here, because there isn't one. You're right about consistency within one's own group though.
Title: Re: The Laws of Magic and Loss of Refresh
Post by: JosephKell on August 25, 2010, 10:20:24 PM
Committing cold murder could trigger a mental attack similar to what Demonic Co-Pilot does.

If you get a consequence, you need to justify recovery before you can start the countdown to removing it.  That probably means therapy.  I think therapists are required by law to report people that confess to murder.  I think the confessional (Catholic tradition of shedding sin) is protected, priests can encourage the penitent to surrender to the authorities, but they can't testify at a trial.

If you don't seek help, you won't recover, so the next time you might have to fill your extreme consequence and permanently alter an aspect.
Title: Re: The Laws of Magic and Loss of Refresh
Post by: Bruce Coulson on August 25, 2010, 10:29:52 PM
This could easily fit a serious campaign that wants to emphasize the seriousness of taking a human life; by any means, and for any reason.  (Most police departments require counseling after a fatal shooting, even if the shooting was justified under law and by departmental policy.)
Title: Re: The Laws of Magic and Loss of Refresh
Post by: Kaldra on August 26, 2010, 03:08:38 AM
started up a new thread for the idea of a mortal version of the Lawbreaker power.
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,20729.0.html
Title: Re: The Laws of Magic and Loss of Refresh
Post by: Wyrdrune on August 26, 2010, 08:05:53 AM
and in the end, it only matters what your friendly neighbourhood the warden saw.

"there was this wizard, who was killing a man, with a knife that blasted fire." even if it was the knife that was killing the man and not the magic fire blasts, how did it look to the wardens?

as i see them, they won't ask "oh, you stabbed him three times with fire blasts to soften him up, and killed him with a non-magic stab?", no i think it's off-with-his-head-time.
Title: Re: The Laws of Magic and Loss of Refresh
Post by: Korwin on August 26, 2010, 10:40:12 AM
and in the end, it only matters what your friendly neighbourhood the warden saw.

Disagree, thats totally another question.
Entirely separate from the Lawbreaker stunt power.
You get the Lawbreaker stunt power if a Warden is watching or not (if your group didnt delete those stunts powers).
Title: Re: The Laws of Magic and Loss of Refresh
Post by: Belial666 on August 26, 2010, 10:43:52 AM
That's why my characters tend to banish people instead of killing them. Don't like someone? Send them through a temporal rift a year or two ahead in time. Technically YOU aren not swimming against the current; somebody else is. And technically he is not swimming against; only forward.
Title: Re: The Laws of Magic and Loss of Refresh
Post by: Wyrdrune on August 26, 2010, 11:51:44 AM
Disagree, thats totally another question.
Entirely separate from the Lawbreaker stunt power.
You get the Lawbreaker stunt power if a Warden is watching or not (if your group didnt delete those stunts powers).

true. i meant, if someone (warden) saw you, you maybe lucky and avoid getting the power/stunt by getting executed.

people in my gaming rounds tend to avoid killing because the mundane consequences alone make a lot of trouble. it's not alway possible, but most of the time they self-defence others to death.
Title: Re: The Laws of Magic and Loss of Refresh
Post by: Richard_Chilton on August 26, 2010, 10:40:39 PM
So I tracked down Strange Brew, a collection with a Dresden story in it.  It might not show how Wardens act, but it shows how they are believed to act.

(click to show/hide)

Seeing that, and Mac's "Was it you?" question in Proven Guilty, says a lot about how much evidence the Wardens seem to need.

Richrd
Title: Re: The Laws of Magic and Loss of Refresh
Post by: BigMrE on August 26, 2010, 10:53:39 PM
That's why my characters tend to banish people instead of killing them. Don't like someone? Send them through a temporal rift a year or two ahead in time. Technically YOU aren not swimming against the current; somebody else is. And technically he is not swimming against; only forward.

But you are technically messing with the time stream, which is also a no-no.
Title: Re: The Laws of Magic and Loss of Refresh
Post by: JosephKell on August 26, 2010, 11:49:21 PM
But you are technically messing with the time stream, which is also a no-no.
Going backwards is a no-no.  Pushing an annoying gun in San Diego through a Nevernever portal that drops him in T.J. a week later (to him it takes a few seconds) is hilarious.

That is what Belial meant.  Not sending back in time, just getting them out of the way for a bit.
Title: Re: The Laws of Magic and Loss of Refresh
Post by: Becq on August 27, 2010, 02:17:07 AM
Regarding the question of "Does using a magic weapon to kill a human count as a 1st Law violation", I think the fact that Wardens routinely use magic swords to kill without breaking the Law to be proof positive that it doesn't -- or at least doesn't always.  I think that I would rule that it depends on the type of magic used.  Passive magic (like a Warden's blade) does not require the Will of the wielder to operate, and therefore is not a 1st Law violation.  Active magic, such as casting a fireball from an enchanted item does require the Will of the wielder to perform (Discipline roll required).

Hm.  I'm trying to recall whether Harry uses his kinetic rings against humans, and if he does so with care when he does.  I can think of all sorts of occasions in which he uses multi-ring salvos against monsters or inanimate objects, can anyone cite a case where he lays a major smack-down on a human, or considers whether or not he should?
Title: Re: The Laws of Magic and Loss of Refresh
Post by: Wyrdrune on August 27, 2010, 06:17:26 AM
just looked the swords up in YS - they have 2 powers:

- The Sword casts a counterspell of Fantastic (+6) strength, provided the effect being countered can be physically attacked or touched by a sword (ethereal chains, good; a mental binding, not so much).
- The Sword may be treated as a Weapon:6 item for one attack.

in my reckoning and my game world, a warden would be in trouble if he uses the second power to kill a human. he does not have to use it. (again it's the intentional will to risk killing a human with magic.)
Title: Re: The Laws of Magic and Loss of Refresh
Post by: Leofwyn on August 27, 2010, 12:37:40 PM
Problem is that is exactly why the swords have the Weapon:6 ability, to deliver a killing blow to a warlock quickly and prevent (hopefully) the "death curse." We also know that a warlock is still human for the laws of magic as Harry killed a Warlock in self-defense and still got "law breaker" and placed under the "doom."

Personally, I think Harry overstates the case of violating the laws as poisoning the soul.  Every evil a person does marks the soul and should be seen with the sight.  Every time a person crosses the line . . . it becomes a little easier the next time to cross that line again.
Title: Re: The Laws of Magic and Loss of Refresh
Post by: Bellum on August 27, 2010, 04:43:02 PM
As far as actual dresdenverse goes, I don't think the laws of magic are hard and fast metaphysical realities. The laws aren't even there to promote "good" wizards. They are just there to limit a wizards effect on the world in the interest of protecting the entire supernatural community.

It isn't breaking the law the effects the soul, I think. In the RPG, it seems very hard-and-fast, but in the books, it seems much more subtle. Losing yourself is often a slow process spanning years. And it isn't so much about the magic twisting you, but you twisting yourself, and taking your magic with you (it's what you believe, after all).

It's probably better to leave that to role-play. In fact, reading the RPG, the entire zero-refresh thing was a little jarring to me at first. I was like "I don't know if I like this explanation; it's a little simplistic". In the end, I think it's a good abstraction of that theme in the book, but it is what it is.
Title: Re: The Laws of Magic and Loss of Refresh
Post by: tymire on August 27, 2010, 06:09:17 PM
Actually in the first book or two he does mention that you can see (or feel) the taint on someone when they have broken a law.  This is one of the few things that has not been consistent about in the books or black council, sorcerers, etc.. would be obvious once you get close enough to them.   

Though really even if you are SUPER EVIL INCARNATE that doesn't mean that you have to break any laws.  In fact the extremely dangerous ones (i.e. the sane ones) probably avoid breaking the laws as much as possible.  Cowl would probably be a good example.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: The Laws of Magic and Loss of Refresh
Post by: Richard_Chilton on August 27, 2010, 06:56:58 PM
One thing to think about.

If the Laws of Magic were just things that people had written then you wouldn't be able to See lawbreakers.  I could be wrong, but if I recall correctly when Dresden and others viewed Molly in Proven Guilty they could see that she had broken the law.  They needed to Soul Gaze her to know how bad she had broken it, but they could look and See that she had tampered with others.

Also
(click to show/hide)

Richard
Title: Re: The Laws of Magic and Loss of Refresh
Post by: Bellum on August 27, 2010, 11:41:53 PM
I see it less as the magic changing her explicitly, and more her perspective changing over time. It's the same with anything you do, and any sort of crime. If you do it once, it's going to be easier to do it again and all that. After awhile, it has an effect on how you view things, and it changes who you are. Of course you'd be able to See that.
Title: Re: The Laws of Magic and Loss of Refresh
Post by: Richard_Chilton on August 28, 2010, 01:28:39 AM
(click to show/hide)

Every place in the books when they talk about the Laws of Magic they refer to the damage done to the person breaking the law.  In the gaming books they do the same.  Even in OW under thralls there's a note that says: "If you change others you change yourself".

Now if a group wants to change things then that's fine, but the baseline given in the books and the game is clear - breaking the laws of magic twist the law breaker.  They leave a mark on the law breaker.  Break the law once and you're always fighting temptation to break it again (even Dresden has to deal with that over killing his first teacher).  Break the law enough and you become a monster who must abuse your power.

Richard
Title: Re: The Laws of Magic and Loss of Refresh
Post by: Bellum on August 28, 2010, 02:05:55 AM
Every place in the books when they talk about the Laws of Magic they refer to the damage done to the person breaking the law. 

More specifically with the overtly damaging ones. Mind control and murder and the like. And as someone else said, these are Harry's interpretations of the laws. It's been awhile since I've read the book, but I explicitly remember necromancy being used positively, and Harry was baffled.

Though I do feel like Molly's mind control magic effected her a lot more than Harry's murder, specifically. :| Though as tymire said, it hasn't been entirely consistent.
Title: Re: The Laws of Magic and Loss of Refresh
Post by: Richard_Chilton on August 28, 2010, 02:19:21 AM
In the books they are Harry's interpretations.  In the game they are the rules as listed.

Richard
Title: Re: The Laws of Magic and Loss of Refresh
Post by: darkfire14 on August 31, 2010, 11:33:15 AM
What about killing indirectly with magic? Using magic to immobilize or knock a person unconscious and then use a mundane method to deal the killing (Like stabbing them with a sword). I'm sure plenty of wardens don't take down targets they intend to kill in a straight up fight but disable them first. Still technically you are using magic as means as an end to accomplish the kill, so should it not already be breaking the law?

As for the lawbreaker losing refresh, your arguments are compelling but I'm still iffy to take characters out of play because they broke an abstract set of laws which they as characters might not fully understand unless they're actually members of the White Council. Remember the White Council isn't everywhere (Especially in the city I'm running, Detroit which is strongly overwhelmed by Vampires, Fae Creatures and other supernaturals, the city is TOO violent for the wardens to enforce!)

Then again so far I don't have a wizards or spell casters in the party yet. Running a single player who is a True Believer and works as a freelance exorcist in the city as she was denied support from the church cause she's a woman and not willing to take the vows of the church to become a member of the church. Not that I could have one as its only at a chest-deep level (7 Refresh, 25 Skill points. Like it cause it has room for growth as I hate games where you start out at max power, it leaves no room for growth for a character, in fact the system does not allow you to get beyond the Full Immersion stage!)
Title: Re: The Laws of Magic and Loss of Refresh
Post by: Bruce Coulson on August 31, 2010, 03:15:32 PM
I agree that there's a bit of inconsistency in that it seems to be acceptable to use magic to disable people, rendering them helpless, and then using mundane methods to kill them.  But the source material is pretty clear that it's the direct use of magic by a mortal caster that leads to the Lawbreaker stunt.  (Again, if you want to change that for your campaign, that's fine; we're just discussing what's been printed as a source for the campaign.)

I tend to be lenient, in the sense that I carefully explain the consequences of doing something if it's going to lead to drastic change of the PC (such as render them unplayable).  I even allow a modification of a action, working on the assumption that the character (as opposed to the player) would be aware of the consequences (in these cases; when it will just lead to an interesting story I let things play out).

Ultimately, we're playing to have fun.  If your character becomes unplayable because of a rule you didn't fully understand or weren't aware of, generally that's not much fun.
Title: Re: The Laws of Magic and Loss of Refresh
Post by: Belial666 on August 31, 2010, 04:49:35 PM
Think of it as the Force.

The jedi are the good guys, using the Light Side for knowledge and defense. And yet, each Jedi kills hundreds, if not thousands, of sentient creatures in lightsaber combat or batting back their own weapons. They are using the Force to enhance their skills in lightsaber combat, increase their speed, even guide their blows. And yet, killing people with a Force-guided, Force-enhanced blow from a lightsaber that decapitates them or bats back their own blaster bolts is NOT using the Dark-Side.

On the other hand, the Sith use force lightning to fry opponents, force choke to strangle them, simple telekinetic blasts to throw them into walls with bone-breaking force and so on. These uses ARE Dark-Side.
Title: Re: The Laws of Magic and Loss of Refresh
Post by: JosephKell on August 31, 2010, 05:33:23 PM
What about killing indirectly with magic? Using magic to immobilize or knock a person unconscious and then use a mundane method to deal the killing (Like stabbing them with a sword). I'm sure plenty of wardens don't take down targets they intend to kill in a straight up fight but disable them first. Still technically you are using magic as means as an end to accomplish the kill, so should it not already be breaking the law?

As for the lawbreaker losing refresh, your arguments are compelling but I'm still iffy to take characters out of play because they broke an abstract set of laws which they as characters might not fully understand unless they're actually members of the White Council. Remember the White Council isn't everywhere (Especially in the city I'm running, Detroit which is strongly overwhelmed by Vampires, Fae Creatures and other supernaturals, the city is TOO violent for the wardens to enforce!)

Then again so far I don't have a wizards or spell casters in the party yet. Running a single player who is a True Believer and works as a freelance exorcist in the city as she was denied support from the church cause she's a woman and not willing to take the vows of the church to become a member of the church. Not that I could have one as its only at a chest-deep level (7 Refresh, 25 Skill points. Like it cause it has room for growth as I hate games where you start out at max power, it leaves no room for growth for a character, in fact the system does not allow you to get beyond the Full Immersion stage!)
An illusion to trick a person into running over a cliff is a First Law Violation (and possibly a Fourth Law if the illusion was in the mind instead of made of tangible light).  So is a lance of fire to detach the beam a person is dangling from (letting the person fall to their death).

In general, if the spell directly contributes to the death of a person (and it is a direct consequence that can be expected), it is a violation.  If you burn down a building in early morning (like 3 A.M.) with magic and there was a janitor sitting on the toilet, you violated the First Law.  Sure you didn't intend to kill the guy, but you felt justified to be reckless with your power and ruined a building that you didn't check to ensure it was empty.  Now if someone else rifted that janitor into the bathroom after you set the building on fire, it isn't your fault, they intentionally placed the guy there, so they violated the First Law (if they are a practitioner).

Even using magic to restrain a person so that you can lop off his head is also a violation.

Wardens are very careful to not use blocks to restrain a warlock for execution, they do employ blocks to prevent the usage of magic, but without magic, most warlocks are less dangerous than vanilla mortals (notice how neither Victor Sells or Kravos carried a gun?).  And "shutting down" a warlock's magic doesn't kill them, they could still run away.

I do think the Weapon:6 ability on the Warden Sword is kind of a bad precedent, but I think it is there more to make the sword more useful (if it was just 3 uses of a 6 shift counterspell, it is only relevant when you face practitioners, mortal or otherwise).  Without it, the item is just so corner case it might not be worth it.
Title: Re: The Laws of Magic and Loss of Refresh
Post by: Bruce Coulson on August 31, 2010, 05:50:27 PM
It's not just warlocks that Wardens have to deal with; it's quite probable that the Weapon:6 power is never used on humans.  Out-of-control vampires and nasties from the Nevernever that are rampaging across the human community fall under the Warden's purview as well.

Just because the police officer HAS a gun, doesn't mean he USES it every time he confronts someone; quite the reverse.
Title: Re: The Laws of Magic and Loss of Refresh
Post by: wyvern on August 31, 2010, 06:04:50 PM
Even using magic to restrain a person so that you can lop off his head is also a violation.

This is false.  (By which I mean: I believe this is false, and am attempting to make the point that stating opinions as facts is not particularly useful.  Please note that the rest of this post is my opinion, and you should go with whatever definition of the first law works for your gaming group.)

Why?  Basically, it totally hamstrings the wardens.  What can they do to make an arrest?  Well, they can't use magic, because if it directly leads to the arrest, well, the death of the warlock is a direct consequence that can be expected after that, even if there's an intermediate "trial" and the actual execution is done by someone else.  Just directly contributing to death can't be enough; that'd give out lawbreakers to, for example, anyone who uses magic to attack someone that's killed during combat, regardless of the source of the death blow.

The dividing line I use is whether or not there's any additional act of free will involved.
So, if there's a fey there that's sworn to kill the guy, and you restrain him, that's a first law violation - the fey killing him once restrained isn't an act of free will, and thus the death is metaphysically directly caused by your spell.
On the other hand, if you restrain a guy, fully intending to personally slit his throat once that's done - that's not a first law violation - it's "merely" murder.  Why?  Because the actual death wasn't caused by magic; it was a separate act of free will.  The GM would, of course, be perfectly justified to have various mundane complications come up from doing that, up to and including the wardens investigating you, but it's not justification for a lawbreaker power.

I'd also say that, if you kill a human using the weapon:6 power of a warden sword, that's a lawbreaker - see all the normal rules for responsibility for use of enchanted items.  But if you're using it as just its base weapon:3 really sharp sword, no lawbreaker; that's killing someone with a sharpened hunk of metal, no magic involved.
Title: Re: The Laws of Magic and Loss of Refresh
Post by: Richard_Chilton on August 31, 2010, 06:07:21 PM
Hmmm... That has me thinking... Just how many things could you tag when executing a warlock?
"Bound" and "Blindfolded" come to mind.  So does "Lining up the blade" and "positioning myself for the perfect blow", and maybe other maneuvers could be done while preparing for the fatal blow.  Weapon 3 would probably be all you need to take out someone.  

Richard
Title: Re: The Laws of Magic and Loss of Refresh
Post by: Becq on August 31, 2010, 08:44:03 PM
Lots of grey area involved in this discussion, especially with respect to the first law.  I think they way I would adjudicate this is to look at motivations to clear up the grey areas.  I think that in most cases a use of magic that leads to a mortal death falls into one of several cases:

1) Magic was used to directly end a life.
2) Magic was used in the expectation or hope that a life would be ended.
3) Magic was used recklessly without regard to the possibility that life might be endangered.
4) Magic was used as responsibly as possible, but something unpredictable within reason occured.

Generally, the first three would be considered lawbreaking, and the fourth would not, in my opinion.  So teleporting someone over a volcano or into a deadly part of the Nevernever would be #2.  Blowing up a building without even considering that someone might be there would be #3.  Tossing a fireball at a vampire just as someone teleported directly into your line of fire would be #4.  Wardens are certainly risking #2 through their work, which makes me think that
(click to show/hide)

Title: Re: The Laws of Magic and Loss of Refresh
Post by: Bruce Coulson on August 31, 2010, 09:47:48 PM
I tend to support that #1 is definitely a violation, #2 is probably a violation...and #3 and #4 are not.  It comes down to intent, which is a focusing of the will, which is the definition of magic.  In cases #1 and #2, you're intending to kill someone.  You've harnessed your will to end a life.  You've changed some essential part of you in order to kill someone with magic (with your soul, for all intents and purposes).

In #3 and #4, there is no intent.  Now, case #3 would probably get you in trouble, simply because the reckless and careless use of magic is something the Council wants to avoid.  You might even be executed for it.  But Lawbreaker?  There's nothing that says being stupid is damaging to your soul.  (To be fair, I can see the case for #3 being Lawbreaker territory.  I don't agree, but that's just my campaign.)  And #4?  No intent, and reasonable precautions taken; the White Council has to recognize that accidents and the unexpected happen, otherwise everyone would be arming up against them.
Title: Re: The Laws of Magic and Loss of Refresh
Post by: Becq on August 31, 2010, 09:59:05 PM
I could certainly support that call; as I said it's something of a grey area and up for interpretation by the GM and/or the group.

One thing I meant to add but failed to is that it should be stressed that the Laws as imposed by the Lawbreaker stunts are metaphysical laws imposed by the universe.  Whatever they happen to be (as determined by the house rules) is what they are, and they cannot be argued away, rules-lawyered (by the character), or avoided by any means.  "If it doesn't fit, you must acquit" doesn't cut it, nor does "but I didn't know that the Warden would fall into that volcano I teleported him over, and then die!  I figured he'd cast a protection spell and teleport out!  Honest!"

This is different than the Laws as imposed by Wardens.  They *can* (in theory) be convinced, tricked, or hidden from.  Maybe.  In much the same way as a snowball *could* survive in Hell...
Title: Re: The Laws of Magic and Loss of Refresh
Post by: mostlyawake on August 31, 2010, 10:51:52 PM
I've explicitly told my group that binding someone with magic and then executing them is a clear first law violation.

You used magic to aid in killing someone. 

Capturing your prey and turning them over to justice, however, is not the same.   Your intent at the time is "capture"; you aren't intending to kill them (though it may happen later, and you won't necessarily be the judge). 

Now, here's where the laws get weird... say the mage was tried and you have a kill order. Binding him to kill him - first law violation.  But what about every other spell you cast?  I mean, a spell to knock a gun away - well you're only doing it to make him easier to kill.  A spell to help you catch up with him, or hell, even track him - all intended to help kill.  Where is the line drawn? (I allow all of those things, but we've discussed this line in-game).
Title: Re: The Laws of Magic and Loss of Refresh
Post by: Richard_Chilton on August 31, 2010, 10:53:07 PM
Maybe we should break the laws of magic into two parts:
1) The metaphysics part, where if you break the law you're breaking a part of yourself and get the lawbreaker stuff
2) What the Wardens enforce.

Point one seems very cut and dried.  Point two is up for debate.  If a Warden says "I'm positive that he was breaking the laws of magic and when I confronted him he ran" then that's probably enough to sword anyone that's not on the White Council.  If you're on the White Council then you get a trial, and if not then probably not.
And by probably not I'm pointing at the part of Proven Guilty when the person answering the phone says "Um, I don't think we do that anymore" (or words to that effect - I'm paraphrasing since the book isn't handy) and Dresden has to point out that it can still happen and he wants it to happen.  I'm pretty sure that if he called in and said "I came across a warlock named Molly Carpenter who messed with two minds (files to follow) and tried to run so I shot her in the back of her skull" the response would have been "Great - we have to start making sword for you new guys so you don't have to use a gun".

At least that's how they are viewed by the magical community, to the point where practitioner start going missing / dying and there's someone wearing a Grey Cloak near the scene even Mac thinks that it might be Dresden taking care of business.

So kill someone with a spell and you get the metaphysical effects of breaking the law.  Use magic indirectly when killing someone while the metaphysical stuff might or might not happen a Warden might decide that you've broken the first law and take whatever action he feels he has to.

Richard
Edit: I have to become a faster typist.  At least one other person chimed in with the same point while I was typing.
Title: Re: The Laws of Magic and Loss of Refresh
Post by: Korwin on September 01, 2010, 10:32:14 AM
(click to show/hide)

Richard

Are you arguing for the Lawbreaker stunt?
Because what you describe, can be explained by an Aspect as well.
She was out of Fate points and couldnt resist the compell.

And I wouldnt allow to exchange an Lawbreaker aspect with an non-Lawbreaker aspect.

Title: Re: The Laws of Magic and Loss of Refresh
Post by: Richard_Chilton on September 01, 2010, 07:21:21 PM
What I'm saying is she broke the law once so was always tempted to break it again - which is more or less what the lawbreaker bit says.

If it was an aspect she had in Proven Guilty then I would argue that she had the ability to change it (based on her actions in White Night alone she would have earned a milestone) but that she was devoting her earned refreshes into wizarding abilities and could afford to buy off lawbreaker.

Richard
Title: Re: The Laws of Magic and Loss of Refresh
Post by: Becq on September 03, 2010, 04:01:19 AM
I'm considering an alternate take on the first law.  To whit: I'm thinking that for it to count as a First Law violation, there may have to be a direct cause-effect relationship between the spell in question and the death.  Predictable results from elements outside your control should be assumed as given, but your own choices seperate from the act of casting the spell do not.  Put in other words, is it possible to action of casting the spell from the action of causing the victim to die?  Put yet another way, if some other benevolently-inclined wizard had recreated your spell exactly, and with all relevant factors the same, would the victim have died as a result?  (I apologize, I'm having trouble putting this into words that convey what I'm thinking.)

So, for example holding someone in place while you shoot/stab/bludgeon/etc or allow your allies to it for you doesn't count.  Your spell may have abetted your killing, but casting the spell -- taken as an action on its own -- did nothing to directly lead to the death.  If you'd held the victim immobile until your mental stress boxes couldn't handle any more, they would have lived.  (If Mr. GoodWizard had cast this spell, the 'victim' would have been fine, because the wizard would have made a different choice involving the subsequent killing.)

This is different from the ol' "Teleporting Your Foe Over An Active Volcano" spell, because the results of the spell directly led to the death without any other action being taken.  (If Mr. GoodWizard had cast the same spell, teleporting the victim over the same volcano, the resulting death would have been the same.)

And taking the example of Warden's swords (or other enchanted items) being used to kill, nobody would be violating the Laws, as the person wielding the blade did not cast any spell in taking the life, and the creator of the blade did so completely independently of the taking of the life.

Does any of this make any sense?
Title: Re: The Laws of Magic and Loss of Refresh
Post by: luminos on September 03, 2010, 04:09:30 AM
In one of the books, I forget which one exactly, but Harry uses his force rings on some pure mortals, and he is extremely careful to make sure that he uses them non-lethally, to avoid breaking the 1st law.  This clearly indicates that using enchantments is still a violation potential.  Activating an enchantment on an item brings just as much responsibility as casting the magic directly.
Title: Re: The Laws of Magic and Loss of Refresh
Post by: Becq on September 03, 2010, 04:21:27 AM
In one of the books, I forget which one exactly, but Harry uses his force rings on some pure mortals, and he is extremely careful to make sure that he uses them non-lethally, to avoid breaking the 1st law.  This clearly indicates that using enchantments is still a violation potential.  Activating an enchantment on an item brings just as much responsibility as casting the magic directly.
Well, my theory could still hold if in your example, Harry was actually casting the spell (complete with Discipline roll to affect the target) but that the power for the spell was being supplied by the rings rather than his own reserves.  Could a non-spellcaster have activated the rings?  I'm not sure, but I don't think so.  (As opposed to the more passive impact of his duster's enchantment or of a magic sword.)
Title: Re: The Laws of Magic and Loss of Refresh
Post by: vultur on September 03, 2010, 10:53:12 PM
Well, my theory could still hold if in your example, Harry was actually casting the spell (complete with Discipline roll to affect the target) but that the power for the spell was being supplied by the rings rather than his own reserves.  Could a non-spellcaster have activated the rings?  I'm not sure, but I don't think so.  (As opposed to the more passive impact of his duster's enchantment or of a magic sword.)



I agree here. If you use Thaumaturgy Crafting to make a preternaturally sharp sword, using that to kill a mortal isn't a Law violation (but if you crafted the sword with the *intent* to kill mortals with it, that might be); but 'active' magic always is, even if it's from an item.