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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: theDwarf on July 09, 2010, 04:58:47 PM

Title: Norse Mythology and the Nevernever
Post by: theDwarf on July 09, 2010, 04:58:47 PM
I see a number of related posts about various elements of Norse Mythology:
Dwarves / Dvergar
Frost Giants
Fire Giants
Norse Trolls (Trow?)

and so on.

Given how posts get lost, and because I am thinking about a character along these lines, I figure I start a thread on the subject.

Right now I am a bit pressed for time, but will come back with a few notes in a bit.
Hopefully others will comment as well.    ;D
Title: Re: Norse Mythology and the Nevernever
Post by: theDwarf on July 09, 2010, 05:43:11 PM
First thing to realize is that in Norse Mythology there are "nine worlds":

Muspelli (Fire giants, also eldjotnar) come from Muspellheim, but a number of different types of giants come from Jotunheim.  These include risar (such as Bergrisar or mountain giants and Vedrisar), Žursar (or "thursar", which may come from "to thirst" and an example is HrimŽursar (aka, Rime (aka "frost") giants)), jotunar (possibly from "etan", to eat; thus "man-eaters", and include Bjargjotnar and Eldjotnar).  There are also giantesses known as gygjur and ividjur.  Jotun can also refer to norse trolls.

So far most are self-evident but I probably should mention that the ividjur were forest giantesses and their people were know to be able to take animal form or such.  Skorgrthursar would probably be a viable term as a generic or for the male counterpart, although I do not recall if I made it up or located it in mythology, but in any case wood giants should be able to shapeshift into a specific type of tree or animal form depending on tribe  (Fenris would be an example of a giant that is half wood-giant and thus form-locked).

Rime giants were believed to be composed for ice/frost almost entirely, possibly with bits of earth in them (thus how Ymir's body became Midgard), and were believed to sail in on ships (or icebergs) during freezing fogs or blizzards (thus why they would be covered in hard rime even if not entirely made of water).

Title: Re: Norse Mythology and the Nevernever
Post by: Remy Sinclair on July 09, 2010, 06:37:51 PM
Personally this should be in the DFRPG Spoiler Quarantine Zone. I have some input but I am afraid they would be spoilers.
Title: Re: Norse Mythology and the Nevernever
Post by: AsaTJ on July 09, 2010, 07:04:35 PM
I don't think anything he's said so far is a spoiler, but I can see your point.

I am an avid scholar of Norse mythology- it occupies a significant portion of my life, and I'm glad to help.  However, up until now it just seems like you're just posting information and I'm not sure what, if anything, you need help with.

A note on Svartalfr- there's a bit of a lore debate still going on with these guys.  It's pretty clear at this point that "Svartalf" refers to the dwarves, but there are some who believe there is a separate race supported in the sagas of "Dokkralfr," true "dark elves" that are counterparts to the Alfar.  They would have their own realm, explaining why there are attested to be Nine Worlds, and yet most sources (including your post) only name eight.  As for what the Dokkralfr would look like... there really isn't anything in the lore describing them, so I guess it would be up to the GM to fill in those gaps.

Also, about your discussion of giants.  In Old Norse, -jur (pronounced "yoor," just as a note to anyone reading) is just a suffix that takes a male noun and makes it female.  So you could add -jur to the end of any of the jotun tribes to describe a female of that race and, probably, remove it to describe a male of the gygjur or ividjur.

For example, a female of the Aesir is called an Asynjur, and a female of the Vanir is called a Vanjur.
Reversing that rule with Gygjur and Ividjur to get the male counterparts, we'd have Gygir and Ividir.
That's more of a linguistics answer than a lore-supported answer, but for a roleplaying game I'd say it's close enough.  ;)
Title: Re: Norse Mythology and the Nevernever
Post by: GruffAndTumble on July 10, 2010, 12:39:03 AM
I have some info on how Dvergar and Frost Giants (I'm not going to attempt to call them by the proper terminology with a bona fide scholar of these matters looking at the thread) fit in to my version of the Dresdenverse, but it definitely is spoileriffic, so just PM me or start a new thread to get it.
Title: Re: Norse Mythology and the Nevernever
Post by: AsaTJ on July 10, 2010, 01:02:37 AM
I'm not going to attempt to call them by the proper terminology with a bona fide scholar of these matters looking at the thread
:D

The only thing "Bona fide" about me is that I'm a narcissistic douche, so Terminology away!  XD
I actually just call them Frost jotun in my game to keep it simple.  And my explanation for them is also simple, and not even very spoiler-y.  I basically just have it that most of what the Norsemen called the "Nine Worlds" are just parts of Faerie or the Greater Nevernever Metro Area.
Title: Re: Norse Mythology and the Nevernever
Post by: GruffAndTumble on July 10, 2010, 05:03:36 AM
:D

The only thing "Bona fide" about me is that I'm a narcissistic douche, so Terminology away!  XD
I actually just call them Frost jotun in my game to keep it simple.  And my explanation for them is also simple, and not even very spoiler-y.  I basically just have it that most of what the Norsemen called the "Nine Worlds" are just parts of Faerie or the Greater Nevernever Metro Area.


Ah, it sounded to me like you were a Professor of Mythology or similar, from how you described your pursuit of the knowledge. I tend to just refer to giants and jotuns or jotnar, with an English adjective if a particular type comes up.
Title: Re: Norse Mythology and the Nevernever
Post by: gaelvin on July 10, 2010, 05:28:34 AM
In "Changes" Harry mentions that "
(click to show/hide)
" This would suggest that, at least according to JB's version of things, the nature of many of the non-god beings from Norse mythology are essentially the same as the Fae.

I figured I'd spoiler that quote just to be on the safe side.
Title: Re: Norse Mythology and the Nevernever
Post by: Drachasor on July 10, 2010, 08:23:11 AM
:D

The only thing "Bona fide" about me is that I'm a narcissistic douche, so Terminology away!  XD
I actually just call them Frost jotun in my game to keep it simple.  And my explanation for them is also simple, and not even very spoiler-y.  I basically just have it that most of what the Norsemen called the "Nine Worlds" are just parts of Faerie or the Greater Nevernever Metro Area.

I see no reason why the real world and the Fae realms couldn't be just 3 of the 9 worlds.  Perhaps the area of wild fae is a 4th one of them, perhaps not.

The Nevernever is pretty clearly a HUGE place and they've clearly stated parts of it have nothing to do with the Fae.

Hmm, the realm of Angels and similar beings could be Asgard, while the hell-like parts could be Muspellheim (or something totally different).

Anyhow, the Nevernever is very large.
Title: Re: Norse Mythology and the Nevernever
Post by: Tsunami on July 10, 2010, 11:23:00 AM
In "Changes" Harry mentions that "
(click to show/hide)
" This would suggest that, at least according to JB's version of things, the nature of many of the non-god beings from Norse mythology are essentially the same as the Fae.

I figured I'd spoiler that quote just to be on the safe side.
Problem is that the Dwarves, or Svartalf as they are called originally, are the ones who made basically all the artifacts in Norse myth. Odin's spear for example was made by Dwalin, King of the Svartalfs. I don't recall who specifically made all the others, but they include Thors Hammer, Sif's Hair, Freyr's Ship...

Legendary Blacksmiths who are vulnerable to iron... doesn't really track for me.
Title: Re: Norse Mythology and the Nevernever
Post by: Ihadris on July 10, 2010, 11:34:48 AM
One of my players is big on norse mythology and his Wizard is very much centered on that theme but Norse is one area of lore that Im quite ignorant of. This thread has already been very informative! Is there any reccomended sources of reading?
Title: Re: Norse Mythology and the Nevernever
Post by: gaelvin on July 10, 2010, 04:37:58 PM
Problem is that the Dwarves, or Svartalf as they are called originally, are the ones who made basically all the artifacts in Norse myth. Odin's spear for example was made by Dwalin, King of the Svartalfs. I don't recall who specifically made all the others, but they include Thors Hammer, Sif's Hair, Freyr's Ship...

Legendary Blacksmiths who are vulnerable to iron... doesn't really track for me.

I'm just pointing out the direction that JB seems to be going with the Books. This is for people who are concerned about the canon. For any individual game interpretation, go with what you like, of course. My own work-around for this is to say that the Legendary Dwarven Smiths forged those Norse Artifacts from mystical metals found only in the Nevernever, some of which look like iron or steel to the unschooled mortal eye. Incidentally, this works for bits of folklore from other cultures as well.
Title: Re: Norse Mythology and the Nevernever
Post by: Deadmanwalking on July 10, 2010, 05:46:36 PM
Svartalfar are very different from dwarves, mythologically speaking, and a lot closer to the Fae. I know of no reason limitations applying to them should apply to dwarves.
Title: Re: Norse Mythology and the Nevernever
Post by: AsaTJ on July 10, 2010, 06:00:45 PM
One of my players is big on norse mythology and his Wizard is very much centered on that theme but Norse is one area of lore that Im quite ignorant of. This thread has already been very informative! Is there any reccomended sources of reading?

Snorri Sturlusson's "Prose Edda" is essentially "The Beginner's Guide to Norse Lore."  Depending on the translation, it's also not terribly difficult to understand.  I use the Jesse L. Byock translation, which is more plain English than some of the other ones.

If you want more in-depth from there, you can check out the Poetic Edda.  It's much longer and much more difficult to understand without context.  I'd go with the Carroline Larrington translation for a beginner, but I ultimately much prefer the Lee M. Hollander one- he tries to preserve the poetic flow of the pieces, whereas Larrington just translates the lines dryly to try to make them understandable to English speakers.
There are probably half a dozen other translations, but those are the two I can vouch for.

If you still want more after that, "Saga of the Volsungs" is definitely the next one to check out.  It's the story of Sigurd the Dragon Slayer.  In Germany it is known as the Nibelungenleid and was the inspiration for Richard Wagner's Ring Cycle.

Beyond those three, there are dozens of Icelandic sagas worth a read.  Njal's Saga and Egil's Saga are two of my favorites.

Deadmanwalking- Svartalfar actually are dwarves, and don't let White Wolf tell you any different.   :P
Title: Re: Norse Mythology and the Nevernever
Post by: theDwarf on July 10, 2010, 09:28:30 PM
One of my players is big on norse mythology and his Wizard is very much centered on that theme but Norse is one area of lore that Im quite ignorant of. This thread has already been very informative! Is there any reccomended sources of reading?

Thank you, as that is one of the reasons I started it :)

I know some, but I know there are always others who know more than I and a communal thread helps me immensely  8)
Title: Re: Norse Mythology and the Nevernever
Post by: theDwarf on July 10, 2010, 09:32:34 PM
I have some info on how Dvergar and Frost Giants (I'm not going to attempt to call them by the proper terminology with a bona fide scholar of these matters looking at the thread) fit in to my version of the Dresdenverse, but it definitely is spoileriffic, so just PM me or start a new thread to get it.

OK, I will start a second thread in the Spoiler section (if no one beats me to it) for any spoiler information on Norse.  :)
< Edit: set up in Spoiler section ... post away there! :) >


Originally started it here for more traffic and I thought we could avoid spoiler info longer, but I actually started working up Norse Dwarves before I <listened to> the most recent book ...




... ok, so maybe I am a "Martian", but I can listen to books and work at the same time, something I can't do while reading.  ;)
Title: Re: Norse Mythology and the Nevernever
Post by: Deadmanwalking on July 10, 2010, 09:35:21 PM
Deadmanwalking- Svartalfar actually are dwarves, and don't let White Wolf tell you any different.   :P

I was going with my own knowledge of Norse Myth, actually. Unfortunately, Norse myth (while one of my favorites) isn't my area of specialization, and I was mistaken (I seem to be having that sort of day...)

You are entirely correct, and I apologize for the error.
Title: Re: Norse Mythology and the Nevernever
Post by: AsaTJ on July 10, 2010, 09:42:45 PM
No apologies needed if no harm was done.  That's the way of the Norsemen.  ;)
Title: Re: Norse Mythology and the Nevernever
Post by: theDwarf on July 10, 2010, 09:44:21 PM
Quote from: AsaTJ
Deadmanwalking- Svartalfar actually are dwarves, and don't let White Wolf tell you any different.   :P

Or TSR.

Dwarf, Zwerg, Zwerge, Dvergar, Druegar, Drow, Trow, and half a dozen other words all mean "Dwarf" in the Norse sense.

Way I understand it is that the "God - Giant" and "Fair Elf - Dwarf" dichotomies are indicative of different points of view of the Axemen invasion. The germanic Axemen, who were short, dark, and with dark hair, invaded areas inhabited by tall, fair peoples probably ethnicly related to the Finnish, Lapp or Helvetii.  The two sides told stories and from the Axemen's point of view it was the Gods (them) versus giants, and they feared reprisals, and from the native point of view it was the fair elves (them) being invaded by the shorter dark elves (dwarfs).  Many of the stories likely come from that tribal movement and the current Danes, Swedes and Norse the result of the two mixing.  An oversimplification at best, but enough for people to get the picture, even why the Dwarfs are superior smiths.  The full legends formed after years of intermixing and the references became crossed and entered into similar stories.

I could also discuss Wayland Smith and Deadelus, but hey, myths and legends get around quite a bit.    :D
Title: Re: Norse Mythology and the Nevernever
Post by: theDwarf on July 10, 2010, 09:45:52 PM
No apologies needed if no harm was done.  That's the way of the Norsemen.  ;)

And there is no reason why they could not be separated in a game or game world.
More names = more unique critters from a game design standpoint!  ;D
Title: Re: Norse Mythology and the Nevernever
Post by: Da_Gut on July 10, 2010, 10:01:19 PM
Actually, the dwarves being vulnerable to the metal that they work with would certainly be possible. Humans work with deadly substances all the time. It might even be a point of pride with the weaponsmiths.
Title: Re: Norse Mythology and the Nevernever
Post by: theDwarf on July 10, 2010, 11:38:58 PM
Actually, the dwarves being vulnerable to the metal that they work with would certainly be possible. Humans work with deadly substances all the time. It might even be a point of pride with the weaponsmiths.

But that is more consistent with English & French stories of the Fae/Fairies rather than the Norse stories of the Dvergar, who, along with other Svartalfar such as goblins, trolls, and the like, had problems with sunlight instead (and which is why I keep using the term Dvergar for the Norse Dwarves).

Some Svartalfar would turn to stone permanently, some while daylight hit them, others would burn and blister.  Many were the color of pooled blood.
Title: Re: Norse Mythology and the Nevernever
Post by: AsaTJ on July 11, 2010, 02:49:28 PM
other Svartalfar such as goblins, trolls, and the like, had problems with sunlight instead

As far as I know, actually, trolls are usually lumped in with jotun-kind.  (The ugliest among them, as they are usually described.)  And I've personally never heard mention of the term "goblin" in any Norse saga.
Title: Re: Norse Mythology and the Nevernever
Post by: theDwarf on July 11, 2010, 03:41:33 PM
As far as I know, actually, trolls are usually lumped in with jotun-kind.  (The ugliest among them, as they are usually described.)  And I've personally never heard mention of the term "goblin" in any Norse saga.

The Sagas are no longer the entirety of the mythology.
There is also myths from various countries once dominated by the Norse, such as the Orkney Islands, from where the term "Trow" comes from.
Trolls may be the equivalent of giants, but are also often smaller in size.
Then there are the Vitterfolk, which are human-sized (huldrfolk, etc).
Once we hit the era of the fairy stories trolls range in size from that of giants to as small as dwarves.
Elfquest in fact blurs the line between Dwarf and Troll IIRC.


As for goblins, that is technically a French or Anglo-Norman term IIRC, but I have run across some comments as to the nature of orcneas (Beowulf).  They are not defined, but the translations I have found seem to distinguish them from giants.  In my own mind they become something similar but smaller, possibly "Hell-corpses" as defined by another analysis I ran across.  It is from Tolkien for one where the terms Orcneas (orc) and goblin cross and often become one.
Remember that "spirit", "jinn", "demon", "fairy" and even "goblin" have dual-purpose in that they can mean a generic or a specific and that their meanings can cross unless one is speaking purely in terms of a specific resource (like a specific story, such as a saga or the Dresden Files, but even then sometimes terminology "evolves" (like we see in Tolkien)).
Title: Re: Norse Mythology and the Nevernever
Post by: AsaTJ on July 11, 2010, 04:53:07 PM
The Sagas are no longer the entirety of the mythology.
They are not, but my area of study is fairly strictly Scandinavian- i don't really branch out as you have into Norman/Orkney/Manx mythology, which is very cross-pollinated with Celtic and Brythonic elements.

Trolls may be the equivalent of giants, but are also often smaller in size.
Yes, in the Norse tradition they are described as smaller and uglier than other jotun, but they are a jotun tribe nonetheless.

Then there are the Vitterfolk, which are human-sized (huldrfolk, etc).
Indeed, the Vitter/Vetter/Vaettir (depending on dialect) are the closest thing in Norse lore to what the Fae are portrayed as in Dresden, though in reality they are more akin to the land spirits described by the Native Americans.  The Vaettir were tied to places and physical features.  Interestingly enough, 80% of the adult population of Iceland still claim to believe in Vaettir- even the Christians- and the nation's government has actually diverted highways so as not to disturb them.  :)

Elfquest in fact blurs the line between Dwarf and Troll IIRC.
XD
Maybe so, but I would not rely on that as a reliable source for studying mythology- interesting a world as it may be.

Orcs are mentioned in Anglo-Saxon sources, but even that is just on the very edge of my area of study, to be honest.  As far as Norse tradition goes, I have not heard mention of orcs or goblins.
Title: Re: Norse Mythology and the Nevernever
Post by: theDwarf on July 12, 2010, 05:46:06 AM
They are not, but my area of study is fairly strictly Scandinavian-

Well, I stated "Norse" because most people tend to associate certain mythology with the Norse even though there is strong evidence it was common amongst virtually all the Germanic tribes and at least a few of the Slavic tribes.  Tiwaz (Tyr) as the chief god (Odin took over later, probably during or just before Danelaw IIRC), Wotan, Donnar (and equivalents) and so forth.  If I were to state "Germanic Mythology" or "Slavic Mythology" people would have no clue as to what I was talking about :( and the Norse myths from the sagas make up the largest known core (albeit other, older, records also exist).

In many ways it is the "strictly Scandanavian" myths that were older Germanic myths "corrupted" by contact with the natives, but that contact did create a lot of tales, and probably more interesting ones.  ;)
Title: Re: Norse Mythology and the Nevernever
Post by: AsaTJ on July 12, 2010, 05:53:46 AM
Yeah, I'm aware.  I just happen to be very interested in myths from a very specific region in a very specific time period.  I know that they ultimately came from older myths from other regions.  Heck, there's good evidence that Odin and Hermes/Mercury- who couldn't be less alike on the surface- were evolutions of the same Proto-Indo-European god.  I just choose to study a very small sliver of the expansive geographical and chronological scope of mythology.
Title: Re: Norse Mythology and the Nevernever
Post by: Tsunami on July 12, 2010, 07:43:30 AM
They are not, but my area of study is fairly strictly Scandinavian- i don't really branch out as you have into Norman/Orkney/Manx mythology, which is very cross-pollinated with Celtic and Brythonic elements.
And here comes my pet peeve...

Brythonic IS Celtic.
Celtic is NOT necessarily Brythonic.

Just had to clear that up. ;-)
Title: Re: Norse Mythology and the Nevernever
Post by: AsaTJ on July 12, 2010, 09:11:52 AM
And here comes my pet peeve...

Brythonic IS Celtic.
Celtic is NOT necessarily Brythonic.

Just had to clear that up. ;-)
Ah, I suppose you are right.  I just tend to separate out the Scottish/Irish tribes from the Welsh/Britannic tribes for no particular reason.  And also for no particular reason I think of the former as being "The Celts," though that's not really accurate.  I just tend to think of a Pict or a Gael when I hear "Celtic," and not a Welshman or a Brit.  :P  *Shrug*
Title: Re: Norse Mythology and the Nevernever
Post by: Tsunami on July 12, 2010, 09:42:27 AM
Ah, I suppose you are right.  I just tend to separate out the Scottish/Irish tribes from the Welsh/Britannic tribes for no particular reason.  And also for no particular reason I think of the former as being "The Celts," though that's not really accurate.  I just tend to think of a Pict or a Gael when I hear "Celtic," and not a Welshman or a Brit.  :P  *Shrug*
We can't be certain that the Picts were Celts... maybe they were, maybe they weren't. We know to little about them to decide accurately.
But everything that points to the them maybe being Celts, actually points to them being Brythonic Celts rather than Gaelic ones :-)


Boy... am I in a nitpicking mood today *g*