Sorry for the necro, but I didn't see a point in starting a new thread for this question.He may still be a pure mortal from a flavor point of view.
Where does one draw the hard line between pure mortal and supernatural. (The easy answer is as soon as a single refresh is spent on powers, but that doesn't satisfy mes since many IoP's shouldn't be considered powers [in my opinion].)
Does an item of power change the fundamental being of a pure mortal to supernatural?
Swords of the Cross being my main concern here... However, many gadgets like Batman would carry could easily be called IoP's and I'd still call him a pure mortal.
Thoughts?
many gadgets like Batman would carry could easily be called IoP's and I'd still call him a pure mortal.
No Powers (includes IoPs) -> pure mortal bonus
1 or more powers (includes IoPs) -> No pure mortal bonus
Imho there's really nothing more to say about it.
All good answers. I can't fault any of them.
I suppose my irritation regarding this is when people talk about the limits of a pure mortal. it seems to me that there are very few (pure mortals) within the system then; at least from a playable standpoint.
I always had the feeling "Pure Mortal" had more to do with supernatural heritage and free will than carrying a magical item. Though if we're simply talking refresh spent on powers then I suppose I can't argue hte definition.
However, when commnents or arguements are made that a pure mortal cannot fight a loup garou or something, people are likely only refering to people with just stunts; no IoP or powers.
I would hazard that a Knight of the Cross is only better equiped to fight a loup garou offensively, becuase he/she is no better off defensively. The arguement or comment is then flawed greatly.
He may still be a pure mortal from a flavor point of view.
But from a Rules perspective he is not. And the refresh bonus is simply an mechanic in the rules meant to balance power-users and non-power-users.
No Powers (includes IoPs) -> pure mortal bonus
1 or more powers (includes IoPs) -> No pure mortal bonus
Imho there's really nothing more to say about it.
it seems to me that there are very few (pure mortals) within the system then; at least from a playable standpoint.
However, when commnents or arguements are made that a pure mortal cannot fight a loup garou or something, people are likely only refering to people with just stunts; no IoP or powers.
A PM could fight the complete heck out of a loup garou, so long as they had more than a handfull of inherited silver. Think Murphy with a Desert Eagle .50 cal and a clip full of inherited silver slugs. All it takes is a good sized silver tea set or a drawer full of forks and spoons. That's what, one fate point spent, maybe two?
Meh, I still feel that the flavour of a PM fighting a Loup Garou can be wrong. Murphy wouldn't be able to slug it out and win by herself, she still needed loads of mystical back-up. Or, as described somewhere else, a very lucky and precise shot with a .50 cal anti-vehicle sniper rifle. I mean, the thing's got Supernatural frickin' Speed, if you don't do it in one shot, you're screwed: either it guts you or it gets away. Again, this is flavour/logic versus mechanics, but I just feel the Loup Garou even being mentioned should have PCs and players alike peeing their pants :p
Oh, absolutely. It had Harry all but peeing his pants and he usually doesn't have the good sense to be that afraid. I think the sheer number of people who died in the precinct house was plenty of evidence that nobody should be blase about tackling one, no matter their template. I just disagree that supernatural templates are inherently superior in combat to a well thought-out and played PM.
Take Harry and Marcone. Yeah, Harry can call up a wall of lava but in the same scene Marcone blew the entire freaking cavern up. It's all about being prepared and using what you have access to to the best of your ability. PMs have quite a knack for thinking up new and creative ways to destroy the heck out of things and they have the fate points to spend to actually succeed if they're smart about it.
Flat footed in their Spiderman jammies, yeah, I'd rather have some evocation handy. Prepared and with a good Resources/Contacts/etc... though, PMs do just fine.
With a long enough lever you can move the world. The challenge isn't in realizing this, it's in making the lever.And finding a place to stand.
When you talk about what's possible and you get too far afield from what's probable, at some point you're effectively just changing the topic.
With a long enough lever you can move the world. The challenge isn't in realizing this, it's in making the lever.
Loup-garou aren't really that tough.
If Dresden were better optimized, he'd have had little trouble with it.
How is that, considering Loup-Garou are all but immune to magic?I kind of agree with Sanctaphrax here - not that loup garous aren't tough but that they shouldn't be all that big a challenge for a prepared wizard. Dresden was simply unprepared during the first encounter and then at a big disadvantage (and relatively unprepared) at the second.
How is that, considering Loup-Garou are all but immune to magic? Dresden was already optimized in the best way any character could be to deal with a Loup-Garou. He had a preesstablished Aspect of inherited silver. The only thing that CAN stop it.
Suppose you are an 8-shift earth evoker. You can easily drop an 11-shift evocation (as a rote, if you want) if you are willing to take a bit of harmless backlash.
So you do that. 11-shift evocation block against all physical action, in-story justification of manipulating gravity to hold the Loup-Garou helpless in mid-air.
Next exchange you extend the block for 8 more exchanges.
Then you take your time to dig a really big hole, with magic.
Then you put the Loup-Garou in the hole.
You can bury it there if you feel inclined. Or you can just leave it. Either way, it's basically neutralized.
It's been a while since I read the appropriate book, but I think that this should work.
Harry has a worthless power that costs him 1 refresh (Lawbreaker) and a stunt that isn't related to fighting. Plus, he uses multiple elements. He is not an optimized combat character.
Since Belial666 isn't around, I have to do his job.
I don't actually advocate the use of characters like this outside of examples.
And I question the validity of that maneuver. (EDIT: Plus, a heat beam requires no oxygen and is just as lethal as a fireball.)
But it is winning a fight to trap your opponent in a hole. If you want, you can come back the next morning when he's human and shoot him. Or just let the dirt suffocate him when he's human again.
I wonder if the latter method is Lawbreaking.
The limits of elements have been debated to death. But let me point out that the character in this example actually evokes two other elements to the tune of 5 shifts, maybe more. He's hardly helpless when not using his specialty.
A fire-using channeler is worse at using fire than a fire-using evoker, by the way. The only exceptions are
a) if he focuses entirely on offensive or defensive evocation, he can outdo the evoker very slightly at it at the cost of being rather bad at the other type.
and
b) when there is very little refresh available to spend.
And finally, I challenge you to find a situation where Spirit evocations are useless. That element does basically everything. It kinda bugs me.
Spirit's the trickiest of the bunch, no doubt, but it's still plenty vulnerable. Its shields are the de facto standard but (unless they're a veil rather than a shield) they almost never stop light (such as Light Amplified by Stimulated Emission of Radiation) and probably don't stop air, heat, or massive electrical discharge.Depending on the Shield. I could see ways for an Spirit/Force shield to protect against those things.
They definitely don't help when The Building Is On Fire.Use Spirit to go to the NeverNever.
They can't keep you from becoming Magically Grounded by the running water from a nearby burst pipe/fire hydrant.Not even water can do that, right?
There's not much spirit can do to directly counter increased or decreased gravity.Use Spirit to backtrack the magic to its source?
Depending on the Shield. I could see ways for an Spirit/Force shield to protect against those things.
Use Spirit to go to the NeverNever.Thaumaturgy, not evocation (YW282). Not bad thinking though. Air or water to smother the flames or fire to directly draw the heat from the flames (yeah, it's a bit kemmlerian in application but I might be able to be talked into it because of multiple uses by harry to freeze water with a fire spell). Spirit evocation though? Can't think of anything for either spirit or earth off the top of my head that doesn't involve ripping yourself an escape route.
Not even water can do that, right?Earth can. Once it's in place, an earth wall is just plain, ordinary dirt.
Use Spirit to backtrack the magic to its source?Again, Thaumaturgy, not evocation (Divination, YW275). And I'm not even sure what good being able to locate the source of magic would do to get you down or unpinned/squashed dead . Being able to retaliate with Earth solves the issue on either count. Air could be used to actually fly in low-G but I wouldn't allow shifts for duration or anything beyond extremely simple actions. Fire would be only as useful as water or spirit though in that it could really only be used to block LoS until the duration shifts ran out or attack in return at some serious negatives once the Squashed/Floating aspect gets compelled.
I see going into the NeverNever when the whole room is on fire as a terminally bad idea. Remember, the place you go to on the other side reflects where you are now. So it would probably be even hotter there.
Rip open a door in the nevernever and punt the loup garou through.
Depends on how quick the shift in symbology* affects the destination.
*Yes, I know it's symbolism. My name's not Dollypoposkallius.
Ghost Story spoiler:(click to show/hide)
However, it is not said if it crosses the boundary into the Nevernever. Personally, I would say not immediately. However, if a building was set on fire and a lot of people died tragically, then that site would probably burn for some eternity in the Nevernever...
I tend to agree. I'd give it at least a day and maybe a week to settle into its new location.
Interesting side question. Does the shift occur immediately or would there be massive chaos happening with any doorways that were opened before it settled on a new fixed location?