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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Korwin on April 06, 2010, 09:44:15 AM
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I'm looking at the Catch Rules at page YW 185:
So Fairies would get:
- ...but usually doesn’t carry on them (like cold iron), you get a +2...
- ...almost anyone with an awareness of the supernatural knows about the Catch ... you get a +2
for an +4 Catch.
Is that right?
Because Jenny Greenteeth OW 151 has an +1 Catch...
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Catches can't reduce the cost of all your Toughness powers put together below -1, Jenny has only Inhuman Recovery (a -2 Power), so no Catch she took, no matter how severely limiting, could ever be worth more than +1.
That said, the Cold Iron Catch appears to be worth +3 (see YS, p. 371, 385. Or OW, p. 42-44, 48-49), though there's occasional disagreement with that (specifically, both Faerie Ladies have it as only +2). I suspect the latter is a clerical error.
I don't know how they arrived at +3 as the specific number, but it looks solid and feels about right. Possibly it's based on the fact that, frankly, not everyone does know about Cold Iron's effect on he Fae. It'd be easy to find in research, but you probably need to be in the magical community to know it off the top of your head. Add in the fact that unlike vampires, Fae are so varied it's hard to know what you're fighting, and the +3 starts to make alot of sense.
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Possibly it's based on the fact that, frankly, not everyone does know about Cold Iron's effect on he Fae. It'd be easy to find in research, but you probably need to be in the magical community to know it off the top of your head.
From page YW 185:
If almost anyone with an awareness of the supernatural knows about the Catch or could easily find out
So that would be still +2.
But that:
Add in the fact that unlike vampires, Fae are so varied it's hard to know what you're fighting, and the +3 starts to make alot of sense.
I could see.
On the other hand, Red Court Vamps have the Flesh Mask, Fae have Clamour.
Should the catch be generally one step lower if the creature has means to disguise its nature?
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It's not so much if you have a means to disguise your nature, as the fact that, say, Gruffs, Sidhe, and Trolls look nothing alike, while all Red Court Vampires look identical. That means that even if someone you're fighting has fought the Fae before, unless they were Fae of your specific variety, they need to do research on you before they know your vulnerabilities since, (like Harry during the very start of Small Favor) they have no idea that the goat-thing that attacked them was Fae.
And honestly, I have a certain amount of faith in the designers of the game, and they appear to have decided it's +3. That allows any Fae who wants to have Inhuman Toughness AND Recovery for a single point of Refresh. That's more than enough for me.
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It's not so much if you have a means to disguise your nature, as the fact that, say, Gruffs, Sidhe, and Trolls look nothing alike,
But if you dont see their real lookalike anyway. Why should it make an difference how they really look?
Shure an Wizards who is ready to use the sight, could see the real creature behind the clamour/flesh mask. But thats not exactly an reasonable tactic in an fight.
while all Red Court Vampires look identical.
Like beatifull humans? Not shure how difficult it is to destroy the fleshmask. (Beside sunlight)
That means that even if someone you're fighting has fought the Fae before, unless they were Fae of your specific variety, they need to do research on you before they know your vulnerabilities since, (like Harry during the very start of Small Favor) they have no idea that the goat-thing that attacked them was Fae.
Maybe I am biased from the books. But I got the impression, if you are not shure what it is. Use steel...
And honestly, I have a certain amount of faith in the designers of the game, and they appear to have decided it's +3. That allows any Fae who wants to have Inhuman Toughness AND Recovery for a single point of Refresh. That's more than enough for me.
I'm not really disagreeing with the +3. But I would think the Red Court would warrant the same threatment. (or does he get it allready?)
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Possibly it's based on the fact that, frankly, not everyone does know about Cold Iron's effect on he Fae. It'd be easy to find in research, but you probably need to be in the magical community to know it off the top of your head.
Yeah. I don't think we assumed that every Dick and Jane on the Paranet knows about the cold iron thing. So +1 for that, and +2 for availability.
I'll flag the Faerie Ladies, but it might already have been flagged. Thanks for the catch.
-Lenny
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Yeah. I don't think we assumed that every Dick and Jane on the Paranet knows about the cold iron thing.
You can find out about the whole cold iron thing on wikipedia, of all places.
And every gamer who has ever played in a WoD Changeling game knows about it.
How more commonly known can one get? ;)
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I'll flag the Faerie Ladies, but it might already have been flagged. Thanks for the catch.
-Lenny
Check out the Typo thread, I've got a couple of posts listing stuff like that in the Our World character entries. And you're very welcome.
I'm not really disagreeing with the +3. But I would think the Red Court would warrant the same threatment. (or does he get it allready?)
Their Catch is actually only +2. Presumably because "sunlight and holy stuff" is harder to come by than Cold Iron. And the additional belly weakness requires knowing exactly what you're doing. And because the whole Dracula thing (while everyone knows it) includes lots of misinformation when dealing with the Red Court.
And wikipedia is still research. The test is if all people just know it, and can therefore use it casually in the midst of their first fight with the creature sans research. Gamers might, as might superstitious people (since it's in the mythology), but Joe the Minor Talent who's never done any research on the Fae? Probably not.
Obviously, people can know about Catches that require research, presumably with a Lore roll to imply they'd run into it in their reading, but not everyone does. The Black Court, well, everyone knows that shit. That's the line between +3 and +4.
And my point about the Fae looking different stands. If a person starts moving with superhuman speed and strength and attacking people, well, one of the first thought people have (particularly these days) is likely vampire. Giant ogre-thing? Not so much the average person's idea of a fairie.
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But you get an +2 if you need only a little research.
Black Court get an +4 Catch?
There goes my idea, that +3 is the maximum for an Catch...
No the Black Vampire at OW 83 only has an +3 Catch, so maybe if the material is common (+2) and its easy to know (+2) you get only +1 for the second?
And I read more Fae stories (where they have a Iron weakness) than classical Vampire stories.
The Vampire stories I red, there are many without the classical weaknesses (Interview with an Vampire, etc.)
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But you get an +2 if you need only a little research.
Nope, +2 is if you know it off the top of your head.
Black Court get an +4 Catch?
There goes my idea, that +3 is the maximum for an Catch...
No the Black Vampire at OW 83 only has an +3 Catch, so maybe if the material is common (+2) and its easy to know (+2) you get only +1 for the second?
The Black Court have the intervening variable of only 4 points of Toughness powers, meaning it's impossible for their Catch to be more than +3.
And I read more Fae stories (where they have a Iron weakness) than classical Vampire stories.
The Vampire stories I red, there are many without the classical weaknesses (Interview with an Vampire, etc.)
Me too, but I'm not sure we're representative of the population as a whole.
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Sorry have to disagree again:
If almost anyone with an awareness of
the supernatural knows about the Catch
or could easily find out
directly from page YW 185...
The Black Court have the intervening variable of only 4 points of Toughness powers, meaning it's impossible for their Catch to be more than +3.
Argh, was only looking at the catch.
Is there any Creature with Catch +4?
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Sorry have to disagree again:directly from page YW 185...
No, we don't you're right and I'm wrong on that one.
I'd still argue that you need specific wizard level research materials to know that the creature in question was Fae, making it effectively as hard to find out. While everyone and their mother in the magic community knows a Black Court Vampire when they hear about one.
Argh, was only looking at the catch.
Is there any Creature with Catch +4?
Aside from a Stacked one on Physical Immunity? Not that I've found.
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You can find out about the whole cold iron thing on wikipedia, of all places.
I know you winked, but just for posterity and archiving, in case anyone cares:
Sure, but look at that quote and what surrounds it on links.
"In terms of protective charms, cold iron is the most familiar, but other things are regarded as detrimental to the fairies: wearing clothing inside out, running water, bells (especially church bells), St. John's wort, and four-leaf clovers, among others. Some lore is contradictory, such as Rowan trees in some tales being sacred to the fairies, and in other tales being protection against them."
(From 'cold iron' entry)
""Cold iron" is sometimes asserted to repel, contain, or harm ghosts, fairies, witches, and/or other malevolent supernatural creatures... Iron, particularly "Cold iron", was employed as a protective substance or charm against faeries. In various folklores, Supernatural creatures are held to hold an aversion to iron or even be harmed by the touch of iron. Conversely, amongst Asian traditions, there are tales of ironworking fairy."
"In mythology, the term "cold iron" is sometimes only applied to cold-worked iron of meteoric origin, or having fallen from a meteor, as such metal has never been heated by human agency. Mined iron must be smelted first, so such iron may or may not be considered "cold iron", depending on the source consulted."
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Does that really make a reliable jump to a solution for when a thing that's vaguely monstrous (which you probably can't identify from a casual encounter, BTW) is about to eat your face? 'Cause, hey, according to your "research", if the fae is from Asia, the iron thing may not work. And hey, what is actually cold iron anyway? Does my chef's knife count?
Misinformation, rumors, and contradictory information can damage the "availability" of a fact just as sure as being sequestered in a library can. It's easy to find just about anything out. It's harder to find out if anything is verifiably true.
(Side Note: The Stoker's Dracula thing is specifically called out in the setting as being practically a manual for the killing of Black Court vampires. So a concession has to be made there to what the Jim sayeth. Otherwise, I'd probably put vampire weaknesses in the same category as the factual efficacy of cold iron - material commonly written about it, with not a whole lot of it reliably lining up and therefore damaging the potential to verify anything except through detailed supernatural research. Hence, +1.)
-Lenny
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(Side Note: The Stoker's Dracula thing is specifically called out in the setting as being practically a manual for the killing of Black Court vampires. So a concession has to be made there to what the Jim sayeth. Otherwise, I'd probably put vampire weaknesses in the same category as the factual efficacy of cold iron - material commonly written about it, with not a whole lot of it reliably lining up and therefore damaging the potential to verify anything except through detailed supernatural research. Hence, +1.)
-Lenny
Yeah but who knows that Bram Stockers book is a manual? Those who allready know the Iron weakness of fairies?
Another thing, the RPG is written in-Game. So it exists In-Game? So there is an manuall for fairies (and Red Court, etc.) too... ;)
And an question, how common are fairies? (In the books they are so common, that Murphy has Iron Bullets [Small Favor] in her gun)
But in generall?
At the moment it would make sense for an Char. to have Iron weapons as an precaution.
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I think the bullets you are referring to are stell jacketed rounds (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full_metal_jacket_bullet). In the spirit of the game I would consider any iron based metal to be treated as "the bane".
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Well non-standard bullets...
A full metal jacket (or FMJ) is a bullet consisting of a soft core (usually made of lead) encased in a shell of harder metal, such as gilding metal, cupronickel or less commonly a steel alloy.
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Yeah but who knows that Bram Stockers book is a manual? Those who allready know the Iron weakness of fairies?
Another thing, the RPG is written in-Game. So it exists In-Game? So there is an manuall for fairies (and Red Court, etc.) too... ;)
Enough people know Bram Stoker's Dracula is a manual to have caused the near-extermination of the Court. So sayeth the Jim. Beyond that, I got nothing else; the Jim sayeth, I abide. :D
The in-world status of the game past the draft the RPG represents is uncertain. The implication we gave is that there's still a draft left to go, where all the names need to be changed to protect people and certain paragraphs need to be redacted. So we don't, in fact, know whether the RPG even got out. And even if it did, assuming the RPG exists when you're playing the RPG is... ow, my brain. :D
At the moment it would make sense for an Char. to have Iron weapons as an precaution.
I agree! But that character probably has Lore, or someone with Lore, to tell them to do so. Or a library. Or whathaveyou. I mean, you're a PC, right? It's your job to know these things or learn 'em quick, otherwise you wouldn't be the star.
The costs for The Catch are more player-facing than they are anything else. So for me, +1 for "accessibility" means that you, as a PC, are not going to have every Tom, Marsha, and Brent in the campaign trying to kill you with cold iron on sight, but you can count that if you're going up against a wizard or someone routinely capable of doing research or identifying your nature, they'll probably have taken precautions.
-L