ParanetOnline
The Site => Site Suggestions & Support => Topic started by: Seriphina on December 10, 2009, 05:19:18 AM
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Things seem to be getting a little heated in a couple different sections of the boards. I've heard that some people are starting to delete their accounts because they feel as though their concerns are not being heard.
I'm wondering if perhaps the Moderators could just use a little more help, a couple new compatriots to help keep the peace, a few more eyes and "ears" as the case may be. If for no other reason than to make the boards more enjoyable for you, as well as other posters.
Not saying that you aren't doing your jobs, because from what I can tell you are doing your best. I just wondered if you might like some help to shoulder a little of the "burden". ???
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I just had this image of Jayne moderating...
"Don't hurt, just scare him."
"But pain is scarey."
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The primary help we require is for people to report the incidents using the convenient "report this post" button, not sit around imagining that for some reason our Moderator Sense will start tingling and we'll swoop in and save the day. No number of moderators, small or large, will ever be perfect at the job without forum members on the ground reporting problems, just like a police force would stop fewer crimes if nobody ever called 911.
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Take it from someone who used to moderate a forum that was deliberately slanted toward the less-than-polite: After awhile, you stop being able to tell the mod sense tingle from the kind of tingle that needs a shot of penicillin to clear up.
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fter awhile, you stop being able to tell the mod sense tingle from the kind of tingle that needs a shot of penicillin to clear up.
I used to have a keyboard that was almost that nasty. I had to throw it out when the keys started jamming.
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I just had this image of Jayne moderating...
"Don't hurt, just scare him."
"But pain Payne is scarey."
Fixed it for you
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Fixed it for you
Why thank you! ;D
Now, if somebody up and writes a "Ballad of Payne, The Snarker of Canton", then I shall run quite mad with power.
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Why thank you! ;D
Now, if somebody up and writes a "Ballad of Payne, The Snarker of Canton", then I shall run quite mad with power.
Why wait? I already run quite mad without power.
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I've heard that some people are starting to delete their accounts because they feel as though their concerns are not being heard.
Not to be the hard ass here, but if people are doing this... maybe they are taking the forum too seriously? The Mods are all volunteers, and really don't have to ask how high....
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Pumpkins are fruit....
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Did you just squash the thread?
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Not to be the hard ass here, but if people are doing this... maybe they are taking the forum too seriously? The Mods are all volunteers, and really don't have to ask how high....
To delete accounts? Probably. To scale back to just lurking or leave without deleting the account? Nope. After someone's concerns are ignored or pooh poohed often enough, they'll leave.
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Not to be the hard ass here, but if people are doing this... maybe they are taking the forum too seriously? The Mods are all volunteers, and really don't have to ask how high....
I for one am glad someone more, beloved*, brought that up. I was thinking it, but I don't want my thoughts on the matter getting twisted...again.
*I truly mean this, I luvs you too!
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I dunno about Beloved, but thanks. Older, more experienced... a Mod will take actions that the person reporting the offense will never hear about. Why? Because it is always best to criticize in private. You really can't expect a Mid to say to you, "Yeah he stinks, I smote him for you, good!" Even if they really do think he stinks and they smote him good.
Moderate. Moderate. Not extreme, partisan or radical.
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Not to be the hard ass here, but if people are doing this... maybe they are taking the forum too seriously? The Mods are all volunteers, and really don't have to ask how high....
I never could get my head around arguing heatedly about a third party's imaginary friends. I'll chew to the bone on social or political issues because they can affect my real world life, but the rest of it is sort of like "Can the Death Star beat the Enterprise". Then again, I usually lurk on the story/book threads, occassionally mumbling "ah, uhm-hmm" to myself.
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There have been moments, when I first joined the board, and at a couple of other junctures when my debate team training kicked in, and then I realized that the other parties were actually taking stuff to heart. It was a point where I needed to say, Oh my, I have to turn it off.
If a mod *cough Mickey cough* had decided to open up with big ol' can of whoop-ass on me, or to say to another poster that I was being a jerk, he would have been within his rights and he could have scored brownie points with other posters.
He didn't do that at my expense. I was grateful.
Because of the obvious absence of some antisocial posters, I feel certain that when someone hits the Moderator tilts the Mods will act appropriately. We just don't see what they are doing behind the scenes, on their own fun time. For free.
I can understand that some board members get very frustrated when they feel they are not being paid attention to, but if that is seriously the case, a PM should be sent, to all the Mods. I've felt invisible more than once in my life.
We also have to realize that The Mods don't want to generate bad feelings toward the Author whom we all love.
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Did you just squash the thread?
Heh. The pun never entered my mind at the time but I likes it!
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Don't mind me, I'm out of my gourd.
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I asked the Mods, privately, repeatedly how to get DragonFire to stop stalking me without causing an issue. This was after trying confronting him via PM, ignoring him, and trying to deal with him in the threads. None of the Mods ever answered me. None of the Mods ever answered my inquiries into whether or not it was okay to open a chat room, or whether it was okay to advertise the chat room on the forum. As a matter of fact, every PM I have sent the Mods since I "donated" my art, only to have that ignored, too, has been, quite simply, ignored. Regardless of how seriously you take stuff here, I guess sooner or later you get the hint that your presence is no longer desired.
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First off, sending a message like board member x is stalking me is basically a request to ban that person. Banning is done through a quorum of mods, and while you can report a person for breaking a post, a general pm like that is in bad form, and should have been ignored.
As for donating art for sale, there is all kinds of legal issue involved with taking you image and selling products based on it. Fred and Jim are the only ones who would even be qualified to respond to that, and frankly, they have more important things to do in their day jobs to be able to respond to a proposal sent in a non-professional fashion like a pm.
Not responding to either message is not a hint that your presence is unwelcome, but you taking it like that and airing your dirty laundry here is in bad form.
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While I can't address anyone else's experiences with PMs, I have to say that while not every single one of mine was answered directly, enough have been answered, and the board moves smoothly along well enough that I feel the mods do due diligence.
Sometimes with people like DF you have adopt a policy of ignoring them, and their posts.
Stalking is a harsh word. Did he mess with you off of the boards? Or did he post in a lot of the same threads you did here, posting after you with rude or abrasive comment? If the former, that is not a matter for board mods, but for your IP and DFs. If the later, did you try a policy of pretending he didn't exist?
There are three people on the board who I never post until at least six posts after their last post. One person who I never post in a thread that they started. Adopting these personal mechanisms have really helped me keep a few very abrasive (to me) people from being any problem at all. I am certain that there are people on the Boards who think I am abrasive and avoid me! This might be a strategy others could try if they find themselves in a place where the board is not the happy place they want it to be for them.
There are also threads in which much fun is had and no controversy arises, if a poster starts feeling beaten upon, it is always safe to withdraw to these places. You are still in the community. You can still have fun.
But by continually engaging with people with whom you have a problem, you are creating an environment that perpetuates that cycle, and the Mods can't really help with that.
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I asked the Mods, privately, repeatedly how to get DragonFire to stop stalking me without causing an issue. This was after trying confronting him via PM, ignoring him, and trying to deal with him in the threads. None of the Mods ever answered me. None of the Mods ever answered my inquiries into whether or not it was okay to open a chat room, or whether it was okay to advertise the chat room on the forum. As a matter of fact, every PM I have sent the Mods since I "donated" my art, only to have that ignored, too, has been, quite simply, ignored. Regardless of how seriously you take stuff here, I guess sooner or later you get the hint that your presence is no longer desired.
1) Notice who is still on the boards, and who is not.
2) I save the PMs I receive (sadly, they system doesn't auto-save PMs we send). We've had entire discussions about things. You even thanked me at one point and said that upon rereading posts you saw where I had tried to warned you about something.
3) I answered about the chat-room...it's cool, it's just not involved with the site.
4) Aside from a piece you did of me, I personally haven't seen any of your art.
5) While I can't speak for the other, once a situation is cleared up, unless a pattern emerges, I put it out of my mind. For instance, I did not recall you were the one who made the other adorable Toot Toot costume for the DBPro contest until I went back to check my PMs, another series where we had many back and forth PMs. (I also don't remember the incident Blaze mentioned above with her.) What this boils down to is that grudges aren't held, and if your presence was no longer wanted here, #1 above would not apply.
6) Like I told a friend of yours (and looking at my PMs, I see I told you as well), we don't see everything on the boards. We actually likely don't see MOST of what's on the boards, and as Iago said, rely on the Report to a Mod button. As such, other folks getting away with murder is because we are unaware of it (or it's being misread by the offended party, which happens). However, just because they did it and got away with it...due to the mods being unaware...is not a pass for someone else to do the same. When we're made aware of it, we do something.
7) There's no favoritism or persecution. People who get perma-banned, aside from trolling accounts or spammers, are given many many chances, and people we like...some of which are even personal friends or on the Beta list with us...get slammed to the mat if they break the rules. Furthermore, if any of the mods step out of line, the other mods would do the same to them.
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Regarding the standard currently attempted to be upheld -
does a post like Aine's count as reasonable to bring to the attention of moderators as being in bad form?
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Honestly, I don't read most of my PMs. I don't have the time. It's largely pointless to use that as a method to contact me.
You want action taken by the mods, use the report to moderator button. It's what it's for, and as Mickey's noted, it's a primary method for us to remain aware of issues on the boards at large.
Anything having to do with fan-created works that are derivative of Jim's solely-owned intellectual property, I ignore. Legally speaking, it's safer for me and for Jim to remain ignorant of their existence than to be made aware of them.
My moderators don't persecute. They execute, after reasoned discussion that is held away from the public view for reasons that should be obvious to anyone.
(I'm also blessed with a crap memory. I had to do some digging to remember that there had been problems with Aine in the first place -- and that was just a week or so ago! So a long term campaign of persecution is flat out impossible. I can't do it. I barely remember who anyone is!)
Nor do I make any special effort publicize the specific decisions made unless they attend to matters of forum policy rather than actions against specific people. We take mostly quiet police actions to keep the forum healthy and to address issues with individual members. This isn't COPS with "Bad Boys, Bad Boys" blaring in the background; it's law enforcement, and as I've noted, requires folks to pick up the phone and dial 911.
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Anything having to do with fan-created works that are derivative of Jim's solely-owned intellectual property, I ignore. Legally speaking, it's safer for me and for Jim to remain ignorant of their existence than to be made aware of them.
Regardless of anything else, I would just like to clarify: I was asked to donate my art so that the sale of the shirts I made would help support this site. After many email exchanges with iago and Pris discussing the particulars, I sent them in a format which would simply require them to be uploaded to cafe press.
I didn't volunteer my art; I didn't just one day PM iago and Priscellie and say, "hey, I have art, would you like it?" I was asked. And then nothing was done with it.
And Blaze? I understand your point completely. I tried ignoring. However, after a while, when ever single post you make that says "the sky is blue" is answered with "Your (sic) WRONG! The sky is obviously purple! The end." and you retreat from every board this keeps happening, well. What is the point of coming to a book/author forum where you can't talk about the books without this happening? And if you argue, the thread gets locked. Or you get in trouble for arguing. Yeah, stalking is a harsh word, but when that's what it feels like and every time you ask for help, no one does anything? Maybe I do take this stuff too seriously, but, eventually, enough is enough.
And as for bad form, I did not say the Mods did anything wrong or should do anything differently. I am just stating my experience. What would be good form? Another PM? Anyway, enough people have deleted their accounts recently or just disappeared quietly off into that good night. I am just clarifying my experience and why, every day for the past five days, I have had the "delete your account" screen sitting open on my computer.
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What would be good form? Another PM?
Good question. IMO made more difficult to answer by the disappearance of Hot Topics.
Anyway, enough people have deleted their accounts recently or just disappeared quietly off into that good night.
I think the most important thing is not to kill anyone's joy at being here.
I am just clarifying my experience and why, every day for the past five days, I have had the "delete your account" screen sitting open on my computer.
I hope you find the fun to make it all worthwhile.
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Yes, I dropped the ball with regards to your illustration. How is that relevant to this discussion? See Mickey's #1. Your concerns were heard and acted upon, whether the result was visible to the public or not. No board member's concerns are ignored.
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At the risk of sounding like a suck up....I'd like to say I think the Mods all do a great job. My concerns have always been answered quickly, and while I have not always gotten the answers I've wanted, I have gotten them. So thanks to all you guys, even if you did get paid it wouldn't be enough money for this. :)
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Regardless of anything else, I would just like to clarify: I was asked to donate my art so that the sale of the shirts I made would help support this site. After many email exchanges with iago and Pris discussing the particulars, I sent them in a format which would simply require them to be uploaded to cafe press.
I didn't volunteer my art; I didn't just one day PM iago and Priscellie and say, "hey, I have art, would you like it?" I was asked. And then nothing was done with it.
Ah, that was you? (See? Crap memory.)
The last six months have featured the birth of my daughter, a drastic drop in my free time, and the implosion of my mail client -- I've gone back to reading gmail via the web interface. I've tried to keep that shirt design on my to-do list (I didn't recall the files being immediately ready to just-be-uploaded, but it's been a while), but I just haven't managed to get to it.
But like Priscellie said, that's completely tangential to the topic.
Edit: Dug the email thread back up after several searches that didn't turn 'em up. Photoshop files -- I'm gonna need to go through 'em and tweak.
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I will say that I'm always reluctant to hit report to moderator because one of the few times I did- ages ago- Jim responded, and I felt like a complete and total tool for bugging him. I realize that's my issue, because he's all grown up and stuff and can choose to ignore those things. Hell, Iago's so busy, I feel bad for bugging him, too. So I only hit the report to mod when it's really, really severe (generally). Maybe there are others who feel the same way? I didn't even think about hitting it on some of the issues I had in the Spoilers board until one of the mods (ashton?) pointed out that there's no way for them to know about issues unless we point it out.
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I will say that I'm always reluctant to hit report to moderator because one of the few times I did- ages ago- Jim responded, and I felt like a complete and total tool for bugging him. I realize that's my issue, because he's all grown up and stuff and can choose to ignore those things. Hell, Iago's so busy, I feel bad for bugging him, too. So I only hit the report to mod when it's really, really severe (generally). Maybe there are others who feel the same way? I didn't even think about hitting it on some of the issues I had in the Spoilers board until one of the mods (ashton?) pointed out that there's no way for them to know about issues unless we point it out.
I know that's what I've always done. I try to work out any problems at the time they happen, like two rational grown ups. I've only hit the Mod button when people have gotten nasty and personally abusive. I know we are supposed to let the Mods know when there are problems, but I've found most of the time just trying to nicely talk about it being a problem solves it and then there is nothing to report since it stops.
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I will say that I'm always reluctant to hit report to moderator because one of the few times I did- ages ago- Jim responded, and I felt like a complete and total tool for bugging him. I realize that's my issue, because he's all grown up and stuff and can choose to ignore those things. Hell, Iago's so busy, I feel bad for bugging him, too. So I only hit the report to mod when it's really, really severe (generally). Maybe there are others who feel the same way? I didn't even think about hitting it on some of the issues I had in the Spoilers board until one of the mods (ashton?) pointed out that there's no way for them to know about issues unless we point it out.
It's a common enough thread that I think we'll be making some more explicit statements to the forum that the button needs to be used.
I also need to look into whether or not we can insulate Jim from getting those notices without eliminating his moderator power. I'm not sure there's a way to do it that wouldn't also strip away his ability to get notified of replies to threads he wants notification of.
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Incidentally, the T-Shirt designs are now up:
http://www.cafepress.com/jimbutcher
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I know that's what I've always done. I try to work out any problems at the time they happen, like two rational grown ups. I've only hit the Mod button when people have gotten nasty and personally abusive. I know we are supposed to let the Mods know when there are problems, but I've found most of the time just trying to nicely talk about it being a problem solves it and then there is nothing to report since it stops.
I certainly don't object when folks can work things out. :)
What bothers me is folks saying that they have persistent issues which they haven't reported but are upset we haven't fixed.
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Incidentally, the T-Shirt designs are now up:
http://www.cafepress.com/jimbutcher
F***IN' A! MINE!
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F***IN' A! MINE!
Yeah, sorry about the delay. I got the images less than 3 weeks before my daughter was born (or thereabouts), so things were already getting crazy, and then my mail client collapsed on me later, so it was nominally on my to-do list, but not easily found.
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Yeah, sorry about the delay. I got the images less than 3 weeks before my daughter was born (or thereabouts), so things were already getting crazy, and then my mail client collapsed on me later, so it was nominally on my to-do list, but not easily found.
Fret not, Fred. I think if anyone qualifies for excusal, it would be you. And it's here now, innit? Better late than never. :)
(http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p9/SheckyX/headbangers.gif)
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Just in time for the holidays!
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"And if you argue, the thread gets locked. Or you get in trouble for arguing. "
This may be the crux of the matter...this isn't an argument board. It's a discussion board. You can disagree without it being an argument. Respect of the other posters (this should apply to those who have to read your post, even if you can't manage any for the person who's behaving badly towards you). If someone else acts poorly, that doesn't give you license (on this board) to sink to their level in response.
"Yeah, stalking is a harsh word, but when that's what it feels like and every time you ask for help, no one does anything?"
Again, things were done. I'm sorry that it wasn't as quick as you'd like, but he was given the same set of chances to correct himself as you were (and that everyone gets if they're not a spammer or a troll). Notice he ran out of his chances must faster than you did, and is no longer here. You are. Ergo, people did something...and furthermore, for it to get to this point, people HAD been doing things, in the past.
On a side note, the reason this is not an argument board is because of Jim's wishes. If nothing else, please respect the author whose board you are on. (Not to mention Iago, who runs it and, far as I know, pays for it.)
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Iago wrote it up:
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,14964.msg685845/boardseen.html#new
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Thanks, Fred!
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It's a common enough thread that I think we'll be making some more explicit statements to the forum that the button needs to be used.
I also need to look into whether or not we can insulate Jim from getting those notices without eliminating his moderator power. I'm not sure there's a way to do it that wouldn't also strip away his ability to get notified of replies to threads he wants notification of.
Giving someone the moderate board privilege seems to include them in getting the emails, from my playing around with my board. There might be a mod that you can add on that would do what you want. If you're interested, I can comb through the SMF forums and packages to see if I can find one.
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Giving someone the moderate board privilege seems to include them in getting the emails, from my playing around with my board. There might be a mod that you can add on that would do what you want. If you're interested, I can comb through the SMF forums and packages to see if I can find one.
I'm always interested in not having to do research. :)
Fred
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2) I save the PMs I receive (sadly, they system doesn't auto-save PMs we send). We've had entire discussions about things. You even thanked me at one point and said that upon rereading posts you saw where I had tried to warned you about something.
Mickey, there's an option in your profile to auto-save outgoing PMs. Just FYI.
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And I know this is double posting, but I have to say something.
There's a ton of posters on this board. And 4 mods, including Iago. Who all have lives outside this board. Folks, you're not going to get a personal response to every "report to moderator" request. To think you will, or that you somehow deserve one because you have over 20 kajillion posts is rude. Not going to happen. And it's not wrong. I've had a mod flatly discount my report once as stupid. Did I get offended? Nope. Just learned that person and I have different reporting standards.
Do I like how everything on this board goes? No. Of course not. Do I respect that the mods have a hard job and do the best they can in dealing with Lord knows how many different personalities? Yes. I think everyone should do the same, and increasingly, I get the sense that they're not.
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I'm always interested in not having to do research. :)
Fred
Fred- responded by PM.
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Well I'm glad to know that some resolution, (and Aines tee-shirts) came out of this thread. In some little way I can feel as though I've helped. :)
I do have a question. And I'm not sure where to put it, so I will put it here.
About said tee-shirts. Is there any way to get larger sizes? Us fat people don't fit real well in a XL. Some plus sizes would be really nice.
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Seriphina- there are plus sized options. You just have to scroll down the list... they come in the v-neck and the scoop neck.
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Seriphina- there are plus sized options. You just have to scroll down the list... they come in the v-neck and the scoop neck.
Depends on the shirt; IIRC, some of them didn't have plus-size options.
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Fred- responded by PM.
Got it. Thanks! I think you're right that we can wait a bit.
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Depends on the shirt; IIRC, some of them didn't have plus-size options.
Yep. That's the solution: pick a different shirt (I put the image on a lot of them!) that supports plus size.
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Yep. That's the solution: pick a different shirt (I put the image on a lot of them!) that supports plus size.
*cracks whip* Break's over! Back to work! :D
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I don't know that I've ever reported anything to the mods here. I might have. My process is usually to decide if it's something I can handle myself (and not by starting a word-war; that's not handling a problem, that's escalating it) and then to decide if it's someone I can ignore on my own.
I have, in the past, bemoaned the lack of an Ignore feature on here. But in the end, the people I most wanted to ignore aren't around anymore, and I am. Sort of "The best revenge is to live well" writ small, I guess.
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Seriphina- there are plus sized options. You just have to scroll down the list... they come in the v-neck and the scoop neck.
Awesome, that's what I get for not looking too closely. I look foolish. Not that it's hard for me to do that. :)