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McAnally's (The Community Pub) => Author Craft => Topic started by: blgarver on September 12, 2008, 02:33:01 PM
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So I'm in the final battle scene of this monstrosity of a fantasy/horror novel I've been working on for almost 3 years now. This thing began as a one page romp, just to break the monotony of my office job. It spread like a rash, and now I'm 400+ pages into it, and nearly finished.
I'm losing steam though. Because i was writing by the seat of my pants, many of the scenes seem forced to me. It is very apparent that I had no idea where the story was going. I like the overall story, and some of the characters are good, but the book is so meandering and disjointed that it's just depressing to think about.
My plan is to use this as a rough draft/treatement, and go back after for a restructuring and a serious rewrite. I feel I should finish this thing, get the rough draft to its completion, but I'm so disinterested in the thing as it exists right now. At this point I'm just putting words on the page to get the thing done, and everything is coming out half-assed and lame.
I'm sure everyone has been in a spot like this before. What did you do? Finish the crap draft just to tie up the lose ends before the rewrite? Or set it aside and begin restructuring instead of putting a lot of time into the few final chapters?
I'm trying to get this thing to a stopping point by the beginning of October so i can have that entire month to write a treatment of my Nano novel.
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Slash your way to the end, edit later... Don't even look back or the crap will catch up with you! Run bl, run and write as fast as possible!
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So I'm in the final battle scene of this monstrosity of a fantasy/horror novel I've been working on for almost 3 years now.
If you're that near the end, finish it. There are times when it's worth restructuring in the middle, if you realise you've gone six chapters in the wrong direction so what you might do after that won't make any sense with what you need to do before, but this does not sound like one.
My plan is to use this as a rough draft/treatement, and go back after for a restructuring and a serious rewrite. I feel I should finish this thing, get the rough draft to its completion, but I'm so disinterested in the thing as it exists right now. At this point I'm just putting words on the page to get the thing done, and everything is coming out half-assed and lame.
I won't say everyone gets that, because I can't actually speak for everyone. (some of the time). But most writers get that. World Fantasy Award winners get that - I have heard this directly from two of them - both before and after the award, and for some of the most brilliant books in the genre, so think of it as a phase you will pass through, and with time and work you'll come to a point of seeing what you like about the thing again.
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Finish the manuscript before rewriting.
Let the manuscript age for several months before re-writing.
Finish the manuscript before rewriting.
Write another manuscript before editing the first.
Finish the manuscript before rewriting.
A useful writing tool in a big old bottom drawer where you can stash finished manuscripts while they ‘age’. But most importantly, finish the manuscript before rewriting.
(Yes, I do have very firm opinions on this. ;) )
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Finish it. I will also read it over if you want since I am just about done with the last Dresden book.
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Finish it! Put it aside for a while and let the thing settle. Even if it is truly awful, in time it may become amusing, and if it isn't truly awful, it can be resurrected and rewritten or may even have value in the parts department.
HUGS
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Okay. I will finish it.
*brushes off knees*
*pulls self up by the bootstraps*
Onward into the fray.
Thanks guys.
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Ive been there with fanfics. Where i simply gave up on them. I have one unpublshed fanfic that is pure gold imo and i didnt have the ending for a kong time. what i did was when i wanted to stop because of The Block i put the folder a way for a couple months. When the story was out of my head i read it again going over and removing or changing somethings. By the time i reached that part i had a decent. A profesional mite be able to pick 6ut where the writing changds but honestly i think its a great epic fic. Hells i even had sequels(it would have been a trilogy) in my head but they stayed there. Perhaps if i ever publish the fic ill write them but i know theyl suck. perhapsyou should do much the same. Set it aside, clear your mindp and go back at a later time.
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i'm sorry, i have to disagree with everyone else on this one. if you didn't know where the story was going to begin with, all finishing it would do is create a lot of stress and hard, painful, tedious work for you that may change DRASTICLY and turn out to be useless later becuase of the direction your story goes when you re-write. i think "pushing through" will also make you hate the book that much more when you read through again.
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i'm sorry, i have to disagree with everyone else on this one. if you didn't know where the story was going to begin with, all finishing it would do is create a lot of stress and hard, painful, tedious work for you that may change DRASTICLY and turn out to be useless later becuase of the direction your story goes when you re-write. i think "pushing through" will also make you hate the book that much more when you read through again.
Depends entirely on how you work and how your story isn't working. you seem to be assuming that if the story goes wrong at point X, everything after point X will need reworking once you fix point X. Believe me, this is not always the case.
the way I work, I can easily know what the next big climax point is, 50,000 words and ten chapters away, but not how I will get there from here. Sometimes I get the right scenes in the right order between here and there and that's fine. Sometimes it's almost right and I can go on to there and then go on from there and come back and fix later because I know it won't change anything past that climax point.
Besides, blgarver said he was in the final battle scene, and that there was a heck of a lot of work to do anyway; and if you've written 95% and know you'll have to rework 80% of the thing, writing the last 5% has as the worst case result you now have to rewrite 85% of the thing. On the other hand, it has the best case result of "Oh. This is how I want the thing to end. To make this scene work I need to introduce Anna's grandmother in chapter 5 and have her show up at the party in chapter 23, fit in a conversation in which someone mentions in passing that they have five-shot repeater crossbows in the Scarlet Empire so that the assassin can have one at the end and that can go in the discussion in the barracks in chapter 18 where they are showing off their magic swords, and oh, that's what the damned goat was doing, so have it be unobtrusively in the background more often." then you go back and do half a dozen single-line insertions at the right points and never tell anyone you didn't mean it that way all along. Some things you don't learn until you try writing them, and this can include bits of resolution that you do not know until that point you need to set up.
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It would be a shame to just throw away something you work on to 90%. If the person did uhat theyed regret it later amd would lose faith in theyre ability to write. They realy just need to clear theyr mind of the story. Like "forget it" so they can see what went wrong. When i did my rewrite several times i thougt "why did i write that that way" or "that is so OOC of that person to say/do that"
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I think all my stuff is drek, it probably is, however, I'd rather keep going, learn a few things, and when I'm done with the story, I go back and tune it up. And I'll continue to do it until I'm either happy, or can think of nothing else.
Dont' stop, keep moving, and learn from your steps.
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...a lot of stress and hard, painful, tedious work ...
In my opinion, that's pretty much what writing is -
Every published writer I know (and I know several) has a few finished but un-publishable early manuscripts stashed away somewhere. Writing is a learning experience and pushing through to the finish is an enormously important lesson.
Come to think of it, I know an awful lot of unpublished writers with several unfinished manuscripts each and no completed works.
I think there may be a connection.
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First drafts are always crap, don't let that discourage you.
Some writers like to outline (thoroughly) a story to the end before writing the first scene (and when they do write the story down, they don't even have to do it chronologically, because that's how well they outline plot and chapter beforehand). Others like to plunge right in with only a fuzzy idea of who their main character is and one inciting incident / object / setting, whatever. They like to discover their characters and plot while writing. When they found their them, yes, they will have to go back to the beginning and add a few (OK, a LOT) of clarifications. There's nothing wrong with either method. The writer automatically chooses the method that works best for him.
As I'm of the latter type, I have to
- revise the beginning. Does the story goal expressed in my first-draft beginning have anything to do with the finale? Turns out, in my first draft the story goal wasn't expressed until 2/3 through! I had to move it up front. It changed a lot, but not as much as you might think. Yes, the characters suddenly knew things in chapter one that before they learned only very much later, but most of the action still worked.
- go over each scene and revise for scene goal (does the scene have a scene goal that moves the plot forward toward the finale? If not, revise until it does) and focus within each scene (does the scene stay on topic regarding the scene goal).
- revise for theme. Does every scene aid toward the novel's theme?
- revise for character. You know your characters pretty well by know (better, imho, that from an outline.) You've found his voice, completed his character arc. You know how he was and how the story changed him. Now make his voice and personality consistent throughout.
Pacing, clarity, coherance, consistency -- the time to work on these things is once you've finished your first draft. First draft is where you jot the plot down in a hurry and sketch/get to know your characters. Also, I find that it helps me to reread my favorite how-to's on creative writing before I revise to remind me off what pitfalls and issues I have to look out for during revision, and to get into the mood.
So don't worry about those vague/forced scenes right now. Finish the novel. Take a break. Then revise. Or workshop your novel.
There is one exception in my experience, where the just-push-on technique doesn't work, that is when I have maneuvered myself into a corner, for example my characters into a situation that I don't see any way to get them out off. "I have a plot problem" has become a well-known explanation amongst my friends and family for any lingering foul mood on my part. At least twice I found that my premise/a crucial point of magical system contradicted a later development, so that the whole trilogy (work of oh, 8 years) seemed to be about to collapse. No matter how much I started at the screen, there was no solution to be found. It took me two full months away from the screen (with lots of mulling over the problem with help of pen and paper and a lot of going back to the drawing table) until I found a solution. Some things can't be forced. (But most things in a novel can be made to look plausible in the end ;o)
Anyway, best of luck!
P.S.
"a lot of stress and hard, painful, tedious work ..."
In my opinion, that's pretty much what writing is.
I second that. Many people tell me that if I fail to get published (after trying for many years) that I could just go on writing as a hobby, "to express myself" or "release my creative energy" as if it where some sort of refreshing psycho therapy. It's the opposite. It's stressful. It's draining. Painful. It's alternately exhilarating ("I just had a great idea!") and causing deepest depression ("I have a plot problem!") It's a permanent emotional rollercoaster ride.
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I second that. Many people tell me that if I fail to get published (after trying for many years) that I could just go on writing as a hobby, "to express myself" or "release my creative energy" as if it where some sort of refreshing psycho therapy. It's the opposite. It's stressful. It's draining. Painful. It's alternately exhilarating ("I just had a great idea!") and causing deepest depression ("I have a plot problem!") It's a permanent emotional rollercoaster ride.
a lot of people don't realize that, though. My friends from college, nice kids, kinda pseudo hipsters, would look at me and wonder why I'd be exhausted, and then scoff when I told them I wrote a chapter
It's grueling, it's not like it's free writing, where you just pour everything out onto paper or processor. You are creating, it's taxing, difficult, and oft times life consuming.
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Why do we write? Because we must. It doesn't matter if no one reads it at all, although that would be nice. I do believe that writer's are driven to write. It's in our genetic makeup. I do believe that the roller coaster ride can be less traumatic than Suilan describes and a sense of humor and friends always makes the difficult times more enjoyable. That and a mood control drug...
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First drafts are always crap, don't let that discourage you.
Some writers like to outline (thoroughly) a story to the end before writing the first scene (and when they do write the story down, they don't even have to do it chronologically, because that's how well they outline plot and chapter beforehand). Others like to plunge right in with only a fuzzy idea of who their main character is and one inciting incident / object / setting, whatever. They like to discover their characters and plot while writing. When they found their them, yes, they will have to go back to the beginning and add a few (OK, a LOT) of clarifications. There's nothing wrong with either method. The writer automatically chooses the method that works best for him.
I'm not at all sure I believe in putting the theme in deliberately, fwiw. That way lies Atlas Shrugged.
- go over each scene and revise for scene goal (does the scene have a scene goal that moves the plot forward toward the finale? If not, revise until it does) and focus within each scene (does the scene stay on topic regarding the scene goal).
the thing is, too much of this and it feels contrived, like an exercise. If you wasnt your characters to come over realistic, they have to do real-people things, such as be distracted by food and pretty people from the pursuit of the plot. real people don't stay 100% on topic, because it is exhausting.
Each scene has to do something, sure. That something does not always have to be primarily plot development.
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I'm not at all sure I believe in putting the theme in deliberately
I believe in discovering your theme as you write. You have discovered your theme if you are able to tell someone (who hasn't read your work) in one sentence what the story is about. You need to find your story's theme before you can write a query. Knowing what your story is really all about also helps with revision.
the thing is, too much of this and it feels contrived, like an exercise.
Or like a Harry Dresden novel. ;) They're my favorite examples to show how scene structure works. (See Jim's journal on scenes and sequels.)
So no, I wouldn't agree that having a scene goal for every scene and then staying on focus makes your writing feel contrived. As with every writing technique, of course it can be done badly.
Anyway, my point was that the time to take care of all these things is AFTER finishing your first draft.
I know writers so obsessed with perfecting their early chapters that they never get anywhere near the end. That's a waste of time, imho, because even with the most detailed outline you cannot foresee everything that happens in your story, so once you're finished you will have to go over the entire manuscript scene by scene in any case.
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Yeah, all of this stuff is encouraging. It will be a big lesson to just finish. Throughout this long road of the WIP I've taken two hefty breaks to write a couple of short stories just to feel the relief of finishing something. Both stories turned out great and simply finishing them was a great refresher and motivator.
So I have to imagine finally finishing this novel will be a huge sensation of accomplishment for me, even if the first go-round is crap.
I like the idea about reading my fav how-to's before I rewrite. Stephen King's "On Writing" is probably my favorite one, because it's more of a "why-to" than a "how-to". I found that book to be one of the most inspiring things I've ever experienced. That and the simple books like "101 Things Every Writer Needs to Know" or this one similar to it that slips my mind at the moment...I can't even remember the author's name right now...grrr.
Anyway, thanks for the input guys. I think I just needed to churn the butter a little and step away from my despair and frustration of the muddled plot. I've also been reading a new (to me) author named Patrick Rothfuss. His writing is the kind that is impossible to read without having a flash fire of inspiration spark in your brain. Reading him is helping tremendously.
Thanks again guys!
BLG
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I know the feling of wanting to say somethings DONE. Most of my fics are oneshots because i get tired of the story when writing chapter stories. You ougta post a sample online on one of th writing siter to get input from strangers. If you ask at the end for people not to flame it you mite get some constructive critizism. As well as positive words. Theres nothing like geting the ego fed.
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Hellz yes.
You know what? Even if it's *not* crap, finishing is one of the hardest things in the world to do.
Steven Brust, rule #9: Remember that getting to the end of your first novel is the most difficult thing you will ever do as a writer, whether it publishes or not. Once you’ve done that once, you can do it again. Get cocky about it.
So true.
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I believe in discovering your theme as you write. You have discovered your theme if you are
able to tell someone (who hasn't read your work) in one sentence what the story is about.
I do not believe that every worthwhile story can be summed up in one sentence, put it that way.
You need to find your story's theme before you can write a query.
I'd say this is provably untrue.
Or like a Harry Dresden novel. ;) They're my favorite examples to show how scene structure works. (See Jim's journal on scenes and sequels.)
To my mind, that works in some of them a lot better than others, and is noticably jerkier in the books where there's more than one plotline going on which don't have much in common and the transitions between them sometimes don't flow overly well; much of why Death Masks is my least favourite (apart from Fool Moon, because the communications failures in that get me down) is because it feels to hop back and forth from "this scene is doing this for the Denarians/Shroud plot" to "this scene is doing this for the Ortega plot" in ways that grate.
So no, I wouldn't agree that having a scene goal for every scene and then staying on focus makes your writing feel contrived. As with every writing technique, of course it can be done badly.
I think the problem with it as a notion for fitting with my own working methods is that if the characters are alive and the story is working, it will surprise me within every scene; trying to focus that on a goal kills it.
I know writers so obsessed with perfecting their early chapters that they never get anywhere near the end.
True, and that's a failure mode.
On the other hand, there are successful published writers out there who cannot revise once they have written a scene, and have to think it through enough to get it right first time; and that approach does not seem, on the whole, to produce less good or less successful books, so if that happens to be the kind of writer you are - I'm not, myself - I would worry that too much emphasis on "you can always fix it in revision" could kill one's ability to write.
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Two bits worth from Brett Anthony Johston...
"It's for the reader to define the theme." :-) On reflection, I deferred to his wisdom.
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Two bits worth from Brett Anthony Johston...
"It's for the reader to define the theme." :-) On reflection, I deferred to his wisdom.
I like Iain Banks' standard reply:
"What's (book X) about ?"
"It's about (y) hundred pages long."
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I think I agree with Azj, if a story isn,t working, try something new. Why hack away at something you know is no good? you can cry "experience" all you want, till the cows come home. But no matter how much you experience "crap", you don't get experience on doing things right. for example I am writing a novel, and got all the way to the first big plot point, and then realized that my writing sucked. certain scenes/chapters were good. but as a whole it was sliding into awful. so, I scrapped it and started over. by analyzing what sucked, I realized what to do. after a stressful group of months I dragged my story onto its feet and now its running, with only a stumble or two on the way.
basically its like this, I agree you can't learn to ride a bike without falling down, A LOT, but its no use to keep pedeling once you hit the ground. same with writing. once you suck, stop, pick it up, and figure out what you did wrong.
by the way I do not suggest wearing a helmet while writing, while riding I maintain helmet use to be a good idea.
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heh, i came across the first fanfic i ever wrote the other day. IT is pure crap. i hate how bad my writing was back then. but as much as i hate it, ill never throw it away because it's the first recreational story i ever wrote.
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I'm plowing through the end, guys. I'm so close it would be dumb to not finish. I'm within 3 chapters of finishing. If I was ten chapters, I might just stop and let it rest, and comb through it and pinpoint the wrong turns and start over. But I'm a week's worth of writing from finishing it. It's salvagable. This is basically the fleshing out/outline. I know the story now, I know what I want the characters to be (and more importantly, what I want them NOT to be), and I can nail the plot down to a handful of major points. So this whole thing was good to drag the story out of me. Considering it was only supposed to be a one page romp just to write something when I was bored at the office one day. I'm pretty happy with what has grown from it.
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heh, i came across the first fanfic i ever wrote the other day. IT is pure crap. i hate how bad my writing was back then. but as much as i hate it, ill never throw it away because it's the first recreational story i ever wrote.
The question is, 'what did you learn by finishing it that you applied to your next one?' :-)
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Well my second story sucked too. And its cuz i was making fun of the anime dub. My first saga is my first decent story. Thats why these 2 orange folders are my most priyed possesions. Realy the onlything BAD about them is i used the dubs character names. Once i publish them on FF.net i plan to use theyr real names.
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I think i learned to think thru my stories. Like let the plot play out in my head. If i cant end it i drop it. Unfortunately i suffer from attacks from my muse. Sometimes shed give me a doyen ideas at once and i end up with a notebook with stories that have starts but no bodys or ends.