ParanetOnline
The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Mira on February 03, 2026, 01:40:15 PM
-
We don't know at this time exactly when Marcone took up Namshiel's coin, but I believe that when he decided to buy a castle and bring it to Chicago to be reconstructed over the ruins of Harry's boarding house, Namshiel directed him to which castle to buy. As in it's no coincidence that that castle just happened to have belonged to or was set up by Merlin. Harry told Bob when he expressed concern that there might have been reconstruction problems affecting what Harry was about to do as far as defenses go. Harry's answer was that Marcone was a lot of things, but he wasn't incompetent and he had Namshiel's help doing it. We saw what the castle was capable of doing defense wise in the hands and staff of a capable wizard. So my question is, why during the Battle of Chicago was the castle damaged at all? Did Marcone/Namshiel ignore the need to set up Merlin's wards? I find it hard to believe they didn't know about them. Did Marcone think they would never be needed? Did Marcone need an entity like Bob to set them up? Or as Harry chided him at the end of Battleground, that even though his coin belongs to a powerful fallen angel wizard, Marcone was still an amature?
-
I think it's that the castle needs a spirit of intellect.
-
I think it's that the castle needs a spirit of intellect.
[/quote
Did Merlin have one? You would still think that Namshiel could have come up with one, or foreseen the need for one. Because without the wards, the castle was simply an impressive residence.
-
I think their was some functionality to the wards without a spirit of intellect.
I don't know how common spirits of intellect are. We've only heard of three on page and the goddess Athena according to WoJ. And we do know that while Evil Bob serves, he doesn't have to. He offered to betray Corpsetaker and take Harry as an apprentice.
-
I think their was some functionality to the wards without a spirit of intellect.
I don't know how common spirits of intellect are. We've only heard of three on page and the goddess Athena according to WoJ. And we do know that while Evil Bob serves, he doesn't have to. He offered to betray Corpsetaker and take Harry as an apprentice.
My point is though, is apparently Marcone when he owned the castle either wasn't aware, or was unable to make use of Merlin's wards. Odd in that he was hosting a fallen angel with top wizard skills. I'd like to know how this particular castle was selected to be purchased and brought over here.
-
I don't think anyone was expecting things to kick off that night.
-
Ethniu attacked from inside the castle and was invited in, so that needs to be taken into account.
I think the castle needs a spirit of intellect to be fully operational and they are probably hard to come by.
I'd guess this castle was the best Marcone could get his hands on even without using a spirit of intellect.
-
We are forgetting, that Harry is not actually "good" at quick-magic (he cheats via stupendous brute forcing of magic juice with his tremendous power reserves and physical stamina), and especially not large scale or complex ones, like controlling the various "systems" incorporated into Merlin's tower seems to require. So I think it is actually possible for a single wizard to operate all the defenses, if they're good at that sort of thing. I would expect that it does not even have to be a spirit of intellect specifically, that would be required to be a stand-in for such skills, either, e.g. perhaps someone/something like the gargoyles may be able to do it too, or at least specific parts of it. And potentially, he could perhaps achieve the same level of control of those systems Bob has, but he'd need a bit of prep time for a more "serious" ritual to temporarily connect to them more directly, since with the battle at the end he only had like half an hour's worth of warning?
-
My point is though, is apparently Marcone when he owned the castle either wasn't aware, or was unable to make use of Merlin's wards. Odd in that he was hosting a fallen angel with top wizard skills. I'd like to know how this particular castle was selected to be purchased and brought over here.
I think that marcone knew about the wards but was not yet ready to do what Harry could. Remember that Marcone most likely doesn't have the skills to pull this off. Not the knowledge Nam has the knowledge. Not sure of their relationship and how much control Nam has over Marcone. The closest analogue I can think of is a person having an accident and having to relearn to walk. Marcone has to build up his skills and focus step by step in spite having the knowledge all ready.
Plus Marcone probably has to prioritize combat magic over the more subtle type of magic.
-
I think that marcone knew about the wards but was not yet ready to do what Harry could. Remember that Marcone most likely doesn't have the skills to pull this off. Not the knowledge Nam has the knowledge. Not sure of their relationship and how much control Nam has over Marcone. The closest analogue I can think of is a person having an accident and having to relearn to walk. Marcone has to build up his skills and focus step by step in spite having the knowledge all ready.
Plus Marcone probably has to prioritize combat magic over the more subtle type of magic.
I think Marcone had the castle at least five years, which isn't a short time.
-
I think Marcone had the castle at least five years, which isn't a short time.
Yeah. My only guess at your questions, which are great by the way, is two fold.
- The castle requires a spirit of intellect to be fully operational, and those are extremely rare.
- Ethniu being invited and attacking from the inside drastically lowered the effectiveness of any wards.
Harry does say that the wards are based on the threshold, so once one is inside, the wards don't do much. The other defenses of the Castle probably require a spirit of intellect.
-
Harry does say that the wards are based on the threshold, so once one is inside, the wards don't do much. The other defenses of the Castle probably require a spirit of intellect.
It's likely a combination of factors. First off, Bob is a fairly unique resource. Second, Marcone didn't really appear to live in the castle and he had mercs traipsing in and out all the time. Harry has used it like a home with families that have been living there for months without going out much. We don't know how long it takes for thresholds to form, but Harry has suggest that a bachelor's pad or business doesn't hold a candle to one that has real families making it a home. Last, Marcone didn't really want to reveal his association or abilities to the gathered powers. I'd guess Marcone was both taken by surprise and wanting to see what the others did.
-
I suspect Namshiel may be on a redemption arc, un-Falling.
Or at least is being an ally-of-convenience against the Outsiders, working with Uriel (or other unFallen angels).
1. If he was such a badass angel-wizard, how could Harry have beaten him back at first meeting in the Shedd? Soulfire was brand-new to Harry, but well-known to Thorny; angels are essentially pure soul, so Thorny has *WAY* more magic muscle to throw around in that particular arm-wrestling match, and it's his "native tongue" so to speak, utterly familiar to him for millions of years.
Maybe ... Thorned Namshiel threw that fight?
2. It's just way, way too convenient for Merlin's Castle to have been imported from Europe to the shores of Lake Michigan and set up precisely atop Harry's old laboratory, just in time for the Warden of Merlin's Well to return, and take the Castle off Marcone's hands.
I can only conclude that Thorned Namshiel wanted Dresden in possession of the Castle!
Taken together, these sure make it look like Namshiel is working on the same side as Harry...
-
1. If he was such a badass angel-wizard, how could Harry have beaten him back at first meeting in the Shedd? Soulfire was brand-new to Harry, but well-known to Thorny; angels are essentially pure soul, so Thorny has *WAY* more magic muscle to throw around in that particular arm-wrestling match, and it's his "native tongue" so to speak, utterly familiar to him for millions of years.
At the Shedd, Soul Fire, if I remember correctly came as a complete surprise to Harry, he had no idea he had been gifted with it, let alone know what it was. He didn't find out about that until later at the hospital and "Jake the Janator" aka Uriel informed him of it, and was very vague about it. It wasn't until Bob tried to explain it, did Harry have much of a clue, it's only now that he seems to have gotten a bit of a handle on how to use it. At the Shedd, Thorny had no clue either that Harry had it, so he was taken completely by surprise.. It was the surprise at that point that gave Harry the advantage against Thorny at the Shedd.
I suspect Namshiel may be on a redemption arc, un-Falling.
Or at least is being an ally-of-convenience against the Outsiders, working with Uriel (or other unFallen angels).
I seriously doubt that Namshiel is working with Uriel, or that Uriel would work with him. I don't think his Boss would approve. Now Marcone on the other hand could be on the redemption road, but only if he eventually rejects the coin and works at it
2. It's just way, way too convenient for Merlin's Castle to have been imported from Europe to the shores of Lake Michigan and set up precisely atop Harry's old laboratory, just in time for the Warden of Merlin's Well to return, and take the Castle off Marcone's hands.
I can only conclude that Thorned Namshiel wanted Dresden in possession of the Castle!
Taken together, these sure make it look like Namshiel is working on the same side as Harry...
You could be right about Namshiel being behind Marcone just happening to aquire Merlin's Castle, and putting it at the site of where Harry lived over his old lab. While I believe your logic for it might be right, but your conclusion is faulty.
It's logical that Namshiel would want a fortress like Merlin's Castle to work out of, he may have wanted it for a long time. He finally has a host, i.e. Marcone, who actually had the financial backing and means of making it happen. Reread the bit in Twelve Months where Harry does the "Wizard of Oz" trick using the leylines under the castle as a power source, when he warns the vanilla demonstrators. That's why Namshiel wanted that particular location, the leylines that just happen to cross where Harry's basement lab was located. Oh another reason, remember Lea's garden is also located at that particular location. Result there is no reason to conclude that Namshiel is working or attempting to work on the same side as Harry based on the evidence presented.
-
Lea moves her garden to wherever Harry sleeps. The Garden is probably a weakness if it stays because Harry can get there and there would be no escape into the Never Never for Marcone.
I thought the castle was able to draw the ley line in, not that it was there.
-
Lea moves her garden to wherever Harry sleeps. The Garden is probably a weakness if it stays because Harry can get there and there would be no escape into the Never Never for Marcone.
I thought the castle was able to draw the ley line in, not that it was there.
I imagine that's a Jim question, or maybe there is a WOJ on it, but I don't think you can draw ley lines to you or an area. My opinion is they exist where they exist and powerful wizards and other supernatural folk make use of them if they can. It is also possible I suppose that the exception is Merlin, if a wizard was able to draw a ley line in for his use it would be Merlin. However that doesn't quite work in the case of the castle does it? By that I mean it's unlikely that the ley lines were transported over the ocean and to Chicago from England or where ever the castle originated. So in my opinion the ley lines were already there, that may have made Harry's congering circle a bit more powerful or strong. Though one has to ask, was Harry aware that they were there when he moved into the place years ago? All I remember in Storm Front was him saying he liked his basement apartment because the basement had a basement for his lab.
-
“You got those ley lines called up?” Merlin’s fortress, they had called it, this castle. And it had been built not only to shelter and protect, but to channel magical energy as well. Its layered enchantments gave it a metaphysical mass far beyond the weight of mere stone. Magically speaking, it was made of a superdense substance, like the material of a collapsed star. And like that material, it had its own kind of gravity. “It’s ready to bring them together,” Bob said.
As Bob began activating the castle’s enchantments, that gravity spread out, drawing toward it flowing rivers of natural magical energy in the earth—ley lines—drawing them toward it like a star being drawn into a black hole, like rivers caught in a massive earthquake suddenly forced to a new course.
I closed my fist, cutting off the energy, sent it back into the conjunction of the river of ley lines beneath me. The vast projection of my head went with it.
I'm fairly certain Harry would have noticed that his home was at a conjunction of ley lines. He'd seen Listen to Wind's map and Harry and Molly knew them from memory in Cold Days.
-
I'm fairly certain Harry would have noticed that his home was at a conjunction of ley lines. He'd seen Listen to Wind's map and Harry and Molly knew them from memory in Cold Day
Ley lines or Ways? Harry could very well have noticed, that's why he made his home at that address. However I can't remember Harry making use of Ley lines until 12 Months. I remember Rashid warning him about trying to make use of the power of the crossing Ley lines under Demonreach, trying to use them may have been what corrupted the Warden before Harry.
-
Ley lines. In Small Favor Luccio has a map of ley lines from Listens to Wind. In Cold Days, Harry starts marking conjunctions of ley lines, Molly finishes. The castle isn't mentioned.
Harry uses a ley line in Changes, but it wasn't a ley line of dark energy. It was the dark energy that would change Harry, not just energy. Harry considers using the ley line in Cold Days right before the Water Beetle shows up.
If you go back Turn Coat and see Harry's reaction to the ley lines in Edinburgh, it makes it hard to imagine he lived on one, let alone a conjunction of ley lines.
Bob says the castle "is ready to bring them together" and Harry narrates that the ley lines are drawn toward the castle like rivers suddenly forced to a new course.
The text isn't vague. The ley lines were not there before the battle in 12 Months. I'm fairly certain they aren't there after the battle either. They were relatively near. Near enough to be drawn to the castle. Maybe deep below the surface where they couldn't otherwise be accessed.
-
Bob says the castle "is ready to bring them together" and Harry narrates that the ley lines are drawn toward the castle like rivers suddenly forced to a new course.
The text isn't vague. The ley lines were not there before the battle in 12 Months. I'm fairly certain they aren't there after the battle either. They were relatively near. Near enough to be drawn to the castle. Maybe deep below the surface where they couldn't otherwise be accessed.
Report
Or Harry didn't know how to bring it to him yet when he lived in that basement.. In Twelve Months Harry talks about the energy, of the ley lines, in other words they were always there, but before the castle was there, Merlin's castle, the energy from them couldn't be called up. Not easily, not under control, Bob even asks Harry if he was ready to channel that energy.
-
Ley lines are energy.
The text clearly says they are moved.
The text clearly describes Harry coming into contact with ley lines and reacting in Turn Coat.
Bob seems concerned the Castle wasn't reconstructed correctly based on Harry's response.
-
Ley Lines are like rivers, the course of them can be diverted some, and do divert because of various reasons, however to make use of the water in them, action of some sort has to be taken. The castle as Merlin constructed it and the wards he put into place, enabled Harry to make use of the energy of the Ley Lines already there. However if an error in reconstruction had been made, there would be a problem in accessing that energy. Also there is more to it than simply accessing the energy, one has to be able to control that energy. When Harry was living in the basement, the Ley Lines under it were there, but Harry didn't have the skills to use the energy in them yet. Maybe he had hope of it in the future, but he didn't have the skills, though just being close or over them helped with his magic circle. It's like the Ley Lines that cross Demonreach, apparently they contain extra powerful energy, maybe has a lot to do with why the prison is able to contain the monsters that it does. There is a temptation for the Warden to make use of that energy, Rashid warned Harry that he wasn't ready to handle that kind of energy yet. Harry agrees though with the "Oz" thing he has shown that he may be getting close. This is the temptation or one of them that Mab was talking about when she said to Mother Winter that so far Harry has resisted the temptations of the island. This is the trap I think that corrupted Kemmler, he tried to make use of those Ley Lines for necromancy.
-
The text disagrees.
-
... It was the surprise at that point that gave Harry the advantage against Thorny at the Shedd ...
I'm reminded of story I heard about a very-senior jiu-jitsu sensei who was having a Very Bad Day, he was angry about I-don't-remember-what.
Somebody unaware of his mental state managed to walk up behind him, clap their hands over his eyes meaning to say "guess who" but before the first syllable was out of their mouth they were airborne in a the kind of throw that ends in a full-body slam onto the floor with both hands tangled & unable to slap a breakfall at all.
Also reminded of Harry triggering one of Eb's defense-contingencies.
When you "get surprise" on someone, best make sure they aren't much, much better than you.
I absolutely do not believe utterly-new-to-Soulfire Harry could have so utterly manhandled any Angelic being... it is beyond "implausible."
(fwiw: the sensei mentioned above (once their "foe" was in front of them instead of behind, i.e. could *see* them) was able to alter the throw to be setting-them-down-upon-their-feet)
... It's logical that Namshiel would want a fortress like Merlin's Castle to work out of, he may have wanted it for a long time. He finally has a host, i.e. Marcone, who actually had the financial backing and means of making it happen. Reread the bit in Twelve Months where Harry does the "Wizard of Oz" trick using the leylines under the castle as a power source, when he warns the vanilla demonstrators. That's why Namshiel wanted that particular location, the leylines that just happen to cross where Harry's basement lab was located. Oh another reason, remember Lea's garden is also located at that particular location. Result there is no reason to conclude that Namshiel is working or attempting to work on the same side as Harry based on the evidence presented.
Consider your accounting of Thorned Namshiel's motivations and desires here. He "finally has a host" who can get him the castle/base/HQ/lair/whatever that he has long dreamed of.
Consider the scene where Harry demands the castle. Does Namshiel just allow Marcone to give up that long-sought prize??!? Once again, this bursts the bonds of credulity.
This was all maneuvering to get the castle into the Well-Warden's possession.
-
Also reminded of Harry triggering one of Eb's defense-contingencies.
...
I absolutely do not believe utterly-new-to-Soulfire Harry could have so utterly manhandled any Angelic being... it is beyond "implausible."
Eb wasn't in the middle of a complicated enough working that it required a circle. Harry didn't use soul fire. Uriel did. The Fallen are formerly angelic. Formerly angelic vs arch angel working through mortal is what we are looking at in this fight.
Not all of the Denarians are that impressive. The one's with cooperating hosts seem to be. And Harry has taken in several of those one on one or maybe under worse odds and done well.
-
... Harry didn't use soul fire. Uriel did ...
I think you are entirely mistaken about that. Harry was casting; Uriel "jostled" his casting, but did not take it over: that was Uriel showing Harry the key element of using Soulfire. That was Harry's first time using Soulfire.
I'm pretty sure the key "tell" that this was nerdy-Harry's own Soulfire-fueled spell is that it took the form of a high-level D&D spell: https://dnd5e.wikidot.com/spell:bigbys-hand (https://dnd5e.wikidot.com/spell:bigbys-hand)
-
I did overstate my position in favor of brevity. Uriel is definitely not controlling Harry, but Uriel is acting with intellectus. He knows exactly what a nudge will do at that moment and chose that moment particularly. It wasn't the first time Harry used magic in Small Favor.
And note that Harry hasn't used soul fire in anything nearly that advanced since. The closest is his noose on the skin walker. If it has been as advanced, Harry would have lifted the skin walker high enough that it couldn't have made a circle. Harry would have killed it.
There was a lot more of Uriel's skill in that specific use than Harry's, in my opinion.
I also think Namshiel is a bit of a light weight as far as Denarians go. He's very fortunate to have gotten Marcone as a host. Marcone would be scarier to me than Namshiel as an adversary if I was Harry. (I'd rather face Marcone because he has no interest in me going to Hell or suffering. He'd just kill me clean, if possible).
-
Consider the scene where Harry demands the castle. Does Namshiel just allow Marcone to give up that long-sought prize??!? Once again, this bursts the bonds of credulity.
No, it doesn't at all, consider the circumstances under which Harry demanded the Castle, it was under the rules of the Accords. Marcone couldn't refuse, he wasn't happy about it, but he couldn't refuse. Namshiel cannot control Marcone, if Marcone didn't know or apricate the capabilities of the castle, it was because Namshiel failed to make that clear to him. Marcone still has free will, still can say no or yes, still give up the coin and try for redemption. Namshiel can influence, but he cannot control, the host still has free will unless he or she becomes a slave to the denarian. Which has also happened, what Harry saw in that first soul gaze which helped him to resist Lasciel, because he didn't want to become her servant.
-
No, it doesn't at all, consider the circumstances under which Harry demanded the Castle, it was under the rules of the Accords. Marcone couldn't refuse, he wasn't happy about it, but he couldn't refuse. Namshiel cannot control Marcone, if Marcone didn't know or apricate the capabilities of the castle, it was because Namshiel failed to make that clear to him. Marcone still has free will, still can say no or yes, still give up the coin and try for redemption ...
I don't think Marcone was obligated to surrender anything Harry asked for, though. The home castle -- of the Baron of Chicago (let alone Merlin's Castle!) -- would and should have been too big an Ask. One typically only takes prizes of that magnitude by right of conquest, and Marcone & Dresden were allies for the Battle of Chicago.
It was just an excuse, to get it into Harry's hands. Big power-players (and every one of the Fallen counts) have spotted that Harry is shaping up to be a very useful piece in the coming battle, and they're adding powers to get him more-able for the coming apocalypse. The castle was one of Namshiel's moves, just as the Knightmantle was one of Mab's moves, Soulfire was one of Uriel's, Hellfire was one of Lasciel's, and Lasciel herself was one of Anduriel's. Harry himself becoming the Warden of Demonreach I think surprised most of the power-players (except I think for Uriel; and maybe Mab and/or Odin)
But I think we will have to agree to disagree; I don't think I'll convince you, and you haven't convinced me.
-
I don't think Marcone was obligated to surrender anything Harry asked for, though. The home castle -- of the Baron of Chicago (let alone Merlin's Castle!) -- would and should have been too big an Ask. One typically only takes prizes of that magnitude by right of conquest, and Marcone & Dresden were allies for the Battle of Chicago.
Yes, Marcone was, under the Accords, pages 382 to 385 of Battle Ground
Mab first explains about the Accords
"The Accords," she said, "provide for reparations to damaged parties."
Harry further explains why under the Accords Marcone owes him;
"There is also the matter," I said, to Mab, "of personal debt. Ethniu was my kill, before all the Accord nations, in defense of the demesne of Baron Marcone of Chicago." I turned to face him. "Acknowledgment of that act is due."
Harry says since he lost his home defending Marcone's territory under the Accords, Marcone owes him a debt. He was backed by Evanna confirming that Harry had lost his home, which was really Molly's old place and no replacement was available. Then Harry says;
"See?" I said. "A debt is owed. And we take our debts pretty serious in Winter."
Marcone argued that getting the Eye should be enough reward for Harry, except he couldn't prove that Harry had it. Harry was backed up by Lara who said the last she saw Marone had it. Harry had Alfred hide it and not tell him where so he could truthfully say he had no clue where the Eye was and demanded that Marcone produce it. Marcone couldn't either produce it nor prove that Harry had it, so finally he asks Harry on page 385;
Marcone's gaze slid around the faces of the Ministry, weighing what he saw there. He yielded with reluctant grace. "Very well, Sir Dresden." Marcone sighed. "What do you wish of me?" I leaned down to look him in the face. "I want my lab back," I said. "Move your stuff."
So, yes, under the Accords in front of witnesses, i.e. the other members of the Accorded nations, Marcone did have to give Harry the castle. Skillfully manipulated into it by Harry, who fudged on the truth a bit though technically not lying, but under the Accords as stated by Mab, Marcone had no choice but to give to Harry what he asked for to repay the debt he owed to him.