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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Dina on January 24, 2026, 02:54:40 AM
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I've been thinking. Someone remembers if Harry officially gave his name to Maggie? Or is she Mendoza or Rodriguez? I've been wondering what is her full Name. Margaret Angélica .... ?
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It's never mentioned if they went through a legal process, but she is only ever referred to as Dresden.
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Didn't the gatekeeper take care of all of his legal stuff when he came back from the dead? I always assumed that included Maggie's status as well, for some reason.
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I don't remember. I am almost sure she was Margaret Angélica Mendoza before Chichen Itzá and I knew somebody (I did not remember who, so Lara, it could have been the gatekeeper) took care of the legal part, but Harry "was dead" so I was never sure if the bothered given her his name, especially knowing all the enemies Dresden (and Eb) had. So, I just had the idea that perhaps the Carpenters have been appointed the legal guardians of Margaret Mendoza.
I mean, Susan hide her in the system so their enemies did not find her. Calling her Margaret Dresden would have been so stupid like trying to hide the son of Anakin Skywalker in his birth planet and keeping his name.
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I don't remember Susan ever saying what Maggie's full name was. I don't think the family she was living with were her legal guardians, they just took care of her for Maggie. I believe that's how the Red King was able to trace her to kidnap her. So I guess her last name as Susan's last name. Harry could have adopted her by now, so her last name would be Dresden now. I don't think the Carpenters formally adopted her so Carpenter isn't her last name.
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I think the Gatekeeper only took care of Dresden's coming back from the dead stuff.
The Reds knew who she was because Martin told them. That's in Changes.
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The Reds knew who she was because Martin told them. That's in Changes.
Yes, however I think and I could be wrong that it was also in Changes that Maggie still had Susan's last name, she hadn't been formally adopted by the family she was living with.
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A last name isn't mentioned in Changes. Only her middle name.
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I've been thinking. Someone remembers if Harry officially gave his name to Maggie? Or is she Mendoza or Rodriguez? I've been wondering what is her full Name. Margaret Angélica .... ?
I think legal name and True Name are not necessarily synonymous!
In particular, when Harry claims her as his daughter, I presume he sets up her American paperwork as Margaret Angélica Dresden; but this actually helps obfuscate her True Name. Similarly, I presume Susan arranged for her original paperwork to show her as a Mendoza child.
I presume she was born and True-Named as Rodriguez... but this is likely a pretty obscure truth at this point in time!
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I agree about legal name and True Name being a different thing. I...will actually send you a PM about this.
But I am interested in Maggie's name anyways. I don't know her legal or TRUE name.
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quote author=Dina link=topic=55318.msg2365309#msg2365309 date=1771381274]
I agree about legal name and True Name being a different thing. I...will actually send you a PM about this.
But I am interested in Maggie's name anyways. I don't know her legal or TRUE name.
Nor does anyone else at this point because the nitty gritty of just what Maggie's true name really is, at the moment is pure speculation.
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That was my point, I asked because I was not sure I could trust my memory.
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;) Agreed
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Nor does anyone else at this point because the nitty gritty of just what Maggie's true name really is, at the moment is pure speculation.
I wouldn't call it pure speculation.
Jim has given us plenty of hints about True Naming, and plenty of facts about little Maggie's possible names.
I'd call it "educated guesswork," and made my best guess above. I won't be utterly shocked to be proven wrong, though!
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I'd guess her true name is either already or will soon be Margaret Angelica Dresden.
I also wouldn't be surprised if Michael and Charity got all her American and Illinois paperwork set up while Harry was mostly dead.
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I wouldn't call it pure speculation.
Jim has given us plenty of hints about True Naming, and plenty of facts about little Maggie's possible names.
I'd call it "educated guesswork," and made my best guess above. I won't be utterly shocked to be proven wrong, though!
I don't see many facts, to be honest.
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Facts:
Nickname - Maggie
First Name - Margaret
Middle Name - Angelica
Last Name - Dresden, Rodriguez, or Mendoza
True Names change in humans.
The problem is we have too many facts to draw firm conclusions. For her legal name, I assume her last name is Dresden. It's more probable than anything else. But we know her first and middle. That's 2/3rds.
Adding to my point about the Carpenters, I wouldn't be surprised if Michael knew Harry was coming back. I'm certain he is the type to have prayed about decisions as to Maggie's paperwork. (Whether to do it, what choices to make). And Michael often gets clear and direct answers.
If he knew, he would have chosen Dresden to help push Harry into accepting his responsibilities. Charity even more so.
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Ah yes, Margaret Angélica are indeed facts.
Also yes, if Michael knew, he would have done the papers for Margaret Dreden but that perhaps that would have alerted others that Dresden was alive. And if they do not know, it would be safer not to use a name that would attract people and creatures wanting to revenge.
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Ah yes, Margaret Angélica are indeed facts.
Also yes, if Michael knew, he would have done the papers for Margaret Dreden but that perhaps that would have alerted others that Dresden was alive. And if they do not know, it would be safer not to use a name that would attract people and creatures wanting to revenge.
You got to wonder though, when we are talking "true names" does the last name even count? Last names are changed so often, when my grandfather came here from Denmark years ago, he changed his last name because of what the people around him thought his last name was or meant in English. When we marry we change our name, spellings change sometimes, people change their names.. Also when you are talking last names, it gets to be a mishmash because your parents didn't have the same last name at some point, or their parents, aunts and uncles etc.. So when we are speaking "true names" it is my opinion it's the given name only that counts, Margaret Angelica would be Maggie's true name, whatever her last name was or is now really isn't her "true name."
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I think in the books Harry mentions all his names as part of his True Name but I may be wrong.
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Yes, Harry introduces himself to readers in Storm Front like this:
"My name is Harry Blackstone Copperfield Dresden. Conjure by it at your own risk."
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I was thinking more about when he summons the demon and introduces us to the concept of True Name. Also, I think when talking with Ferrovax later he says something like he used his Name, or so I believe.
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Yes, Harry introduces himself to readers in Storm Front like this:
"My name is Harry Blackstone Copperfield Dresden. Conjure by it at your own risk."
I know he does, still using the last name as a true name doesn't make sense to me. What underlies this is the confusion about Maggie's last name, I imagine by now that Harry has formally adopted her. Not sure he needs to adopt her since she is his natural daughter. Since she is Harry's natural daughter you'd think that Dresden or Rodriguez as Susan's natural daughter, or both. Yet maybe another concept that sounds really cool, but when the story takes yet another turn it gets confusing.
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Yes, Harry introduces himself to readers in Storm Front like this:
"My name is Harry Blackstone Copperfield Dresden. Conjure by it at your own risk."
There's also the element where Chauncy is bargaining for parts of Harry's True Name.
Harry's internal/POV narrative is that his Name has 4 parts.
But there's also an issue of pronounciation.
You don't have *all* of the Name until you have the pronunciation correct.
All these elements have, on occasion, been reiterated since SF; so we can be confident that wasn't Early Episode Weirdness... a few powerful beings have shown that they do in fact have Harrys full True Name, with correct pronunciation, and it has shaken him.
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Facts:
...
True Names change in humans.
Do we know how often, or easily, the True Names change in humans, though? I don't recall this coming up in the canon stories; is there some nice clear WoJ?
Jim has been clear that two people cannot re-Soulgaze... WoJ provides an exceptional case: if one of them has undergone a wrenching, soul-redefining change (something exceedingly rare... Harry, for example, withstood a Fallen Shadow, and even converted her, has became the Winter Knight, with the mark of Winter deep inside his spirit; he has died (mostly (y'all know what I mean)). And yet none of these, singly or collectively, has changed him enough: everyone he has previously Soulgazed is still safe to look into his eyes). I suspect a re-Naming might take a similar level of change.
... I wouldn't be surprised if Michael knew Harry was coming back. I'm certain he is the type to have prayed about decisions as to Maggie's paperwork. (Whether to do it, what choices to make). And Michael often gets clear and direct answers.
If he knew, he would have chosen Dresden to help push Harry into accepting his responsibilities. Charity even more so.
Although, it's worth noting that the sorts of Answers that Michael gets back are not always the most-obvious/expected ones. Maybe the whole Rodriguez/Mendoza/Dresden muddle would actually benefit Maggie to be further muddled (in protective, hard-to-track-down ways) by giving her the Carpenter name. They wouldn't hesitate to extend their protection that way.
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I think Harry explains somewhere that as you cannot use old blood for humans, because humans change, something similar but slower happens with the Name. Perhaps even if someone has no change his legal name, they can change the way they say it, so changing the Name.
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I think Harry explains somewhere that as you cannot use old blood for humans, because humans change, something similar but slower happens with the Name. Perhaps even if someone has no change his legal name, they can change the way they say it, so changing the Name.
No; blood "wears out" as a link when it dries, or is burnt, or etc; relatively quickly.
I theorize that it's when the last blood-cells in the sample are dead, but I'm not certain.
I don't know how long carefully cryo-suspended (then carefully returned to body-temp) blood might last.
It was hair -- Molly's baby-hair -- that was unusable because she had "changed too much," becoming her own person instead of the almost-blank-slate that is a human infant.
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It was hair -- Molly's baby-hair -- that was unusable because she had "changed too much," becoming her own person instead of the almost-blank-slate that is a human infant.
Which is weird, I remember that from Proven Guilty, however genetically Molly's hair is the same now as it was when she was a baby. So basically Molly, is still Molly, so some other forces when it comes to magical tracking must be at work.
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Which is weird, I remember that from Proven Guilty, however genetically Molly's hair is the same now as it was when she was a baby. So basically Molly, is still Molly, so some other forces when it comes to magical tracking must be at work.
But we are much, much more than our genetics! The person we become -- our growth, our setbacks, how the people in our lives affect us -- is critical. This isn't just Harry-narration; the hair not working is explained by Bob, who's the most magically-knowlegable regular we meet.
Also consider how, in White Night, Harry isn't able to bring the telepathy-spell with Elaine back to functionality until he envisions all the changes she has gone through since he knew her last.
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But we are much, much more than our genetics! The person we become -- our growth, our setbacks, how the people in our lives affect us -- is critical. This isn't just Harry-narration; the hair not working is explained by Bob, who's the most magically-knowlegable regular we meet.
Also consider how, in White Night, Harry isn't able to bring the telepathy-spell with Elaine back to functionality until he envisions all the changes she has gone through since he knew her last.
I think that's comparing apples to oranges, both are fruit, but not the same.
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I think that's comparing apples to oranges, both are fruit, but not the same.
They depend upon the identity of the person.
It's not conclusive, I agree.
But it's indicative.
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I agree. If I understand correctly, human identity changes much than, for example, Mab's identity (Uriel would be an even more extreme example). In fact, I am wondering if perhaps the Names that Chauncy got for Harry are not so usefur right now.
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I agree. If I understand correctly, human identity changes much than, for example, Mab's identity (Uriel would be an even more extreme example). In fact, I am wondering if perhaps the Names that Chauncy got for Harry are not so usefur right now.
I suspect that they are: Harry I think expects so, for one thing.
But also: everyone who has Soulgazed Harry is still immune to further Soulgaze with him; and Jim has said that someone *can* reset that, and be Soulgazed anew, if they change sufficiently.
My suspicion is that both changes are changes to the Soul -- the core identity.
I doubt we will get clarity unless somebody asks for a WoJ during an AMA event.
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Truth of the matter, is the truth in the story is what Jim makes it. Your basic genetics don't change, so basically you are who you are. Life's experiences are another matter, and I don't think personality is understood very well. The latter is born out by the cloning of pets, in theory the genes are the same, but the cloned pet doesn't act like the original did. So tracking spells apparently have little to do with a person's DNA, other factors must be at work. Also since she is possessed, is Justine the same woman she was before? So was the attempt to track her doomed from the start?
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That is a very good question.
Genetics remain unchanged but I think there is a chance that the Name of Harry Dresden P.I. is different of the Name of Harry Dresden, Winter Knight. But as you said, it is all up to Jim and we don't have textual evidence for anything. It is just what makes sense for me.
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That is a very good question.
Genetics remain unchanged but I think there is a chance that the Name of Harry Dresden P.I. is different of the Name of Harry Dresden, Winter Knight. But as you said, it is all up to Jim and we don't have textual evidence for anything. It is just what makes sense for me.
I think Harry's true name is still his true name whether he is a wizard P.I. or wizard Winter Knight, the reason I say that I remember Harry explaining to Fritz in 12 Months about how careful you have to be not to give up your true name, then he said he has given up all except one. The only time we've ever seen Harry give up any of his true names was in Fool Moon to Chauncy. However I don't remember him saying at that time he had only one more left and he wasn't about to give it out. I only remember that as inticing as Chauncy's offers of information were he wasn't going to give up anymore. I can't remember him giving up any of his true names since then, but I could be wrong there.
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I thought he had given "all his names but once" in SF, but I may be wrong. I reread SF many times, but I have not done it in years. So, I think Harry was talking about what happened in SF and that gives no evidence about if those names still work.
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I thought he had given "all his names but once" in SF, but I may be wrong. I reread SF many times, but I have not done it in years. So, I think Harry was talking about what happened in SF and that gives no evidence about if those names still work.
Yeah, he does at the end of Storm Front, that's where it gets confusing I think. In Fool Moon, he gives one name to Chauncy and I think he had given one other one a time before or says he did, have to go back. In 12 Months he tells Fitz he has given all his true names but one, and stresses how careful one has to be with one's true names. Where the confusion is I think is that the Files are really Harry's journal looking back at his history as he saw it at the time. So at the end of Storm Front, this is Harry, star born wizard, looking back at his life, he can state all of his true names because at his age he has nothing to lose, or he is so powerful and was victorious over the Outsiders you conjure with his true names at your own risk.