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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: knightedbishop on January 23, 2026, 02:56:39 AM
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Mab says this to Nemesis. What does she mean? I have not carefully re-read the books. I remember the knife introduced the infection into the Winter Court. Bianca gave it to Leanansidhe, who was infected. Leanansidhe infected Maeve (according to Mab, I believe she explained this to Harry at the end of Cold Days). Cait Sith was infected. And now Justine.
That makes four nem-fected. Mab torture-cured Leanansidhe. Harry eliminated Maeve. Cait Sith’s status is unknown.
I thought 13 might refer to the number of nem-fected, but if that’s the reference that Mab has removed at least two of Nemesis’ puppets (Leanansidhe and Maeve), so should she say from 13 you’re now 11, soon to be 10?
If she’s counting off something else…any idea what it is?
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I think she is saying she captured 1/13th of Nemesis when she cured Lea and she is going to capture another 1/13th from Justine.
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I think she is saying she captured 1/13th of Nemesis when she cured Lea and she is going to capture another 1/13th from Justine.
I interpreted it the same way. I believe the one in Maeve flew and found a new host. The ones in Lea and Justine were trapped. Are imagine the remaining 11 are infiltrated among all the super nations (one in Cat Sith, I guess). I thought it would be hilarious if one of them were in one of those Black Court elders Dresden reduced to purée, but realistically I don't think Nemesis can go too close to Drakul without being spotted.
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I interpreted it the same way. I believe the one in Maeve flew and found a new host. The ones in Lea and Justine were trapped. Are imagine the remaining 11 are infiltrated among all the super nations (one in Cat Sith, I guess). I thought it would be hilarious if one of them were in one of those Black Court elders Dresden reduced to purée, but realistically I don't think Nemesis can go too close to Drakul without being spotted.
Drakul is probably already outsider-aligned - might BE another outsider, trapped within the body of another of the sorcerer-kings. (Maybe)
I suppose there's merit to Nemesis spying even on its allies to watch against treachery, but if it's constrained to eleven - ten, if it hasn't dumped Cat Sith for a new host - would monitoring allies really make the priority cutoff?
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Drakul is probably already outsider-aligned - might BE another outsider, trapped within the body of another of the sorcerer-kings. (Maybe)
I suppose there's merit to Nemesis spying even on its allies to watch against treachery, but if it's constrained to eleven - ten, if it hasn't dumped Cat Sith for a new host - would monitoring allies really make the priority cutoff?
Agree, especially since you used qualifiers.
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Drakul is star born the outsiders can't touch him and if he joined him mab would not have told Harry that she might need him in a couple thousand years
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Yes, I actually think Drakul is going to help in the fight against the Outsiders. He is a monster, but it is a monster of this side.
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I think Drakul is the kind of guy who would take up the one ring use against Sauron, so he is probably using Outsiders in a way that is a net negative for reality.
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Drakul is star born the outsiders can't touch him and if he joined him mab would not have told Harry that she might need him in a couple thousand years
I don't think starborn confers utter immunity - Harry himself has had close calls with Outsider mental domination almost getting to him. It gives a mortal the capacity to resist, if their will is strong enough.
Mab's neutrality towards Drakul is a point against him being an outsider. But, then again, I find it a bit odd that she's willing to have an entire nation of definite Outsider hosts in the White Court as Accords members.
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Agree with all that, Snark Knight.
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I do not think they are wholly outsiders though. They were the spawn of the outsider and a human, so they are something in between maybe?
Can you remember if it was clear if they died or was sent to the outside when the host dies?
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I don't think starborn confers utter immunity - Harry himself has had close calls with Outsider mental domination almost getting to him. It gives a mortal the capacity to resist, if their will is strong enough.
Or being a Starborn might mean different things or convey different powers depending on the Starborn. Maybe not all Starborn have power over Outsiders? Or maybe more plausible Starborn have the power to cooperate with Outsiders? I mean with the exception of Harry, the other two Listens and Drakul seem like they might be Outsider team players. I wonder for example if Lord Raith isn't a Starborn, and that's why he seems to have the protection he has? If I remember from Blood Rites Eb said he tried and couldn't kill Lord Raith, but in Twelve Months he gave a bit different explaination as to why he wasn't able to kill him. In Blood Rites Harry says he felt a "cold empty" something or other in Lord Raith, protecting him, have to go back and read it, but now since we know now that the Hunger is Outsider, that would make sense, that being Starborn, Lord Raith would have a bit more protection.
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Can you remember if it was clear if they died or was sent to the outside when the host dies?
That's the impression I got from 12 Months. I'll have to reread it soon.
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That's the impression I got from 12 Months. I'll have to reread it soon.
Well, the preceding sentence from Mab is "Already has Mab vanquished thee once."
That (to me) implies that only Lea's "treatment" (which was apparently the first time Mab successfully applied it) ever resulted in "getting rid of the outsider," but it still does not clearly state whether it was completely destroyed, or just (permanently?) banished from the "material" universe.
Otherwise, I get the impression throughout the series that these 13 outsiders that got into the material universe are completely indestructible and "unremovable" by 99.999999999999999999999999% of methods.
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To consider the title of this thread, we should count who we know have been taken over by Nemesis and add names who could have been infested to hopefully get a better picture of who the 13 puppets are or were.
Aurora, Lea, Maeve, Cat Sith and Justine make five. Who else should we consider adding to the list? I think there are a fair number of people; and not people, to consider, even if we don't add all of them.
Victor Sells, Kravos the Nightmare; before he turned himself in a ghost, Mr. Ferro, the Red King, either Tessa or Rosanna, Cowl, Mavra and Elaine or someone currently on the White Council.
Someone or something corrupted Victor Sells and Kravos. There is nothing to definitively prove they were Nemesis puppets but they still have to be considered possibilities.
Mr. Ferro received a gift at Bianca's party as did Lea.
Nicodemus told Harry that someone on Tessa's crew was taken.
Why do I include the Red King, Mavra, Cowl, Elaine and think someone on the White Council could be or have been a Nemesis puppet? I think; I'm guessing, at least one individual from or close to every major faction has been taken. It's good strategy. Why go after one or two factions strong enough to oppose you when you can go after all of them?
Way back in the old forum I remember someone putting forth the idea that the Red King had been taken. The evidence they claimed backed this idea up was part of the conversation between Harry and the Red King. Something the Red King said about Arianna not being open to new possibilities.
Mavra? We know the Black Court are tied up with Outsiders. Harry guessed that in his last conversation with Lash. But like the White Court of vampires, maybe the Black Court has a relationship with Outsiders, but Nemesis needed more than that. Nemesis needed someone, something? on the inside to better control the Black Court. Isn't it odd that Mavra was the weakest of the crew Drakul sent to Chicago, but she was smarter than the rest of Drakul's crew?
Cowl? Why not. It makes sense seeing as Cowl had been doing so many things to help Nemesis.
Elaine? Jim has suggested she is not Kumori. Someone had to infect Aurora. That makes Elaine a candidate.
This makes nine candidates for a total of eight positions. I think most of them are or were Outsiders puppets. Aurora, Maeve and the Red King are dead and Lea is cured. Victor Sells and Kravos are dead. Justine has been neutralized. It is possible that five Nemesis puppets are dead and two have or are on the way to becoming to being cured. That would leave six left, at a minimum.
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IMO the Red King is (was?) absolutely an Outsider ally, but is not one of the 13 "nemfectors", same as Lord Raith.
Red Court vamps are with 99.9% certainty a similar "hybrid" and/or parasite state of "lesser" outsiders with mortals, like the White Court are, especially given the fact they've had much more blatant/obvious Outsider theming and influence throughout the series.
There's also one crucial fact to consider... do these 13 nemfectors have to permanently inhabit a single someone/something in the material world, or can they infect multiple beings, but can only actively control/observe through one of them at a time each?
I don't think this was ever actually clearly stated or clarified/mentioned in the stories nor WoJ.
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I do not think they are wholly outsiders though. They were the spawn of the outsider and a human, so they are something in between maybe?
Can you remember if it was clear if they died or was sent to the outside when the host dies?
That's the impression I got from 12 Months. I'll have to reread it soon.
So Lara says the Hungers die. Thomas's Hunger says they go into the void, which I took to be Outside.
Kurtin, I think once a host dies, Nemesis is free to infect another. I think Mab captured the one in Lea.
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I think Mab was talking about Nemesis, she was able to "kill" the one that was possessing Lea, that was puppet number 13.
She now says she will attempt the same cure on Justine, who apparently is also possessed by Nemesis, so that would be puppet number 12.
What is confusing is at the end of Battleground when Harry confronts Justine on the boat just as they get to Demonreach, it is an Outsider who apparently is possessing Justine. An Outsider who Harry confronts. Now is Nemesis just another name for Outsider soldiers or knights? Or was Nemesis possessing Justine along with the Outsider and really running the show? Or did the Outsider leave Justine and Nemesis take over when she fled? She is still possessed by Nemesis and that's puppet number 12 that Mab speaks about.
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Nemesis is the Outsider He Who Walks Beside.
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I think Mab was talking about Nemesis, she was able to "kill" the one that was possessing Lea, that was puppet number 13.
She now says she will attempt the same cure on Justine, who apparently is also possessed by Nemesis, so that would be puppet number 12.
What is confusing is at the end of Battleground when Harry confronts Justine on the boat just as they get to Demonreach, it is an Outsider who apparently is possessing Justine. An Outsider who Harry confronts. Now is Nemesis just another name for Outsider soldiers or knights? Or was Nemesis possessing Justine along with the Outsider and really running the show? Or did the Outsider leave Justine and Nemesis take over when she fled? She is still possessed by Nemesis and that's puppet number 12 that Mab speaks about.
This is just my impression Mira, but as Bad Alias says I think Nemesis is The Outsider. Whether it is the Optimist Prime of Outsiders; the first or original one of its kind, or just the current King or strongest of the Outsiders I doubt that it matters very much. Human kings and queens have very rarely made it to six decades in power and two decades was often a very good run for many of them. Even if Nemesis is only the current ruler of the Outsiders, its reign might already be measured in tens of thousands of years.
When I use the word King, that doesn't mean I think of Outsiders are organized in the same manner as human kingdoms. It could be that Nemesis is just so strong it can command other outsiders to do it's bidding for fear of what will happen to them if they don't obey.
I also don't know if the Walkers are distinctive individuals or simply different aspects of Nemesis. Nemesis called itself He Who Walks Beside. Maybe it is also HWWBf and HWWB but at different times or in different situations.
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Lash called He Who Walks Behind a "terrible creature, the most potent of the Walkers, a powerful knight among their [Outsiders] ruling entities." Nemesis would therefore be weaker than He Who Walks Behind.
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Nemesis is the Outsider He Who Walks Beside.
This. And Mab said she vanquishes one so I think what happened is that she literally sent the thing in Lea to the Outside. I don't know how but the tricky part seems to be to capture the host and split it from Nemesis, because just killing the host means that Nemesis is free to conquer another one. Instead, if it is sent to the outside, it can't be back (at least, for now Mab is operating as if sending it to the outside removes it from the game).
I also think Nemesis has puppets in all the major groups. That is why I said it would be funny if there was a nemfected blampire who was casually squashed by Harry. But in truth, I think Drakul would have probably spot the puppet.
Kurtis, I know you meant Optimus, but your Optimistic made me laugh. Self-correct, right?
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My question is if mab removed the outsider from Lea how did it get into Maeve and cat sith. If it can jump around like that why stay in Justine after it's cover was blown. If the corruption lasts after it leaves why stay in a chick with no powers. And if they can be caught and contained why just kill Maeve why not try to get the outsider as well. Also is cat sith on ice if so why not say 11. Wouldn't saying 12 when it was 11 be a lie
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I imagine Cat Sith is on the wind and I am not sure if Nemesis just jumping from a host won't kill it. I am not sure why it remained in Justine, but I imagine it has something to do with the baby.
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Already you feel the part of you imprisoned, and what it suffers. I will double that and more, thing.
Based on this, it seems clear that the 1/13th that was in Lea isn't banished, but captured. I got the impression it is imprisoned in the blade.My question is if mab removed the outsider from Lea how did it get into Maeve and cat sith. If it can jump around like that why stay in Justine after it's cover was blown. If the corruption lasts after it leaves why stay in a chick with no powers. And if they can be caught and contained why just kill Maeve why not try to get the outsider as well. Also is cat sith on ice if so why not say 11. Wouldn't saying 12 when it was 11 be a lie
I think the reason for killing Maeve is that Mab needs a Winter Lady and Maeve can't be involuntarily cured.
I don't think the corruption lasts after it leaves. This makes me think it was heavily focused on infecting Winter and/or getting to Demonreach. Everyone infected except Lea was related to getting into Demonreach.
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Agree with Winter and Demonreach.
I also thought Mab had trapped the one in Lea, but she then said "vanquished" and I am not sure what the word implies in this case.
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Agree with Winter and Demonreach.
I also thought Mab had trapped the one in Lea, but she then said "vanquished" and I am not sure what the word implies in this case.
Vanquished means defeated.
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Ok, then I am back thinking Mab captured Lea 1/13 and she expects to have Justine one soon too.
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It is possible that five Nemesis puppets are dead and two have or are on the way to becoming to being cured. That would leave six left, at a minimum.
The fraction of it that was in hosts who were killed could presumably return to circulation, though. Just a guess, but death of the host might return the possessing fragment to the outside, necessitating either being summoned back by mortal cultists or sneaking through the gates ... depending on turnaround time, a given fragment might have been responsible for multiple of the known infections.
Vitto Malvora is another possible candidate, although I tend to think his arrangement was with Before and his body ended up as the foundation of Sharkface. Madrigal and/or Madeline Raith might also be possibilities ... Madrigal in particular, since changing to a fear-eater against his House' usual predilection as lust-eaters could be Nemesis changing his nature.