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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Mr. Mouse on January 21, 2026, 04:10:28 PM

Title: True Love's Protection
Post by: Mr. Mouse on January 21, 2026, 04:10:28 PM
I thought the explanation for why Harry's protection disappeared was disappointing, sort of 'the narrative necessitates Lara be able to touch him and I don't want to bother with Harry having sex with someone else so there it is.'

A better explanation than Mab's would have been: "The protection is a feedback loop between the lover and the beloved. When one of them dies it fades quicker than if mere distance separates them." That gets Jim out of the corner he painted himself into without making it seem that ones later loves don't matter as much, which is an odd position to espouse when writing about characters with multi-century lifespans.
Title: Re: True Love's Protection
Post by: Mira on January 21, 2026, 06:31:52 PM
I thought the explanation for why Harry's protection disappeared was disappointing, sort of 'the narrative necessitates Lara be able to touch him and I don't want to bother with Harry having sex with someone else so there it is.'

A better explanation than Mab's would have been: "The protection is a feedback loop between the lover and the beloved. When one of them dies it fades quicker than if mere distance separates them." That gets Jim out of the corner he painted himself into without making it seem that ones later loves don't matter as much, which is an odd position to espouse when writing about characters with multi-century lifespans.

That really doesn't work either, Harry still burned Lara's lips in White Night five years after his split with Susan.  True, she was still alive, but he had had no contact with her at all in all those years.  To my mind, the love you feel lingers more after one loses a loved one to death than a split up, because you are still loving the memory and there is no distraction from it.  I skimmed the book before I started to read it, and when I saw that question come up, I thought was it more a quick passion than true love between Harry and Murphy?  That actually might have made things more interesting even if disappointing for both Harry and his Murphy shipping fans.
Title: Re: True Love's Protection
Post by: Mr. Mouse on January 21, 2026, 07:43:18 PM
That really doesn't work either, Harry still burned Lara's lips in White Night five years after his split with Susan.  True, she was still alive, but he had had no contact with her at all in all those years.  To my mind, the love you feel lingers more after one loses a loved one to death than a split up, because you are still loving the memory and there is no distraction from it. 

Personally, I agree with you about the love lingering more after a loved one dies, especially if one is summoning the shade and playing boardgames with it every night. But narrative necessity triumphs over all.

They might not have had contact, but Harry still felt love for Susan after 5 years and hadn't been with someone else. Susan still felt love for Harry after 5 years and hadn't been with anyone else. Ergo, lack of contact alone doesn't break the protection.

The problem Jim created was that Harry burned Lara while Murphy was alive, but not 4 months later. He needed  Lara to rock Harry's world with a superkiss on Halloween which should have burned her lips off if the protection held. His excuse of "I just fed" from the first date won't hold if she is indeed feeding on him.

Second alternative, Jim could have said it was Odin's scooping her up that broke the connection.
Title: Re: True Love's Protection
Post by: LaraBeck on January 21, 2026, 11:06:05 PM
I thought the explanation for why Harry's protection disappeared was disappointing, sort of 'the narrative necessitates Lara be able to touch him and I don't want to bother with Harry having sex with someone else so there it is.'

Couldn't agree more. If self-loathing was the cause, Harry should have lost the protection when Susan got turned. And granted, Harry himself says that he never felt as bad as he's feeling in Twelve Months over Murphy, not even when Susan got turned. But come on, it just makes no sense when we have other prior lore like Lara being burned by a wedding ring.

By that metric, will the protection returns as Harry makes peace with himself? It would be logical, except Lara still can touch him at the end of Twelve Months. And what is Murphy returns? (which is likely) Will the protection return?

I felt like there was a lot of seeding doubt into Harry and Murphy's love and I felt that was unnecessary. I mean, sure Jim needed to build up the relationship with Lara, but I don't appreciate trying to soft-retcon Murphy's character or her relationship with Harry.

Not when in the same book Harry tells us that he wanted to spend his life with Murphy.

It was like seeing two completely different Harry's chapter to chapter. I dunno, this was a major disappointment for me in this book, which overall wasn't that great to begin with.

I saw one reviewer saying that the book was soft-reboot of the series, and indeed, I feel that is accurate.

I mean, Lara, who is practically Thomas' mother, now is softer and emphathetic when she was pretty much okay with him being dead a few books in the past. And we're going to play that "she's just misunderstood" game now.

There's a lot of trying to make Lara fit into Murphy's place and I'm not happy with that, yes, partially because I still think Harry and Murphy should be together, but also because it was clumsily done in this book.
Title: Re: True Love's Protection
Post by: CrusherJen on January 22, 2026, 12:10:23 AM
Since I devoured the whole thing in one sitting, it's difficult for me to sort out if my initial reactions are fully baked or not... but yes, I agree, this doesn't hit well for me at all.

To a degree, the soft-retconning could be attributed to Harry learning more about how the world really works... but in this case I can't buy it. It's too different from what we saw Harry go through after Susan, or even the way we saw Lara get burned one book ago, and I really hate throwing doubt on Murphy's feelings after she died. We got books and books of build up between those two, it feels insincere to even imply "sour grapes" now. It's not just kicking someone when they're down, they're dead, and that just seems mean, in a way the saga typically hasn't been before.

I'm not all that committed to any ship but even if Harry winds up with someone else by the BAT, it doesn't mean that what he had with Karrin wasn't real while they were together, just as what he had with Susan was real at that time.

IMHO, any of the alternative explanations in this thread would have been better than what we got in the book.

It's one thing to have an unreliable narrator (which Harry is), but too much backtracking and retconning can damage a reader's faith in the narrative, creating distance and doubts, and that's not a good thing. Yes, maybe Lara can pull back on her power to some degree, she's probably old and powerful enough to have that much control, but between that AND the oh-so-conveniently waning protection AND Mab's catty little swipe at Murphy, it's all too much.  >:(
Title: Re: True Love's Protection
Post by: LaraBeck on January 22, 2026, 12:20:20 AM
We also got Harry saying "she was often wrong" about Murphy, when that's not what we've seen him think about her in all previous books.

We even got a "she held back from you" about Murphy from her shade and from Mab.

And sure, yes, that happened, they both held back IMO, Harry and Murphy, but to point it out solely about Murphy, indeed feels like kicking her when she's down. Harry could have done some introspection about that, it was clear he was "holding himself back" in Peace Talks.

And I mean, that woman was willing to walk through fire for Harry, she got into the battle field for him as much as for the safety of Chicago.

I could argue though, that these comments about Murphy "holding herself back" might be either 1. to seed doubt in their love, or 2. to seed the possibility that nothing will stop that woman from coming back for Harry, because they have unfinished business.
Title: Re: True Love's Protection
Post by: Mira on January 22, 2026, 02:33:25 PM
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To a degree, the soft-retconning could be attributed to Harry learning more about how the world really works... but in this case I can't buy it. It's too different from what we saw Harry go through after Susan, or even the way we saw Lara get burned one book ago, and I really hate throwing doubt on Murphy's feelings after she died. We got books and books of build up between those two, it feels insincere to even imply "sour grapes" now. It's not just kicking someone when they're down, they're dead, and that just seems mean, in a way the saga typically hasn't been before.

As a widow of a marriage of over forty years, it's been my experience that you don't stop loving someone just because they have died.  And my husband died ten years ago, for Harry it had not even been a month since Murphy died!  Then there was the whole thing about Murphy's shade not able to move on because of how she felt for Harry.. So yeah, a kiss from Lara should have burned her face off!  Maybe Mab was messed with that if she can? Because she would also know about the true love thing.  The other thing that bothered me was I thought that Murphy went to Valhalla? 
Title: Re: True Love's Protection
Post by: LaraBeck on January 22, 2026, 02:47:24 PM
As a widow of a marriage of over forty years, it's been my experience that you don't stop loving someone just because they have died.  And my husband died ten years ago, for Harry it had not even been a month since Murphy died!  Then there was the whole thing about Murphy's shade not able to move on because of how she felt for Harry.. So yeah, a kiss from Lara should have burned her face off!  Maybe Mab was messed with that if she can? Because she would also know about the true love thing.  The other thing that bothered me was I thought that Murphy went to Valhalla?

Mira, I think this might be one of the few times I've agreed with you so much. So, so much. Love doesn't work like it's been described in this book. Lara should have burned, badly. Mab's explanation is... lacking, something doesn't fit.

About Murphy being in Valhalla, she is. Her shade is not really her, it's just an impression of her at the time of her death. So, nothing in the book contradicts that the real Murphy is in Valhalla.
I still found it so odd that Harry gets Vadderung on the phone (is that easy to communicate with him apparently) but there's no question about Karrin, no intent to find out more, at the very least, to confirm that she's okay?

There are some weird choices in this book, IMO.
Title: Re: True Love's Protection
Post by: Mira on January 22, 2026, 03:20:03 PM
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About Murphy being in Valhalla, she is. Her shade is not really her, it's just an impression of her at the time of her death. So, nothing in the book contradicts that the real Murphy is in Valhalla.
I still found it so odd that Harry gets Vadderung on the phone (is that easy to communicate with him apparently) but there's no question about Karrin, no intent to find out more, at the very least, to confirm that she's okay?

There are some weird choices in this book, IMO.

  Murphy is in Valhalla but her shade isn't?  What is her shade then?  Her soul?  What?  So this might be what the rule is about, by that I mean, if Murphy's shade or soul has moved on, her body might return as a soldier for Odin, but it really isn't her.  So when and if Harry meets up with Murphy as one of Odin's soldiers, it's just her body and not her?  That should be interesting.

A couple of more things about the true love problem, not just the Harry/Susan love and Lara's lips burning after five years of them splitting, but the elaborate moves Thomas and Justine went through to keep from buring him.  To the point where she was wearing a latex suit so Thomas could touch her, then in Changes she has lesbian sex and finally they could have sex?  You mean the two of them were madly in love for all that time and they didn't have sex?  Or Thomas would be okay with Justine being unfaithful with another woman but not a man?  I think it was a cool idea at the time that Jim wrote it, and used it from time to time, but in the long run of the series wasn't really practical..  So now after the whole Murphy/Harry thing that so many fans were heavily invested in, not like they were with Susan/Harry, we get this weak explanation as to why Lara's face isn't burning off now.
Title: Re: True Love's Protection
Post by: LaraBeck on January 22, 2026, 03:40:41 PM
  Murphy is in Valhalla but her shade isn't?  What is her shade then?  Her soul?  What?  So this might be what the rule is about, by that I mean, if Murphy's shade or soul has moved on, her body might return as a soldier for Odin, but it really isn't her.  So when and if Harry meets up with Murphy as one of Odin's soldiers, it's just her body and not her?  That should be interesting.

A couple of more things about the true love problem, not just the Harry/Susan love and Lara's lips burning after five years of them splitting, but the elaborate moves Thomas and Justine went through to keep from buring him.  To the point where she was wearing a latex suit so Thomas could touch her, then in Changes she has lesbian sex and finally they could have sex?  You mean the two of them were madly in love for all that time and they didn't have sex?  Or Thomas would be okay with Justine being unfaithful with another woman but not a man?  I think it was a cool idea at the time that Jim wrote it, and used it from time to time, but in the long run of the series wasn't really practical..  So now after the whole Murphy/Harry thing that so many fans were heavily invested in, not like they were with Susan/Harry, we get this weak explanation as to why Lara's face isn't burning off now.

No, the shade is not her soul, this was explained in Ghost Story and is again pointed out in Twelve Months. This is not what the "rule" (einherjar) thing is about. Her shade is not Murphy, it's an impression of her, a copy of her at the time of her death. It won't have nothing to do with her memory or who Murphy truly is or where her soul is. Her soul is effectively in Valhalla, for all we know.

If Murphy is to return, it will be her, maybe slightly changed due to the new mantle of power, but it will be her. Just like Harry is still Harry with the mantle. It makes no sense, otherwise, to collect a honored warrior for their qualities, just to null them by turning them into people that they weren't. There's no point in that, if that was the case, they'd collect anyone.
Title: Re: True Love's Protection
Post by: Dina on January 22, 2026, 05:48:46 PM
I agree with LaraBeck about the shade being just a copy. She is not Murphy's soul.

And yes, the true love thing truly disappointed me. It makes not sense. I was ok with Lara touching Harry with all the explanation that she was not trying to fed, bla, bla that worked for BG. Besides, it was not necessary from a narrative POV. Lara could have projected his aura over Harry before feeding (we know the saliva of the whampires and I think their pheromones have a alluring effect) and then, when she actually tried to feed, she could have been burnt, retreat, but still had taken a taste of it. Or directly, Jim could have omitted that scene but added a scene where Mab insisted in Lara feeding from him as part of the alliance, and so Harry made a test of magically feeding Lara without her actually touching him. It would have make sense to do that small test even before when he tried to split Lara and her hunger.

This was the most disappointing thing in the book for me.
Title: Re: True Love's Protection
Post by: Mira on January 22, 2026, 07:56:47 PM
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No, the shade is not her soul, this was explained in Ghost Story and is again pointed out in Twelve Months. This is not what the "rule" (einherjar) thing is about. Her shade is not Murphy, it's an impression of her, a copy of her at the time of her death. It won't have nothing to do with her memory or who Murphy truly is or where her soul is. Her soul is effectively in Valhalla, for all we know.

If Murphy is to return, it will be her, maybe slightly changed due to the new mantle of power, but it will be her. Just like Harry is still Harry with the mantle. It makes no sense, otherwise, to collect a honored warrior for their qualities, just to null them by turning them into people that they weren't. There's no point in that, if that was the case, they'd collect anyone.

That doesn't make sense to me, sorry but it doesn't.. An impression of her, but not her? So why the need to move on?  It's her soul that moves on.  As an einherjar she won't have any mantle of power, non of the einherjar we've met have any power, they have their skills as warriors, this is why they were selected, but they have no power.
Quote
I could argue though, that these comments about Murphy "holding herself back" might be either 1. to seed doubt in their love, or 2. to seed the possibility that nothing will stop that woman from coming back for Harry, because they have unfinished business.

Again, if Murphy was holding herself  back presumably out of love for Harry and his love still held true, then it shouldn't matter whether Lara had just eaten or not, her lips still should have burned off.
Title: Re: True Love's Protection
Post by: Snark Knight on January 22, 2026, 08:03:13 PM
No, the shade is not her soul, this was explained in Ghost Story and is again pointed out in Twelve Months. This is not what the "rule" (einherjar) thing is about. Her shade is not Murphy, it's an impression of her, a copy of her at the time of her death. It won't have nothing to do with her memory or who Murphy truly is or where her soul is. Her soul is effectively in Valhalla, for all we know.

Also, think back to Grave Peril, where Harry purposefully flatlined to create a shade of himself, a copy at the moment of (near) death, to help him double-team Kravos' nightmare ghost.

The shade accomplished his unfinished business when they won, and just faded away.  The actual Harry returned to his body thanks to the girls keeping it viable with CPR.
Title: Re: True Love's Protection
Post by: LaraBeck on January 22, 2026, 08:07:08 PM
That doesn't make sense to me, sorry but it doesn't.. An impression of her, but not her? So why the need to move on?  It's her soul that moves on.  As an einherjar she won't have any mantle of power, non of the einherjar we've met have any power, they have their skills as warriors, this is why they were selected, but they have no power.

Yes, by the lore/mythology or whatever you wanna call it in the books, that's how shades work, they're not the souls of the deceased. The point is reinforced in Twelve Months and it doesn't contradict what we already knew since Ghost Story, so there's no continuity error there in this regard, at least. The shade is not Murphy, or Murphy's soul. Her soul is already where it's supposed to be, apparently.

I dunno how she'll come back, an einherjar or whatever, but in any case, it does not make sense that she changes, or that she's suddenly an empty vessel. The people recruited are recruited for who they are, it makes no sense to redefine that, so all the more reason to believe she'll be the same and not a "different" person than she was when she was alive.

Also, think back to Grave Peril, where Harry purposefully flatlined to create a shade of himself, a copy at the moment of (near) death, to help him double-team Kravos' nightmare ghost.

The shade accomplished his unfinished business when they won, and just faded away.  The actual Harry returned to his body thanks to the girls keeping it viable with CPR.

Yes, I imagine Murphy's shade faded away when Harry "let go" of her.

Again, if Murphy was holding herself  back presumably out of love for Harry and his love still held true, then it shouldn't matter whether Lara had just eaten or not, her lips still should have burned off.

I do agree with you on that.
Title: Re: True Love's Protection
Post by: Dina on January 22, 2026, 09:34:37 PM
I think the one who needed to move on was Harry, not the shade.

Title: Re: True Love's Protection
Post by: Snark Knight on January 25, 2026, 03:13:34 PM
Yes, I imagine Murphy's shade faded away when Harry "let go" of her.

I'm not done the book quite yet, so granted I might be wrong on this if there's confirmation I've yet to get to that Karrin's shade does just dissipate.

But I'd actually be kind of surprised if that's her fate.  She seems like a *prime* recruit for Uriel's Shade PD, that Harry got a brief look at in Ghost Story.  Working with the ghosts of her father and her old partner, staying in (albeit a very different theater of) the fight?  I'd be surprised if she's not inducted already, and Harry's summonings were just pulling her away from working cases.

I could see her maybe ceasing to take Harry's calls anymore if she starts to think that contact is doing more harm than good to him, though.
Title: Re: True Love's Protection
Post by: Mira on January 25, 2026, 04:43:33 PM
I'm not done the book quite yet, so granted I might be wrong on this if there's confirmation I've yet to get to that Karrin's shade does just dissipate.

But I'd actually be kind of surprised if that's her fate.  She seems like a *prime* recruit for Uriel's Shade PD, that Harry got a brief look at in Ghost Story.  Working with the ghosts of her father and her old partner, staying in (albeit a very different theater of) the fight?  I'd be surprised if she's not inducted already, and Harry's summonings were just pulling her away from working cases.

I could see her maybe ceasing to take Harry's calls anymore if she starts to think that contact is doing more harm than good to him, though.

  I think it's souls that work with Uriel, not shades or ghosts if they are souless..  It all gets very confusing. 
Title: Re: True Love's Protection
Post by: Snark Knight on January 25, 2026, 06:43:43 PM
  I think it's souls that work with Uriel, not shades or ghosts if they are souless..  It all gets very confusing.

I'm not properly sure whether Murphy pere or Carmichael were full souls or just shades, but Uriel certainly seemed to think he could use Sir Stuart.  Wasn't he a shade?  Mort said his retinue were shades, and almost any entity he encountered who thought it was the real person was just in denial.
Title: Re: True Love's Protection
Post by: Mira on January 26, 2026, 01:54:54 PM
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I'm not properly sure whether Murphy pere or Carmichael were full souls or just shades, but Uriel certainly seemed to think he could use Sir Stuart.  Wasn't he a shade?  Mort said his retinue were shades, and almost any entity he encountered who thought it was the real person was just in denial.

Yes, still confusing!  At the end of Ghost Story when Harry thought he was moving on, if I remember correctly he thought he was going to his judgement.

Anyway, back to the true love thing, I just reread the part where Harry and Id Harry talk about why Lara didn't burn him when they kissed.  Id Harry does question it and what true feelings really were.  Nothing satisfactory.
Title: Re: True Love's Protection
Post by: edf on January 26, 2026, 02:30:30 PM
I'm hoping that the True Love and other burning conditions get a more satisfactory explanation later.   

My initial WAG is that the emotional residue left behind is what actually causes the burning.  That's why a wedding ring can burn even if it hasn't been worn recently.  It can soak up "love" like a certain shroud can soak up belief.   Grief may actually burn out the feelings (literally lost love) while pining for someone helps renew it.   
Title: Re: True Love's Protection
Post by: LaraBeck on January 26, 2026, 02:40:39 PM
Let me just point out this interview (recent) where Jim talks about the love protection.

Watch from about min 38:40 it's a couple of minutes where he talks about this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xg5GxQb_rXo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xg5GxQb_rXo)

Let me know your thoughts if you figure out something from it related to this, what's your interpretation.

Though, I should say, I find JB to be somewhat inconsistent lately.
Title: Re: True Love's Protection
Post by: Mira on January 26, 2026, 03:46:01 PM
Let me just point out this interview (recent) where Jim talks about the love protection.

Watch from about min 38:40
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xg5GxQb_rXo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xg5GxQb_rXo)

Let me know your thoughts if you figure out something from it related to this, what's your interpretation.

Though, I should say, I find JB to be somewhat inconsistent lately.

That will have to wait until later, thank you though for sending the link.  I just don't have time this morning to listen and digest it.  My personal opinion is at the beginning of the series, the whole "true love" thing sounded great and worked great for the beginning of the series, but at the same time writing that Jim sort of wrote himself into a corner.  The concept of true love burning a White Court vampire was pretty cut and dried, it has been debated extensively for years here on this forum.  Then with the Thomas/Justine thing it started to get fuzzy.  For years Thomas nibbled on Justine and that feeding helped to keep her sane and there was no burning then though it was clear that Thomas at the very least liked her very much, then in Blood Rites, she was willing to die feeding him to save his life, and he was willing to die rather than kill her by feeding her to death.  Enter true love, from then on they were a couple but went to great lengths to avoid Thomas being burned on contact, like Justine wearing a laytex suit at a nightclub so they could snuggle.  No word about sex between them, though after Harry was "killed" and Thomas was grieving, Justine comes home with a lesbian girlfriend, they have sex with paves the way for Thomas and her to have relations.  If it was that simple, why hadn't that been done after they realized they truly loved one another?  And why a lesbian?  Wouldn't a one night stand with some guy do? I just find that wierd, not intended to be a judgement about gay sex.  Also at the end of White Night, Harry practically burns Lara's lips off because he still loved Susan and hadn't been with another woman for five years since she left.  What I am saying is Jim's original concept of the true love's protection thing was really cool, down to touching a wedding ring or a rose given in true love burning.. However jump ahead twenty years, true love really gets in the way of the narrative, especially after all the build up to Harry and Murphy, her dying violently in Harry's arms, and him very much grieving for her in Twelve Months.  As the saying goes, please Jim don't pee up our backs and call it rain!  I do understand he had created a problem for himself, and in order to move on with the story which now means Harry has to have a close relationship with Lara could only come up with some very lame excuses as to why it didn't burn when she kissed him.. Jim shouldn't have tried, in my opinion.  Yeah, other problems, like the very good questions Harry's Id was asking him, was it really true love between him and Murphy?  Or just seemed that way?  Of course that would have pissed off the H/M shippers, but would have made sense in a lot of ways.. Or could just a doubt about truly loving Murphy or vice versa do it? 
Title: Re: True Love's Protection
Post by: LaraBeck on January 26, 2026, 04:05:37 PM
Yeah, again, to me, trying to push the narrative toward a relationship between Harry and Lara, either if it turns romantic or if it's just about Harry getting "a taste of sexy", is doing a number of things to the overall story that Jim is not handling well, or at least, is not coming through to some of us, this matter feels very retconny. I find it disingenuous >:(
Title: Re: True Love's Protection
Post by: Dina on January 26, 2026, 06:14:27 PM
Things would have been easier if Harry had not burnt Lara in PT/BG. Not True Love. But since it happened, the easiest way to deal with it was not to have the long kiss scene in TM. Have Lara began feeding and then burn. She still would have tasted Harry and liked it and the rest of the book would be more or less the same, only the sexy scene with all its effect in Harry's mind would be shorter.
Title: Re: True Love's Protection
Post by: LaraBeck on January 26, 2026, 06:57:58 PM
Things would have been easier if Harry had not burnt Lara in PT/BG. Not True Love. But since it happened, the easiest way to deal with it was not to have the long kiss scene in TM. Have Lara began feeding and then burn. She still would have tasted Harry and liked it and the rest of the book would be more or less the same, only the sexy scene with all its effect in Harry's mind would be shorter.

Yes, that would have worked.

Honestly, I think many of us would have been so disappointed if Harry had not burned Lara in Peace Talks, I mean, it was him and Murphy, hard to believe they wouldn't have True Love™ all things considered. And in a book that is mostly about Harry mourning the woman he loved as Twelve Months was, it is hard to have that love being so questioned now by things that could have been fixed in a different way, because Lara being "sated" doesn't really work and Mab's explanation of Harry's self-loathing doesn't either. It's like we keep adding insult to the injury that was Murphy's death, because we (Jim) is rushing this situationship with Lara. I dunno, I've heard people saying that's the point, that it is on purpose, perhaps I'd believe that if Harry wasn't so lustful toward her or worse, was trying so hard to justify trusting her.
Title: Re: True Love's Protection
Post by: Dina on January 26, 2026, 09:23:50 PM
Well, my experience is different. I never believed Harry loved Murphy, at least not True Love, so I was surprised when he actually burnt Lara. I always thought their love was the love of a dear friend or sibling. More than many romantic loves, granted, but not True Love.
Title: Re: True Love's Protection
Post by: LaraBeck on January 26, 2026, 10:11:20 PM
Well, my experience is different. I never believed Harry loved Murphy, at least not True Love, so I was surprised when he actually burnt Lara. I always thought their love was the love of a dear friend or sibling. More than many romantic loves, granted, but not True Love.

Hm, I'm shook. I would understand to some level the "they were better friends than lovers" that some readers feel about them, regardless of my shipping heart, but I don't think they ever read as siblings or just friends. Interesting.
Title: Re: True Love's Protection
Post by: Dina on January 26, 2026, 10:37:46 PM
By Changes, I had the theory that someone was playing tricks with Harry's mind, making him believe that he was in love with Karrin when he was not. In my opinion, he talked too much.
Title: Re: True Love's Protection
Post by: Bad Alias on January 26, 2026, 11:12:33 PM
Watch from about min 38:40 it's a couple of minutes where he talks about this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xg5GxQb_rXo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xg5GxQb_rXo)
He does say that Susan is still out there. Murphy isn't. He does say Susan is still out there and Harry still pines for her. So maybe the person has to be alive and there has to be a certain present emotional stance towards them. Jim said Harry didn't know about Maggie. That suggests that knowing about Maggie would change his emotional stance enough to break the protection.

This lends validity to what Mab says in 12 Months about Harry's feelings being the reason he isn't protected anymore. It's probably several factors all working together that determines protection. In Blood Rites we saw that Harry was less protected than Arturo because Harry hadn't been with Susan for a long time. So time is probably another factor.
Title: Re: True Love's Protection
Post by: LaraBeck on January 27, 2026, 12:25:08 AM
Jim said Harry didn't know about Maggie. That suggests that knowing about Maggie would change his emotional stance enough to break the protection.

Now that is an interesting point. Harry definitely feels way different about Susan after he learns about Maggie, so I think you might be onto something. And indeed, in that case Mab's explanation could, potentially (though I'm still not 100% on board) maybe work.

I thought it was so Harry though, when he asked Mab if she was saying that death defeats love, because it's obviously a Princess Bride reference. I think, of all the excuses, like Harry here, I don't want to believe that death changes the protection, though. That's so depressing. I'd say Harry's self-loathing, his (IMO) self-centerness in his grief, his guilt, and how belief tends to work in the Dresden universe would be slightly more convincing a reason for why the True Love™ protection goes away. Though still a cheap excuse. If that were the case though, if Harry starts to feel better about it, if he embraces Murphy's memory, would the protection return? Probably not.

I will say this, too, that I found a bit hard to digest in this book: I don't have a problem with Harry grieving, I'll start with that, it was necessary, it is raw and it is painful. I wished we had seen a little less of "Karrin is dead and oh how much this hurts me" and more "Karrin is dead and that's unfair because Karrin was x, y and z" I mean, he tells us more times how wonderful Michael is in any of the books than he thinks about Murphy in this one, when it'd be the appropriate book to do it. There's a lot of things that you feel when you lose someone, yes, guilt, anger, denial, but also longing, and the memories of the best about them replay in your head making you miss them more, want them more. I felt there wasn't enough longing or enough memories. And I still can't believe we didn't learn when her birthday was in a full year of story.
Title: Re: True Love's Protection
Post by: g33k on January 27, 2026, 12:35:09 AM
... though after Harry was "killed" and Thomas was grieving, Justine comes home with a lesbian girlfriend, they have sex with paves the way for Thomas and her to have relations.  If it was that simple, why hadn't that been done after they realized they truly loved one another?  And why a lesbian?  Wouldn't a one night stand with some guy do? ...
We don't know Justine's "solution" was a lesbian... she could easily have been bi!  I strongly suspect House Raith selects their "Does" for a strongly-middle Kinsey-scale score.

I think Thomas was pretty clearly established as straight, so "some guy" wouldn't much appeal to Thomas (while the "two girls" fantasy is among the very-most-popular amongst straight guys).  Justine (and/or Nemesis) could just have been playing to that.

Seems to be the easiest/obvious explanation, tho:  Thomas being straight (known) and Justine being bi (surmised) makes the "FMF" solution work better than the "MFM" solution.
Title: Re: True Love's Protection
Post by: Bad Alias on January 27, 2026, 12:51:28 AM
I can't say I flat out disagree with any of your specific points about deficits in recent books except maybe about Karrin's death. I didn't really like the idea of them being together. I didn't hate it. (If I was Jim, it would be Elaine, and she'd probably end up being Kumori or a Kumori fake out). I think Karrin had it mostly right in Proven Guilty except for thinking she would grow old with someone. I didn't think she should have counted on growing old when I read Proven Guilty. Point being, I don't think they were a good fit.

I'm not going to even suggest Karrin deserved to die, but I do think either that her character arc should have ended in death or a power up. It looks like we got both. I'm sure she's coming back. Almost certainly in the BAT.

On the Lara/Harry romance, Harry likes her and is attracted to her, but that seems to be about it so far. The only thing that's changed in 12 months is he has a tighter grip on her. Previously, he always ended up with the upper hand anyway. I do see how a genuine romance could develop from here, and I do actually like the idea.
Title: Re: True Love's Protection
Post by: Dina on January 27, 2026, 01:45:24 AM
I think Justine had sex every time she needed to break the protection, but I do not think it was with the same person. So, it would be "Sex with Thomas, sex with a random person" in loop. And that random person could be a lesbian or a man, no matter to anything.

And what LaraBeck (by the way, I love the name "Lara") says about Harry's reaction to Murphy's death fits my feeling  :)
Title: Re: True Love's Protection
Post by: g33k on January 27, 2026, 02:37:52 AM
... I will say this, too, that I found a bit hard to digest in this book: I don't have a problem with Harry grieving, I'll start with that, it was necessary, it is raw and it is painful. I wished we had seen a little less of "Karrin is dead and oh how much this hurts me" and more "Karrin is dead and that's unfair because Karrin was x, y and z" I mean, he tells us more times how wonderful Michael is in any of the books than he thinks about Murphy in this one, when it'd be the appropriate book to do it. There's a lot of things that you feel when you lose someone, yes, guilt, anger, denial, but also longing, and the memories of the best about them replay in your head making you miss them more, want them more. I felt there wasn't enough longing or enough memories. And I still can't believe we didn't learn when her birthday was in a full year of story.

I think Jim feels that Harry was so locked in his grief for the first part of the book, every good memory of Murph just slid immediately to the trauma.  I suspect strongly that Harry summoning Karrin's shade was part of what kept him locked there.

We did see him move on, though; like you, I look forward to seeing more of his good memories of her!
Title: Re: True Love's Protection
Post by: Dina on January 27, 2026, 06:12:02 AM
That makes sense, actually.
Title: Re: True Love's Protection
Post by: Mira on January 27, 2026, 02:55:41 PM
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I will say this, too, that I found a bit hard to digest in this book: I don't have a problem with Harry grieving, I'll start with that, it was necessary, it is raw and it is painful. I wished we had seen a little less of "Karrin is dead and oh how much this hurts me" and more "Karrin is dead and that's unfair because Karrin was x, y and z" I mean, he tells us more times how wonderful Michael is in any of the books than he thinks about Murphy in this one, when it'd be the appropriate book to do it. There's a lot of things that you feel when you lose someone, yes, guilt, anger, denial, but also longing, and the memories of the best about them replay in your head making you miss them more, want them more. I felt there wasn't enough longing or enough memories. And I still can't believe we didn't learn when her birthday was in a full year of story.
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I think I can take a stab at that from my own experience sadly.  Harry is suffering from serious PTSD, bad enough that the whole city came down around his ears and lots of people died violently, that is bad enough, but the woman he loved was shot and died in his arms.  He has PTSD from that! That vision plays over and over in his head, he is trying to function, and he is sort of functioning, but the damnest things will trigger that horrible film clip in his head.  It will be a long time before he heals enough to where the event becomes an old film clip in his head that he can move past and go on to remember the good stuff. 
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We don't know Justine's "solution" was a lesbian... she could easily have been bi!  I strongly suspect House Raith selects their "Does" for a strongly-middle Kinsey-scale score.

I think Thomas was pretty clearly established as straight, so "some guy" wouldn't much appeal to Thomas (while the "two girls" fantasy is among the very-most-popular amongst straight guys).  Justine (and/or Nemesis) could just have been playing to that.

Seems to be the easiest/obvious explanation, tho:  Thomas being straight (known) and Justine being bi (surmised) makes the "FMF" solution work better than the "MFM" solution.

How?  It shouldn't be any different, it just seemed weird.

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I can't say I flat out disagree with any of your specific points about deficits in recent books except maybe about Karrin's death. I didn't really like the idea of them being together. I didn't hate it. (If I was Jim, it would be Elaine, and she'd probably end up being Kumori or a Kumori fake out). I think Karrin had it mostly right in Proven Guilty except for thinking she would grow old with someone. I didn't think she should have counted on growing old when I read Proven Guilty. Point being, I don't think they were a good fit.

I agree with you, I also thought at the time that Murphy had it right when she turned Harry down in Proven Guilty.  Good friends and loving each other as comrades in arms etc. was a good fit, but as lovers? No.  Yes, her growing old as Harry stayed young and hardy is a very good reason from her point of view.  Murphy always likes to be in the middle of any battle Harry was fighting.  Not so much when she is 80 and he is in his prime or still considered a young wizard. just her ego alone wouldn't have been able to handle that.  I don't think Harry saw that, but I think she knew that and was honest with him.   I am not sure if Jim was merely giving into pressure from Shippers or if he had something else in mind.  Actually I think he did, and at some point Harry is going to have another bubble burst and it will hurt.  There are hints in 12 Months that though Harry may have or thought he truly loved Murphy, she didn't truly love him.  She loved him, but not in the true love sense, that's why Harry isn't protected.  It's hinted at in 12 Months, the debate Harry has with his ID, his ID questions whether or not what he and Murphy had was true love.  In his fight with Mab, when Harry tells her that Murphy truly loved him, her answer was, "perhaps."  Then she covers that by saying she didn't  or doesn't have access to that part of Murphy's mind.  You believe that? I don't, and since she said, "perhaps," Mab wasn't lying either

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I'm not going to even suggest Karrin deserved to die, but I do think either that her character arc should have ended in death or a power up. It looks like we got both. I'm sure she's coming back. Almost certainly in the BAT.

The thing is, it got to the point where she didn't do much for the story, in my opinion.  Once she was off the police force, I think Jim found it hard to find a good fit for her.  Actually when she does appear in the BAT, that's when I think she will burst Harry's bubble, that what she felt wasn't true love.  I think she will try and let him down gently, but it will still hurt a lot. 

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On the Lara/Harry romance, Harry likes her and is attracted to her, but that seems to be about it so far. The only thing that's changed in 12 months is he has a tighter grip on her. Previously, he always ended up with the upper hand anyway. I do see how a genuine romance could develop from here, and I do actually like the idea.

The chemistry between the two of them has always been good.  There has always been a degree of mutual respect between them, Lara doesn't lecture Harry.  I think that's what really got old with Murphy for my part.
Title: Re: True Love's Protection
Post by: Bad Alias on January 27, 2026, 08:21:10 PM
Jim was planning on Murphy dying since book 11 or so. He didn't seem sure which book.
Title: Re: True Love's Protection
Post by: Mira on January 27, 2026, 09:55:44 PM
Jim was planning on Murphy dying since book 11 or so. He didn't seem sure which book.

That makes sense.
Title: Re: True Love's Protection
Post by: Torsten on January 28, 2026, 09:58:10 PM
I've been wondering if all of his self loathing makes a difference here. He doesn't think he deserves anything good, let alone love. Maybe that makes a difference.
Title: Re: True Love's Protection
Post by: Bad Alias on January 28, 2026, 11:15:36 PM
I'd say it definitely makes a difference, but a lot of things make a difference.
This is from late in 12 Months:
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: True Love's Protection
Post by: earthexile313 on January 29, 2026, 01:23:25 AM
I've been assuming for awhile that the instance where Harry burned Lara at the end of White Night was a reveal hidden in plain sight. Lara finds it strange and unbelievable that Harry still bears the protection of Susan's love from years ago... but it wasn't from her at all. It was from only moments before.

Because we now know that Harry and Lash 'conceived' Bonea in a moment of love and connection that gave rise to new life. Harry has love for Susan, but the being he went home and wept for that night was Lash. And she let herself be destroyed for the love of him, saving him from Lasciel's damnation. That interaction was what shielded Harry from the Hunger that night.

This new idea about Harry's self-loathing interfering with the protection just seems to make that fit better, to me.
Title: Re: True Love's Protection
Post by: LaraBeck on January 29, 2026, 12:50:07 PM
I've been wondering if all of his self loathing makes a difference here. He doesn't think he deserves anything good, let alone love. Maybe that makes a difference.

That's what Mab's explanation was about.
Title: Re: True Love's Protection
Post by: Mira on January 29, 2026, 02:03:09 PM
Quote
This new idea about Harry's self-loathing interfering with the protection just seems to make that fit better, to me.

Yeah, but... That's why there has been problems with the concept from the start!  How do you define true love?  Harry may feel self loathing at the moment, he is grieving, he feels guilt about all the people that died under his banner that allowed him to fight.  He feels guilty because he wasn't able to keep Murphy physically out of the fight, though it was Mab's banner that made it possible, and ultimately Murphy's choice.. Having said that, what does that have to do with true love? Harry still believes he truly loved Murphy, and whether he thinks he deserves it or not, how does that change Murphy's supposed true love for him?  I say it doesn't, true love isn't a logical emotion, often it defies logic!

So no, I don't think Harry's current feelings of guilt and self-loathing over what has recently happened to him and his actions have anything to do with him not being protected.  In my opinion it was Mab's answer when Harry told her that Murphy truly loved him.. She said, "perhaps."  Lots of wiggle room in that answer without Mab having to lie about it.  If she said that Murphy did, then she would have to explain why Harry wasn't protected.  If she said that Murphy didn't truly love him then she'd make matters worse as far as her knight goes.  She says she didn't have access to that part of Murphy's mind, but that could be avoidance on her part as well.  Mab is good at that, it serves her purpose without having to lie. 

I also think this is the set up for Mirror Mirror, Harry states at one point in 12 Months that he wishes he could go back and redo the part where Murphy get's shot.  I think this is his motive for going back, and that's when he is going to learn that what Murphy felt for him was love, but not true love.