I thought the explanation for why Harry's protection disappeared was disappointing, sort of 'the narrative necessitates Lara be able to touch him and I don't want to bother with Harry having sex with someone else so there it is.'
A better explanation than Mab's would have been: "The protection is a feedback loop between the lover and the beloved. When one of them dies it fades quicker than if mere distance separates them." That gets Jim out of the corner he painted himself into without making it seem that ones later loves don't matter as much, which is an odd position to espouse when writing about characters with multi-century lifespans.
That really doesn't work either, Harry still burned Lara's lips in White Night five years after his split with Susan. True, she was still alive, but he had had no contact with her at all in all those years. To my mind, the love you feel lingers more after one loses a loved one to death than a split up, because you are still loving the memory and there is no distraction from it.
I thought the explanation for why Harry's protection disappeared was disappointing, sort of 'the narrative necessitates Lara be able to touch him and I don't want to bother with Harry having sex with someone else so there it is.'
To a degree, the soft-retconning could be attributed to Harry learning more about how the world really works... but in this case I can't buy it. It's too different from what we saw Harry go through after Susan, or even the way we saw Lara get burned one book ago, and I really hate throwing doubt on Murphy's feelings after she died. We got books and books of build up between those two, it feels insincere to even imply "sour grapes" now. It's not just kicking someone when they're down, they're dead, and that just seems mean, in a way the saga typically hasn't been before.
As a widow of a marriage of over forty years, it's been my experience that you don't stop loving someone just because they have died. And my husband died ten years ago, for Harry it had not even been a month since Murphy died! Then there was the whole thing about Murphy's shade not able to move on because of how she felt for Harry.. So yeah, a kiss from Lara should have burned her face off! Maybe Mab was messed with that if she can? Because she would also know about the true love thing. The other thing that bothered me was I thought that Murphy went to Valhalla?
About Murphy being in Valhalla, she is. Her shade is not really her, it's just an impression of her at the time of her death. So, nothing in the book contradicts that the real Murphy is in Valhalla.
I still found it so odd that Harry gets Vadderung on the phone (is that easy to communicate with him apparently) but there's no question about Karrin, no intent to find out more, at the very least, to confirm that she's okay?
There are some weird choices in this book, IMO.
Murphy is in Valhalla but her shade isn't? What is her shade then? Her soul? What? So this might be what the rule is about, by that I mean, if Murphy's shade or soul has moved on, her body might return as a soldier for Odin, but it really isn't her. So when and if Harry meets up with Murphy as one of Odin's soldiers, it's just her body and not her? That should be interesting.
A couple of more things about the true love problem, not just the Harry/Susan love and Lara's lips burning after five years of them splitting, but the elaborate moves Thomas and Justine went through to keep from buring him. To the point where she was wearing a latex suit so Thomas could touch her, then in Changes she has lesbian sex and finally they could have sex? You mean the two of them were madly in love for all that time and they didn't have sex? Or Thomas would be okay with Justine being unfaithful with another woman but not a man? I think it was a cool idea at the time that Jim wrote it, and used it from time to time, but in the long run of the series wasn't really practical.. So now after the whole Murphy/Harry thing that so many fans were heavily invested in, not like they were with Susan/Harry, we get this weak explanation as to why Lara's face isn't burning off now.
No, the shade is not her soul, this was explained in Ghost Story and is again pointed out in Twelve Months. This is not what the "rule" (einherjar) thing is about. Her shade is not Murphy, it's an impression of her, a copy of her at the time of her death. It won't have nothing to do with her memory or who Murphy truly is or where her soul is. Her soul is effectively in Valhalla, for all we know.
If Murphy is to return, it will be her, maybe slightly changed due to the new mantle of power, but it will be her. Just like Harry is still Harry with the mantle. It makes no sense, otherwise, to collect a honored warrior for their qualities, just to null them by turning them into people that they weren't. There's no point in that, if that was the case, they'd collect anyone.
I could argue though, that these comments about Murphy "holding herself back" might be either 1. to seed doubt in their love, or 2. to seed the possibility that nothing will stop that woman from coming back for Harry, because they have unfinished business.
No, the shade is not her soul, this was explained in Ghost Story and is again pointed out in Twelve Months. This is not what the "rule" (einherjar) thing is about. Her shade is not Murphy, it's an impression of her, a copy of her at the time of her death. It won't have nothing to do with her memory or who Murphy truly is or where her soul is. Her soul is effectively in Valhalla, for all we know.
That doesn't make sense to me, sorry but it doesn't.. An impression of her, but not her? So why the need to move on? It's her soul that moves on. As an einherjar she won't have any mantle of power, non of the einherjar we've met have any power, they have their skills as warriors, this is why they were selected, but they have no power.
Also, think back to Grave Peril, where Harry purposefully flatlined to create a shade of himself, a copy at the moment of (near) death, to help him double-team Kravos' nightmare ghost.
The shade accomplished his unfinished business when they won, and just faded away. The actual Harry returned to his body thanks to the girls keeping it viable with CPR.
Again, if Murphy was holding herself back presumably out of love for Harry and his love still held true, then it shouldn't matter whether Lara had just eaten or not, her lips still should have burned off.
Yes, I imagine Murphy's shade faded away when Harry "let go" of her.
I'm not done the book quite yet, so granted I might be wrong on this if there's confirmation I've yet to get to that Karrin's shade does just dissipate.
But I'd actually be kind of surprised if that's her fate. She seems like a *prime* recruit for Uriel's Shade PD, that Harry got a brief look at in Ghost Story. Working with the ghosts of her father and her old partner, staying in (albeit a very different theater of) the fight? I'd be surprised if she's not inducted already, and Harry's summonings were just pulling her away from working cases.
I could see her maybe ceasing to take Harry's calls anymore if she starts to think that contact is doing more harm than good to him, though.
I think it's souls that work with Uriel, not shades or ghosts if they are souless.. It all gets very confusing.
I'm not properly sure whether Murphy pere or Carmichael were full souls or just shades, but Uriel certainly seemed to think he could use Sir Stuart. Wasn't he a shade? Mort said his retinue were shades, and almost any entity he encountered who thought it was the real person was just in denial.
Let me just point out this interview (recent) where Jim talks about the love protection.
Watch from about min 38:40
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xg5GxQb_rXo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xg5GxQb_rXo)
Let me know your thoughts if you figure out something from it related to this, what's your interpretation.
Though, I should say, I find JB to be somewhat inconsistent lately.
Things would have been easier if Harry had not burnt Lara in PT/BG. Not True Love. But since it happened, the easiest way to deal with it was not to have the long kiss scene in TM. Have Lara began feeding and then burn. She still would have tasted Harry and liked it and the rest of the book would be more or less the same, only the sexy scene with all its effect in Harry's mind would be shorter.
Well, my experience is different. I never believed Harry loved Murphy, at least not True Love, so I was surprised when he actually burnt Lara. I always thought their love was the love of a dear friend or sibling. More than many romantic loves, granted, but not True Love.
Watch from about min 38:40 it's a couple of minutes where he talks about this.He does say that Susan is still out there. Murphy isn't. He does say Susan is still out there and Harry still pines for her. So maybe the person has to be alive and there has to be a certain present emotional stance towards them. Jim said Harry didn't know about Maggie. That suggests that knowing about Maggie would change his emotional stance enough to break the protection.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xg5GxQb_rXo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xg5GxQb_rXo)
Jim said Harry didn't know about Maggie. That suggests that knowing about Maggie would change his emotional stance enough to break the protection.
... though after Harry was "killed" and Thomas was grieving, Justine comes home with a lesbian girlfriend, they have sex with paves the way for Thomas and her to have relations. If it was that simple, why hadn't that been done after they realized they truly loved one another? And why a lesbian? Wouldn't a one night stand with some guy do? ...We don't know Justine's "solution" was a lesbian... she could easily have been bi! I strongly suspect House Raith selects their "Does" for a strongly-middle Kinsey-scale score.
... I will say this, too, that I found a bit hard to digest in this book: I don't have a problem with Harry grieving, I'll start with that, it was necessary, it is raw and it is painful. I wished we had seen a little less of "Karrin is dead and oh how much this hurts me" and more "Karrin is dead and that's unfair because Karrin was x, y and z" I mean, he tells us more times how wonderful Michael is in any of the books than he thinks about Murphy in this one, when it'd be the appropriate book to do it. There's a lot of things that you feel when you lose someone, yes, guilt, anger, denial, but also longing, and the memories of the best about them replay in your head making you miss them more, want them more. I felt there wasn't enough longing or enough memories. And I still can't believe we didn't learn when her birthday was in a full year of story.
I will say this, too, that I found a bit hard to digest in this book: I don't have a problem with Harry grieving, I'll start with that, it was necessary, it is raw and it is painful. I wished we had seen a little less of "Karrin is dead and oh how much this hurts me" and more "Karrin is dead and that's unfair because Karrin was x, y and z" I mean, he tells us more times how wonderful Michael is in any of the books than he thinks about Murphy in this one, when it'd be the appropriate book to do it. There's a lot of things that you feel when you lose someone, yes, guilt, anger, denial, but also longing, and the memories of the best about them replay in your head making you miss them more, want them more. I felt there wasn't enough longing or enough memories. And I still can't believe we didn't learn when her birthday was in a full year of story.
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We don't know Justine's "solution" was a lesbian... she could easily have been bi! I strongly suspect House Raith selects their "Does" for a strongly-middle Kinsey-scale score.
I think Thomas was pretty clearly established as straight, so "some guy" wouldn't much appeal to Thomas (while the "two girls" fantasy is among the very-most-popular amongst straight guys). Justine (and/or Nemesis) could just have been playing to that.
Seems to be the easiest/obvious explanation, tho: Thomas being straight (known) and Justine being bi (surmised) makes the "FMF" solution work better than the "MFM" solution.
I can't say I flat out disagree with any of your specific points about deficits in recent books except maybe about Karrin's death. I didn't really like the idea of them being together. I didn't hate it. (If I was Jim, it would be Elaine, and she'd probably end up being Kumori or a Kumori fake out). I think Karrin had it mostly right in Proven Guilty except for thinking she would grow old with someone. I didn't think she should have counted on growing old when I read Proven Guilty. Point being, I don't think they were a good fit.
I'm not going to even suggest Karrin deserved to die, but I do think either that her character arc should have ended in death or a power up. It looks like we got both. I'm sure she's coming back. Almost certainly in the BAT.
On the Lara/Harry romance, Harry likes her and is attracted to her, but that seems to be about it so far. The only thing that's changed in 12 months is he has a tighter grip on her. Previously, he always ended up with the upper hand anyway. I do see how a genuine romance could develop from here, and I do actually like the idea.
Jim was planning on Murphy dying since book 11 or so. He didn't seem sure which book.
I've been wondering if all of his self loathing makes a difference here. He doesn't think he deserves anything good, let alone love. Maybe that makes a difference.
This new idea about Harry's self-loathing interfering with the protection just seems to make that fit better, to me.
I've been assuming for awhile that the instance where Harry burned Lara at the end of White Night was a reveal hidden in plain sight. Lara finds it strange and unbelievable that Harry still bears the protection of Susan's love from years ago... but it wasn't from her at all. It was from only moments before.It's an interesting theory but I don't think it holds together, for two reasons:
Because we now know that Harry and Lash 'conceived' Bonea in a moment of love and connection that gave rise to new life. Harry has love for Susan, but the being he went home and wept for that night was Lash. And she let herself be destroyed for the love of him, saving him from Lasciel's damnation. That interaction was what shielded Harry from the Hunger that night.
This new idea about Harry's self-loathing interfering with the protection just seems to make that fit better, to me.
I also think this is the set up for Mirror Mirror, Harry states at one point in 12 Months that he wishes he could go back and redo the part where Murphy get's shot. I think this is his motive for going back, and that's when he is going to learn that what Murphy felt for him was love, but not true love.Mirror Mirror isn't a time travel book and our Harry doesn't choose to go. The alternate Harry pulls him. Book 22 is going to be the time travel book so Jim can go back and fix all the continuity errors.
Mirror Mirror isn't a time travel book and our Harry doesn't choose to go. The alternate Harry pulls him. Book 22 is going to be the time travel book so Jim can go back and fix all the continuity errors.
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Thanks, I only know what I have read here and time travel was one of the possibilities, suggested for Mirror.QuoteAnd WoJ has stated that the "True Love" protection can only arise between two equals, not from an unequal relation (such as parent/child, etc); any form of dependence prevents it. I don't think Lasciel's Shadow -- nor "Lash" -- can in any way be a "equal" to Harry, as she was wholly-dependent on Harry for her very existence.
Define "equals" in a relationship. I wouldn't call Harry and Susan equals nor Harry and Murphy, and honestly were Justine and Thomas really equals? If dependence prevents the protection, then there was a problem in all three of the above cases. You could say that Murphy/Harry may have been the most equal, but in a lot of ways not.
There are a lot of people here who keep saying it's a time travel book. I don't know why.
Alternate universe, Evil Harry brings Harries over to take the fall for him
(I've always thought he leaves their bodies behind). The difference is caused by a choice "near the end of Grave Peril." The Red Court won the war.
Yeah, but... That's why there has been problems with the concept from the start! How do you define true love? Harry may feel self loathing at the moment, he is grieving, he feels guilt about all the people that died under his banner that allowed him to fight. He feels guilty because he wasn't able to keep Murphy physically out of the fight, though it was Mab's banner that made it possible, and ultimately Murphy's choice.. Having said that, what does that have to do with true love? Harry still believes he truly loved Murphy, and whether he thinks he deserves it or not, how does that change Murphy's supposed true love for him? I say it doesn't, true love isn't a logical emotion, often it defies logic!
So no, I don't think Harry's current feelings of guilt and self-loathing over what has recently happened to him and his actions have anything to do with him not being protected.
Because we now know that Harry and Lash 'conceived' Bonea in a moment of love and connection that gave rise to new life. Harry has love for Susan, but the being he went home and wept for that night was Lash. And she let herself be destroyed for the love of him, saving him from Lasciel's damnation. That interaction was what shielded Harry from the Hunger that night.
And WoJ has stated that the "True Love" protection can only arise between two equals, not from an unequal relation (such as parent/child, etc); any form of dependence prevents it.
I do belive what Harry and Murphy had was True Love™, I mean, to me if what Susan and Harry had was by canon standards was, Harry and Murphy better had it too, it was, IMO, a much more believable love story.
However I have problems with whether or not she felt it for him. Murphy's original reason for not wanting to have a relationship with Harry is very valid, and that hadn't changed by the time she died.The problems were never whether or not she loved Harry.
"When I am an elderly 80, Harry will be still a young wizard in his prime."That's the one thing from her Proven Guilty speech I never agreed with.
This is just speculation on my part but I suspect that Murphy becoming a Valkyrie stopped the protection. We know that people swapped bits of souls during physical contact which sometimes leads to protection from WCV. Odin is giving Murphy unusual afterlife which presumably includes her soul somehow. Mab and Odin are allied and, after Odin does something to Murphy, Harry is now free to marry Lara. I think Odin helped Mab change Murphy in a way that frees Harry up.
"She was a woman who knew her mind. That had nothing to do with you, wizard."
That's the one thing from her Proven Guilty speech I never agreed with.
And we know they had True Love because Harry burned Lara in Peace Talks.
Murphy isn't becoming a Valkyrie, she is becoming a Einherjar, not the same thing!Lately I've wondered if she might become a Valkyrie. Every Einherjar we've seen has been a man. In the Murphy short story, Gard hinted that Murphy fit the Valkyrie mold. I don't think she'll be a Valkyrie, but I do think it's possible.
It shouldn't have stopped with Murphy's death then.Well, it did stop with Murphy's death and Dresden's emotional state. Jim hinted Susan's death and/or Harry's knowledge of her betrayal of him, or even him not loving her anymore could have ended the protection. Check out this video a little after 38 minutes in. https://youtu.be/Xg5GxQb_rXo?si=ns4nv7dcaevqduvm (https://youtu.be/Xg5GxQb_rXo?si=ns4nv7dcaevqduvm)
it means that Jim is watering down the concept of True Love™ right? Suddenly, he has other ideas in mind (Lara) and the concept has stopped being useful so we're eroding its meaning now. Because it went from this super rare, super important experience shared between two people, that was so spirtual and physically important that it left a literal mark on the participants, and now it can be destroyed with pretty much anything.But it isn't one thing. It's at least two, in this case. Murphy's death and Harry's self loathing. Mab's statement suggests that Susan's death might even play a part in it.
Time does not affect it, doesn't it? That is why Harry was protected several years after Maggie was conceived.Harry was more affected in Blood Rites than Arturo. As you can see from the quotes below, Arturo is barely affected and Harry is strongly affected. But even though Harry is affected, he's beyond control or feeding.
“Arturo,” she said warmly. She took his hands, and they did more social cheek kissing. I shook my head while they did, and managed to shove my libido out of the driver’s seat of my brain. Captain of my own soul (even if my pants were considering mutiny), I began focusing my thoughts, building up a barrier to shield them. “You are an angel,” Arturo said to her. His voice was steady and kind and not at all that of a man having most of his blood channeled south of his belly button. How the hell could he not have reacted to her presence? “An angel to come here so quickly. To help me.”
“The last time you were with anyone, it was with Susan. You love each other. Her touch, her love is still upon you, and still protecting you.”Emphasis added.
“If that’s true, then why I am still adjusting my pants every time Lara walks by?”
Thomas shrugged. “You’re human. She’s lovely and you haven’t gotten any in a while. But trust me, Harry. None of the White Court could wholly control or feed from you now.”
I frowned. “But it was a year ago.”
Thomas shrugged. “If there hasn’t been anyone else, then it’s still the strongest touch of another life on your own.”
There's not much in the series before this point about how true love protection works except time weakens it and sex with another breaks it.
In any case, if suddenly self-doubt/self-loathing (Harry) or a measure of resentment toward the other partner (Susan), can kill the True Love protection, it means that Jim is watering down the concept of True Love™ right? Suddenly, he has other ideas in mind (Lara) and the concept has stopped being useful so we're eroding its meaning now. Because it went from this super rare, super important experience shared between two people, that was so spirtual and physically important that it left a literal mark on the participants, and now it can be destroyed with pretty much anything. It's a disappointment, to me, and makes me trust Jim a lot less.
Here is how Mab’s explanation works. I can say that if Murphy had survived the battle, but she had been severely injured, maybe crippled for life, Harry would have still blamed himself and felt unworthy of being loved, because feeling guilty is what Harry does, but Murphy remaining alive would have held the love protection together, even though it would take time before Harry once again felt worthy of her love. Simply feeling unworthy of being loved only ends true love protection if the other partner isn’t there to help sustain it. So, Mab’s explanation can work, sort of, but damn it’s messy.
“My Knight. Of course I am aware of love protection and how it protected you from Lara Raith and others of her kind. I was once mortal once. I know what love is and I can recognize it in others, as I recognized your brother was in love. But love and emotions in general are not where I excel. I can tell you what I know, but in truth my sister the Summer Queen is better suited to answer this question, but I do not recommend that you seek her council in this matter. She lacks my sense of humor; and frankly, I don’t think she likes you.”
Then, whether Jim had Mab give the exact same explanation of how love protection works or came up with a slightly different explanation, it would have created some wiggle room in the reader’s mind. I think a lot of people would be much more happy if Mab’s explanation seemed incomplete or was questionable because Mab didn’t fully grasp how love protection works. Then we could make up our own explanations to fill in the gaps. I think the way Jim had Mab explain love protection to Harry, it seemed watered down or as others hasn’t put it, less special than our earlier understanding.
Not only messy, but true love doesn't work that way, if a person loves their partner truly, it doesn't matter how the partner feels about it, it continues. True love isn't logical, that's what sets it apart. Just a thought, it's been centuries since or if she ever felt it that Mab has had felt true love for anyone.
It does matter though, that is why Harry was not protected when he was with Luccio. He Loved her but she did not.
Ah, it all depends of what you care about. For example, the inconsistency in the soulgaze and the true love thing bothered me, but I still love the book, it is actually of my favourites right now and I had no time to reread it yet. It's just that for me the good parts far outweigh the bad ones.
And yes, Harry realizes what is going on with Luccio because he is genuinely shocked he is not protected from whampires. He is sure of his love, so he knows she does not love him so much and he begins thinking why she seems so perfectly in love if she is not. And he begins actually thinking. But, we can argue that Harry himself may be wrong. He may think that protection only comes for people mutually in love, but he may be wrong. I don't remember a whampire explicitly saying so.
Not only messy, but true love doesn't work that way, if a person loves their partner truly, it doesn't matter how the partner feels about it, it continues. True love isn't logical, that's what sets it apart.True Love and True Love Protection aren't the same thing.
About the overall book, for me Battle Ground was that book that had more things that I liked vs the things I didn't like, even though the thing I didn't like, I hated with a passion. Twelve Months is more like a 50/50 and I'm being very generous there. And again, I repeat that is not the lack of action or a lack of "a main villain" like I see pointed out in reviews that are not so favorable of this book around the internet, it is about other deeper things, some of which I've mentioned here.That is what people is complaining about? Not my case, clearly.
Regarding having more action or a main villain, I do think I would have liked 12 Months more if there was an overarching plot moving through the year other than Dresden's healing.
I was so sure this is what we were going to get, and instead it was 10 months of little stories. I don't mind either, but I have to concede the point to all the people who thought we would get 12 short stories.The weird part for me is that it also doesn't feel like a collection of short stories either.
Jim was planning on Murphy dying since book 11 or so. He didn't seem sure which book.
This is a minor point but I think it's funny. Well, maybe more confusing than funny.
I've seen a video that came out sometime after Battle Ground was released; probably in 2021, where Jim answered the question, "When did you decide to kill Murphy." And you are correct, Jim said it was around time Turn Coat was released.
However, there is a new interview video that was recorded a few days before TM was released where Jim was asked the same question. Jim's answer: "I always planed to kill her off."
I have no idea which answer is true; and theoretically, they could both be lies or both be partially true. Example: Jim could have made the decision to kill Murphy off after he finished writing Blood Rites; or any other novel before Turn Coat, in which case both statements are false. On the other hand, Jim may have always known he was going to kill off Murphy but he didn't decide which novel it would happen in until after Turn Coat was released. In that case both statements contain part of the truth. I would guess the second scenario is probably the correct one, but only Jim knows for sure.
I have no idea which answer is true; and theoretically, they could both be lies or both be partially true. Example: Jim could have made the decision to kill Murphy off after he finished writing Blood Rites; or any other novel before Turn Coat, in which case both statements are false. On the other hand, Jim may have always known he was going to kill off Murphy but he didn't decide which novel it would happen in until after Turn Coat was released. In that case both statements contain part of the truth. I would guess the second scenario is probably the correct one, but only Jim knows for sure.
While Mab appears to know the nuts and bolts of how true love protection works and why it may fail to work, would she have known that Harry was no longer protected? She might have known, but we can't be certain.
You forget, that Twelve Months explicitly confirmed on page, that Mab *knows* *exactly* what Harry thinks and *feels* at a given moment. Mab would 120% *know* whether Harry is protected or not, otherwise, her plan to get her (Lara) addicted to Harry wouldn't be even possible in the first place.I think she is only sometimes aware. She's often surprised by what Harry does or says to her.
I think she is only sometimes aware. She's often surprised by what Harry does or says to her.It's quite likely that she has to actively focus or deliberately recall such information post-facto, but it is definitely firmly established, that such knowledge is absolutely part of either her "natural" abilities or her Winter Queen intellectus.
In regards to Mab often being surprised by Harry's (re)actions, that's quite logical, because even people themselves don't really know how they will act, based on what they think or what they (think they) feel, much less other humans. What Mab most certainly can do (and does all the time) is calculate (and far better than most humans can) based on the thoughts and feelings of others, since while she no longer experiences those things exactly the same way humans do, like she said: "[she] was mortal once."
such knowledge is absolutely part of either her "natural" abilities or her Winter Queen intellectus.I don't think the case is that strong. How she knows what Harry is thinking isn't known.
... she absolutely knows whether Harry is or isn't protected at any given point in time.
Jim could have given Lara a second reason for giving her demon an extra heavy feeding. Extra feeding for her demon should also give Lara more vampire mojo if she got into a serious fight and needed to heal quickly, without having to immediately feed again. In this scenario Lara's blues eyes don't make her less dangerous, they make her more dangerous.
So when Lara gets annoyed with Harry at her party, when she gives Harry the kiss, he has the same reaction we saw in the book, but this time Lara pulls back in sudden pain as blisters break out on her lips and the skin closest to her lips. Then Lara gets a determined look on her face, the blisters disappear, her eyes are still blue, but a lighter shade of blue than before and Lara kisses Harry a second time and he's powerless to stop her. When Lara again pulls back in pain; maybe she curses, but again she heals herself and her eyes are now dark grey. Harry is all but on his knees at this point. Then Lara tells Harry pretty much the same thing she said in the book, but somewhat modified. Lara tells Harry that she understands he is in pain, that he isn't at the top of his game, but she needs him to focus on the task at hand. Both of them are in danger, and if she needs to do so, Lara can enslave Harry without taking him to bed in order to get him to do his job. Lara gets more energy with sex included, but it isn't necessary when her main goal is just to gain control of someone. Lara tells Harry that just a couple more kisses will do the trick and she could do that right now, but she doesn't want that. Lara tells Harry she doesn't want to offend Winter and she thinks Harry will be more effective "if you can think for yourself."
This way we could have had a more dangerous Lara and avoided Mab's clunky explanation of how true love protection can fail. We know it was going to fail if or when Lara and Harry get married. I don't think much was achieved by having it fail in this book. Plus, the reversal of fortune when Harry unknowingly addicted Lara to Winter would have hit that much harder.
I really don't appreciate how muddy JB made the concept of the true love protection in this book, or how it felt like a clumsy but deliverate attempt to mess with the memory of what Harry and Murphy had. I feel it was unnecessary.
In finding fault with Mab's explanation, some readers are saying it made far more sense for Lara to get burned when she kissed Harry. I think it was Mira who said, "Lara should have gotten her face burned off." That may be going a bit too far, but in general I don't disagree with those opinions. But there is something else going on this scene that everyone seems to have missed, and this missing element is the real problem. When I put this together, I realized there was an alternative scenario Jim could have written that would have made Mab's tortured explanation of true love protection unnecessary. In fact, it's so obvious to me that maybe Jim considered taking this route but for some reason rejected it and we got what we got. I'll get to that point last.
But only sex with the loved one can seal True Love, right?
That is why is so difficult to explain what happened to Harry's protection, he was protected in BG. Then he is not. Murphy died, but that is never given as an explanation for the protection breaking, and Harry clearly did not sex with everyone unless he did it and forgot (not the first time it would happen in the show) or stopped loving Murphy. That is why Mab explained the thing about Harry not feeling worthy and being guilty and all that. And...that is what many of us don't like.Yes, while Harry may fully have loved Murphy, she loved him, but may still have had some reservations, maybe going back to Proven Guilty when she turned him down the first time. The reason I say this is Mab sort of hedged as well. While no, she didn't say Murphy didn't love him, her answer to Harry when he asked was, "perhaps." Then she says she couldn't see into that part of Murphy's mind, but do you really believe that? I don't, and while Mab cannot directly lie, she can deceive or hedge. The clincher is when she tells Harry that Murphy made her own decisions and her own woman. So I think that Mab didn't want to outright upset her Knight or argue with him because her object is to get him together with Lara, so she came up with her vague explanation and answered with a "perhaps."
Yeah. Whatever True Love is in the Dresden Files, Harry and Murphy had it.
And it faded very quickly..Yep. I think most of the posts here are people arguing with what we see in the books because it's not what we thought it was. What happened in 12 Months isn't inconsistent with anything we've read in the Dresden Files or anything I've seen Jim say elsewhere.
I need to reread 12months yet. Was Lara afraid of burning in 12M? If she isn't , we can safely say that True Love is broken by death of the person you loved. If Lara was still worried about burning, even after Murphy's death, then we know death alone cannot destroy True Love.She seemed to be on their first date, but not on the Halloween date.
Yep. I think most of the posts here are people arguing with what we see in the books because it's not what we thought it was. What happened in 12 Months isn't inconsistent with anything we've read in the Dresden Files or anything I've seen Jim say elsewhere.
Did I think True Love Protection could be broken by death and/or depression (perhaps a very specific kind of depression)? No. Can I find anything in the books to say otherwise? Also no. And I tried.
Yes, I considered Harry could have been mind-wiped.
We all know that true love burns a White Court Vampire, that true love before the first feeding can block or kill the Hunger Demon, who happens to be an Outsider all together. Why? That never has been fully explained.
No, I meant mind-wiped into not remembering that he had sex with someone else.
I'll be surprised if we get any explanation that's satisfying. Well, beyond a long internal monologue by Dresden that rests on a foundation built on a reading of 'All You Need is Love.' I'm not expecting the readers will get anything close to an explanation of how the universe Butcher has built all works and comes together logically (even one that's at the descriptive/predictive/Newton level and not at the fundamental/'why does it work that way' level).I am ok with True Love Conquers the Outsiders but I hope the unresolved loose threads are not "a lot".
After Twelve Months, I have a creeping feeling that the conclusion of the Dresden Files will reveal that the entire series was 'True Love Conquers the Outsiders.' If that's all there is, then let's just keep reading and hope for a rollicking, enjoyable remainder for this yarn even if at the end we're left with a lot of Lost-esque unresolved loose threads.
I am ok with True Love Conquers the Outsiders but I hope the unresolved loose threads are not "a lot".
Maybe I could be OK with 'True Love Conquers the Outsiders' (though I much prefer a resolve that's less of a trope), but so far only True Romantic Love has proven to have a negative effect on Outsiders. The love for one's children hasn't been shown to have any effect on White Court Hunger, and the lore certainly doesn't suggest that it does. True Romantic Love, maybe also required to be reciprocated and the relationship consummated, as the Outsiders' silver bullet would certainly be an interesting choice.
Yes, you are right Mira. It is clear that True Love does not protect from nemfection, or that previously nemfected people cannot feel True Love and be protected by it. About the burning, I think true Love killed the hunger in the unexperienced vampire, no matter if they killed the first feed or not. Only, it is very difficult for that vampire not to kill, as he has not experience in control.
If their first time is True Love, then the Hunger dies. It doesn't matter if the first feeding is fatal. Irwin and Connie didn't have true love, but the feeding didn't kill Irwin because he has so much life force.
“The first time they feed, they don’t really know it’s coming. They have no control over it, no restraint—and whoever they feed on dies as a result.”
“Because the last time I helped Irwin out, I remember being struck by the power of his aura when he was only fourteen. A long-term draining spell that should have killed him only left him sleepy
“My point is,” I said, “the kid’s got a life force like few I’ve seen. When Connie’s Hunger awakened, she fed on him without any kind of restraint, and he wound up with nothing worse than a hangover. Could be that he could handle a life with her just fine.”
“It means that what his father told him was a lie. It means that maybe he didn’t have to be like he is. It means that he’s been lying to himself. About everything.” River Shoulders spread his hands, palms up, as if presenting the fact. “That kind of father has to make his children in his own image. He has to make the lie true.
What Thomas said doesn't matter. If a White Court vampire feeds on a human without restraint, the feeding is fatal. Every first time is without restraint because they don't know to restrain themselves. It's possible that the first feeding doesn't have to be fatal at all. It's a lie told to every member of the White Court. Most probably even believe it.
The reason Connie's first feeding wasn't fatal is that she didn't feed on a human. She fed on a Bigfoot with an insane amount of energy.
Connie could be enslaved to Irwin, but I think the direct feeding without sex that she's doing with Harry is different. Like the difference between a liquid diet and eating solid food. Her Hunger can't get that kind of feeding even if she kills.
I think the true love protection is not removed by not loving one self, but is put in a non-functional state. Perhaps especially in this case where Harry does not feel he is worthy of Murphs love, because he feels responsible for her death. So if the kiss is not enough to loose it, perhaps it is back by the end of 12 months, now that he can love himself and feel worthy of love.
When Susan becomes infected at the end of grave peril, book 3, it is not untill blood rites, book 6, that we know he is protected by true love. There is no way to know if he was protected when he was at his lowest in the year following grave peril.
Regarding Mabs comment about it happening twice. I would have to listen to it again, but I think it referred to how it was the second time that felt responsible for the death of his love (third time if we count Lash, and for a long time je also thought he killed Elaine). That problably has an effect on whether or not one feels worthy of being loved.
I think the true love protection is not removed by not loving one self, but is put in a non-functional state. Perhaps especially in this case where Harry does not feel he is worthy of Murphs love, because he feels responsible for her death. So if the kiss is not enough to loose it, perhaps it is back by the end of 12 months, now that he can love himself and feel worthy of love.This is a very clever approach. I actually hope someone makes this known to Jim, just in case he has not thought of this :)
When Susan becomes infected at the end of grave peril, book 3, it is not untill blood rites, book 6, that we know he is protected by true love. There is no way to know if he was protected when he was at his lowest in the year following grave peril.
Regarding Mabs comment about it happening twice. I would have to listen to it again, but I think it referred to how it was the second time that felt responsible for the death of his love (third time if we count Lash, and for a long time je also thought he killed Elaine). That problably has an effect on whether or not one feels worthy of being loved.
Regarding the rarity of true love protection. As far as I remember the only place the rarity of it is mentioned is Thomas saying something along the lines of "it is rarer than you think" when him and Harry first talks about it. I think that also has something to do with the humans the white court interacts with. If they targeted normal couples living like the Carpenters they would problably encounter it more often, but they target young people at night clubs and powerfull people.
You have to wonder then why the White Court doesn't keep a number of Big Foots in their herd?Probably because of River Shoulders's reactions in the short story. And I don't think the White Court has much info on them. They appear to have been in the Americas since shortly after River Shoulders's birth. The White Court started in Italy, probably after that. In Peace Talks, it appears that the Forest People don't really interact with the supernatural community. Connie's dad didn't seem to know what he was getting into.
But only sex with the loved one can seal True Love, right?IIRC, there is WoJ somewhere that having sex isn't essential to get the protection; it's just the easiest and most-common way for it to happen.
IIRC, there is WoJ somewhere that having sex isn't essential to get the protection; it's just the easiest and most-common way for it to happen.
... Connie didn't kill Irwin because he had too much life force? Really? You'd think it would be a banquet for Connie's Hunger Demon and it would want even more. I thought that was the point when Harry fed Lara's Hunger demon, so is Connie now slave to Irwin? ...Connie was feeding on Irwin's "life-force." He just has a huge amount of it... more than her Hunger was capable of eating.
... After Twelve Months, I have a creeping feeling that the conclusion of the Dresden Files will reveal that the entire series was 'True Love Conquers the Outsiders.'Doubtful.
There's also recent WOJ (from last year or January) where he says that both needs are necessary, the physical and the spiritual ...Huh.
I remember clearly like many years ago there was a WoJ that said that sex was needed for achieving the Protection because something something related with the potential of creating life. Then, later, someone asked him if that meant homosexual couples could not be protected, so Jim backpedaled, mentioned that Protection is not an exact science, that it could be achieved by not penetrative sex and things like that. So, he mostly forgot about the creating life thing.