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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: RobReece on January 16, 2026, 01:31:36 AM

Title: Thomas and the Svartelves
Post by: RobReece on January 16, 2026, 01:31:36 AM
Will the discovery that Nemesis was behind the attack on Etri, will that remove the charges and enmity against Thomas?
Title: Re: Thomas and the Svartelves
Post by: Dina on January 16, 2026, 01:54:59 AM
I don't knoe if the Svartelves know about Nemesis, but even so, Thomas acted on his own free will. He was deceived, but he made the choice. So in my opinion, it won't change a lot.
Title: Re: Thomas and the Svartelves
Post by: Lord Kinbote on January 16, 2026, 02:35:41 PM
Maybe all that buys Thomas some measure of undertanding and leniency from the Svartelves, but does that help how the Svartelves view Harry?
Title: Re: Thomas and the Svartelves
Post by: Mira on January 16, 2026, 02:56:29 PM
Maybe all that buys Thomas some measure of undertanding and leniency from the Svartelves, but does that help how the Svartelves view Harry?

We have to see, if Thomas has a trial a lot will come out. 
Title: Re: Thomas and the Svartelves
Post by: Mr. Mouse on January 16, 2026, 05:13:15 PM
I could see the duress being a reason for the svartelves to forego killing Thomas, but he still murdered one of their own and a very high weregild would still be demanded.
Title: Re: Thomas and the Svartelves
Post by: g33k on January 16, 2026, 05:16:39 PM
... if Thomas has a trial a lot will come out. 
Might come out... but we've seen how political some of these supernatural trials can be; remember how much the findings of Morgan's trial were so complete and comprehensive!

Plus, even the Biggest Names in the supernatural world are reluctant to speak the name "Nemesis" so I can't really see it going to trial without all of them making sure their people know to keep some details & Names buried.
Title: Re: Thomas and the Svartelves
Post by: Mira on January 16, 2026, 06:03:31 PM
Quote
I could see the duress being a reason the svartelves to forego killing Thomas, but he still murdered one of their own and a very high weregild would still be demanded.

This, so who is going to pay it?  The White Court, since Thomas is a vampire, or the White Council because Thomas is the half brother of a then White Council member, Harry and the grandson of Eb who not only is a member of the White Council, but a sitting member of the Senior Council.. Even if Eb claims he didn't know, would they believe him?
Title: Re: Thomas and the Svartelves
Post by: g33k on January 17, 2026, 01:12:08 AM
This, so who is going to pay it?  The White Court, since Thomas is a vampire, or the White Council because Thomas is the half brother of a then White Council member, Harry and the grandson of Eb who not only is a member of the White Council, but a sitting member of the Senior Council.. Even if Eb claims he didn't know, would they believe him? 
The Whamps (specifically, Lara) would pay it.
The White Council would not -- Thomas is a Vamp, it's Vamp-business.
I suspect Eb hates the very idea of Thomas existing, and would just as soon the Svartalven vengeance erased that blot on the McCoy family honor.
 
Title: Re: Thomas and the Svartelves
Post by: Mira on January 17, 2026, 12:33:30 PM
The Whamps (specifically, Lara) would pay it.
The White Council would not -- Thomas is a Vamp, it's Vamp-business.
I suspect Eb hates the very idea of Thomas existing, and would just as soon the Svartalven vengeance erased that blot on the McCoy family honor.

Will she? 
Title: Re: Thomas and the Svartelves
Post by: g33k on January 18, 2026, 12:17:01 AM
Will she? 
I'm pretty sure she would... if they'd accept a weregild instead of blood (which I think a very chancy bet).

It's only money, which I think
 (a) the Whamps don't really value that much (it's just a mortal-centric scorekeeping device)
and
 (b) Lara is in control of the decision, and repeatedly goes to great lengths for Thomas
Title: Re: Thomas and the Svartelves
Post by: Mira on January 18, 2026, 02:04:44 PM
Quote
It's only money, which I think
 (a) the Whamps don't really value that much (it's just a mortal-centric scorekeeping device)
and
 (b) Lara is in control of the decision, and repeatedly goes to great lengths for Thomas
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  Money is power, Lara is into power so I am not sure she would take the attitude that it was only money.  I think the only thing that will settle the matter is the finding of Justine, and 1] prove she is pregnant, 2] why whom, 3] reveal the Outsider behind it.  That has to happen first, then I think a weregild can be discussed , not before. 
Title: Re: Thomas and the Svartelves
Post by: Mr. Mouse on January 18, 2026, 07:38:08 PM
Will the discovery that Nemesis was behind the attack on Etri, will that remove the charges and enmity against Thomas?

There's a passage in "Bombshells" that might be key if Thomas becomes seen as merely a hammer.

Code: [Select]
“What about the turtlenecks?” I asked.
“What of them?”
“Will you . . . deal with them?”
Etri just looked at me. “Why would we?”
“They were sort of in on it,” I said.
“They were property,” said the svartalf. “If a man strikes you with a hammer,
it is the man who is punished. There is no reason to destroy the hammer.
We care nothing for them.”
Title: Re: Thomas and the Svartelves
Post by: Mira on January 19, 2026, 01:49:13 PM

  Yes, in a sense Thomas is the hammer, or was the hammer, but not to do damage to the Svartelves, but in an effort to weaken the world for the Outsiders to invade. 
Title: Re: Thomas and the Svartelves
Post by: Bad Alias on January 19, 2026, 04:42:44 PM
The turtlenecks are property under the Accords. Thomas isn't. He also wasn't controlled by another force. He was coerced. Etri may or may not view that as different.

If Etri knows the whole story, he may want to kill Thomas, Justine, and the child as deterrence.
Title: Re: Thomas and the Svartelves
Post by: Mira on January 20, 2026, 12:48:04 PM
The turtlenecks are property under the Accords. Thomas isn't. He also wasn't controlled by another force. He was coerced. Etri may or may not view that as different.

If Etri knows the whole story, he may want to kill Thomas, Justine, and the child as deterrence.

Controlled or coerced?   Was Thomas physically forced?  You can argue that he wasn't, but when he was told that his wife and unborn child would be murdered if he didn't?  I'd say it's a distinction without a difference.
Title: Re: Thomas and the Svartelves
Post by: Bad Alias on January 22, 2026, 11:20:36 PM
Controlled or coerced?   Was Thomas physically forced?  You can argue that he wasn't, but when he was told that his wife and unborn child would be murdered if he didn't?  I'd say it's a distinction without a difference.

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Title: Re: Thomas and the Svartelves
Post by: Mira on January 23, 2026, 03:34:48 PM
(click to show/hide)



 I don't think so because

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Title: Re: Thomas and the Svartelves
Post by: Bad Alias on January 23, 2026, 05:35:22 PM
I agree that Etri took the coercion into consideration and showed as much mercy as he could.

If Thomas had been sick puppeted, I don't think Etri would have demanded any punishment of Thomas.

 
Quote
“There is a spirit I will not name,” I said. “A being that works toward chaos and conflict. One who can possess almost anyone and cause them to act against their will.” “No,” Etri said calmly. “I know the being of which you speak. Our security measures would have detected any such invasive spirit the moment it crossed our threshold—even that one. You cannot excuse his actions thus.
Emphasis added.
This implies that if Thomas was controlled, not merely coerced, his actions would have been excused.
Title: Re: Thomas and the Svartelves
Post by: Mira on January 23, 2026, 07:45:03 PM
Quote
“There is a spirit I will not name,” I said. “A being that works toward chaos and conflict. One who can possess almost anyone and cause them to act against their will.” “No,” Etri said calmly. “I know the being of which you speak. Our security measures would have detected any such invasive spirit the moment it crossed our threshold—even that one. You cannot excuse his actions thus.”
Emphasis added.
This implies that if Thomas was controlled, not merely coerced, his actions would have been excused.
Report

Thomas wasn't possessed, that's what Etri was saying, so Thomas has to take some responsibility and be held as responsible.  It's a fine line really, Thomas wasn't a sock puppet, yet he was being blackmailed in the worst possible way.  He did have a choice, but one with a bad outcome no matter which one he chose.
Title: Re: Thomas and the Svartelves
Post by: Bad Alias on January 23, 2026, 08:22:36 PM
Quote
Etri took a slow drink of his ale, studying me. “In that event,” he said, “then the onus of my wrath belongs to a different being.” “And Thomas would be free of reprisal?” “No,” Etri said with slow, granite intonation. “Though he may have been compelled, that does not change the consequence of his actions. Nor will I permit my nation to be seen as weak.” He turned one hand palm up. “However. There might be more latitude as to the nature of the reprisal.”

Here is where Etri is saying coercion results in mitigation. The "You cannot excuse his actions thus” quote implies that control would result in no personal responsibility for Thomas. This I think Etri distinguishes between control and coercion.
Title: Re: Thomas and the Svartelves
Post by: Mira on January 23, 2026, 11:20:59 PM
Quote
Here is where Etri is saying coercion results in mitigation. The "You cannot excuse his actions thus” quote implies that control would result in no personal responsibility for Thomas. This I think Etri distinguishes between control and coercion.
Report

Possibly, but I also think there is a bit of politics involved as well.  It's like even though Harry was able to prove Morgan was innocent, it didn't matter because of appearances Morgan had to be sacrificed.  I don't think Etri could explain it in such a way that it would satisfy his people, and this was the best he could come up with.  I think what Etri is saying is, yes, you can explain
Thomas' actions thus, even excuse them, but the scales have to be balanced to satisfy my people.  So Thomas is allowed to live, but not without pain, because he took an innocent life, so they took his son.. A life for a life, without death.