ParanetOnline
The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: RobReece on July 21, 2025, 01:48:37 PM
-
I recently signed up for the News Letter that was offered on Jim's website, one of the emails I received contained a reading list of all the books and stories in the Dresdenverse, including the graphic novels, novellas and microfictions... I thought I was familiar with all of it and read it all except the graphic novels. But what surprised me is that it lists two novellas, The Law and one called "Out Law" that occurs after Twelve Months.
Just wanted to see if anyone had any additional information on this novella?
-
I found "The Law," which I have, it came out a while ago and discussed here. However I couldn't find anything for "Out Law" by Jim Butcher.. I wonder if it was simply an error?
-
If the list says "Out Law" occurs after Twelve Months then I suppose it's something Jim is writing now, or proposing to write soon and it will be released next year.
-
The Law occurred after Battle Ground so perhaps it makes sense the next Dresden Files novella to take place after Twelve Months. From the title, my guess is Out Law will have something to do with the consequences of Harry being kicked out of the White Council. Though without reading Twelve Months or hearing Jim drop some clues, there is no way to be certain.
I see that Jim will be making an appearance at Dragon Con Labor Day weekend, maybe he will give the novella a mention, even though most attendees will want to hear something about Twelve Months.
In any case, great catch RobReece in getting that information and posting it here.
-
The Law occurred after Battle Ground so perhaps it makes sense the next Dresden Files novella to take place after Twelve Months. From the title, my guess is Out Law will have something to do with the consequences of Harry being kicked out of the White Council. Though without reading Twelve Months or hearing Jim drop some clues, there is no way to be certain.
I see that Jim will be making an appearance at Dragon Con Labor Day weekend, maybe he will give the novella a mention, even though most attendees will want to hear something about Twelve Months.
In any case, great catch RobReece in getting that information and posting it here.
I was thinking along the same lines, since Harry is now an outlaw .. However when I couldn't find anything on it I thought possible error... It could be though that while planned, i.e. title, since nothing has been started yet and Twelve Months is still months away the only place it is mentioned at all is on Jim's website.
-
These were my thoughts as well, just wanted to see if anyone else had more information.
Thanks everybody.
-
It's worth noting that Jim has new short fiction coming out via Kickstarter short story collection. It wouldn't floor to me to discover he sets a short story immediately after a major DF book similar to the Murphy short story after Changes or the Christmas Eve story. Maybe he does something from Lara's or Maggie's perspective after Twelve Months. Maybe it's from Butters' perspective as he gets a third girlfriend, lol. Either way, this is now a strong possibility.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/unbroken/unbroken-new-tales-by-masters-of-fantasy
-
This is just pure speculation. It is not based on anything in the novels or other Dresden Files shorter fiction. Having a short story or novella that takes place after Twelve Months could allow Jim to do something Jim claims he hasn't done in a Dresden Files novel, create a cliff hanger that leads directly into the next novel Mirror Mirror.
I'm thinking of the late 80's, early 90's TV show Quantum Leap, in which each episode would end with the main character finishing whatever mission he was on and then leaping into someone else's life and body, often in the middle of a dangerous situation. Dr. Sam Becket would always respond to these surprises by saying "Oh Boy" with varying levels of surprise and stress in his voice.
The next story or novella may be titled Out Law. It seems a reasonable possibility that a story with this title could involve the White Council. The last time Harry spoke to anyone in the Council it was Carlos Ramirez, who appeared to blame Harry for the deaths of Wardens Wild Bill, Yoshimo and the disappearance of Warden Chandler. With those facts in mind, I could see Harry being reminded of this, along with whatever else he might be accused of in the story itself, though eventually managing to exonerate himself. The Quantum Leap twist would be Harry being summoned into an incredibly dangerous situation where someone; more likely a bunch of someone's, are trying to kill him, but Warden Chandler is also there and the only person who can save Harry. Que Harry saying "Oh Boy."
OK, maybe Jim isn't a Quantum Leap fan, but I could still envision Out Law being used as a setup to the beginning of Mirror Mirror. With luck, by the time Out Law is released Jim will have finished be close to finishing the next Cinder Spires novel and be ready to start on Mirror Mirror. You may have noticed Jim hasn't done many personal appearances this year. Other than Dragon Con in Atlanta during the upcoming Labor Day weekend, I don't believe he has done a major convention this year. I know he cancelled an appearance this April in Chicago. With luck, maybe that means Jim is making great progress with that third Cinder Spires book. I know I'm looking forward to that novel because I very much enjoyed the second one, but also because the sooner Jim finishes it, the sooner he can start on Mirror Mirror.
-
My thought was that TM would culminate with the wedding between Harry and Laura, but immediately prior to that, Harry gets switched with mirror Harry, so mirror Harry ends up married and not ours.
Book ends with that cliffhanger...
-
This is just pure speculation. It is not based on anything in the novels or other Dresden Files shorter fiction. Having a short story or novella that takes place after Twelve Months could allow Jim to do something Jim claims he hasn't done in a Dresden Files novel, create a cliff hanger that leads directly into the next novel Mirror Mirror ...
I think Jim is pretty firmly set against putting plot-critical elements into the shorts.
He wants the novels to stand on their own.
-
My thought was that TM would culminate with the wedding between Harry and Laura, but immediately prior to that, Harry gets switched with mirror Harry, so mirror Harry ends up married and not ours.
Book ends with that cliffhanger...
I don't know if we're going to have a full-on ST:TOS-Mirror,Mirror repeat, with Mirror!Harry coming to bide in Dresdenverse!Prime, while Harry!Prime goes to Mirror!Dresdenverse...
I was kinda-sorta thinking that Mirror!Harry was gonna summon Harry!Prime, and they'd both be in the Mirrorverse together for a while, with no Harry at all in Dresdenverse!Prime. The thing is, if Mirror!Harry tries to sub-in for Harry!Prime, Mab will be able to tell more-or-less instantly: the man standing at the altar is not her Winter Knight.
Hence, "mysteriously-vanished Harry."
This would make for the most-awkward of return situations for Harry!Prime, when he gets back home: he will have jilted Lara at the altar, and disobeyed the Winter Queen... both in a very-public manner... I don't think a box of chocolates and a bouquet of flowers will make an adequate apology.
-
Well, not to be the skunk at the garden party... ::) But since this has been the most anticipated book of the series so far, I mean we've been speculating for years! It could turn out to be the most disappointing.... :-\ I don't envy Jim the pressure he must feel when he sits down to write this book!
-
I don't know if we're going to have a full-on ST:TOS-Mirror,Mirror repeat, with Mirror!Harry coming to bide in Dresdenverse!Prime, while Harry!Prime goes to Mirror!Dresdenverse...
IIRC, at a signing or interview, years ago, that episode of Star Trek was the inspiration for MM, to the point (now I'm trying to remember what I'd heard...) that either he might have mirror Harry with a goatee like Kirk did or he might have him actually wear a hat instead...
That's why I think it will be a switch, ending the book with a switch back to the proper time stream. Then a good part of the next book could be Harry still dealing with all the stuff that mirror Harry messed up here. Since we wouldn't see what was happening here as we only get our Harry's perspective.
At least those are my theories...
-
IIRC, at a signing or interview, years ago, that episode of Star Trek was the inspiration for MM, to the point (now I'm trying to remember what I'd heard...) that either he might have mirror Harry with a goatee like Kirk did or he might have him actually wear a hat instead...
That's why I think it will be a switch, ending the book with a switch back to the proper time stream. Then a good part of the next book could be Harry still dealing with all the stuff that mirror Harry messed up here. Since we wouldn't see what was happening here as we only get our Harry's perspective.
At least those are my theories...
I confess that a full-on switcheroo makes some sense, given the degree to which Jim seems to be citint the ST:TOS episode (and you're right: Jim has said that goatee's & eye-patches (and Harry in a Hat!) will be included!). FWIW, it was _Spock_ in the goatee, tho; not Kirk. But I think id-Harry in the dreams wears a goatee, so I suspect Mirror!Harry (who'll be "cooler" looking, and more id-driven than Harry!Prime) will also wear a goatee... more than a little foreshadowing, I think, and maybe some clues for how Harry!Prime can handle Mirror!Harry.
But equally-much to the ST episode, I'm expecting to see echoes of the old Jimmy Stewart pic, It's a Wonderful Life: Harry will get to see how very much he was a force for good in his home 'verse, how a darker Harry makes for a darker 'verse.
-
I confess that a full-on switcheroo makes some sense, given the degree to which Jim seems to be citint the ST:TOS episode (and you're right: Jim has said that goatee's & eye-patches (and Harry in a Hat!) will be included!). FWIW, it was _Spock_ in the goatee, tho; not Kirk. But I think id-Harry in the dreams wears a goatee, so I suspect Mirror!Harry (who'll be "cooler" looking, and more id-driven than Harry!Prime) will also wear a goatee... more than a little foreshadowing, I think, and maybe some clues for how Harry!Prime can handle Mirror!Harry.
But equally-much to the ST episode, I'm expecting to see echoes of the old Jimmy Stewart pic, It's a Wonderful Life: Harry will get to see how very much he was a force for good in his home 'verse, how a darker Harry makes for a darker 'verse.
I can see that, we have seen Harry go into severe clinical depression in the past, notably after Grave Peril after Susan was half turned and left him for South America. The events of Summer Knight helped to pull him out of it, but at the beginning of the book he was in pretty bad shape. Yes, in Changes he did arrange his suicide but that was more about outside influences, i.e. Lasciel, which finally pushed Harry over the edge.. This allowed Uriel to intervene as we all remember.
Post Battle Ground, the death of Murphy, being kicked out of the White Council, being rejected by those he thought were friends like Carlos, the condition of Thomas, Justine/baby, all the death in Chicago, forced marriage to Lara, estrangement from Eb, financial struggles, and who knows what could be going on with preteen Maggie; anyway, I can see Harry coming to the conclusion that the world would be better off if he had never been born... Enter the Angel Clarence, or most likely Uriel, who tells him he can arrange that, and does... More lessons for Harry..
I can also see the alternative universe thing ala Star Trek, good Harry verses bad Harry, and as you suggest, Harry having to repair the damage when things go back to "normal."
But you know what? While both ideas might have been cool fifteen or so years ago when we first heard about it.. I am wondering if the time for Mirror Mirror has past? I mean we sort of had a version of it in Ghost Story. While the idea of Harry having to clean up the mess that his evil counterpart made for the next couple of books seems cool, if it doesn't advance the series towards the BAT, what's the point? I am tired of waiting sometimes years for the next book, the book is okay but it really doesn't advance the series all that much.. A few crumbs here, a few crumbs there doesn't cut it!
-
... While the idea of Harry having to clean up the mess that his evil counterpart made for the next couple of books seems cool, if it doesn't advance the series towards the BAT, what's the point? ...
I think we will see some "advance BAT:" Jim has said that -- absent Harry being the Lone Monkeywrench -- the "bad guys" in the Mirrorverse will have advanced their plans quite a bit further than they have in the Prime'verse.
I expect we'll see things like "the White Council has already fallen" (because Harry never took down the Rampires, who had time to gather strength and strike decisively) ... but maybe Harry can learn who the traitor(s) on the council are(were), who is now operating openly as a "Wizard of the Circle?"
I expect we'll see Murphy, but one who never learned to trust Harry (and for good reason), never worked with him as a genuine ally. So her world has been getting darker... and Harry is part of her problem, one of the Bad Guys. She's bitter, and hurting, and has zero trust for Harry Blackstone Copperfield Dresden. And Harry -- still grieving her loss -- has to face angry distrusting embittered Karrin.
Sounds like catnip for Jim!
-
I think we will see some "advance BAT:" Jim has said that -- absent Harry being the Lone Monkeywrench -- the "bad guys" in the Mirrorverse will have advanced their plans quite a bit further than they have in the Prime'verse.
I expect we'll see things like "the White Council has already fallen" (because Harry never took down the Rampires, who had time to gather strength and strike decisively) ... but maybe Harry can learn who the traitor(s) on the council are(were), who is now operating openly as a "Wizard of the Circle?"
I expect we'll see Murphy, but one who never learned to trust Harry (and for good reason), never worked with him as a genuine ally. So her world has been getting darker... and Harry is part of her problem, one of the Bad Guys. She's bitter, and hurting, and has zero trust for Harry Blackstone Copperfield Dresden. And Harry -- still grieving her loss -- has to face angry distrusting embittered Karrin.
Sounds like catnip for Jim!
Maybe, but while interesting, it advances nothing! Or very little, in a lot of ways it rehashes the same story but from a different point of view... Harry calls himself the wizard of Chicago now, he is dealing with a lot there, rather the story was about that, there are so many loose ends that have never been resolved..
-
... Harry calls himself the wizard of Chicago now, he is dealing with a lot there, rather the story was about that ...
That has just happened, at the end of last book! But yes, I think we'll see some of that. I think the upcoming book -- Twelve Months -- will have a lot of "Harry in Chicago" events.
Him and Maggie (and likely City & State wanting to look in (courtesy of someone pulling strings, to entangle Harry & slow him down)).
Harry going on "dates" with Lara, because the Winter Knight is "courting" the White Princess.
Harry interacting with his Bannermen (hundreds of whom survived).
Possibly getting back to "working for a living" -- I haven't seen the WoJ, but several folks report that Jim says Harry is out of diamonds.
Harry interacting with Chicago PD (as the last person to see Karrin Murphy alive; but also as a "person of interest" in several investigations just previous).
Maybe even Harry seeking therapy for PTSD, grief, etc.
(but we were speculating about the book after that (or maybe the next one after that (d'we know for sure if Wrestling comes before or after Goatees&Eyepatches?_ ... whichever, neither of them has even been begun yet!)) We'll see some "Wizard of Chicago" in the just-finished book currently enqueued for release with Penguin/Roc)
-
That has just happened, at the end of last book! But yes, I think we'll see some of that. I think the upcoming book -- Twelve Months -- will have a lot of "Harry in Chicago" events.
It's more than that, it's the next phase of the story.
(but we were speculating about the book after that (or maybe the next one after that (d'we know for sure if Wrestling comes before or after Goatees&Eyepatches?_ ... whichever, neither of them has even been begun yet!)) We'll see some "Wizard of Chicago" in the just-finished book currently enqueued for release with Penguin/Roc)
Honestly, he could do Mirrormirror in an appendex after he finishes the series..
-
I've never heard of the Out Law novella, but I agree that it makes sense to dovetail with Harry's status as an outlaw of the White Council. It could be set after Twelve Months and explore some of the fallout from that. Another idea I had was it being set from the perspective of someone on the White Council like Ramirez tasked with keeping an eye on Harry and seeing how he navigates being an "out law." Carlos could keep coming up against examples of Harry using his power for good which contrasts with what he has been told/believed leading him to possibly change his mind or challenge the White Council on Harry's behalf.
-
Another idea I had was it being set from the perspective of someone on the White Council like Ramirez tasked with keeping an eye on Harry and seeing how he navigates being an "out law." Carlos could keep coming up against examples of Harry using his power for good which contrasts with what he has been told/believed leading him to possibly change his mind or challenge the White Council on Harry's behalf.
Up to now, the only formats Jim has released from others perspectives are short stories and micro fictions. I'm not thinking he'd release a novella from another character's point of view.
-
...
Honestly, he could do Mirrormirror in an appendex after he finishes the series.
Honesty, I'm expecting to see a lot of clues/reveals in Mirror Mirror: as the ripples spread down the timeline from the one Choice, everybody will react differently. Harry will gain otherwise-impossible-to-gain insights, see the covert operators operating differently and be able to draw compare/contrast conclusions.
Obviously, Jim won't be spoiler'ing the entire rest of the series, but the potential to reveal material in legit ways (that would otherwise "need" to be concealed for in-universe reasons) is huge.
-
Honesty, I'm expecting to see a lot of clues/reveals in Mirror Mirror: as the ripples spread down the timeline from the one Choice, everybody will react differently. Harry will gain otherwise-impossible-to-gain insights, see the covert operators operating differently and be able to draw compare/contrast conclusions.
Obviously, Jim won't be spoiler'ing the entire rest of the series, but the potential to reveal material in legit ways (that would otherwise "need" to be concealed for in-universe reasons) is huge.
Or more loose ends that will never get tied..
-
... Just wanted to see if anyone had any additional information on this novella?
New e-mail newsletter.
"Out Law" slated for a 2026 release.
-
Up to now, the only formats Jim has released from others perspectives are short stories and micro fictions. I'm not thinking he'd release a novella from another character's point of view.
Isn't Backup a novella? (It is an honest question, I am not sure of the differences between a short story and a novella).
Personally, I think that if Jim is writing a story called Out law after writing one called The Law there would be something linking them, probably the lawyer. Which does not mean that we won't have the outlaw part of Harry being at odds with the White Council.
-
Isn't Backup a novella? (It is an honest question, I am not sure of the differences between a short story and a novella).
Personally, I think that if Jim is writing a story called Out law after writing one called The Law there would be something linking them, probably the lawyer. Which does not mean that we won't have the outlaw part of Harry being at odds with the White Council.
Good question, I have always thought it was a matter of the length of the story. A novella is longer than your average short story, but not long enough to be considered a novel. The latter might be a distinction without a difference..
-
Good question, I have always thought it was a matter of the length of the story. A novella is longer than your average short story, but not long enough to be considered a novel. The latter might be a distinction without a difference..
I would agree with that description, but as it's pretty vague and open to interpretation, it probably just depends on what the author calls it.
-
Thank you.
-
I would agree with that description, but as it's pretty vague and open to interpretation, it probably just depends on what the author calls it.
Agreed, that's why I said it was a difference without a distinction.
-
Oxford says:
a short novel or long short story.
Wikipedia says:
shorter than most novels, but longer than most novelettes and short stories.
Cambridge says:
longer than a short story but shorter than a regular novel.
dresedenfiles.fandom.com says Backup and The Warrior and Aftermath and Bombshells are all "novelettes," and The Law is a novella.
I'm... not sure I'm helping.
::)
-
What about Websters?
-
What about Websters?
Pretty sure I'm already on the mod's radar as Sufficiently Anal Retentive for this thread plus a few more. But hey, if you wanna join me in Freudland, it's a big tent these days.
-
dresedenfiles.fandom.com says Backup and The Warrior and Aftermath and Bombshells are all "novelettes," and The Law is a novella.
I'm... not sure I'm helping.
::)
You are, because I asked if Backup was not a novella, and, apparently, it is not. It is a novelette. So, we are probably expecting for a story longer than Backup. That is cool.
-
You are, because I asked if Backup was not a novella, and, apparently, it is not. It is a novelette. So, we are probably expecting for a story longer than Backup. That is cool.
??? :-\ :-\ I wonder who decides which is which?
-
??? :-\ :-\ I wonder who decides which is which?
If we're just talking about whether to call it a novella or a novelette,, I'd hope that it's Jim. But my guess is the publisher. If we're talking about the decision to write a short piece vs. a longer one, I might say the same thing, but I don't think Jim went through his publisher for The Law, so Jim?.
-
If we're just talking about whether to call it a novella or a novelette,, I'd hope that it's Jim. But my guess is the publisher. If we're talking about the decision to write a short piece vs. a longer one, I might say the same thing, but I don't think Jim went through his publisher for The Law, so Jim?.
I just Googled it and went to a couple of sites, basically length or number of words are important.
A novelette is longer than a short story but shorter than a novella. The word count is usually between 7,500 words to 17,500 words.
Complexity is important, usually according to the web page I visited a novella is typically from one character's point of view, that fits, one was from the point of view of Thomas, the other was from Murphy's point of view. However in latter years that has changed somewhat as far as number of "main" characters in either, also there are generally no chapters. Apparently chapters are also found only in novels. Anyway that's what I found.
-
Thank you very much, folks. i love this forum.
-
??? :-\ :-\ I wonder who decides which is which?
TBH, I do not believe these terms have universally-agreed-upon delineations.
I'm inclined to feel the OED is likely to be the closest thing we have to "authoritative" definitions, but even there I wouldn't necessarily be 100% confident.
-
TBH, I do not believe these terms have universally-agreed-upon delineations.
I'm inclined to feel the OED is likely to be the closest thing we have to "authoritative" definitions, but even there I wouldn't necessarily be 100% confident.
I imagine there are guidelines, word count does appear to be one of the important ones, then it does get a bit more flexible like point of view, number of main characters that has changed over the years.
-
I imagine there are guidelines ...
I'd ask 2 questions: whose guidelines are these?
And then... who else has some "guidelines" that differ?
To be clear: I do see that information is out there.
But I don't see that any clear consensus definition exists.
Everyones' definition is similar-ish, with varying degrees of "ish"
-
I'd ask 2 questions: whose guidelines are these?
And then... who else has some "guidelines" that differ?
To be clear: I do see that information is out there.
But I don't see that any clear consensus definition exists.
Everyones' definition is similar-ish, with varying degrees of "ish"
There is a website called MWEditing, the author goes extensively into the difference in number of words, point of view, characters for each and also the history of how it got to be what it is today. It isn't a math problem, so yes, there might be some wiggle room between definitions, but there are general rules to go by. This website is pretty comprehensive on the subject.
-
There is a date now: May 12 ,2026
https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/out-law-jim-butcher/1148099903?ean=9798347030026#
In a city that’s just beginning to recover from the devastation caused by the Battle of Chicago, Harry Dresden is finally pulling himself together as well. He’s ensconced in his own personal castle, healing his various wounds, and training an eager new apprentice. The last thing he wants is any trouble. But, as history has consistently—and quite annoyingly—shown, what Harry wants is rarely what Harry gets.
It starts with a visit from Harry’s most powerful frenemy, Gentleman John Marcone, Baron of Chicago. He needs Harry to assist in the redemption of an underling who’s looking to go straight. And since Harry does kinda sorta owe Marcone for saving his life once (stupid honorable debt!), it’s not a request he can refuse. He’ll just wish he had.
Because this little favor is going to drag Harry into a fight he doesn’t want on behalf of a lowlife he doesn’t trust against an enemy more powerful and pestilent than he ever could’ve expected: an insatiable, demonic foe whom Harry himself may have created when he wiped out the vampires of the Red Court so long ago.
Before, all it wanted was blood. Now it wants the entire world ...
So after 12 months or during 12 months.
It has Marcone, and deals with an upto date unknown "demonic foe" Harry might have created by destroying the Rampires.
And the new apprentice is mentioned.
-
wtf? New apprentice? I am worried we are having too many new characters so far in Dresden Files.
It is also weird that which sounds like a very important foe, something that can be related with Harry's nightmares and blackout after the destruction of the rampires, appears in a novella and not in a main book.
-
wtf? New apprentice? I am worried we are having too many new characters so far in Dresden Files.
It is also weird that which sounds like a very important foe, something that can be related with Harry's nightmares and blackout after the destruction of the rampires, appears in a novella and not in a main book.
Totally agree, too many characters, too many loose ends to plotlines! You are so right, something this seemingly significant cannot be resolved in a novella.
-
I think, the apprentice will be somebody we already know. Like Fitz from Ghost Story or Aiden (?)the warlock from Zoo Day.
Edit: it was Austin, wasn't it? The warlock in Zoo Day.
-
I don't remember the name but I remember the character, may be you are right.
-
With Harry not in the white council any more I doubt it's an apprentice like we are thinking. But between the members of the paranet and the regular people who join under his banner during the battle of Chicago I wouldn't be surprised if Harry has a lot of people training with him to various degrees. I feel like this might be a "best man" twisted by fae /winter situation. Probably someone Harry hates. Or it's marcone
-
With Harry not in the white council any more I doubt it's an apprentice like we are thinking. But between the members of the paranet and the regular people who join under his banner during the battle of Chicago I wouldn't be surprised if Harry has a lot of people training with him to various degrees. I feel like this might be a "best man" twisted by fae /winter situation. Probably someone Harry hates. Or it's marcone
I'm pretty sure the "wizard's apprentice" tradition pre-dates the entire White Council.
During 12M -- and this story is set during 12M -- I don't think Harry's going to have time to set up any sort of multi-student training. One apprentice seems like plenty!
Agreed that there is plenty of need for Harry's training, plenty of students who would benefit. One popular theory has the Paranet becoming a less-elitist / more-egalitarian replacement for the White Council (which seems doomed to fall).
Not Marcone, though: he has Thorny to train him, and Namshiel is the Denarian's wizard-nerd, so Marcone doesn't need Harry.
-
Not Marcone, though: he has Thorny to train him, and Namshiel is the Denarian's wizard-nerd, so Marcone doesn't need Harry.
I have a hunch that Marcone will need Harry. I think Marcone will eventually regret his choice.
-
I have a hunch that Marcone will need Harry. I think Marcone will eventually regret his choice.
My guess is that Marcone will have a case that breaks his rules but he cant act openly against the people responsible. So similar to the monster short he hires it out. Only this time harry is the only one available. Harry starts a war with Canada has Marcone feared he would in that story. And Marcone ends up hating harry even more
-
My guess is that Marcone will have a case that breaks his rules but he cant act openly against the people responsible. So similar to the monster short he hires it out. Only this time harry is the only one available. Harry starts a war with Canada has Marcone feared he would in that story. And Marcone ends up hating harry even more
No, I think the whole Denarian thing will end up going against Marcone's grain. Andruiel pulls it off with Nic fairly well, Nic still believes he has an equal partnership with Andruiel. Lasciel tried to convince Harry that that was the kind of partnership he could have with her if he accepted the coin. However thanks to his inadvertent soul gaze early on when we first meet the Denarians he knows that the host is really the slave of the fallen trapped in the coin, or he feared that. Based on that knowledge Harry stanchly refused to accept the coin. I don't think Marcone likes to be or wants to be a servant to Namshell, at the moment he maybe convinced he is in the driver's seat, but I think a day will come when Marcone will realize he isn't in charge of anything,that's the day he will regret his choice.
-
No, I think the whole Denarian thing will end up going against Marcone's grain. Andruiel pulls it off with Nic fairly well, Nic still believes he has an equal partnership with Andruiel. Lasciel tried to convince Harry that that was the kind of partnership he could have with her if he accepted the coin. However thanks to his inadvertent soul gaze early on when we first meet the Denarians he knows that the host is really the slave of the fallen trapped in the coin, or he feared that. Based on that knowledge Harry stanchly refused to accept the coin. I don't think Marcone likes to be or wants to be a servant to Namshell, at the moment he maybe convinced he is in the driver's seat, but I think a day will come when Marcone will realize he isn't in charge of anything,that's the day he will regret his choice.
Regret it, sure.
But I feel the seductiveness of the Fallen would suffer if that regret were sufficient for Marcone to slip the noose and ditch the coin. We already saw Nicky almost redeemed, Harry and Sanya got out... adding a succesful Marcone redemption just feels like it needs way too much buildup. Unlike a Marcone who, like in Battle Ground, works for good despite still being in the clutches of the Fallen.
-
Regret it, sure.
But I feel the seductiveness of the Fallen would suffer if that regret were sufficient for Marcone to slip the noose and ditch the coin. We already saw Nicky almost redeemed, Harry and Sanya got out... adding a succesful Marcone redemption just feels like it needs way too much buildup. Unlike a Marcone who, like in Battle Ground, works for good despite still being in the clutches of the Fallen.
Except for the fact that before Butters got the Sword of Faith, there was a lot of speculation that Marcone would be the next Knight. Now not sure, but I even think someone said that there was a WOJ that Jim had considered making Marcone the next Knight. There is one more Sword out there, the Sword of Love, yes, most think Thomas will get it, but what if it turns out to be Marcone, keeping with Jim's original idea?
-
Except for the fact that before Butters got the Sword of Faith, there was a lot of speculation that Marcone would be the next Knight. Now not sure, but I even think someone said that there was a WOJ that Jim had considered making Marcone the next Knight. There is one more Sword out there, the Sword of Love, yes, most think Thomas will get it, but what if it turns out to be Marcone, keeping with Jim's original idea?
For that to happen, Marcone will have to take Sanya's route and give up his coin. There's already a Jewish Knight and an agnostic Knight, but I don't think Jim would propose for anyone to hold a coin and a sword at the same time, even temporarily.
Could you see Harry as the Triple Knight? Winter, Coin and Sword?
-
For that to happen, Marcone will have to take Sanya's route and give up his coin. There's already a Jewish Knight and an agnostic Knight, but I don't think Jim would propose for anyone to hold a coin and a sword at the same time, even temporarily.
Could you see Harry as the Triple Knight? Winter, Coin and Sword?
The only way for one person to be simultaneously a KotBD & KotC would be for that Denarian to renounce their Fall and to be redeemed. I don't think that's going to happen, AFAIK it's canonically "impossible..." but that's real-world Church canon, and Jim is in charge of what's possible & what happens in the canon of the Dresdenverse.
-
For that to happen, Marcone will have to take Sanya's route and give up his coin. There's already a Jewish Knight and an agnostic Knight, but I don't think Jim would propose for anyone to hold a coin and a sword at the same time, even temporarily.
Why not a former gangster Knight who has learned how to be a wizard? Not impossible, of course Marcone would have to give up his coin, if he got disgusted enough he might. Marcone is a gangster, but he still has a smidge of conscience, he feels guilt for that little girl that got wounded because of him. He also must have some faith deep down, remember he wanted the Shroud in hope that it had the power to cure the girl.
-
Why not a former gangster Knight who has learned how to be a wizard? Not impossible, of course Marcone would have to give up his coin, if he got disgusted enough he might. Marcone is a gangster, but he still has a smidge of conscience, he feels guilt for that little girl that got wounded because of him. He also must have some faith deep down, remember he wanted the Shroud in hope that it had the power to cure the girl.
Gentleman Johnny also very very very much wishes to be his Own Man.
And that is fundamentally impossible for a KotBD hosting one of the Fallen.
But the un-Fallen? They are all about that Mortal Free Will.
If John ever comes to understand that, he'd flip sides in an instant. Of course, it'd take... errr... some "other changes," let's say... for him to become eligible to become a KotC!
-
Gentleman Johnny also very very very much wishes to be his Own Man.
And that is fundamentally impossible for a KotBD hosting one of the Fallen.
Yes, he does like to be his own man and also likes his power and his own little empire. Namshiel will have to manage him so that Marcone believes he is calling the shots. This basically is what Andriel has done with Nic, he buys that it is an equal partnership. Something Harry never bought when Lasciel offered it, but will Marcone see through it?
But the un-Fallen? They are all about that Mortal Free Will.
However the holder of Marcone's coin is one of the Fallen and really doesn't give a damn about his host's free will.
If John ever comes to understand that, he'd flip sides in an instant. Of course, it'd take... errr... some "other changes," let's say... for him to become eligible to become a KotC!
Anything is possible, Sanya was a Communist atheist and ultimately gave up his coin and became a KotC.
-
... Anything is possible, Sanya was a Communist atheist and ultimately gave up his coin and became a KotC.
Erm... apparently, Sanya still is a Communist atheist who's also a KotC.
Though when pressed, he admits he's more agnostic than atheist.
And of course he protests he's a Marxist, not a Communist.
-
Erm... apparently, Sanya still is a Communist atheist who's also a KotC.
Though when pressed, he admits he's more agnostic than atheist.
And of course he protests he's a Marxist, not a Communist.
Or if it walks like a duck..... Or Sanya plays lip service to it for his own reasons, but the Almighty and the angel in charge of his Sword knows what is really in his heart. I suspect the latter..
-
Or if it walks like a duck..... Or Sanya plays lip service to it for his own reasons, but the Almighty and the angel in charge of his Sword knows what is really in his heart. I suspect the latter..
He doesn't have to believe.
He just has to be really, deeply, good... all the way down (and strong enough to bear the burden).
Just like Butters, whose Faith is evidently Jedi not Christian.
-
He doesn't have to believe.
He just has to be really, deeply, good... all the way down (and strong enough to bear the burden).
Just like Butters, whose Faith is evidently Jedi not Christian.
I believe that is what I am saying. However as far as Butters goes, he is Jewish I believe, and his faith in his religion and or heritage could be very strong.
Back to the deep down point about Marcone, there was that little bit that Harry couldn't get to in the soul gaze. There is that little bit that feels guilt and remorse over hurting a child. That little bit says that redemption isn't totally out of the question for Marcone.
-
... Back to the deep down point about Marcone, there was that little bit that Harry couldn't get to in the soul gaze. There is that little bit that feels guilt and remorse over hurting a child. That little bit says that redemption isn't totally out of the question for Marcone.
There's also the scene in the Raith Deeps: Harry asks him to help rescue the innocents, and Marcone responds "who do you think I am?!" Harry replies, "Someone who can help. Maybe the only person who can help. Please, John." And Harry gets through to him.
A redemption-arc for Marcone isn't out of the question.
Picture a scene in the BAT where Marcone is fighting (with Thorny's backing) against Outsiders.
Marcone has his back up hard against the wall, no viable escape (despite having Thorny in his pocket), about to die.
Dresden says to Marcone, "You know John, the deal with the Fallen isn't the only deal on the table..." and he offers Marcone the hilt of Amoracchius.
-
Dresden says to Marcone, "You know John, the deal with the Fallen isn't the only deal on the table..." and he offers Marcone the hilt of Amoracchius.
That would be so cool.
-
I agree
-
Yes, he does like to be his own man and also likes his power and his own little empire. Namshiel will have to manage him so that Marcone believes he is calling the shots. This basically is what Andriel has done with Nic, he buys that it is an equal partnership. Something Harry never bought when Lasciel offered it, but will Marcone see through it?
Namshiel's character and motivation is an area I'm actually quite curious about. What we saw of him in SmF as one of the Fallen who dominates the host and was pretty firmly in Tessa's camp seems contradictory to later WoJ that he's basically the magic nerd and a bit of a loner from the other Fallen who mostly just wants to refine his experiments. The latter sounds like he would have been a pretty good fit for Harry, if Nic had had his coin available instead of Lasciel's.
Then again, he also got pretty badly burned by Tessa and Rosanna - they betrayed him and left him to be un-hosted. I think they were hoping he'd stay coin-bound as long as possible in the assumption he was nem-fected, as cover for one or both of them being the actual 'Judas' as Nic put it.
Is he long-gaming a plan to dominate Marcone, or has he made a strategic choice that his bridges are well and truly burned with the other 29, and an actual alliance with Marcone is in his interest?
-
... What we saw of him in SmF as one of the Fallen who dominates the host and was pretty firmly in Tessa's camp seems contradictory to later WoJ that he's basically the magic nerd and a bit of a loner from the other Fallen who mostly just wants to refine his experiments ...
I think sometimes the Fallen end up with a largely-useless host, from their own POV. I suppose that might be just a mistake/mis-estimation on their part, or ignorance (being essentially blind and deaf in their coins, possibly unable to discern the qualities of their potential host).
These hosts can't help the Fallen in any way, advance their agenda, etc; instead they can only drag them down.
When we first met Thorny, he may have been burdened with such a host, and gone "fuck it, just gonna need to meatpuppet this one." Thorny may simply have found a more-apt partnership with Marcone.
Similarly, I suspect that alliances amongst the Fallen are kind of fluid and context-dependent; Thorny (I suspect) wasn't "firmly" in Tessa's camp, he was there as a matter of convenience or opportunity, maybe for a specific project with a shared agenda, etc. He may even have been a spy in Tessa's camp, passing info to another of the Fallen.
-
Yes. I imagine the relationship Fallen-host is more complex than what we first imagined. I wonder if Marcone took some safe measures. Perhaps he found how to make a special, safer deal, or something. Marcone is a real impressive person and he has a lot of recourses, so he could have found things your average host could never know.
-
Yes. I imagine the relationship Fallen-host is more complex than what we first imagined. I wonder if Marcone took some safe measures. Perhaps he found how to make a special, safer deal, or something. Marcone is a real impressive person and he has a lot of recourses, so he could have found things your average host could never know.
I think Namshiel is going to find himself having similar problems to the ones that Lasciel had with Harry. The reasons might be slightly different, but the outcomes could very well be the same. Because of that first soul gaze, Harry was immediately put on his guard after he realized what was in his head. Harry prides himself on his will, and it is very strong whether it is because he is star born or not who knows? Because of his will Harry was able to use Lasciel and remain himself, though it was a close thing. It wasn't to Murphy confronted him as to how he seemed to be changing that Harry realized it as well, after that Lasciel got nowhere. Point of fact, Harry turned the tables and the Shadow became Lash. In Marcone's case, he took up the coin I imagine for power. Ever since Harry blew the door off his bar I think Marcone has lusted to have the power of a wizard. Marcone wants more than that though, he remains a mob boss, he wants to call the shots. I think we saw some of that in Battle Ground, saving Harry was more a Marcone call and not a Namshiel call. Also if Marcone ultimately rejects the coin, will his wizard skills remain?
-
I suspect without the coin Marcone would have less raw power, but he would be a wizard still, because he would have learnt how to do magic. He would be one of those wizards with much more finesse than raw power.
BUT, I actually don't think we would see Marcone rejecting the coin. I would guess JB is planning to have coin-host Marcone as a key player in the BAT. Just my bet, at least.
-
Regarding Marcone without Namshiel----I think he wouldn't really have any power. Previously, he hadn't shown any predisposition to having any magical capability, but rather, surrounded himself with those with knowledge and power--specifically Gard. If anything, I think he's probably like Butters in that he has a capacity to put things together with guidance from Namshiel in the same way Butters does with Bob. He's a vanilla mortal with the power he's acquired as a powerful human (mob boss and more) that recognized he needed to power up to hold his position as one who signed on as a Baron on the Accords---possibly as a reaction to Harry's ever-increasing power--knowing that one day, Dresden would be coming for him. This doesn't preclude the possibility that he'll eventually learn enough or put enough goodies together to be a passable sorcerer, but on his own, never a WC level capital W Wizard. I think as a plot device, it keeps things interesting for Dresden because Marcone figures into the BAT or something. He's kinda like Batman--Ultimately a badass, but still human. (Extra super scary with Namshiel.)
Anyway--Just my 2 cents.
Cheers and Best!
B
-
Regarding Marcone without Namshiel----I think he wouldn't really have any power. Previously, he hadn't shown any predisposition to having any magical capability, but rather, surrounded himself with those with knowledge and power--specifically Gard. If anything, I think he's probably like Butters in that he has a capacity to put things together with guidance from Namshiel in the same way Butters does with Bob. He's a vanilla mortal with the power he's acquired as a powerful human (mob boss and more) that recognized he needed to power up to hold his position as one who signed on as a Baron on the Accords---possibly as a reaction to Harry's ever-increasing power--knowing that one day, Dresden would be coming for him. This doesn't preclude the possibility that he'll eventually learn enough or put enough goodies together to be a passable sorcerer, but on his own, never a WC level capital W Wizard. I think as a plot device, it keeps things interesting for Dresden because Marcone figures into the BAT or something. He's kinda like Batman--Ultimately a badass, but still human. (Extra super scary with Namshiel.)
Anyway--Just my 2 cents.
Cheers and Best!
B
I totally agree, those are my thoughts as well. In that light if Marcone does decide to give up the coin, it will be a huge sacrifice for him. Given that, it could lead to him becomming a Knight, but that all remains to be seen.
-
I totally agree, those are my thoughts as well. In that light if Marcone does decide to give up the coin, it will be a huge sacrifice for him. Given that, it could lead to him becomming a Knight, but that all remains to be seen.
I agree with Nammy Marcone is at best extremely low level talent. But Jim has said that power increases with age. I think snake boy was a small power but thanks to the fallen and long live after centuries when he lost the coin he could still do some magic
-
I agree with Nammy Marcone is at best extremely low level talent. But Jim has said that power increases with age. I think snake boy was a small power but thanks to the fallen and long live after centuries when he lost the coin he could still do some magic
But doing some magic isn't exactly like being a wizard or sorcerer, the demotion would be very noticable. ::)