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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: KurtinStGeorge on May 21, 2025, 09:15:28 AM
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A couple of years ago I was going to start a thread about the times Harry has thought about something and then had another character repeat the same or very similar phrase back to him. I found a Word doc I wrote on the subject, but I don't remember if I ever actually posted it.
I can think of three distinct times this has happened but perhaps there have been others that I missed. In Cold Days Harry has this random thought that two plus two can't equal five; except under near impossible or irrational conditions, then near the end of the novel, just when Maeve thinks she has won and starts to aim her gun at Harry she says, "Two plus two is five."
In Dead Beat Harry says to himself, "You don't get to be the Merlin of the White Council by collecting bottle caps" only to have Carlos Ramirez say the exact same phrase back to him a few paragraphs later.
In Death Masks, Harry talks about the difference between "fun time handcuffs" and real handcuffs when he first meets Anna Valmont, only to have Molly Carpenter mention "fun time" handcuffs in another chapter.
I have never been able to come up with a reasonable explanation for these coincidences, until now. What if part of Harry's starborn powers go beyond having influence over Outsiders. What if Harry can mentally influence his fellow mortals? Not in the way Molly can read and control people's minds. It would be a very subtle talent and probably not one that would have a recognizable magical signature. If this is the case, during those rare occasions when Harry has manifested this talent, he's done so without realizing it.
If Harry did become aware that he has this ability; well, I'm pretty sure the White Council wouldn't like it. Even if Harry simply used it to send an important message in a covert manner, most Council members would probably be suspicious of Harry's motives. This might explain or at least partially explain why Senior Council members are reluctant to tell Harry what it means to be Starborn.
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That is an intriguing possibility, here is another aspect of what you are suggesting, it isn't just his friends that are repeating this back but his foes as well. So what if it isn't an ability that Harry has as a star born, but that he is being watched? By who, whom, what or how, we have no clue as yet.. Who or what has the ability to follow Harry close enough undetected to be able to report back to his friends and foes what Harry is saying? Since free will is a huge theme of the series, my vote goes to both Heaven and Hell, both have a huge interest in the final BAT.
Or the simplest explanation? It's simply an author's ploy to make for more drama, as in a critical moment Maeve repeating back to Harry about things not adding up and they didn't. Yeah, I know, cheap shot.. ::)
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I've been thinking about this a lot and this makes a lot of sense that this would happen sometimes. Any being sensitive to thoughts may accidentally or purposedly repeat phrases like this as a way to be persuasive. Molly is a very sensitive person so it makes sense that she would be able to do it. While I suppose we could make the same argument about Maeve and Ramirez because they're magic users, I think there's another intriguing possibility: Carlos and Maeve were both infected by Nemesis and did it on accident.
Maeve being Nemfected a strong possibility given that she almost blew up Demonreach and that was the explicit goal of Nemesis in Battle Ground. She was also the very first target of the Starborn Winter Knight.
I think that there's a decent argument for Carlos too. First, we know that Justine was Nemfected and had to be infected by someone. Carlos had a few minutes next to her in White Night while Harry was listening to the WCV debate the merits of the crusade against low talent wizards. This was also around when Justine became close to Lara. Second, we know that Carlos was nearby a Cthulhu cult in Cold Case. He says that he got a report from Elaine to check it out but that's an easy cover story to make up. Third, we know that at least one shadowy organization tasked an attractive, respected, and talented White Council Warden to become close to Dresden in order to keep an eye on him. Would it be strange for another party to do something similar? Fourth, isn't it weird that several experienced Wardens fought Black Court Vampires in Battle Ground and only Harry and Carlos survived? Fifth, isn't it odd that several of the stories he prominently features include Outsiders? War Cry, White Night, Proven Guilty, Cold Case, and Battle Ground/Peace Talks all have Carlos and all have Outsiders. The only one with a lot of Carlos but no obvious Outsider influence is Dead Beat. That one is centered on a conflict with Kemmler's disciples but would it shock you to discover Kemmler made a deal with Outsiders? Maybe one Kemmler's disciples was Nemfected and that's how Carlos got Nemfected. Sixth, he's repeatedly mentioned as the youngest to every reach Warden Commander. It wouldn't be surprising if the Outsider gave him help to accomplish it.
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I am almost sure that there was other similar moment with Marcone, that could be atributed to "great minds..." but also to magic if Marcone had the coin. I would need to reread the series, what I really have no time to do.
My fragile memory aside, I agree with KurtinStGeorge. And it also made me think, what if one of the reasons everyone is so reluctant about telling Harry what it means to be a starborn is that being aware of that could change the powers themselves? Like when a watcher changes the result of an experiment just because it watches. The other option, of course, it is that knowing how powerful one can be could be very tempting. Almost like a coin. And we know that Harry could resist that allure.
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The "Bottle caps" remark in particular is one I'm pretty sure I've seen a bunch.
If anyone has the whole text of the DF series in searchable document form, I'd be interested to see how many times that occurs, and who says it
I have an alternative theory to suggest: what if it's early-stage foretelling? A turn of phrase that Harry subconsciously foresees being spoken, and "sticks in his mind" before it even happens...
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Also, I wonder if it cold be tied to Harry's habit of naming things and people. Just look at Toot and how he's grown as Harry has given him more responsibility along with the different titles. Word-O-Mancy?
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Ebrien, I’ve thought for some time that Harry’s naming characters has some importance to the story. Remember when Harry dropped “El” from Mr Sunshine’s name or when he shortened the Earlking’s name to Earl? Those characters were quick to react and did not think the matter inconsequential. Giving Toot and Demonreach names has had significant consequences. I suspect Harry’s naming these characters gives him some ability to define their natures.
Having said that, returning to the thread topic, I prefer g33k’s concept that Harry is prescient to the idea that he is broadcasting his thoughts. Broadcasting his thoughts, even if restricted to certain “sensitive” individuals, could be a distinct weakness for Harry. And outside the phrase repetition, there is no evidence I can recall of Harry’s enemies knowing what he is thinking. For example, none of Harry’s companions in Skin Game seemed to be aware of his arrangement with Goodman Grey.
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Having said that, returning to the thread topic, I prefer g33k’s concept that Harry is prescient to the idea that he is broadcasting his thoughts. Broadcasting his thoughts, even if restricted to certain “sensitive” individuals, could be a distinct weakness for Harry. And outside the phrase repetition, there is no evidence I can recall of Harry’s enemies knowing what he is thinking. For example, none of Harry’s companions in Skin Game seemed to be aware of his arrangement with Goodman Grey.
They didn't know about the arrangement with Goodman Grey because they were made at Mac's Bar with special security blockers put on by Mab.
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We know that wizards develop some level of Sight as described as Luccio in Small Favor. Wizards develop some level of precognizance as they mature. Harry recognized his with the familiarity with the island. What if it has been stirring before that and part of it is awareness of phrases that will be said in the near future.
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As much as it disagrees with my own hypothesis, Harry developing future sight would explain several of these. Molly's description of "fun time handcuffs" feels the most like a possible coincidence. The other two are possible cases of Harry's future sight especially Cold Days. That one includes several cases of timey wimey shenanigans so Harry having minor examples of future would make sense. Plus, Harry's first example of future sight involved the island so it seems likely that he would have minor examples involving it.
However, I still prefer my theory (all credit to OP) because Jim dropping hints about Nemesis's telepathy just feels so cool to me.
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As much as it disagrees with my own hypothesis, Harry developing future sight would explain several of these. Molly's description of "fun time handcuffs" feels the most like a possible coincidence. The other two are possible cases of Harry's future sight especially Cold Days. That one includes several cases of timey wimey shenanigans so Harry having minor examples of future would make sense. Plus, Harry's first example of future sight involved the island so it seems likely that he would have minor examples involving it.
However, I still prefer my theory (all credit to OP) because Jim dropping hints about Nemesis's telepathy just feels so cool to me.
A small bounce off of what you said. Another possibility is some resonance with Harry's time travel. We know in a future book that he will be revisiting prior events. Maybe his presence in the past with his future knowledge combines with something like his Sight to allow him to pick those phrases up in the past from his future self's presence.
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Or Harry's foes are reading his mind and mocking him by repeating back to him what he said. Remember defense against that isn't the best for members of the White Council, as Harry found out against Corpsetaker. After he and Molly practiced secretly their defenses got a bit better and you may see less of Harry's words being repeated back to him. The part about the time travel bit that doesn't quite fit is Harry is usually saying those alone.. Also they just might be common sayings for that group of people... As in when Harry said about getting to be the Merlin by collecting bottle caps sounds like it might be a pretty common saying among the younger wizards especially. "Fun time in handcuffs," could also be another be it sick common saying.
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I agree with the fact that it could be just coincidences (common sayings among some people) but not about the option of mocking enemies. It would be too much of a risk to do that, as Harry could notice.
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... First, we know that Justine was Nemfected and had to be infected by someone ...
Actually, we don't know Justine "had to be infected by someone." We have no viable nor exhaustive list of Nemvectors; person-to-person spread may not even be one of them! IIRC, we don't know of any person-to-person transfers. Lea got Nemfected by Morgana's Athame (not by a "person" but by a "cursed item"), and I think that's the only Nemfection whose provenance we know precisely (tho there's plenty of WAGs about others).
... Maeve being Nemfected a strong possibility given that she almost blew up Demonreach and that was the explicit goal of Nemesis in Battle Ground. She was also the very first target of the Starborn Winter Knight.
No, we 100% know for sure that Maeve was Nemfected; that's why Mab ordered her killed. We know it came from Lea, though not precisely how.
Maeve wanted to beat Mab, to outmaneuver her and take away what she valued. Nemesis gave Maeve some degree of free will, and choice; much more than other Fae. Unlike all the others, Maeve could lie (not just mislead & misdirect and slice the truth so fine it was almost invisible, but blatantly and knowingly speak an un-truth); Maeve's dying words were, "two plus two is five" (which, when you think about it, is really rather pathetic: a trivial little nothingburger lie, petty braggadocio... but also 100% proof that she had Something Big enabling her to violate one of the fundamentals of Faerie).
Lea "spread it to Maeve" (Mab's own words) somehow... but Lea still had the Athame, so could easily have been the proximate source of Maeve's Nemfection, as well as Lea's!
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How did Aurora get Nemfected? We have WAGs, but canon is unclear on anything beyond that it happened.
How did Cat Sith get Nemfected? He was "taken" somehow (and just how TF do you "take" a critter like Cat Sith, who's competent & stealthy enough to remove elite sidhe warriors without neighboring elite sidhe warriors even noticing??!?), but we don't know the details of actually passing Nemesis to him.
etc.
Looping back to Justine, however...
My best bet is that her Nemfection happened somewhere in the White Court. There is a LOT of Outsider influence / presence amongst the Whampires, and I'm betting it was "someone... or something" who Nemfected her there, with my first guess being something in the private "Starborn/Outsider Apocalypse" collection of Raith Père, after she began acting as Lara's personal assistant. (On a slight tangent: I further WAG that the substantive Outsider problems amongst the Whamps is Mab's "main" motivation in contracting a marriage between her Starborn-Wizard Winterknight, and White Princess Lara).
I don't discount @Mira's theory, though, that Justine was a deep plant: Nemfected before we first met her, worming her way into Thomas' affections, in order to get to Harry. This is my own 2nd-favorite theory.
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Actually, we don't know Justine "had to be infected by someone." We have no viable nor exhaustive list of Nemvectors; person-to-person spread may not even be one of them! IIRC, we don't know of any person-to-person transfers. Lea got Nemfected by Morgana's Athame (not by a "person" but by a "cursed item"), and I think that's the only Nemfection whose provenance we know precisely (tho there's plenty of WAGs about others).
No, we 100% know for sure that Maeve was Nemfected; that's why Mab ordered her killed. We know it came from Lea, though not precisely how.
We know that infection is not simple. Otherwise, why did the White Court vector (whatever it was) not go after Lara? They got to Justine and theoretically should have been a step closer to getting Lara. As far as we know, Lara is free from infection. It is not as simple as person to person because then Justine should have been able to infect Lara while serving as her personal assistant. I assume that at some point we will learn the whole story. My guess is that Harry/Lara will capture Justine and in the process of trying to cure her interrogate her to learn more and fill in some of the gaps in their knowledge.
My best bet is that her Nemfection happened somewhere in the White Court. There is a LOT of Outsider influence / presence amongst the Whampires, and I'm betting it was "someone... or something" who Nemfected her there, with my first guess being something in the private "Starborn/Outsider Apocalypse" collection of Raith Père, after she began acting as Lara's personal assistant. (On a slight tangent: I further WAG that the substantive Outsider problems amongst the Whamps is Mab's "main" motivation in contracting a marriage between her Starborn-Wizard Winterknight, and White Princess Lara).
I don't discount @Mira's theory, though, that Justine was a deep plant: Nemfected before we first met her, worming her way into Thomas' affections, in order to get to Harry. This is my own 2nd-favorite theory.
We know the infection happened about the time that Justine started working for Lara. Therefore, sometime after Blood Rites. We know from the Marcone story that Justine was sent as Mab's envoy to other accorded nations. She could have been infected on one of these trips away from the White Court or, as suggested, by Nemesis influence in the White Court seeking a closer connection to the queen.
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We know the infection happened about the time that Justine started working for Lara. Therefore, sometime after Blood Rites. We know from the Marcone story that Justine was sent as Mab's envoy to other accorded nations. She could have been infected on one of these trips away from the White Court or, as suggested, by Nemesis influence in the White Court seeking a closer connection to the queen.
Do we? The assumption is that Thomas stopped short of killing Justine when he fed upon her to save his life in Blood Rites because of his true love... There is a couple of things wrong with that, the first being "true love." Did it become that after Thomas nearly killed her? Or did he stop because he truly loved her? Either way, how come neither suffered from third degree burns or any burns at all? Justine just ended up with white hair.. The other is Thomas was under the impression that he had indeed killed Justine.. Only later if I remember correctly did he find out that he hadn't.. So if Thomas stopped feeding to save Justine at the risk of his own, it wasn't a decision he was aware of.. So he involuntarily stopped feeding while he was out of it because he loved her? Wow, Justine survives, she becomes Lara's secretary, deeply embedded in White Court affairs and much closer to the star born Harry Dresden because of Thomas.. Just a wee bit pat, don't you think?
As for Lara not being infected, who knows? I mean until the victim of the infection starts to act totally out of character, there are no real symptoms.. Lea went along for a while undetected until she actually told Mab herself. Mab didn't realize that Maeve was infected until it was too late to save her.. Nobody realized that Aurora was infected until she started a war with Winter.. Harry had no clue that Cat Sith was infected until he started acting crazy, and none at all that Justine was until it almost ended in disaster.. So is Lara infected, I doubt it, but at the same time it is hard to tell whether she is or not..
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We know that infection is not simple. Otherwise, why did the White Court vector (whatever it was) not go after Lara? They got to Justine and theoretically should have been a step closer to getting Lara. As far as we know, Lara is free from infection. It is not as simple as person to person because then Justine should have been able to infect Lara while serving as her personal assistant. I assume that at some point we will learn the whole story. My guess is that Harry/Lara will capture Justine and in the process of trying to cure her interrogate her to learn more and fill in some of the gaps in their knowledge.
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I'll suggest that Nemesis hasn't taken Lara because it doesn't want Lara.
It wants Justine.
It wants the lover of the Starborn's brother -- Harry is (was) protective of Justine. He saw her as fragile, helpless, and vitally-important to his only blood-relative. That made Harry ripe for manipulation by Justine.
But Lara? Please. An apex-predator, direct threat/foe to Dresden, known manipulator. Harry is maximally on-guard. Lara has almost no value in this context.
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We know the infection happened about the time that Justine started working for Lara. Therefore, sometime after Blood Rites...
No: we only have the word of Nemesis that that's when it happened!
And... um... Nemesis probably isn't the most reliable informant; just sayin'
... We know from the Marcone story that Justine was sent as Mab's envoy to other accorded nations...
I think you mean Lara's envoy! But yeah, about that: Justine's revelation as Nemfected actually resolved an issue that had been nagging at me from that story...
Justine was too reliable, too focused, too competent -- in fact, hypercompetent -- in the scene with Marcone. The Justine that Harry saw was only ever "focused" when she was with Thomas (and then focused mostly upon Thomas). The Harry-visible Justine seemed incapable of the trip to Corb, or Marcone, let alone performing the negotiations she did.
We've never had the slightest hint that Justine might have the kind of training she'd need to perform at that level. But if it was Nemesis acting? Yeah, that tracks. 100%
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In that scene Nemesis itself says that it doesn't interact with time like mortals so it'd have a hard time explaining to Dresden. Even if Nemesis isn't lying, it might still be wrong.
Regarding Lara's apparent immunity, I think there's a couple of possibilities. First, White Court Vampire demons, whatever they are, happen to be good at resisting Nemesis. I don't think that this is likely because I would assume that Lea and the Summer Lady would be more resistant than those demons. Second, Papa Raith could have struck a deal to protect himself and his immediate family from possession. We know he made some sort of deal with the Outsiders and we know that he is immune to magic somehow (per Eb). It stands to reason that that Outsider deal caused his immunity to magic and I could see Raith including some clause like "You guys aren't allowed to possess me or any of my immediate family". Even if he doesn't view her like we would want him to, she was a trusted lieutenant for centuries. Third, Lara is more likely than Justine to be examined by beings capable of detecting Nemesis and Nemesis wants to remain hidden.
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Third, Lara is more likely than Justine to be examined by beings capable of detecting Nemesis and Nemesis wants to remain hidden.
I think there is a lot of truth in that. However not so much because she is high profile but because she generally acts very sane and predictable.. Nemesis has infested other high profile people, Aurora, Maeve, Lea, but went undetected for quite some time.
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I think there is a lot of truth in that. However not so much because she is high profile but because she generally acts very sane and predictable.. Nemesis has infested other high profile people, Aurora, Maeve, Lea, but went undetected for quite some time.
I agree with is assessment.
So far the 3 people nemesis has infected that we have spent the most time with have not been bastions of sanity. Lea is erratic and chaotic, she wants to take down Mab. Any strange behavior she exhibits can be written off. Maeve was already a poor WL. Molly says she was not doing her duties properly for sometime. Any change in a behavior was again easy to overlook as her laziness. Aurora was probably of the same cloth. Not sure about her before hand. Every little evidence for her state of mind before nemfection.
Same with Justine any erratic behavior from her will not raise any eyebrows. She cra cra
But with Lara miss cold and efficient, any erratic behavior will probably raise alarms from not just her court but everyone who interacts with here
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I think you mean Lara's envoy!
Good Catch. That is what I was meaning to say.
I'll suggest that Nemesis hasn't taken Lara because it doesn't want Lara.
It wants Justine.
It wants the lover of the Starborn's brother -- Harry is (was) protective of Justine. He saw her as fragile, helpless, and vitally-important to his only blood-relative. That made Harry ripe for manipulation by Justine.
But Lara? Please. An apex-predator, direct threat/foe to Dresden, known manipulator. Harry is maximally on-guard. Lara has almost no value in this context.
Excellent point. Justine as Lara's representative would gather more information (and possibly able to spread the Nemfection) than Lara herself would because people are on their guard against Lara. In addition, Nemesis through Justine would be much more able to control what information Lara received and thus able to exert influence over her actions.
Justine was too reliable, too focused, too competent -- in fact, hypercompetent -- in the scene with Marcone. The Justine that Harry saw was only ever "focused" when she was with Thomas (and then focused mostly upon Thomas). The Harry-visible Justine seemed incapable of the trip to Corb, or Marcone, let alone performing the negotiations she did.
We've never had the slightest hint that Justine might have the kind of training she'd need to perform at that level. But if it was Nemesis acting? Yeah, that tracks. 100%
There is one thing that has bothered me about this whole scenario. In the Even Hand short story, Justine sees Marcone's defenses against a wizard that he set up specifically to deal with Harry. We know from Skin Game that she relayed that information about the defenses to Harry and he uses that to recognize Marcone's defenses at the bank. If she was Nemfected, why did she pass on crucial life saving information to Harry. If she had said nothing there is a chance that Harry dies in the future to Marcone the same way the Fomer wizard did. Yes, there was a plan to potentially use him as a vector to Deomonreach, but having him killed would remove Demonreach's protector possibly allowing them to try the Cold Days attack again. I would think that they would want the Starborn Warden of Demonreach removed.
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There is one thing that has bothered me about this whole scenario. In the Even Hand short story, Justine sees Marcone's defenses against a wizard that he set up specifically to deal with Harry. We know from Skin Game that she relayed that information about the defenses to Harry and he uses that to recognize Marcone's defenses at the bank. If she was Nemfected, why did she pass on crucial life saving information to Harry. If she had said nothing there is a chance that Harry dies in the future to Marcone the same way the Fomer wizard did. Yes, there was a plan to potentially use him as a vector to Deomonreach, but having him killed would remove Demonreach's protector possibly allowing them to try the Cold Days attack again. I would think that they would want the Starborn Warden of Demonreach removed.
There is a fantheory of the "Starborn gone bad" being the "Destroyer" mentioned in the Morgan short, Journal. Also, the retrospective scenes with HWWBehind was to some degree testing/training Harry.
It's possible they were trying to recruit Harry, not kill him.
And maybe there's division among the ranks of the Outsiders -- some hoping to recruit him, some to destroy him.
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There is a fantheory of the "Starborn gone bad" being the "Destroyer" mentioned in the Morgan short, Journal. Also, the retrospective scenes with HWWBehind was to some degree testing/training Harry.
It's possible they were trying to recruit Harry, not kill him.
And maybe there's division among the ranks of the Outsiders -- some hoping to recruit him, some to destroy him.
I think there is a lot of truth in all of this. There are a lot of assumptions of many what a star born is, Drakul and Listens seem to fit that mold, Harry doesn't. Margaret was a very clever woman, she realized that because of his protection that she couldn't kill Lord Raith with her death curse, but she discovered a significant weakness that would render him pretty impotent, starvation. Likewise I believe based on what Lash told Harry, she knew that it would take another star born to battle the Enemy in the BAT, but it wasn't until she met Malcolm and fell in love with him that she decided to conceive one. Like preventing Lord Raith the ability to feed was the key to her curse, conceiving a star child with Malcolm's "good heart" or nature is key to defeating the Enemy. It's this basic trait in his personality that pulls Harry up short when he strays too far to the dark side or into normal star born behavior.. At this time however neither side really understands this, they just make assumptions that Harry is, ergo this is how he is..
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It's possible they were trying to recruit Harry, not kill him.
And maybe there's division among the ranks of the Outsiders -- some hoping to recruit him, some to destroy him.
Division among the Outsiders would be interesting. It reminds me of Supernatural and the angels taking over host bodies and trying to help/hinder Dean and Sam based on their agendas. A conversation between a "good" Nemfected person and Harry would be telling, but I don't see how we could trust anything a Nemfected person said.
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... A conversation between a "good" Nemfected person and Harry would be telling, but I don't see how we could trust anything a Nemfected person said.
Lea might be able to reveal much; but she already has said that she can't even think about Nemesis without risking re-infection.
My bet here is on Elaine. Her Nemfection will be confirmed in the BAT, but Harry will be able to pull her out of that, and she'll be able to give him critical "Outsider Info."
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I think there is a lot of truth in all of this. There are a lot of assumptions of many what a star born is, Drakul and Listens seem to fit that mold, Harry doesn't. Margaret was a very clever woman, she realized that because of his protection that she couldn't kill Lord Raith with her death curse, but she discovered a significant weakness that would render him pretty impotent, starvation. Likewise I believe based on what Lash told Harry, she knew that it would take another star born to battle the Enemy in the BAT, but it wasn't until she met Malcolm and fell in love with him that she decided to conceive one. Like preventing Lord Raith the ability to feed was the key to her curse, conceiving a star child with Malcolm's "good heart" or nature is key to defeating the Enemy. It's this basic trait in his personality that pulls Harry up short when he strays too far to the dark side or into normal star born behavior.. At this time however neither side really understands this, they just make assumptions that Harry is, ergo this is how he is..
So far Harry is an anomaly amongst the Starborn we have met and i think Malcom is the key to that. Its Malcolm's nature that Harry inherited keeps him good. Which is part of the reason why I think Malcom was a plant by Uriel. Not a supernatural being though just a normal guy who is good. Good in the best way possible and good in its everyday form. That shows Harry the way and keeps him from becoming like the other starborn
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So far Harry is an anomaly amongst the Starborn we have met and i think Malcom is the key to that. Its Malcolm's nature that Harry inherited keeps him good. Which is part of the reason why I think Malcom was a plant by Uriel. Not a supernatural being though just a normal guy who is good. Good in the best way possible and good in its everyday form. That shows Harry the way and keeps him from becoming like the other starborn
While Eb never said that Malcolm was a plant by Uriel. I do believe that Eb had soul gazed him to know who this guy was his daughter was so potty over. Eb said that Malcolm had as good a soul as he had ever seen.
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So far Harry is an anomaly amongst the Starborn we have met and i think Malcom is the key to that. Its Malcolm's nature that Harry inherited keeps him good. Which is part of the reason why I think Malcom was a plant by Uriel. Not a supernatural being though just a normal guy who is good. Good in the best way possible and good in its everyday form. That shows Harry the way and keeps him from becoming like the other starborn
I love this idea. I think it's completely within Uriel's wheelhouse and strategy to have a Starborn, wizard-to-be raised by a kind person that can also teach their child about basic misdirection and tricks. Having someone like that just kind of hanging around could be a massive force for good.
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So far Harry is an anomaly amongst the Starborn we have met and i think Malcom is the key to that. Its Malcolm's nature that Harry inherited keeps him good. Which is part of the reason why I think Malcom was a plant by Uriel. Not a supernatural being though just a normal guy who is good. Good in the best way possible and good in its everyday form. That shows Harry the way and keeps him from becoming like the other starborn
I love this idea. I think it's completely within Uriel's wheelhouse and strategy to have a Starborn, wizard-to-be raised by a kind person that can also teach their child about basic misdirection and tricks. Having someone like that just kind of hanging around could be a massive force for good.
How much agency does Uriel have in a situation like this? I can see that he could make Malcom and Maggie Sr's paths cross, but could he go deeper? How much could he have directed Malcom to Maggie Sr? At some point it may start to interfere with free will. As I understand it, Uriel can't interfere with free will. Therefore, he couldn't force Malcom to upend his life to put him on a collision course with Maggie Sr. Was tweaking the circumstances enought to guarantee a meeting? Is a chance meeting enough to cause them to fall in love? So many questions....
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How much agency does Uriel have in a situation like this? I can see that he could make Malcom and Maggie Sr's paths cross, but could he go deeper? How much could he have directed Malcom to Maggie Sr? At some point it may start to interfere with free will. As I understand it, Uriel can't interfere with free will. Therefore, he couldn't force Malcom to upend his life to put him on a collision course with Maggie Sr. Was tweaking the circumstances enought to guarantee a meeting? Is a chance meeting enough to cause them to fall in love? So many questions....
Uriel can't mess with free will.. He can perhaps bring two people to the dance floor, but he cannot make them dance with one another..
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Carrying on the conspiracy theory of Uriel somehow creating the scenario for Malcolm and Maggie getting in love, I would propose that he also created the chance for Harry to meet Michael and, by extension, other Knights. While I agree with all of you that Malcolm is a significant part of what made Harry a "good starborn" I do not want to overlook Michael's influence. In my opinion, Malcolm shaped Harry because he was with him in his first years. And then, after Harry proved to have the potential to be a force for good, Michael was on his path. I imagine that is what people say "God put him in his path" and it could be true in this case.
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Uriel can't mess with free will.. He can perhaps bring two people to the dance floor, but he cannot make them dance with one another..
True you cant force people to dance but you can treak the circumstances of the meeting to make them receptive to the idea. The sun setting at just the right angle, the wind blowing gently enough to make you notice something that you may overlook on any other day.
Im not saying a plant in the way that Uriel forced Malcolm and Margie Sr to fall for each other. Just make sure they meet on the right day , at the right time to fall for each other.
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I imagine that is what people say "God put him in his path" and it could be true in this case.
I agree with Dina on this, however the free will ice gets very thin at this point.. However if the Boss give the orders, I imagine Uriel is then free to tweak the conditions conducive to the desired outcome. Uriel sort of said how that worked back in Changes when he told Harry he could heal his back, but he wasn't allowed to. Uriel could very well have made a gust of wind blow just as Kincaid shot his rifle, just enough to blow the bullet off course enough that yeah, it hit Harry's heart but it wasn't instantly fatal.
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Even if Uriel doesn't interfere with Malcom and Margaret getting together, he could still do a lot of things to help cause a "good starborn". Harry describes Malcolm and Harry being fairly isolated while traveling the countryside. Uriel could protect and shelter them from most threats to ensure that Harry's most formative years are spent with Malcolm. I'd be surprised if Uriel didn't help out with Harry's gift in Christmas Eve. He could have helped supply the memories.
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True you cant force people to dance but you can treak the circumstances of the meeting to make them receptive to the idea. The sun setting at just the right angle, the wind blowing gently enough to make you notice something that you may overlook on any other day.
Im not saying a plant in the way that Uriel forced Malcolm and Margie Sr to fall for each other. Just make sure they meet on the right day , at the right time to fall for each other.
Also I think Uriel has a "see into the heart" ability. He knew when Margaret, on the run, might be receptive to the kindness of a good man.
Remember Ebenezer's testimony about Malcolm -- the best man he ever knew.
Imagine what it would be like for someone escaping a shark like Raith to Soulgaze someone like that...
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Also I think Uriel has a "see into the heart" ability. He knew when Margaret, on the run, might be receptive to the kindness of a good man.
Remember Ebenezer's testimony about Malcolm -- the best man he ever knew.
Imagine what it would be like for someone escaping a shark like Raith to Soulgaze someone like that...
Also meeting Malcolm changed Margaret's whole outlook. We have Chauncy's testimony on that one, he told Harry that they were waiting to receive his mother, and then something changed and she was lost to them.. Who or what was that? Malcolm.
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Also meeting Malcolm changed Margaret's whole outlook. We have Chauncy's testimony on that one, he told Harry that they were waiting to receive his mother, and then something changed and she was lost to them.. Who or what was that? Malcolm.
I think very likely Malcolm was -- in her whole life, amongst scores or hundreds of Soulgazes -- the very first time Margaret gazed upon a genuinely good, kindly, loving soul.
I think that "restored her faith in humanity" -- possibly restored her faith in Creation itself.
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I think very likely Malcolm was -- in her whole life, amongst scores or hundreds of Soulgazes -- the very first time Margaret gazed upon a genuinely good, kindly, loving soul.
I think that "restored her faith in humanity" -- possibly restored her faith in Creation itself.
I think it goes deeper than that, I think Margaret would have a need to do the soul gaze in the first place.