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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: EBRIEN on May 19, 2025, 08:19:33 PM
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I think it's been awhile, but I vaguely remember a discussion about what happens to Thomas. Can't remember exactly, but there's a moment in Harry's discussing the swords in Changes (again--rereading) and I've concluded that Amoracchius will banish his demon and leave him fully human. And then, he'll take up the sword. Or by taking up the sword of Love, he'll be able to keep his demon at bay.
I don't know---some combo of that. I'll go back and find what triggered it for me, but I'm sure I'm not the only one. Maybe Butters slices away the evil and leaves him fully human...???
I don't know--just something. lol
Brien
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I think both theories have been posted here over the years.. It will be interesting to see what happens now. Actually Alfred might be able to "jail" the Hunger Demon leaving just Thomas minus the parasite.
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I think both theories have been posted here over the years.. It will be interesting to see what happens now. Actually Alfred might be able to "jail" the Hunger Demon leaving just Thomas minus the parasite.
I would be very surprised if Alfred can do that.
Someone once asked JB if Mab could remove Thomas' demon. IIRC, JB said something like, yes, she could. She could tear it right out of him. The problem would be that there wouldn't be much left of Thomas when she got done.
The problem seems to be that after that first lethal feeding, the hunger demon and the human soul are more or less grafted together, sort of like a tree graft. There's no sharp dividing line where one stops and the other begins, even though they are not the same entity either. (A grafted tree is physically one organism, but genetically two or more, too.)
Harry sort of saw this in his soulgaze with Thomas back in the day, in the Gaze, he saw human Thomas, the person he would have been if the parasite had been destroyed in time: not quite so handsome, apparently a bit nearsighted, and struggling with but locked to the demonic entity.
It's that spiritual 'grafting' that makes separating Thomas and the demon (or Lara, or any of them) so hard. If you tear out the demon, you tear out some of the human with it, too. Such a separation would thus need both immense power, and surgical precision, if it's doable at all.
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We do know that there's an angel in each of the blades and we know that Demonreach is willing to work with Mab. There's a chance that the angel in the blade would work with Demonreach to remove Thomas's Hunger Demon with Harry working as liaison. Thomas may not want the Hunger Demon removed though. He's explicitly given a chance to "contemplate" everything he's done including all the hurts he's given. He may come to accept his Hunger Demon or may love the chance to remove it.
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Someone once asked JB if Mab could remove Thomas' demon. IIRC, JB said something like, yes, she could. She could tear it right out of him. The problem would be that there wouldn't be much left of Thomas when she got done.
I just came across that WOJ a couple of days ago when I was trying to find out something else. The question then becomes what did Jim mean by that? Did he mean physically tear it out and Thomas would be ripped to shreds? Or did Jim mean once his Hunger was gone, the vampire aspect and all it's perks would be gone and we'd be left with a vanilla Thomas. Going by his soul gaze with Harry and Harry's vision of Thomas struggling with the Demon, remember what that Thomas looked like? He was this slight weak looking man with glasses, nope not much of Thomas left, at least the Thomas we've always known.
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To answer the question of if Thomas can be separated from the Hunger Demon we have to understand what the Demon is. To my knowledge the author has never full stated what it is or how it develops (other than it lies dormant until the first sexual encounter). Is it some form of spirit? Is it part of the mind? Is it some part of Thomas' actual physical form? I think its nature would determine if/how it can be removed and how much of Thomas is left over when it is gone.
I think it's been awhile, but I vaguely remember a discussion about what happens to Thomas. Can't remember exactly, but there's a moment in Harry's discussing the swords in Changes (again--rereading) and I've concluded that Amoracchius will banish his demon and leave him fully human. And then, he'll take up the sword. Or by taking up the sword of Love, he'll be able to keep his demon at bay.
I don't know---some combo of that. I'll go back and find what triggered it for me, but I'm sure I'm not the only one. Maybe Butters slices away the evil and leaves him fully human...???
I do not think the Sword of Faith would work. Its power on mortals is diminished. In Peace Talks they discuss the sword and how it would only work on true evil and Michael/Harry state that you would have to be absolute to qualify as evil and thus able to be impacted by the sword.
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I do not think the Sword of Faith would work. Its power on mortals is diminished. In Peace Talks they discuss the sword and how it would only work on true evil and Michael/Harry state that you would have to be absolute to qualify as evil and thus able to be impacted by the sword.
Which is very weird since Susan in Death Masks was unable to touch the Sword of Faith, yet in Changes she could wield the Sword of Love. Yeah, I understand it was out of love to save her daughter, but the other time she was helping Harry escape Nic and he merely asked her to hold it for him while he tried to climb a ladder out if I remember correctly and he was too weak to carry Sword and climb. Evil is evil, so in the first case her vamp half qualified as evil, but in the second case it didn't or was overlooked?
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Which is very weird since Susan in Death Masks was unable to touch the Sword of Faith, yet in Changes she could wield the Sword of Love. Yeah, I understand it was out of love to save her daughter, but the other time she was helping Harry escape Nic and he merely asked her to hold it for him while he tried to climb a ladder out if I remember correctly and he was too weak to carry Sword and climb. Evil is evil, so in the first case her vamp half qualified as evil, but in the second case it didn't or was overlooked?
In the second case harry was now the Keeper of the swords Chosen by Uriel to keep them, and use them if he saw fit. Susan and Murphy were one time exceptions. Susan's love was apparently enough for the angel to overlook the evil inside her. If she tried to use the sword for anything but protecting her daughter and saving her it would have rejected her. On the first case harry was not the sword Keeper he was just some guy.
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I am convinced that the fact that Butters sword can kill the evil but not normal humans was introduced so we can get rid of the vampire in Thomas. But of course, I may be wrong.
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Which is very weird since Susan in Death Masks was unable to touch the Sword of Faith, yet in Changes she could wield the Sword of Love. Yeah, I understand it was out of love to save her daughter, but the other time she was helping Harry escape Nic and he merely asked her to hold it for him while he tried to climb a ladder out if I remember correctly and he was too weak to carry Sword and climb. Evil is evil, so in the first case her vamp half qualified as evil, but in the second case it didn't or was overlooked?
In the second case harry was now the Keeper of the swords Chosen by Uriel to keep them, and use them if he saw fit. Susan and Murphy were one time exceptions. Susan's love was apparently enough for the angel to overlook the evil inside her. If she tried to use the sword for anything but protecting her daughter and saving her it would have rejected her. On the first case harry was not the sword Keeper he was just some guy.
There is a slight difference between those occasions and what we see/learn in Peace Talks. The Sword of Faith has been transformed by its destruction and then reforming by Butters. It is more black and white now since it is now a more pure expression instead of a physical sword.
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To answer the question of if Thomas can be separated from the Hunger Demon we have to understand what the Demon is. To my knowledge the author has never full stated what it is or how it develops (other than it lies dormant until the first sexual encounter). Is it some form of spirit? Is it part of the mind? Is it some part of Thomas' actual physical form? I think its nature would determine if/how it can be removed and how much of Thomas is left over when it is gone.
I do not think the Sword of Faith would work. Its power on mortals is diminished. In Peace Talks they discuss the sword and how it would only work on true evil and Michael/Harry state that you would have to be absolute to qualify as evil and thus able to be impacted by the sword.
More to the point, would Uriel be allowed to cure Thomas?
I have no doubt Uriel has the power to separate Thomas and his parasite. I'm pretty sure Uriel is the most powerful entity Harry has ever encountered, with the possible exception of Ferro or both Mothers together, and I would bet against Ferro and the Mothers in that comparison.
But Uriel is bound by a whole bunch of rules about what he is and isn't allowed to do.
Also, I'm not sure if Uriel could separate the parasite and Thomas without turning Thomas into someone else. It comes back to the question of how much of Thomas comes from the human and how much from the presence of the parasite.
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More to the point, would Uriel be allowed to cure Thomas?
Exactly, that is the question for all eternity for archangels.
Also, I'm not sure if Uriel could separate the parasite and Thomas without turning Thomas into someone else. It comes back to the question of how much of Thomas comes from the human and how much from the presence of the parasite.
I think the answer is both simple and complicated at the same time. Uriel is all about free will, he might be able to blow away an entire galaxy if he wanted to.. However he cannot because he is under orders not to unless ordered to by his Boss. Archangels don't have free will to act, that's why one of his fellows by the name of Lucifer now resides in Hell, he thought he had free will and fought for it. So yes, I think if he wanted to, Uriel could get rid of the Hunger Demon, but he isn't free to act on his own. It's like in Changes when he agreed with Harry that he could fix his broken back, but there are rules for doing that, and Harry didn't qualify under the set of rules. However since a fallen angel influenced Harry's free will, Uriel was able to step in. Back to free will, as we know the Hunger Demon cannot take root until the young would be vampire chooses to have sex, feeds during that sex until death of the victim.. Lots of compulsions there and teenage hormones, but it still comes down to choices. We know that true love will burn out the Hunger Demon, which was the hope Thomas and Lara had for their little sister Inara. However I don't think there is any information on whether celibacy past a certain age eventually kills the demon/parasite. Celibacy is a life choice that Thomas didn't make, however in his case there might be some loop holes as far as free will goes. Lord Raith did set his son up like he did all his children to end up having sex once puberty sets in knowing that in most cases it will be until death, from then on the Hunger Demon/parasite takes over. We know that Lara has said that she is happy being what she is, she wouldn't chose anything else, she accepts it. However while he did go through a time when Thomas almost starved himself when he was living with Harry, and Harry saw that struggle in the soul gaze, have we ever heard Thomas say if he had it to do over he'd choose to be a vanilla human? Interesting that both he and Lara wanted their little sister, Inara to understand and have that choice. Lara says she wouldn't change a thing, Thomas isn't quite so clear..
So could Uriel do away with the Hunger Demon/parasite? Absolutely.. Can Uriel do away with the Hunger Demon/parasite under the rules governing archangels? Probably not.. Is there a possible loop hole here? I think so, but it is complicated..
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To answer the question ofTo answer the question of if Thomas can be separated from the Hunger Demon we have to understand what the Demon is. To my knowledge the author has never full stated what it is or how it develops (other than it lies dormant until the first sexual encounter). Is it some form To my knowledge the author has never full stated what it is or how it develops (other than it lies dormant until the first sexual encounter). Is it some form of spirit? Is it part of the mind? Is it some part of Thomas' actual physical form? I think its nature would determine if/how it can be removed.
Also also, the demon or parasite is part of Thomas. Im not sure you can remove it and the character that remains would still be thomas. Its part of everything he does one way or another. Does the demon have any influence on his thought proces. Or is it just constantly there in the background. Is like Lash or is it a part of Thomas's mind. Where is the line between thomas and the demln
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Im not sure you can remove it and the character that remains would still be thomas. Its part of everything he does one way or another. Does the demon have any influence on his thought proces. Or is it just constantly there in the background. Is like Lash or is it a part of Thomas's mind. Where is the line between thomas and the demln
If you go by the soul gaze Harry and Thomas had, there is some connection between Thomas and Harry. In the soul gaze their arms are connected with their fingers/claws digging into each others forearms. To me this suggests that there will be some loss in trying to separate them. The question is what and how much of Thomas will be removed with the parasite.
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If you go by the soul gaze Harry and Thomas had, there is some connection between Thomas and Harry. In the soul gaze their arms are connected with their fingers/claws digging into each others forearms. To me this suggests that there will be some loss in trying to separate them. The question is what and how much of Thomas will be removed with the parasite.
I see that soul gaze struggle between Thomas and himself as a struggle for his soul. His vanilla human half struggling to remain human and his demon wanting to take over.. I think all of human Thomas will remain if the demon is removed, but we saw that image also in the soul gaze. A slight human with glasses, physically more like Butters than the physical hunk he has been all of his life. The question then becomes, can Thomas deal with being a mere ordinary vanilla human?
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I see that soul gaze struggle between Thomas and himself as a struggle for his soul. His vanilla human half struggling to remain human and his demon wanting to take over.. I think all of human Thomas will remain if the demon is removed, but we saw that image also in the soul gaze. A slight human with glasses, physically more like Butters than the physical hunk he has been all of his life. The question then becomes, can Thomas deal with being a mere ordinary vanilla human?
That is an excellent question. Thomas may hate his demon, but does he comprehend who he will be without it? Gone are the good looks and the perfect skin. No more super strength or endurance. Thomas will not be able to help his brother in the same way that he is accustomed to. He has said that he wishes his demon gone, but has he lived to long with it to fully enjoy life without it?
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That is an excellent question. Thomas may hate his demon, but does he comprehend who he will be without it? Gone are the good looks and the perfect skin. No more super strength or endurance. Thomas will not be able to help his brother in the same way that he is accustomed to. He has said that he wishes his demon gone, but has he lived to long with it to fully enjoy life without it?
Lara understands that, and loves what she is, accepts what she is.. Thomas hadn't fully until the Skinwalker got a hold of him.
Thomas changed and seemingly made a choice, interesting scene at the zoo at the end of Turncoat. Harry appalled because Thomas told him he enjoyed what he was doing after a while. Actually Lara was delighted with that outcome and didn't want Harry messing with Thomas on that score..
We never got to see that struggle for the heart and mind of Thomas between Lara and Harry. Or Harry having to come to grips that his brother was now no different from other vampires now. I was disappointed that we didn't.
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Lara understands that, and loves what she is, accepts what she is.. Thomas hadn't fully until the Skinwalker got a hold of him.
Thomas changed and seemingly made a choice, interesting scene at the zoo at the end of Turncoat. Harry appalled because Thomas told him he enjoyed what he was doing after a while. Actually Lara was delighted with that outcome and didn't want Harry messing with Thomas on that score..
We never got to see that struggle for the heart and mind of Thomas between Lara and Harry. Or Harry having to come to grips that his brother was now no different from other vampires now. I was disappointed that we didn't.
I agree that Turncoat brought about a change for Thomas, but we still see glimpses of who he was before that book. His relationship with Justine being a prime example. If he had truly gone all the way back into the fold and become a "good little vampire" then he should have kicked Justine to the curb and gone to disposable lovers.
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I agree that Turncoat brought about a change for Thomas, but we still see glimpses of who he was before that book. His relationship with Justine being a prime example. If he had truly gone all the way back into the fold and become a "good little vampire" then he should have kicked Justine to the curb and gone to disposable lovers.
I understand that, and that is what I find disappointing! We never saw that developmental progress in Thomas! I would have loved to have seen Thomas as a full hard assed predator for at least one full book, and Harry and Justine trying to deal with that!
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I understand that, and that is what I find disappointing! We never saw that developmental progress in Thomas! I would have loved to have seen Thomas as a full hard assed predator for at least one full book, and Harry and Justine trying to deal with that!
Maybe we can get a short story along the lines of what you said or maybe he has to pretend to be the full predator to throw Lara off his scent and we could still get a glimpse of the White Court nightlife.
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Maybe we can get a short story along the lines of what you said or maybe he has to pretend to be the full predator to throw Lara off his scent and we could still get a glimpse of the White Court nightlife.
I think it is a bit late for a short story, not that it wouldn't be nice but now it would have no impact.
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I think it is a bit late for a short story, not that it wouldn't be nice but now it would have no impact.
Yes and no. It would not have a big narrative impact since we are past that point in the storyline. It could still have a big emotional impact. For example, the microfiction Goodbye detailing Kincaids goodbye to Ivy as he heads off to kill Harry was not released until 2020 in the lead up to Peace Talks. Narratively we were far beyond that point story-wise, but the story was still an emotional gut punch. A short story detailing Thomas' struggles with his return to the predator lifestyle could also tug at the heart strings especially as it relates to Justine since we now know that Justine is nemfected.
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Yes and no. It would not have a big narrative impact since we are past that point in the storyline. It could still have a big emotional impact. For example, the microfiction Goodbye detailing Kincaids goodbye to Ivy as he heads off to kill Harry was not released until 2020 in the lead up to Peace Talks. Narratively we were far beyond that point story-wise, but the story was still an emotional gut punch. A short story detailing Thomas' struggles with his return to the predator lifestyle could also tug at the heart strings especially as it relates to Justine since we now know that Justine is nemfected.
Nothing was wrong about the timing of the short story about when Kincaid said good bye to Ivy. Because the point of the story in my opinion was the emotional change in Ivy and the two people in her life that she had an emotional connection to. Something the Archive, for her sanity is supposed to look up to. Kincaid was her body guard, but in many ways he was a surrogate father to her, and whether he'd admit to it or not had those kinds of feelings towards her. Harry gave her her name, and like Kincaid saw her as a little girl more than the Archive.. Ivy felt affection for both men and felt betrayed by Harry wanting to take his own life, and by Kincaid willing to take it for a price. With that she shut herself off from both men emotionally and became what the Archive is supposed to be.
While yes, as a character Ivy is important, she isn't as important to the story as Thomas is. There is a huge gap in his development as a character between Turn Coat and Changes, that disappoints me.
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Nothing was wrong about the timing of the short story about when Kincaid said good bye to Ivy. Because the point of the story in my opinion was the emotional change in Ivy and the two people in her life that she had an emotional connection to. Something the Archive, for her sanity is supposed to look up to. Kincaid was her body guard, but in many ways he was a surrogate father to her, and whether he'd admit to it or not had those kinds of feelings towards her. Harry gave her her name, and like Kincaid saw her as a little girl more than the Archive.. Ivy felt affection for both men and felt betrayed by Harry wanting to take his own life, and by Kincaid willing to take it for a price. With that she shut herself off from both men emotionally and became what the Archive is supposed to be.
While yes, as a character Ivy is important, she isn't as important to the story as Thomas is. There is a huge gap in his development as a character between Turn Coat and Changes, that disappoints me.
I agree that the short story did an excellent job of exploring the dynamic between Kincaid and Ivy and laying the groundwork for ramifications of that fallout with both Kincaid and Harry in future books. All of this despite this story taking place during Changes and being released 3 books and 10 years after the fact. I think that something similar could be done with Thomas. We can go back and time and look at a period of his life where he is balancing his "newly" found predatory lifestyle and how that is integrated with his relationship with Justine. All to give a greater depth to future events like Thomas and his guilt when he is released from the crystal, Thomas and the hunt for the nemfected Justine, and/or a confrontation between Thomas and a nemfected Justine.
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I am almost convinced that either Butters' sword will kill the Hunger Demon or that Harry will find a way to release only Thomas' human part from Demonreach, separating him from the Hunger Demon. This would mean, the Hunger would stay in stasis.
Either way, I think Jim will write it so that Thomas becomes human. I think, in Jim's opinion Thomas' character has become boring and it needs some "juice", not in form of a power upgrade, but as some sort of downgrade and to show his struggles in finding a new purpose and identity. Especially now that Thomas has seemingly come to accept his vampire nature and found a way to live with it.
Thomas in story has mostly been additional muscle with banter and family bonus and vampire troubles.
But there is so much more to him. All the internal struggles, the difficult family situation (Papa Raith, White Court, wizard descendant) makes him interesting, but this has mostly been in the background and only brought into light when it was important for the story. I think it's a pity: there is so much more to Thomas than just the pretty muscle with some deniable problems. Deniable is not my opinion, it's just how it feels to me that Harry sometimes behaves toward his brother. I was a bit shocked at his dismissive reaction to Thomas revealing that Justine was pregnant.
So I think, he will become fully human, maybe during his time of adjustment, he finds out that he has a little magical talent, maybe not. Maybe it's just weak like some paranetters.
And there is of course still the Justine situation: there will be grief, a search going on for the woman and the baby and who knows how this will turn out.
And then, but not too soon, he will find out that he was meant for Amoraccius from the beginning.
Thomas taking up the sword after becoming human is in my opinion the only solution for him to stay in Harry's world, to become "useful" again. From the story's perspective.
The other would be becoming a wizard, but I don't think his talent would be relevant in future events, meaning the BAT, Outsiders breaking through the Gates and so on. But the Sword of Love will be.
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Thomas taking up the sword after becoming human is in my opinion the only solution for him to stay in Harry's world, to become "useful" again. From the story's perspective.
The other would be becoming a wizard, but I don't think his talent would be relevant in future events, meaning the BAT, Outsiders breaking through the Gates and so on. But the Sword of Love will be.
I agree, and that will be good, but I am still disappointed because the first part of that story is missing. I think too much page time was wasted on the Harry/Murphy romance that could have spent on Thomas.. I know I will get slammed for that, but Murphy had very good reasons for her and Harry not to get together and she stated them back in Proven Guilty.. She might have still be alive even if she had continued as one of Harry's best friends and kick ass supporters, actually that was refreshing!
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So I think, he will become fully human, maybe during his time of adjustment, he finds out that he has a little magical talent, maybe not. Maybe it's just weak like some paranetters.
And there is of course still the Justine situation: there will be grief, a search going on for the woman and the baby and who knows how this will turn out.
And then, but not too soon, he will find out that he was meant for Amoraccius from the beginning.
Thomas taking up the sword after becoming human is in my opinion the only solution for him to stay in Harry's world, to become "useful" again. From the story's perspective.
The other would be becoming a wizard, but I don't think his talent would be relevant in future events, meaning the BAT, Outsiders breaking through the Gates and so on. But the Sword of Love will be.
Just as a side note, Thomas already has some magical talent. Here is a WOJ:
‘Are there White Court vampire wizards?’
Yes, there are. Thomas is middle-of-the-road in power and [ed: think I’m remembering this correctly] the strongest don’t get as strong as mortal wizards [/ed], but they can pull off some strong tricks with their Hunger.
In addition, in the short story where Thomas has to fight in the Oblivion War, Thomas uses a tracking spell to find Harry and mentions that he (Thomas) views magic like a mechanic or a plumber (I forget which) whereas Harry views magic as a higher purpose. If Thomas does decided to pursue magic more it would be interesting to see his viewpoint on magic change.
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Just as a side note, Thomas already has some magical talent. Here is a WOJ:
In addition, in the short story where Thomas has to fight in the Oblivion War, Thomas uses a tracking spell to find Harry and mentions that he (Thomas) views magic like a mechanic or a plumber (I forget which) whereas Harry views magic as a higher purpose. If Thomas does decided to pursue magic more it would be interesting to see his viewpoint on magic change.
Cool, thanks for the WoJ.
Yes, I do remember Thomas using tracking spells. This sounds as if magical ability in WCVs can only go to a certain level. Could be suppressed by the Hunger Demon. That's why I think, he might have magic, but not to which extent. But I am not sure if he has used his abilities enough for the magic not to "dry out", like it did in Charity.
Ok, Charity didn't use her magic at all for years and I think Thomas uses his more regularly, though only occasional tracking spells.
And yes, it will be interesting to see how and if his viewpoint would change if he can no longer rely on his vampire powers.
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Cool, thanks for the WoJ.
Yes, I do remember Thomas using tracking spells. This sounds as if magical ability in WCVs can only go to a certain level. Could be suppressed by the Hunger Demon. That's why I think, he might have magic, but not to which extent. But I am not sure if he has used his abilities enough for the magic not to "dry out", like it did in Charity.
Ok, Charity didn't use her magic at all for years and I think Thomas uses his more regularly, though only occasional tracking spells.
And yes, it will be interesting to see how and if his viewpoint would change if he can no longer rely on his vampire powers.
Yes, I remember Thomas using that tracking spell as well, though if I remember correctly, he said it was a pretty basic skill akin to Butters being able to do a protective magic circle. However that being said, Thomas might be just being modest. Or his talent was never allowed to show itself and develop because the last thing Lord Raith would have wanted was one of his sons to have magical talent and kick his ass with it some day. Especially if Thomas was aware that Lord Raith murdered his mother, like Harry, he would want revenge. It just makes sense genetically that Thomas would be born with some talent considering his mother, grandfather, and brother are or were powerful wizards. Thomas may not have the magical talent of his half brother, mother, or grandfather but he could be on the level of the members of the Paranet. It would explain his connection to them as a protector, also Elaine may have taught him what magic he does know.
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However that being said, Thomas might be just being modest. Or his talent was never allowed to show itself and develop because the last thing Lord Raith would have wanted was one of his sons to have magical talent and kick his ass with it some day. Especially if Thomas was aware that Lord Raith murdered his mother, like Harry, he would want revenge. It just makes sense genetically that Thomas would be born with some talent considering his mother, grandfather, and brother are or were powerful wizards.
I can definitely see Lord Raith actively discouraging Thomas and/or trying to prevent Thomas from learning magic. To keep him weaker and thus easier to dispose of, out of fear because of what Maggie Sr did to him, and as a means of control over Thomas.
Cool, thanks for the WoJ.
Yes, I do remember Thomas using tracking spells. This sounds as if magical ability in WCVs can only go to a certain level. Could be suppressed by the Hunger Demon. That's why I think, he might have magic, but not to which extent. But I am not sure if he has used his abilities enough for the magic not to "dry out", like it did in Charity.
Ok, Charity didn't use her magic at all for years and I think Thomas uses his more regularly, though only occasional tracking spells.
And yes, it will be interesting to see how and if his viewpoint would change if he can no longer rely on his vampire powers.
Charity was actively denying/suppressing her powers out of shame. Thomas spent time and effort to learn how to at least do a tracking spell and has used it actively. We don't know how often. We don't know what other spells he may know. If his vampiric nature is stripped away and he is fully human, I agree that it would make sense for him to explore his magical talents more. This would allow him to still fight the good fight and not shift away from the supernatural completely. It sets up an interesting scenario of Harry having to train him and them butting heads.
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Charity was actively denying/suppressing her powers out of shame. Thomas spent time and effort to learn how to at least do a tracking spell and has used it actively. We don't know how often. We don't know what other spells he may know. If his vampiric nature is stripped away and he is fully human, I agree that it would make sense for him to explore his magical talents more. This would allow him to still fight the good fight and not shift away from the supernatural completely. It sets up an interesting scenario of Harry having to train him and them butting heads.
It's a hard call at this point. Yes, Thomas learned some elementary or rudimentary spells, but on the surface anyway, he didn't seem interested on learning more. Was that because as a vampire he didn't think he needed to know more? Did he fear his father would kill him outright if he did? Remember Thomas was very into playing the dumb playboy type to stay alive, when we first meet him because of his father. Or is this in fact as far as Thomas can go with his talent? He has had his chances to learn more, he lived with Harry for a year and he was a protector of the Paranet and had contact with Elaine. Was he also afraid of the Wardens if they figured out how talented he really was? One problem with that if I remember correctly, Harry seems to have a "spidy sense" vibs when he is around someone with considerable magical talent, he has never mentioned it as far as Thomas goes.. But then again I could be remembering that wrong, and Harry also has been clueless at times. One more question, and it may be elementary because Thomas was very young when Margaret left him for Malcolm.. Surely she would have known that as her son, Thomas potentially had talent, maybe lots of talent. She had to also know how dangerous a WCV wizard would or could be. So knowing this, why did she leave him behind? Yeah, maybe roll of the dice, no talent, little talent, potential kick ass wizard, worth the chance? Or did she have ways of blocking that aspect of her genes when she conceived Thomas with Raith? Or did she have another way of knowing her six year old son's magical talent would be limited at best?
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. One more question, and it may be elementary because Thomas was very young when Margaret left him for Malcolm.. Surely she would have known that as her son, Thomas potentially had talent, maybe lots of talent. She had to also know how dangerous a WCV wizard would or could be. So knowing this, why did she leave him behind? Yeah, maybe roll of the dice, no talent, little talent, potential kick ass wizard, worth the chance? Or did she have ways of blocking that aspect of her genes when she conceived Thomas with Raith? Or did she have another way of knowing her six year old son's magical talent would be limited at best?
I have wondered a lot about what made Margaret decide to leave Thomas behind? In some thoughts she is the villain, in some the victim. Maybe she thought that a life on the run would be less safe for her child than staying at home with his abusive father but being integrated into a strong family clan with at least one loving sister (Lara).
Or was she forced to leave alone in a situation of flight or death?
Or did she make a bargain with someone/fae (Leanansidhe?) or with Lara for protection for Thomas?
Did she suppress his magical talent to make him seem like no threat to Raith's power?
How involved was she in the plan to produce a starborn child? And when her first attempt failed, she left her failure (Thomas) like garbage to try again?
There is so much we don't know. I hope that there will be more information in later books.
There seemed to be some love between her and Thomas, or she wouldn't have linked her sons' amulets to trigger her appearance during their soul gaze. But for her to do that, she must have known that there will be a future second child.
Was she prescient? Or did someone tell her? Or did she plan it all ahead?
All questions I'd like to be answered.
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It's a hard call at this point. Yes, Thomas learned some elementary or rudimentary spells, but on the surface anyway, he didn't seem interested on learning more. Was that because as a vampire he didn't think he needed to know more? Did he fear his father would kill him outright if he did? Remember Thomas was very into playing the dumb playboy type to stay alive, when we first meet him because of his father. Or is this in fact as far as Thomas can go with his talent? He has had his chances to learn more, he lived with Harry for a year and he was a protector of the Paranet and had contact with Elaine. Was he also afraid of the Wardens if they figured out how talented he really was? One problem with that if I remember correctly, Harry seems to have a "spidy sense" vibs when he is around someone with considerable magical talent, he has never mentioned it as far as Thomas goes.. But then again I could be remembering that wrong, and Harry also has been clueless at times. One more question, and it may be elementary because Thomas was very young when Margaret left him for Malcolm.. Surely she would have known that as her son, Thomas potentially had talent, maybe lots of talent. She had to also know how dangerous a WCV wizard would or could be. So knowing this, why did she leave him behind? Yeah, maybe roll of the dice, no talent, little talent, potential kick ass wizard, worth the chance? Or did she have ways of blocking that aspect of her genes when she conceived Thomas with Raith? Or did she have another way of knowing her six year old son's magical talent would be limited at best?
You are absolutely correct that Thomas has had the opportunity to learn more if he wanted to. It brings up the question of where he learned his basic spells from. Did Harry teach him that? If so, why did Thomas not learn more? It very well could be out of fear as Mira suggested. Fear of the Council or fear of his father/Lara viewing him as a threat.
As far as Harry having a "spidey sense" with regards to magical talent, he can tell either through direct physical contact with someone or by deliberately reaching out with his senses to scan their aura. Harry has said that when he touches another person with magical talent it feels like an electric shock with bigger jolts corresponding to bigger talents. If I recall correctly, actively sensing someone's aura is harder to do and more invasive. It is uncomfortable for the wizard having their aura scanned and therefore not considered polite. Most wizards do not do that for that reason. In addition, wizards can shield their aura at least partly. As far as Maggie Sr goes, we know that magic is passed along the female line. Therefore, she would have had to know that Thomas would have had a chance at inheriting magic. Magical talent does not express until early teenage years and I do not think there is a way to gauge magic talent before it is expressed.
I have wondered a lot about what made Margaret decide to leave Thomas behind? In some thoughts she is the villain, in some the victim. Maybe she thought that a life on the run would be less safe for her child than staying at home with his abusive father but being integrated into a strong family clan with at least one loving sister (Lara).
Or was she forced to leave alone in a situation of flight or death?
I think somewhere there is a WOJ that Maggie had already met Malcom and was pregnant with Harry when she left Raith for good and went into hiding. If I was guessing, I think she left to protect Harry and could not safely take Thomas with her. Especially if she knew Harry would be starborn and was trying to keep Raith from getting his hands on Harry.
Or did she make a bargain with someone/fae (Leanansidhe?) or with Lara for protection for Thomas?
I do not know if she made a bargain with Lara, but the author states that she did not make a bargain with Lea covering Thomas because she figured Thomas was a baby shark and could protect himself.
Did she suppress his magical talent to make him seem like no threat to Raith's power?
Until he was old enough to express his magical talent there was nothing for her to suppress. Unless she was able to put some type of shield over him tied to his lifeline/soul before he expressed his talent in order to hide it from prying eyes. We know she tied the death curse on Lord Raith to her kids life, so it is possible to tie a spell to someone.
How involved was she in the plan to produce a starborn child? And when her first attempt failed, she left her failure (Thomas) like garbage to try again?
Someone asked the author this specifically. He said that Thomas was not planned and was just the result of having lots of awesome vampire sex. No word on if Harry was intentionally conceived to be starborn or not. We know that Maggie Sr loved Harry's father so he could just be a result that love and cosmic coincidence or she could have been shooting for a specific time to become pregnant by Malcom.
There seemed to be some love between her and Thomas, or she wouldn't have linked her sons' amulets to trigger her appearance during their soul gaze. But for her to do that, she must have known that there will be a future second child.
Was she prescient? Or did someone tell her? Or did she plan it all ahead?
She knew she was pregnant when she set up the amulet linkage. She might have even had Harry at that point. In the amulet message to Thomas she told him to look out for his brother. Thomas had memories of his mother and already knew that he had a brother.
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As far as Harry having a "spidey sense" with regards to magical talent, he can tell either through direct physical contact with someone or by deliberately reaching out with his senses to scan their aura. Harry has said that when he touches another person with magical talent it feels like an electric shock with bigger jolts corresponding to bigger talents. If I recall correctly, actively sensing someone's aura is harder to do and more invasive. It is uncomfortable for the wizard having their aura scanned and therefore not considered polite. Most wizards do not do that for that reason. In addition, wizards can shield their aura at least partly. As far as Maggie Sr goes, we know that magic is passed along the female line. Therefore, she would have had to know that Thomas would have had a chance at inheriting magic. Magical talent does not express until early teenage years and I do not think there is a way to gauge magic talent before it is expressed.
During their soul gaze, Harry would have been in close contact with the aura of Thomas, plus the soul gaze itself should have revealed something about it. I say that considering what Harry saw in his gaze with Molly, her possible futures. Magical talent was one of the things not mentioned.. Plus that was the moment that Margaret gifted Harry with insight, no insight as far as talent and Thomas was concerned. As far no way of gauging whether or not Thomas had talent before hand, maybe not, but Margaret was also the only wizard in her death curse to have had any effect on Lord Raith at all. Eb, the Blackstaff himself wasn't able to accomplish that, perhaps she also found a way to block any magical genes she could pass on to any offspring she could conceive with Lord Raith. Remember she also figured out how to create a star born, so this might have been child's play for her. Most star borns are accidents in my opinion, just a matter of being born in the right time when the stars are aligned. However Harry was no accident, he was planned, and Margaret only planned his birth after she met Malcolm.. Malcolm's genes were very important to her so she wouldn't end up with another Drakul or Listens. I think Margaret knew that once she left Lord Raith, it would be such a blow to his ego that she was a dead woman walking. She may have also thought that once she was dead, while Harry maybe safe for a while at least with Malcolm, Thomas wouldn't be. Raith may have thought that the infant Harry even if he grew up to be a wizard would be no threat to him, while a vampire son of his would be. That's why Raith did indeed kill off all of his sons.. Thomas lasted longer than most, but he was living on borrowed time.
Then there would be the matter of how does a vanilla human raise a would be vampire son? No, Margaret knew Lara very well, and knew that Thomas would be safe in her care, so she may have thought leaving him with Lara was the best thing she could do for him. Notice to that Thomas has never harbored any resentment or ill feelings towards his mother for leaving him.
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Quote fromTalby16:
She knew she was pregnant when she set up the amulet linkage. She might have even had Harry at that point. In the amulet message to Thomas she told him to look out for his brother. Thomas had memories of his mother and already knew that he had a brother.
Oh, you might be correct. I just looked up the timeline. I always thought that she met Malcolm after her escape. Now it makes sense: she needed to escape and leave Thomas, because she was pregnant with a non vampire child in a vampire household.
~26-27 BSF: Thomas is given a pentacle necklace on his fifth birthday. His mother escapes Lord Raith.
26 BSF: Maggie LeFay meets Malcolm Dresden.
~25 BSF: Collin Murphy saves rookie CPD officer Rawlins from an unspecified supernatural creature in a dark alley, killing it with a shotgun full of rock salt. (~30 years before Dead Beat)
26 BSF, some time between August and October – Malcolm Dresden and his heavily-pregnant wife Margaret visit the Lincoln Memorial.
26 BSF, October 31: Harry is born. Harry’s mother, now Margaret Gwendolyn Dresden, dies in childbirth. She is murdered by a ritual entropy curse, courtesy of Lord Raith.
My thoughts on Harry being planned are from IIRC two comments somewhere in the books: I can't remember who said it, but it went like "what they bred you for" (was it Nicodemus or Dracul?) and "what he was meant to be" by Martha Liberty or Listens-to-Wind in Summer Knight. This implies that Harry's existence didn't seem to be random.
@Talby16: so, Thomas wasn't planned. What a relief.
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Oh, you might be correct. I just looked up the timeline. I always thought that she met Malcolm after her escape. Now it makes sense: she needed to escape and leave Thomas, because she was pregnant with a non vampire child in a vampire household.
That's the one thing Eb does tell Harry about Margaret in Blood Rites, that after she met and fell in love with Malcolm,she found the strength to leave Lord Raith.
My thoughts on Harry being planned are from IIRC two comments somewhere in the books: I can't remember who said it, but it went like "what they bred you for" (was it Nicodemus or Dracul?) and "what he was meant to be" by Martha Liberty or Listens-to-Wind in Summer Knight. This implies that Harry's existence didn't seem to be random.
@Talby16: so, Thomas wasn't planned. What a relief.
Lash spells it out for Harry in White Night, his conception was no accident, a lot of factors go into it. Now not clear was this something that Margaret thought up on her own? Doubtful since everyone but Harry seem to know what Harry is and why he was conceived, so a given that a star born would be conceived. However who, or what planned this is a bit more of a mystery. If the White Council planned it, it's doubtful they would choose Margaret, an outlaw basically, to be the mother of their star born.. Martha Liberty did say to Listens to Wind that they knew what Harry was meant to be, or more accurate they suspect, or believe, dangerous and not nice, i.e. Listen and Drakul.. However Margaret seemingly on her own again, if Lash is to be believed in White Night decided to do this after she fell in love with a truly good man, Malcolm. I think the plan was always out there, i.e. the year was right, we know now star born happen every so many years, in her usual rebellious way, Margaret chose to throw a monkey wrench into everyone's plans by conceiving a star born with a truly good man. This is what sets Harry apart from the rest of the star born, it is significant and no accident that it is repeated constantly though out the series that Harry inherited his father's good heart among other things. So there most likely was a plan out there for the conception of a star born, but when Margaret conceived Harry with Malcolm, it backfired. However I think a huge clue as to why ultimately the White Council elected to throw Harry out, is they know what Harry was meant to be, as Martha Liberty said, but they, with the exception of Eb never knew Malcolm, so they have no clue who Harry really is.
As to whether or not Thomas was planned, if we go by the information in Peace Talks he was born in the wrong year to be a star born unless there is a lot of wiggle room say plus or minus a decade. I still think Margaret knew that having sex with Lord Raith, most likely unprotected sex meant she could or would become pregnant by him, which happened. However I still think she found a way for her talent not to be passed onto any child she conceived with Lord Raith. And yes, Thomas could still have some talent, I seem to remember either Harry saying it or it could be a WOJ that everyone, even vanilla humans are born with some magical talent..
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Lara understands that, and loves what she is, accepts what she is.. Thomas hadn't fully until the Skinwalker got a hold of him.
Thomas changed and seemingly made a choice, interesting scene at the zoo at the end of Turncoat. Harry appalled because Thomas told him he enjoyed what he was doing after a while. Actually Lara was delighted with that outcome and didn't want Harry messing with Thomas on that score..
We never got to see that struggle for the heart and mind of Thomas between Lara and Harry. Or Harry having to come to grips that his brother was now no different from other vampires now. I was disappointed that we didn't.
I don't think the Skinwalker did "convert" Thomas; not really.
It tortured Thomas until he gave up hope in his gentler and more-loving aspirations.
But even then, he wasn't the merciless predator it had tried to create: he was angry & hurt that Harry still wanted that from him & for him, expected it of him. He wouldn't have been hurting/angry if some part of him didn't still see that as better! The Skinwalker had convinced him that he was a broken thing, unworthy of having nice emotions & nice relationships.
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... Or his talent was never allowed to show itself and develop ...
No, the Whamps' spellcasting &c is only Paranet-caliber magic, sub-WhiteCouncil stuff. They can use it in conjunction with their Hunger to pull off some pretty potent tricks (presumably in the realm of mind-magic).
Now -- in addition to that -- his father may have "discouraged" Thomas from exploring his magic. It's a reasonable theory, for sure!
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No, the Whamps' spellcasting &c is only Paranet-caliber magic, sub-WhiteCouncil stuff. They can use it in conjunction with their Hunger to pull off some pretty potent tricks (presumably in the realm of mind-magic).
Now -- in addition to that -- his father may have "discouraged" Thomas from exploring his magic. It's a reasonable theory, for sure!
Yes, but the point remains, during the year he lived with Harry, Thomas made no effort to learn any magic.. Nor on page anyway discuss with Harry the possibility that he may have talent. Since whether a kid has talent or not just seems to pop up, i .e. Harry discovered at age 11 that he could out jump etc beyond what would or should be possible all the kids he came in contact with.
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I don't think the Skinwalker did "convert" Thomas; not really.
It tortured Thomas until he gave up hope in his gentler and more-loving aspirations.
But even then, he wasn't the merciless predator it had tried to create: he was angry & hurt that Harry still wanted that from him & for him, expected it of him. He wouldn't have been hurting/angry if some part of him didn't still see that as better! The Skinwalker had convinced him that he was a broken thing, unworthy of having nice emotions & nice relationships.
Agreed. The Skinwalker just tortured him to near death and allowed him to feed himself back to health. He wasn't actively trying to talk him into something he was just training him. I liken it to taking a recovering alcoholic, trapping him without water, waiting until her was dehydrated, and giving him only alcohol to drink. The alcoholic will walk out thinking that alcohol is what has freed him from his prison and i necessary for his ongoing life.
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Agreed. The Skinwalker just tortured him to near death and allowed him to feed himself back to health. He wasn't actively trying to talk him into something he was just training him. I liken it to taking a recovering alcoholic, trapping him without water, waiting until her was dehydrated, and giving him only alcohol to drink. The alcoholic will walk out thinking that alcohol is what has freed him from his prison and i necessary for his ongoing life.
First of all if you gave an alcoholic only alcohol to drink, he would die of thirst. Second what the Skin Walker did to Thomas goes deeper than feeding upon those girls to survive.. Thomas confesses to Harry that he began to enjoy it. You don't just undo something like that, that's what is missing in my opinion, the struggle and Harry coming to terms or not with it.
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... Thomas confesses to Harry that he began to enjoy it. ...
Satiating a hunger always feels good; that's a fundamental feedback loop of survival.
We mostly don't notice our breathing. But if you hold your breath until it's uncomfortable, that first breath feels amazing. The nice cool drink when hot & thirsty. The meal after building an appetite.
Of course Thomas enjoyed it!
Furthermore, the Naagloshi made sure that "enjoying it" was all he could do, that Thomas-the-man was weak and desperate and in pain, unable to muster the focus & willpower needed to stave off the Hunger; unable to feel remorse... until after the fact. Over and over: torment, relief, remorse, torment (note that's remarkably-similar to how Mab broke Lloyd Slate).
That's Thomas' reality, as a predator. It feels good. And he needs to be able to handle that.
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That's Thomas' reality, as a predator. It feels good. And he needs to be able to handle that.
That's the point though, remember the mirror image in the soul gaze? Sorry my cat is helping me type..
She is now out chasing butterflies. Anyway, in the soul gaze we saw the struggle between the human Thomas and the Hunger.
With the Skin Walker's help, the Hunger has won. No, it isn't like our breathing..
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I hope your cat is doing well :)
I think the Hunger won but it could be reverted. But he needs the chance to try, and things are more than complicated now.
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I hope your cat is doing well :)
I think the Hunger won but it could be reverted. But he needs the chance to try, and things are more than complicated now.
Oh Mindy Mouser is doing very well! I have a touch screen and she likes to get between it and the key board purring madly fro attention, then because she touches the screen it goes crazy.
Yes, things are a lot more complicated for Thomas now.. Hopefully it will be a happy ending for Justine, Thomas, and baby..If there really is one.
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:)
I really hope there is a baby and he or she is safe.
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... I think the Hunger won but it could be reverted...
Say rather, the Hunger is in the leadmight now.
It hasn't "won."
Thomas still sees Harry as a trusted ally, still loves Harry (and Justine).
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Yes, I like that.
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Thomas still sees Harry as a trusted ally, still loves Harry (and Justine).
The same in many ways could be said for Lara, however she remains a dangerous vampire with the values that go with it.
More clearly Thomas is now like having a pet tiger in your house. No, I am not saying that Thomas is in any way a pet. What I am saying is that pet tiger might trust that you will feed him and care for him, he might even show affection for you.. However that tiger is still a tiger and has reverted back to what nature intended, and you can't trust that he won't turn and eat you some day. I believe that is what Eb is trying to tell Harry.
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The same in many ways could be said for Lara, however she remains a dangerous vampire with the values that go with it.
More clearly Thomas is now like having a pet tiger in your house. No, I am not saying that Thomas is in any way a pet. What I am saying is that pet tiger might trust that you will feed him and care for him, he might even show affection for you.. However that tiger is still a tiger and has reverted back to what nature intended, and you can't trust that he won't turn and eat you some day. I believe that is what Eb is trying to tell Harry.
I would contend that Lara sees Harry as a trusted enemy not ally. Someone you know can turn on you, but you also can trust them to act a certain way. In Harry's case, he is a know white knight that has a strong moral compass. Lara knows what strings she can pull to get a certain response out of Harry. It will be interesting to see how this might change in Twelve Months.
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I would contend that Lara sees Harry as a trusted enemy not ally. Someone you know can turn on you, but you also can trust them to act a certain way. In Harry's case, he is a know white knight that has a strong moral compass. Lara knows what strings she can pull to get a certain response out of Harry. It will be interesting to see how this might change in Twelve Months.
It isn't about Lara or Thomas trusting Harry, they can.. It's about Harry trusting them. It isn't a matter of morality either, back to the pet tiger analogy, as much as you love it and believe you can trust it, if it is hungry enough, it's natural instinct wins, and it could eat you. Vampires do what vampires do, that is what Eb is telling Harry. Now whether this is from Eb's own personal trauma, as in one killing his wife, or from the general experience and knowledge of his 200 plus years we haven't been told yet.