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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: EBRIEN on May 10, 2025, 08:02:01 PM
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Obviously, I've been rereading. ;D
Near the end of Turncoat, Dresden and McCoy are talking about the fact that Peabody wasn't by himself on the island. Who was the 2nd person? Did we find out and I missed it along the way? Do we think this was Cowl joining him in Chicago? Some other Black Council wizard/entity?
Hope all are well. Cheers!
Brien
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I have always assumed it was Black Council. Cowl or Kumori are the most likely suspects because they are the ones we have met. There are most likely other Black Council members, but I think at this point it will be someone we know in the shadows not someone we haven't seen yet.
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... Near the end of Turncoat, Dresden and McCoy are talking about the fact that Peabody wasn't by himself on the island. Who was the 2nd person? Did we find out and I missed it along the way? Do we think this was Cowl joining him in Chicago? Some other Black Council wizard/entity? ...
The "most sensible" answer, IMO -- and almost certainly, the wrong one -- is one of the Wardens, as a bodyguard. It'd make excellent tactico-strategic sense to bring one along; and he has ample mental controls in place to do so (he had Luccio commit murder against a senior council member!), so bringing along a "fine thrall" combat-wizard looks like a very good tactical move.
But, of course, that's just a narrative dead end; there's fundamentally no mystery in that, no "payoff" in dropping the hint, little to no interesting "reveal" later as to who it was.
How about it being Cristos, or some other White Council member (maybe one who's also Black Council)?
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The "most sensible" answer, IMO -- and almost certainly, the wrong one -- is one of the Wardens, as a bodyguard. It'd make excellent tactico-strategic sense to bring one along; and he has ample mental controls in place to do so (he had Luccio commit murder against a senior council member!), so bringing along a "fine thrall" combat-wizard looks like a very good tactical move.
But, of course, that's just a narrative dead end; there's fundamentally no mystery in that, no "payoff" in dropping the hint, little to no interesting "reveal" later as to who it was.
How about it being Cristos, or some other White Council member (maybe one who's also Black Council)?
Great answer. I agree that bringing "muscle" like a warden would make sense, but narratively unsatisfying. I assumed it was either a peer or a subordinate, but I like the idea of a superior better. Someone who is there to keep an eye on the whole situation, but also Peabody and use him as the fall guy if necessary. Cristos definitely fits that bill. We know who was on the island from the senior council. You can count Rasheed out. I like the Langerty being secretly on the Grey Council WAG so that leaves Cristos (technically not on the Senior Council at this time) and Martha Liberty.
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... so that leaves Cristos (technically not on the Senior Council at this time) and Martha Liberty.
I think we have a large number of named/identified (but minimally-seen) characters who potentially might be that "unindicted co-conspirator" on the WC... Klaus the Toymaker, the whole list (Montjoy, Lucciozi, Gomez, etc) recited before Ebenezer got named to the Senior Council, and maybe some others I'm not recalling.
Offhand, I don't see any good reason to suppose it's any one of them over another.
Cristos -- specifically -- strikes me as particularly narratively-useful in his very vagueness: "is he evil... or just stupid?" but also that just-trying-to-get-by everyman. Despite being a skillful wizard, he's busy with politicking and reputational advancement, trying to "business-as-usual" the problems away.
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At this point it could be any number of wizards on the Council or even someone as shocking as Carlos. My point it isn't about ignorance or evil, everyone who had dealings with Peabody, and that's just about everyone, had contact with his ink.
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At this point it could be any number of wizards on the Council or even someone as shocking as Carlos. My point it isn't about ignorance or evil, everyone who had dealings with Peabody, and that's just about everyone, had contact with his ink.
It comes back to why were there two (presumably wizards) people present? If it is just added muscle than it could be someone Peabody controlled with his ink. For disposable muscle it would have to be a young wizard. Peabody couldn't bring someone like Cristos there against his will. If the second person is on the Executive Council then they would have to be there of their own free will and thus on the Black Council and either a superior to Peabody or a peer to Peabody.
I think we have a large number of named/identified (but minimally-seen) characters who potentially might be that "unindicted co-conspirator" on the WC... Klaus the Toymaker, the whole list (Montjoy, Lucciozi, Gomez, etc) recited before Ebenezer got named to the Senior Council, and maybe some others I'm not recalling.
Offhand, I don't see any good reason to suppose it's any one of them over another.
My only issue that I have with Klaus or any of the other names you have mentioned is that they are at this point just names. It wouldn't be narratively satisfying to have a name mentioned once in the whole series be involved with big events against Harry. Any of those names could be fillers on the Black Council. However, to have someone be filling a role, like Peabody, actively working against the White Council, they should have more screen time. Cristos has been dangled in the books as a possible Black Council member, and it would make sense with some of his actions, but what if he is just stupid or ignorant and all of his actions are just to benefit himself and the whole time its Martha Liberty. Now we have to go back and look at every interaction Harry has with her in the series to see examine her motives and dialogue for clues. We don't get that same effect with a one off name like Klaus. There is still time for another wizard to have more development in the upcoming books, but we are going to be extra suspicious of any new introduced wizards or dramatically increased book time for anyone.
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It comes back to why were there two (presumably wizards) people present? If it is just added muscle than it could be someone Peabody controlled with his ink. For disposable muscle it would have to be a young wizard. Peabody couldn't bring someone like Cristos there against his will. If the second person is on the Executive Council then they would have to be there of their own free will and thus on the Black Council and either a superior to Peabody or a peer to Peabody.
Luccio was the captain of the Wardens at that time. Granted the body switch screwed her up somewhat, hormones were firing her sex drive because she was in a younger body, and she no longer could make the special Warden swords, but basically to be captain of the Wardens of the White Council her wizard mojo is pretty strong.. It appeared to remain strong, otherwise it would have been noticed, yet Peabody and his ink managed to screw her up controlling her to the point of committing murder. Or did Peabody screw everyone else up so badly with his ink that they just didn't notice that their Warden captain wasn't quite right anymore? What I am trying to say is apparently they didn't notice, so it isn't inconceivable that Peabody could in fact, manipulate someone like Christos with his ink.. Not against Christos's will, because he had no clue he was being manipulated by the ink, nobody did. Remember when Rashid visited Harry in the infirmary afterwards? Rashid looked down at his own hands wondering how much he had been influenced by Peabody's ink. Eb's reaction as well, said the same thing.. Now, we can agree that Peabody wasn't the brains behind the plot, he was a mere cat's paw. Somewhere along the line he was corrupted and as an insider to the White Council did a huge amount of damage that would have gone on a lot longer if Harry had attended more Council meetings and signed paperwork. So who was behind it? Nemesis? And why would the second person or creature on the island with Peabody have to be from the White Council? Peabody used a Way to get to the island, a pretty nasty one at that. We know that Cat Sith got infested with Nemesis, we also know that Lea and Maeve got infested by Nemesis, so not impossible that maybe it was someone else infested from one of the Courts that was with Peabody on the island. Oh and I can think of another who we know from White Night can go in and out from the Nevernever, Cowl... We still don't know his agenda, and yeah he'd be strong enough to manipulate Peabody.
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Luccio was the captain of the Wardens at that time. Granted the body switch screwed her up somewhat, hormones were firing her sex drive because she was in a younger body, and she no longer could make the special Warden swords, but basically to be captain of the Wardens of the White Council her wizard mojo is pretty strong.. It appeared to remain strong, otherwise it would have been noticed, yet Peabody and his ink managed to screw her up controlling her to the point of committing murder. Or did Peabody screw everyone else up so badly with his ink that they just didn't notice that their Warden captain wasn't quite right anymore? What I am trying to say is apparently they didn't notice, so it isn't inconceivable that Peabody could in fact, manipulate someone like Christos with his ink.. Not against Christos's will, because he had no clue he was being manipulated by the ink, nobody did. Remember when Rashid visited Harry in the infirmary afterwards? Rashid looked down at his own hands wondering how much he had been influenced by Peabody's ink. Eb's reaction as well, said the same thing.. Now, we can agree that Peabody wasn't the brains behind the plot, he was a mere cat's paw. Somewhere along the line he was corrupted and as an insider to the White Council did a huge amount of damage that would have gone on a lot longer if Harry had attended more Council meetings and signed paperwork. So who was behind it? Nemesis? And why would the second person or creature on the island with Peabody have to be from the White Council? Peabody used a Way to get to the island, a pretty nasty one at that. We know that Cat Sith got infested with Nemesis, we also know that Lea and Maeve got infested by Nemesis, so not impossible that maybe it was someone else infested from one of the Courts that was with Peabody on the island. Oh and I can think of another who we know from White Night can go in and out from the Nevernever, Cowl... We still don't know his agenda, and yeah he'd be strong enough to manipulate Peabody.
Peabody and his ink only managed to screw up Luccio because of the body switch. In Turncoat it states that every wizard under the age of 50 was more susceptible to Peabody's manipulation and had the sleep command programmed in. Several of the younger wardens also had the lone gunman reprogramming as well. He was only able to impact the Senior Council in subtle ways. Ebenezer said that the ink only let Peabody nudge them, but that they were too "crusty" to bend. Yes, Peabody could manipulate the older wizards with his ink, but the only people he could have forced to the island was a younger wizard. Otherwise, it would have had to have been a co-conspirator.
You make a valid point about it not having to be a wizard though. There are plenty of other characters we've been introduced to that could have joined Peabody on the island. I wonder if Harry might visit the island in the time travel book to see who it was.
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Peabody and his ink only managed to screw up Luccio because of the body switch.
Not because of the body switch, but because of the ink.
Peabody and his ink only managed to screw up Luccio because of the body switch. In Turncoat it states that every wizard under the age of 50 was more susceptible to Peabody's manipulation and had the sleep command programmed in. Several of the younger wardens also had the lone gunman reprogramming as well. He was only able to impact the Senior Council in subtle ways. Ebenezer said that the ink only let Peabody nudge them, but that they were too "crusty" to bend. Yes, Peabody could manipulate the older wizards with his ink, but the only people he could have forced to the island was a younger wizard. Otherwise, it would have had to have been a co-conspirator.
We don't know that, nor if a Senior Member was on the island with Peabody influenced by the ink could you really call him or her a co-conspirator.. The key word here is, under the influence, not fully responsible.. Maybe not zombie or robotic mind control, but enough influence to severely affect judgement.. Also like all of us, wizards, even senior wizards have different levels of tolerance to chemical influences.
Official testimony from Eb at the trial, page 386 bolding and italics mine...
"Working on the evidence Dresden found." Ebenezar said, "Warden Ramiez and I searched Peabody's chambers thoroughly not twenty minutes ago. A test of inks he used to attain the signatures of the Senior Council for various authorizations revealed the presence of a number of chemical and alchemical substances that are known to have been used to assist psychic manipulation of their subjects. It is my belief that Peabody has been drugging the ink for the purpose of attempting greater mental influence over the decisions of the members of the Senior Council, and that it is entirely possible that he has compromised the free will of younger members of the Council outright."
Listens-to-Wind's mouth opened in sudden surprise and understanding. He looked at his ink-stained fingertips, and then up at Peabody.
Now in the end the Senior Council may not admit to the extent that they were compromised, but from Listens-to-Wind's honest reaction, the effect on the Senior Council was potentially quite serious.. Remember he would know as both a medical doctor and a scientist the effect of those drugs on the mind, even the minds of Senior Council members.
No, the whole White Council, if they came in contact with the ink, was affected to some degree. ages 397- 398 Turn Coat, what Harry thinks the effects on the whole, of Peabody's ink, from Lara's independent investigations;
He might have wound up with his brains spattered all over a desolate little hell hole in the Nevernever, but Peabody had influenced one hell of a lot of damage before he was through. A new age of White Council paranoia had begun.
It was all tougher for the members of the Senior Council, in my opinion, all of whom had almost certainly been influenced in subtle ways. They had to go back over their decisions for the past several years, and wonder if they had been pushed into making a choice, if it had been their own action, or if the ambiguity of any given decision had been natural to the environment. The touch had been so light that it hadn't left any lasting tracks. For anyone with half a conscience, it would be a living nightmare, especially given the fact that they had been leading the Council in time of war.
I tried to imagine second-guessing myself on everything I'd done for the past eight years. I wouldn't be one of those guys for all the world.
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Not because of the body switch, but because of the ink.
The body switch made Luccio more susceptible to the ink than a wizard of her age should be. A few quotes from the book (all are from the paperback version and all italics are my emohasis). From pages 128 to 129:
"Someone could have gotten into his head," I said.
"At his age?" Ebenezar said, "Ain't likely."
I frowned. "What do you mean?"
"As a mind grows older, it gets established," he said, "more set in its ways. Like a willow tree. Supple when it's young, but gets more brittle as it ages. Once you've been around a century or so, it generally ain't possible to bend a mind without breaking it."
"Generally?"
"You can't push it that far," Ebeneezer said. "Push a loyal man into betraying everything he believes in? You'd drive him insane before you forced him into that."
From that same section you quoted from pages 518 to 519 of Turn Coat:
It was tougher for the members of the Senior Council, in my opinion, all of whom had almost certainly been influenced in subtle ways. They had to go back over their decisions for the past several years, and wonder if they had been pushed into making a choice, if it had been their own action, or if the ambiguity of any given decision had been natural to the environment. The touch had been so light that it hadn't left any lasting tracks.
Another quote from pages 526 to 527:
"Or maybe Peabody go to him (The Merlin) harder than we all think," I said.
"Improbable," Ebenezar said, "The drugs he slipped the Senior Council let him nudge them...us. But we're all too crusty to bend more than that."
The older the subject the less that Peabody could do. Older wizards become more set mentally and are harder to influence. Luccio is older than Morgan and Eb said in the first quote that Morgan could not have been forced to kill against his will. Luccio was more susceptible because of the body switch and the resulting younger mind. Peabody was able to have a greater influence on her with his ink. I doubt that Peabody could force an older wizard, including the Senior Council, to accompany him to the island. That goes far beyond the nudging Eb mentioned. If a Senior Council member was present on the island, I believe they had to be there of there own will as a co-conspirator, not because they were forced to by Peabody. Both Eb and Harry believe that it was Cristos on the island with Peabody, but we know that they could be wrong.
Now in the end the Senior Council may not admit to the extent that they were compromised, but from Listens-to-Wind's honest reaction, the effect on the Senior Council was potentially quite serious.. Remember he would know as both a medical doctor and a scientist the effect of those drugs on the mind, even the minds of Senior Council members.
When Listens-to Winds had that reaction, he had just found out during the trial that Peabody had been influencing the wizards through his ink. That was an honest reaction of shock at the news. No investigation had been made into what exactly the ink was and what it could do yet. At that point, his medical and scientific knowledge was useless because he just found out about it and had not examined the ink for himself. It wasn't until after Peabody had been killed, the mistfiend contained, and the injured treated that the Merlin and Injun Joe examined the ink and the influenced wizards fully to see what the effect was. Harry detailed this on page 518 while he was in the infirmary recovering before he talked to the Gatekeeper (the paragraph preceding the second book quote above). For all Listens to Winds knew at the time of the reveal, the effect on the Senior Council could have been quite serious. However, it was after his and Merlin's investigation that Harry made the influence in subtle ways reference to the Senior Council and Eb shared the third quote about the Senior Council only being nudged not bent.
No, the whole White Council, if they came in contact with the ink, was affected to some degree.
I agree, if they came into contact with the ink they were impacted to some degree. That degree depends on how much contact they had with the ink (ie how often they were at headquarters and signing paper work) and how susceptible they were to the inks influence (age and mental defenses).
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I agree, if they came into contact with the ink they were impacted to some degree. That degree depends on how much contact they had with the ink (ie how often they were at headquarters and signing paper work) and how susceptible they were to the inks influence (age and mental defenses).
Senior Council, they are intimately involved with governing the White Council, so yeah, lots of contact with Peabody's ink.. And don't discount nudges, especially when the person who is being affected has no clue that he or she is being nudged in one direction or another... Timing in attacks during wartime is one example, a couple of hours one way or the other could be the difference between success and disaster... Or kind of like driving a car after drinking, you don't have to be drunk to a danger on the road. You are not drunk, not even remotely, but your reaction time is slowed, normally wouldn't affect your driving, but if something happens and you are even a split second too slow to react...
When Listens-to Winds had that reaction, he had just found out during the trial that Peabody had been influencing the wizards through his ink. That was an honest reaction of shock at the news. No investigation had been made into what exactly the ink was and what it could do yet. At that point, his medical and scientific knowledge was useless because he just found out about it and had not examined the ink for himself. It wasn't until after Peabody had been killed, the mistfiend contained, and the injured treated that the Merlin and Injun Joe examined the ink and the influenced wizards fully to see what the effect was. Harry detailed this on page 518 while he was in the infirmary recovering before he talked to the Gatekeeper (the paragraph preceding the second book quote above). For all Listens to Winds knew at the time of the reveal, the effect on the Senior Council could have been quite serious. However, it was after his and Merlin's investigation that Harry made the influence in subtle ways reference to the Senior Council and Eb shared the third quote about the Senior Council only being nudged not bent.
or...
Official testimony from Eb at the trial, page 386 bolding and italics mine...
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"Working on the evidence Dresden found." Ebenezar said, "Warden Ramiez and I searched Peabody's chambers thoroughly not twenty minutes ago. A test of inks he used to attain the signatures of the Senior Council for various authorizations revealed the presence of a number of chemical and alchemical substances that are known to have been used to assist psychic manipulation of their subjects. It is my belief that Peabody has been drugging the ink for the purpose of attempting greater mental influence over the decisions of the members of the Senior Council, and that it is entirely possible that he has compromised the free will of younger members of the Council outright."
Listens-to-Wind's mouth opened in sudden surprise and understanding. He looked at his ink-stained fingertips, and then up at Peabody.
Was it useless? He had just listened to Eb's testimony as to what was in the ink.. Listen's-to-Wind has enough knowledge of chemistry to understand perfectly well what Eb was saying they found.. He didn't need to do his own analysis.
Yes, while the body change made Luccio more susceptible, it still was the ink, wasn't it? That's my point.
Another point, and the real damage of Peabody's subtle nudges, " A new age of White Council paranoia had begun. "
What happened after the battle for Chicago is a perfect example of that.
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Another point, and the real damage of Peabody's subtle nudges, " A new age of White Council paranoia had begun. "
What happened after the battle for Chicago is a perfect example of that.
This alone almost outstrips anything Peabody was actually able to accomplish with the ink. The younger wardens could be healed. The older wizards would question/second guess themselves, but the damage to their minds was not extensive. The paranoia caused by an infiltrator in the council won't go away anytime soon. The White Council is jumping at shadows afraid someone else is working against them. IT would be easy to whip that paranoia up and point it at some one specific. As you said, we definitely see the continuation of that with what happens to Harry after Chicago.
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Senior Council, they are intimately involved with governing the White Council, so yeah, lots of contact with Peabody's ink.. And don't discount nudges, especially when the person who is being affected has no clue that he or she is being nudged in one direction or another... Timing in attacks during wartime is one example, a couple of hours one way or the other could be the difference between success and disaster... Or kind of like driving a car after drinking, you don't have to be drunk to a danger on the road. You are not drunk, not even remotely, but your reaction time is slowed, normally wouldn't affect your driving, but if something happens and you are even a split second too slow to react...
or...
Was it useless? He had just listened to Eb's testimony as to what was in the ink.. Listen's-to-Wind has enough knowledge of chemistry to understand perfectly well what Eb was saying they found.. He didn't need to do his own analysis.
Yes, while the body change made Luccio more susceptible, it still was the ink, wasn't it? That's my point.
Another point, and the real damage of Peabody's subtle nudges, " A new age of White Council paranoia had begun. "
What happened after the battle for Chicago is a perfect example of that.
Peabody couldn't make a SC member do what he wants only nudge them in a certain way. And his effects on the SC members is mych worse than the total mind control on the younger members in my view.
Imagine for a minute that you are a hot head member of the SC (Eb) for eg. You make a decision to support a strike in your anger and afterwards you find out that you could have been nudged into making that decision and ppl died as a result. You feel like that was something you would have supported its not out of character but you cant be sure. Or you are cautious ( the Merlin ) you delay a strike and the results are that many people die. Was it your natural cautiousness or Peabody ? you will never know. How will cause correct?
The young wizards were mind controlled fullstop. With counseling they may recover. They know it was not them it was someone else violating them. But the SC has a whole will always wonder if this or that decision was their own
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Peabody couldn't make a SC member do what he wants only nudge them in a certain way. And his effects on the SC members is mych worse than the total mind control on the younger members in my view.
Imagine for a minute that you are a hot head member of the SC (Eb) for eg. You make a decision to support a strike in your anger and afterwards you find out that you could have been nudged into making that decision and ppl died as a result. You feel like that was something you would have supported its not out of character but you cant be sure. Or you are cautious ( the Merlin ) you delay a strike and the results are that many people die. Was it your natural cautiousness or Peabody ? you will never know. How will cause correct?
The young wizards were mind controlled fullstop. With counseling they may recover. They know it was not them it was someone else violating them. But the SC has a whole will always wonder if this or that decision was their own
That's the point, Peabody didn't have to do mind control over the senior members, simply nudging a Senior Council member can have grave consequences, especially in time of war as Harry pointed out. A leader second guessing him or herself becomes a less effective leader. Others second guessing their leader because decisions seem a bit off becomes a less effective team, vulnerable to infiltration or attack.
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Luccio was the captain of the Wardens at that time. Granted the body switch screwed her up somewhat, hormones were firing her sex drive because she was in a younger body, and she no longer could make the special Warden swords, but basically to be captain of the Wardens of the White Council her wizard mojo is pretty strong.. It appeared to remain strong, otherwise it would have been noticed, yet Peabody and his ink managed to screw her up controlling her to the point of committing murder. Or did Peabody screw everyone else up so badly with his ink that they just didn't notice that their Warden captain wasn't quite right anymore? What I am trying to say is apparently they didn't notice,
You know, that's an aspect of that whole affair that I had never really considered before. I agree that Peabody probably couldn't produce major changes in older Wizards' behavior, but Staci's affair with Harry does present odd questions.
Staci herself commented afterward that as commander of the Wardens, it was not really wise for her to be carrying on an affair with a subordinate, surging hormones or not. Did they keep the whole thing secret? I never saw much sign of that.
Yet did nobody observe that this might be a questionable breach of discipline? Granted the Council might not have any formal, official rules about such things, but it's hard not to see somebody thinking this was at least unwise or was a bad optic. Esp. with Harry's tendency to make up his own rules. I could easily see some other Warden muttering that "Dresden gets away with it because he's ****ing the Captain." Bad for overall morale, even if the suspicion is false.
Flipside, those of the high echelons who distrust Harry would likely be freaked out by his being the Captain's bedmate, too. "Has Dresden suborned the commander of our police force?!"
Mira's right about this aspect of things, that whole situation looks funny.
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You know, that's an aspect of that whole affair that I had never really considered before. I agree that Peabody probably couldn't produce major changes in older Wizards' behavior, but Staci's affair with Harry does present odd questions.
Staci herself commented afterward that as commander of the Wardens, it was not really wise for her to be carrying on an affair with a subordinate, surging hormones or not. Did they keep the whole thing secret? I never saw much sign of that.
Yet did nobody observe that this might be a questionable breach of discipline? Granted the Council might not have any formal, official rules about such things, but it's hard not to see somebody thinking this was at least unwise or was a bad optic. Esp. with Harry's tendency to make up his own rules. I could easily see some other Warden muttering that "Dresden gets away with it because he's ****ing the Captain." Bad for overall morale, even if the suspicion is false.
Flipside, those of the high echelons who distrust Harry would likely be freaked out by his being the Captain's bedmate, too. "Has Dresden suborned the commander of our police force?!"
Mira's right about this aspect of things, that whole situation looks funny.
Its actually pointed out that Staci was happy, sure its weird but she's happy. The older members were probably thought its weird but she was happy. Your grumpy friend is finally happy sure their drinking a little bit more but its fine, right.
The WC is old fashioned they don't object to master student relationships what makes you thing they would object to a relationship between two consenting adults. Im not sure if there is any formal code for relationships between members, Wardens and SC. And given their lifespans and small numbers trying to enforce a no relationship clause is asking for a headache
Those anti Dresden members obviously complained about Dresden manipulating poor Staci to get more power but did they say it out loud.
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Just a thought. There is a general assumption being made that if Peabody brought a younger member of the Council with him to Demonreach, that person was just muscle; and more important, someone Peabody mind raped into being his thrall.
What if Peabody brought a younger member of the Council, but not a thrall? Someone who made a conscious choice to join The Black Council; or whatever they call their alliance, because they had their own grievance against the White Council? You don't have to be old and disillusioned to betray your principles and the people who trust you. There is also the possibility this person was a plant from the beginning. Like the Matt Damon character in the Scorcese movie, The Departed.
We don't know the backstory of any of the younger Wardens Harry befriended. Of course, only two of them are still alive. (I'm assuming Chandler is still alive, somewhere.)
It's just something to consider and keep in mind.
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[quoteThose anti Dresden members obviously complained about Dresden manipulating poor Staci to get more power but did they say it out loud.
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I would think that they would, there is that faction of the Senior Council that would like nothing more than to see Harry, minus his head..
The WC is old fashioned they don't object to master student relationships what makes you thing they would object to a relationship between two consenting adults. Im not sure if there is any formal code for relationships between members, Wardens and SC. And given their lifespans and small numbers trying to enforce a no relationship clause is asking for a headache
Yeah.....But this is a bit different, this is the police captain banging one of her academy cadets.. A cadet with a questionable past in the middle of a murder investigation, that should pop up a few red flags here and there.. Which actually gets to the heart of what I am talking about, the effect of the Peabody's ink's nudges on the senior members of the Council. Did those nudges blind them to those red flags? Which actually fits nicely with why Peabody had no problem pushing Luccio towards Harry, which normally the Senior Council would notice and object to, this time was passed off under the influence as, as you say an affair between to consenting adults, makes the Captain happy so who cares?
Just a thought. There is a general assumption being made that if Peabody brought a younger member of the Council with him to Demonreach, that person was just muscle; and more important, someone Peabody mind raped into being his thrall.
What if Peabody brought a younger member of the Council, but not a thrall? Someone who made a conscious choice to join The Black Council; or whatever they call their alliance, because they had their own grievance against the White Council? You don't have to be old and disillusioned to betray your principles and the people who trust you. There is also the possibility this person was a plant from the beginning. Like the Matt Damon character in the Scorcese movie, The Departed.
We don't know the backstory of any of the younger Wardens Harry befriended. Of course, only two of them are still alive. (I'm assuming Chandler is still alive, somewhere.)
It's just something to consider and keep in mind.
And a good idea, and very possible.. However perhaps too simplistic on the face, but on the other hand the simplest explanation is usually the correct one. Or if you buy that Peabody was merely someone else's cat's paw, that person or creature was on the island with him.
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Yeah.....But this is a bit different, this is the police captain banging one of her academy cadets.. A cadet with a questionable past in the middle of a murder investigation, that should pop up a few red flags here and there.. Which actually gets to the heart of what I am talking about, the effect of the Peabody's ink's nudges on the senior members of the Council. Did those nudges blind them to those red flags? Which actually fits nicely with why Peabody had no problem pushing Luccio towards Harry, which normally the Senior Council would notice and object to, this time was passed off under the influence as, as you say an affair between to consenting adults, makes the Captain happy so who cares?
And a good idea, and very possible.. However perhaps too simplistic on the face, but on the other hand the simplest explanation is usually the correct one. Or if you buy that Peabody was merely someone else's cat's paw, that person or creature was on the island with him.
During turncoat Harry was not a cadet more a lieutenant banging the police captain. He had a whole region and Wardens who report to him. Its the loose cannon on the force banging the chief, the very strict chief . Its Riggs banging the Captain in lethal weapon,
Imagine mike lawrey from bad boys banging his captain.
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During turncoat Harry was not a cadet more a lieutenant banging the police captain. He had a whole region and Wardens who report to him. Its the loose cannon on the force banging the chief, the very strict chief . Its Riggs banging the Captain in lethal weapon,
Imagine mike lawrey from bad boys banging his captain.
Yes, he is a cadet in as much has he had none of the training that the other wardens go through. You will remember he was drafted in Dead Beat and automatically made Regional Commander for North America. And again, I agree the Regional Commander banging the Captain of the whole force smells bad, because Harry is seen as loose cannon, and he was banging his commander. So why wasn't that picked up by anyone? Could it be subtle manipulation, i.e. nudge, nudge, by Peabody ink so that those on the Senior Council, fellow commanders like Carlos, were aware of it, but because of the nudge, nudge of the Peabody ink chose to look the other way? Something they would not have done if they weren't under the influence. It's like drinking and driving, maybe not legally drunk by any breath test, i.e. the older wizards, but reflexes slowed just enough to where if something popped up they might not be able to react swift enough, so wreck! As in what Harry said about some of the decisions that were made during the war with the Red Court.
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Just a thought. There is a general assumption being made that if Peabody brought a younger member of the Council with him to Demonreach, that person was just muscle; and more important, someone Peabody mind raped into being his thrall.
What if Peabody brought a younger member of the Council, but not a thrall? Someone who made a conscious choice to join The Black Council; or whatever they call their alliance, because they had their own grievance against the White Council? You don't have to be old and disillusioned to betray your principles and the people who trust you. There is also the possibility this person was a plant from the beginning. Like the Matt Damon character in the Scorcese movie, The Departed.
We don't know the backstory of any of the younger Wardens Harry befriended. Of course, only two of them are still alive. (I'm assuming Chandler is still alive, somewhere.)
It's just something to consider and keep in mind.
Excellent point. I admit that I was thinking younger wizard as thrall not younger wizard as ally at the island. This wrinkle opens up a whole new world of possibilities. Does anyone know where Carlos is during this fight on the island?
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Excellent point. I admit that I was thinking younger wizard as thrall not younger wizard as ally at the island. This wrinkle opens up a whole new world of possibilities. Does anyone know where Carlos is during this fight on the island?
Is he even mentioned? A couple of points, Carlos is a team player for the most part unlike Harry, in other words he'd spend more time at headquarters, signing orders and exposed to Peabody ink. Carlos in spite of his position is one of the younger wizards, more vulnerable to it's effects. Did anyone bother to see if Carlos was affected by the ink? If not rehabbed is the effect of the ink long lasting, and his ill fated sexual encounter with Molly just cemented his paranoia and feelings against Harry.
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Is he even mentioned? A couple of points, Carlos is a team player for the most part unlike Harry, in other words he'd spend more time at headquarters, signing orders and exposed to Peabody ink. Carlos in spite of his position is one of the younger wizards, more vulnerable to it's effects. Did anyone bother to see if Carlos was affected by the ink? If not rehabbed is the effect of the ink long lasting, and his ill fated sexual encounter with Molly just cemented his paranoia and feelings against Harry.
Every young wizard was affected Carlos included. The WC instituted some changes to its mental defense training but it wasn't as robust as Harry would have liked hence him and Molly training on their own. He was rehabed but trauma so close to other trauma will reopen old wounds
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Every young wizard was affected Carlos included. The WC instituted some changes to its mental defense training but it wasn't as robust as Harry would have liked hence him and Molly training on their own. He was rehabed but trauma so close to other trauma will reopen old wounds
The ink was a different thing from defense against mental attack, which is mind to mind. That isn't the case with the Peabody ink, that was the effect of the ink's contact with the skin, then getting into the bloodstream and that way to the brain. The only reason Harry wasn't affected along with everyone else is avoided headquarters and signing anything from Peabody. Remember when he first arrived to investigate the murder Peabody was eager to have Harry sign some papers that he had. Harry didn't because he was too busy with his investigation so it was mere luck that he wasn't also affected.
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Every young wizard was affected Carlos included. The WC instituted some changes to its mental defense training but it wasn't as robust as Harry would have liked hence him and Molly training on their own. He was rehabed but trauma so close to other trauma will reopen old wounds
I agree that Carlos had to be impacted to some degree. He was a warden before Harry, a regional commander, and most likely present in headquarters more often than Harry (pretty easy since Harry has gone to headquarters almost never). The odds of him signing something are pretty high.
AS much as it pains me to say, Carlos is a good candidate for a traitor. We know that he is distrustful of the council. We know that he has been frustrated by corruption. It would be an easy jump from him to go from there to the council needs to be replaced by something better. Forgive my cross-reference, but in Star Wars there was plenty of people who liked/preferred the Empire because of its emphasis on law and order and structure despite the atrocities it committed. Package the Black Council ideas up in the right way and combine that with a dose of ink and Carlos might be susceptible. He would be an attractive target as a way to keep tabs on Harry or maybe even recruit him in the future.
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He would be an attractive target as a way to keep tabs on Harry or maybe even recruit him in the future.
Carlos did keep secret tabs on Harry. Remember the tracker dot he secretly put on Harry at the beginning of Peace Talks? No, Carlos was willing to screw over his friend long before that final scene between them at the end of Battle Ground.
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Carlos did keep secret tabs on Harry. Remember the tracker dot he secretly put on Harry at the beginning of Peace Talks? No, Carlos was willing to screw over his friend long before that final scene between them at the end of Battle Ground.
But that's not out of character. Harry, as Carlos pointed out, hasn't been acting like a friend, for a long time. From a Council POV, Harry looks suspect, and he seems uninterested in alleviating the suspicions. I'm not sure Carlos still believed Harry was his friend, whether or not Carlos thought of himself as Harry's.
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But that's not out of character. Harry, as Carlos pointed out, hasn't been acting like a friend, for a long time. From a Council POV, Harry looks suspect, and he seems uninterested in alleviating the suspicions. I'm not sure Carlos still believed Harry was his friend, whether or not Carlos thought of himself as Harry's.
Was it Harry or Carlos not acting as a friend? I don't think it is at all clear as to what Harry did that made Carlos go along with putting that tracking tab on him at the beginning of Peace Talks. I still think that the disastrous sex encounter with Molly is what really is at the bottom of all of this. And you know what? I think Mab could have set all of it up to isolate her Knight and Lady from the White Council. 1] Mab may or may not have known that Carlos and Molly had a thing for one another, or at least were attracted to one another. In any case, one very important bit of information she kept from Molly when she was instructing her was NO SEX with mortals, or at least mortal wizards.. Carlos not without reason, might think that this is something Molly should have been aware of and wondering why she tried to kill him during their love making... 2] Carlos may also think, and not without reason that as the Winter Knight, Harry should also have known about this danger and warned him as a friend.. "Don't bang Lady Molly, it could be hazardous to your health!" Harry didn't know, had no reason to know, after all he did bang Mab to become Knight without any ill effects physically. If Harry and Molly ever try to pin her down on the subject of why she didn't divulge this important bit of information.. Mab would reply, "you didn't ask.." However neither did Mab volunteer, which is all part of her deep three dimensional chess game.. To great success, it is possible that she was only using Molly, since her head has always been in danger of being severed from her shoulders so not a lot of ties to sever.. However Harry was both a member of the White Council and a Warden, Mab doesn't want duel loyalties from her Knight, she rather he didn't follow rules like the Laws of Magic..
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Carlos did keep secret tabs on Harry. Remember the tracker dot he secretly put on Harry at the beginning of Peace Talks? No, Carlos was willing to screw over his friend long before that final scene between them at the end of Battle Ground.
Forgot about this. Carlos has shown that he will put other things above his friendship with Harry.
But that's not out of character. Harry, as Carlos pointed out, hasn't been acting like a friend, for a long time. From a Council POV, Harry looks suspect, and he seems uninterested in alleviating the suspicions. I'm not sure Carlos still believed Harry was his friend, whether or not Carlos thought of himself as Harry's.
It is and it isn't out of character. The last we saw of Carlos before PT/BG was a brief scene in Changes where Carlos chases Harry down after he confronts the Duchess in front of the council. At that point Harry and Carlos were still presumably on good terms if not outright friends. It was a little jarring to go from that perspective with Carlos to PT where there is simmering distrust/hostility and BG where there is a definite break. That being said, since we saw Carlos, Harry (in the council's view) singlehandedly wiped out the Red Court, seemingly died, came back to like, is in service to Mab as the winter knight, helped the Denarians break into Marcone/Hades vault. In addition, he has not been fulfilling his role as a warden and regional commander and as far as we know has not talked to the council once since Changes. It is easy to see why the distrust of Harry has grown and how Carlos, in addition to having that distrust/paranoia bleed over onto him, might also be feeling slighted because Harry has not reached out to him at all during these major life events.
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It is and it isn't out of character. The last we saw of Carlos before PT/BG was a brief scene in Changes where Carlos chases Harry down after he confronts the Duchess in front of the council. At that point Harry and Carlos were still presumably on good terms if not outright friends. It was a little jarring to go from that perspective with Carlos to PT where there is simmering distrust/hostility and BG where there is a definite break. That being said, since we saw Carlos, Harry (in the council's view) singlehandedly wiped out the Red Court, seemingly died, came back to like, is in service to Mab as the winter knight, helped the Denarians break into Marcone/Hades vault. In addition, he has not been fulfilling his role as a warden and regional commander and as far as we know has not talked to the council once since Changes. It is easy to see why the distrust of Harry has grown and how Carlos, in addition to having that distrust/paranoia bleed over onto him, might also be feeling slighted because Harry has not reached out to him at all during these major life events.
This may be all true, but has Carlos reached out to Harry? Like who is the one person who might know what's up with Molly and Winter Ladies and sex and not judge Carlos or Molly for trying? Has Carlos even tried to talk to Harry about what happened to him?Any information on Winter Ladies at all? It may have saved him his macho dignity.. Or do we have any scenes at all after Cold Days where Carlos asks Harry what happened? Is he okay? Come to think of it, I don't remember Harry going to Carlos in Changes when he was so desperate for help to save little Maggie? Well not just her but Eb and himself as well.. Maybe he did, it's been a while since I read the book.. But Harry was a friend in need, if he did ask, why didn't Carlos help?
Or the truth of the matter is, they were working colleagues and casual friends, no more, no less... So when the rumors started to hit the fan and his enemies on the Council had the knives out for Harry... Carlos turned into a professional hardass taking the side of those with the knives and stabbing Harry in the back while keeping himself clean.
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I've always thought it could be the gatekeeper. As far as I understand, Harry becomes able to recognize people on the island when he sees them stand on it (and then can keep track of them). Rashid intentionally doesn't touch the island. Harry lacks the ability to recognize him, so when he shows back up with Peabody, he's effectively incognito. Also explains how quickly the messengers get to LTW for the trees. Rashid playing both sides to prepare Harry.
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I've always thought it could be the gatekeeper. As far as I understand, Harry becomes able to recognize people on the island when he sees them stand on it (and then can keep track of them). Rashid intentionally doesn't touch the island. Harry lacks the ability to recognize him, so when he shows back up with Peabody, he's effectively incognito. Also explains how quickly the messengers get to LTW for the trees. Rashid playing both sides to prepare Harry.
I don't think so, oh I agree that Rashid is helping Harry, but I don't think he is the one playing back up to Peabody or both sides. I reread the passage where Rashid is on the dock and confronts Harry before he knows that Harry has claimed the island as a sanctum. Rashid didn't know and told Harry using his "Eye" that his chances of succeeding were nil. Then Harry jumps onto the island and Rashid scans again and is shocked and surprised to learn that Harry has made the island a sanctum. Yes, Rashid was standing of the very tip of the dock, but not because he feared that Harry would sense from the island that he was helping Peabody in the future. Yes, Rashid apparently also knows an unsavory "Way" to the island, but that doesn't mean he was with Peabody. Rashid admits he knows a Way.. Also Harry openly asks Rashid to help him, Rashid confesses that he cannot step foot on the island.. "Because this place carries a grudge," he said. Somehow I don't think Rashid was lying about that. Also what would be the point of him trying to talk Harry out of the confrontation? For that matter why leave at all? He wouldn't have to be incognito to be playing both sides.. No, whoever it was with Peabody, for my money it wasn't Rashid.
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This may be all true, but has Carlos reached out to Harry? Like who is the one person who might know what's up with Molly and Winter Ladies and sex and not judge Carlos or Molly for trying? Has Carlos even tried to talk to Harry about what happened to him?Any information on Winter Ladies at all? It may have saved him his macho dignity.. Or do we have any scenes at all after Cold Days where Carlos asks Harry what happened? Is he okay? Come to think of it, I don't remember Harry going to Carlos in Changes when he was so desperate for help to save little Maggie? Well not just her but Eb and himself as well.. Maybe he did, it's been a while since I read the book.. But Harry was a friend in need, if he did ask, why didn't Carlos help?
Or the truth of the matter is, they were working colleagues and casual friends, no more, no less... So when the rumors started to hit the fan and his enemies on the Council had the knives out for Harry... Carlos turned into a professional hardass taking the side of those with the knives and stabbing Harry in the back while keeping himself clean.
In Changes, Carlos tried to ask Harry what was going on when he left the confrontation with the Duchess, but Harry was in no shape to respond and Molly told Carlos that they would be in touch. Luccio told Harry that she would be the eyes and ears in headquarters and by implication organizing help there. However, before any the plan was formulated Carlos and several other wardens (except Chandler) were arrested and thus unable to help Harry in the final battle.
After Changes, Harry was dead for awhile and then in PT in the Winter Court and thus not able to be contacted. When his PT was done he was thrown right into the events of Cold Days and things moved way to quick for any type of contact to exist between them. After Cold Days, Harry had to stay on the island due to the parasite. He stayed there until the events of Skin Game started. Mab tells Harry that she specifically prevented contact between Harry and his friends and altered his messages going out in order to pressure him into backing her play in Skin Game. Once Harry got off the island, he could have taken the time to reach out to Carlos, but once again he is in the thick of Big Bad Events and rekindling communication was low on the priority list. After Skin Game is really the first time that Carlos and Harry have a chance to reconnect. Molly and Carlos' interaction takes place sometime between Cold Days and Skin Game and the end result is Carlos severely injured and most likely out of commission for a good long while since In Peace Talks he is still showing some of the effects from his injury from Molly. Recuperating in the hospital would make reaching out to Harry hard especially given that it was Harry's apprentice who did the injuring. It was the Winter Lady who injured Carlos, do you think he is going to reach out to the Winter Knight when he is still suffering from those injuries or is he going to wait until he can face Harry on his own two feet again?
To summarize, based on my understanding of the timeline, I don't think it would have been easy for Harry and Carlos to reconnect after their last meeting in Changes. Once again, from Carlos' point of view, Harry was at the least a colleague if not some degree of friend. Harry killed the Red Court, died, went to work for Mab, and did two major events all without talking to the council or touching base with the wizards who were his colleagues. I can see how Carlos might think that Harry has gone over to the dark side or at least is no longer on the good side.
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To summarize, based on my understanding of the timeline, I don't think it would have been easy for Harry and Carlos to reconnect after their last meeting in Changes. Once again, from Carlos' point of view, Harry was at the least a colleague if not some degree of friend. Harry killed the Red Court, died, went to work for Mab, and did two major events all without talking to the council or touching base with the wizards who were his colleagues. I can see how Carlos might think that Harry has gone over to the dark side or at least is no longer on the good side.
Or was manipulated by someone, possibly even Luccio if she was under the influence of the Peabody ink to be further prejudiced against Harry.
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In Changes, Carlos tried to ask Harry what was going on when he left the confrontation with the Duchess, but Harry was in no shape to respond and Molly told Carlos that they would be in touch. Luccio told Harry that she would be the eyes and ears in headquarters and by implication organizing help there. However, before any the plan was formulated Carlos and several other wardens (except Chandler) were arrested and thus unable to help Harry in the final battle.
After Changes, Harry was dead for awhile and then in PT in the Winter Court and thus not able to be contacted. When his PT was done he was thrown right into the events of Cold Days and things moved way to quick for any type of contact to exist between them. After Cold Days, Harry had to stay on the island due to the parasite. He stayed there until the events of Skin Game started. Mab tells Harry that she specifically prevented contact between Harry and his friends and altered his messages going out in order to pressure him into backing her play in Skin Game. Once Harry got off the island, he could have taken the time to reach out to Carlos, but once again he is in the thick of Big Bad Events and rekindling communication was low on the priority list. After Skin Game is really the first time that Carlos and Harry have a chance to reconnect. Molly and Carlos' interaction takes place sometime between Cold Days and Skin Game and the end result is Carlos severely injured and most likely out of commission for a good long while since In Peace Talks he is still showing some of the effects from his injury from Molly. Recuperating in the hospital would make reaching out to Harry hard especially given that it was Harry's apprentice who did the injuring. It was the Winter Lady who injured Carlos, do you think he is going to reach out to the Winter Knight when he is still suffering from those injuries or is he going to wait until he can face Harry on his own two feet again?
To summarize, based on my understanding of the timeline, I don't think it would have been easy for Harry and Carlos to reconnect after their last meeting in Changes. Once again, from Carlos' point of view, Harry was at the least a colleague if not some degree of friend. Harry killed the Red Court, died, went to work for Mab, and did two major events all without talking to the council or touching base with the wizards who were his colleagues. I can see how Carlos might think that Harry has gone over to the dark side or at least is no longer on the good side.
Does Carlos even know why Molly attacked him. Its possible that the only explanation he was given is that Winter are masochist and its how they get off. Carlos has no idea why Molly attacked him, for all he knows Harry and Molly are gone only things that look like them and sound like them remain.
Ps for all the Carlos hate ,Harry is also to blame.
Think about it.
Harry killed the entire Red court alone. Does the Council's general population know what happened. Im sure the senior members know he had help, but what about the wardens including Carlos , the average WC member Joe and Jane Everywizard. For all they know Harry made some dark deal to kill them all. What price or deal did he make to be able to do that?
Afterwards he died as in ded. At least as far as they know.
Harry died and came back. Who was the last wizard to do that.
Wait hes back and he just killed the Winter lady and is the new winter knight. His apprentice is the new winter lady. Hold on the summer lady is also died and we have a new summer lady. Dresden was also involved.
Ps someone just robbed hell ( hades i know), and Nicodemus is now on the run, Dresden was involved. He was part of Nic's crew but he suffered no consequences. Probably framed Nic and got away with it.
Im saying Harry looks shady as hell. Did Harry even try to touch base with his allies. To tell them his back and ok. No .
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Does Carlos even know why Molly attacked him. Its possible that the only explanation he was given is that Winter are masochist and its how they get off. Carlos has no idea why Molly attacked him, for all he knows Harry and Molly are gone only things that look like them and sound like them remain.
Ps for all the Carlos hate ,Harry is also to blame.
Think about it.
Harry killed the entire Red court alone. Does the Council's general population know what happened. Im sure the senior members know he had help, but what about the wardens including Carlos , the average WC member Joe and Jane Everywizard. For all they know Harry made some dark deal to kill them all. What price or deal did he make to be able to do that?
Afterwards he died as in ded. At least as far as they know.
Harry died and came back. Who was the last wizard to do that.
Wait hes back and he just killed the Winter lady and is the new winter knight. His apprentice is the new winter lady. Hold on the summer lady is also died and we have a new summer lady. Dresden was also involved.
Ps someone just robbed hell ( hades i know), and Nicodemus is now on the run, Dresden was involved. He was part of Nic's crew but he suffered no consequences. Probably framed Nic and got away with it.
Im saying Harry looks shady as hell. Did Harry even try to touch base with his allies. To tell them his back and ok. No .
Exactly. We know Harry motives because we are in his head. However, from the outside, most of his actions since Changes can be painted in a very negative light with very little effort. Natural paranoia would make you think that Harry has made some dark deals and is going down a slippery slope. Harry has done nothing to try and change that perspective (granted you can make the argument that he has not had time/opportunity since Changes). Carlos' attitude during Peace Talks makes more sense when looking at the whole picture. He tried to reach out to Harry, put him on the security team, and bring him back into the White Council fold. He might have been trying to help Harry. What did Harry do? He kept secrets, attacked the Fae violinist in a way that even briefly shocked Molly, seemed to "associate" too closely with the White Court, and pulled a trick on Carlos. Its easy to see how Carlos is upset at the end of Battle Ground.
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Exactly. We know Harry motives because we are in his head. However, from the outside, most of his actions since Changes can be painted in a very negative light with very little effort. Natural paranoia would make you think that Harry has made some dark deals and is going down a slippery slope. Harry has done nothing to try and change that perspective (granted you can make the argument that he has not had time/opportunity since Changes). Carlos' attitude during Peace Talks makes more sense when looking at the whole picture. He tried to reach out to Harry, put him on the security team, and bring him back into the White Council fold. He might have been trying to help Harry. What did Harry do? He kept secrets, attacked the Fae violinist in a way that even briefly shocked Molly, seemed to "associate" too closely with the White Court, and pulled a trick on Carlos. Its easy to see how Carlos is upset at the end of Battle Ground.
At the end though, doesn't explain him putting that tracking device on Harry at the beginning of Peace Talks. That motivated Harry who felt betrayed to pull the trick on Carlos. We also do not really know what happened between them between Changes and Peace Talks. We know what happened to Carlos with Molly, apparently Harry knew Carlos had gotten injured, but not how it happened, Molly apparently didn't tell him either. Harry was "dead" for a while during Ghost Story.. Not much action between them in Cold Days, though you'd think Rashid vouching for Harry and doing the paperwork would put him say a lot. Then Harry was confined to the island for a year before Skin Game.. The White Court isn't exactly the enemy either, Lara did her bit in the battle to save Chicago.
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At the end though, doesn't explain him putting that tracking device on Harry at the beginning of Peace Talks. That motivated Harry who felt betrayed to pull the trick on Carlos.
I would contend it does explain it. In short, Carlos and his team are not sure where Harry's loyalty lies. They are not sure if they can trust him. They look at everything that happened from Changes onwards and listen to the Council distortion of Harry's actions and wonder if Harry is still Harry. They tracked him to see what he was doing and who he was associating with. In addition, Carlos is the head of the security team for the peace talks. It is his job to look for threats to the wizard delegation and the talks as a whole. You could argue he was doing his job checking into Harry.
That being said, Harry has a right to feel upset about their actions. The tracking was borderline shady and the spell to see if Harry had sex was borderline unethical. They could have just asked him, but could they have trusted his answer? Harry also could have cleared everything up by explaining that he was with his girlfriend, but he was too hurt and angry to cooperate.
The White Court isn't exactly the enemy either, Lara did her bit in the battle to save Chicago.
The White Court is a fellow signatory under the accords. Lara did her part as she was required to as a member of the accords. That doesn't mean she is nice or good. You can be a fellow signatory and still be an enemy. All the accords are is an agreement of a pattern of conduct and a governance of how the signatories relate to each other. Both the Red Court and Ghouls are signatories and yet have both been enemies of the White Council. Most wizards are very leery of vampires because of their ability to enthrall. An enthralled wizard could have horrible outcomes. That is partly why Carlos and company investigate Harry, to see if Lara had her psychic hooks in him.
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I would contend it does explain it. In short, Carlos and his team are not sure where Harry's loyalty lies. They are not sure if they can trust him. They look at everything that happened from Changes onwards and listen to the Council distortion of Harry's actions and wonder if Harry is still Harry. They tracked him to see what he was doing and who he was associating with. In addition, Carlos is the head of the security team for the peace talks. It is his job to look for threats to the wizard delegation and the talks as a whole. You could argue he was doing his job checking into Harry.
Yet in Turn Coat, who was it that Harry stood up for? A Warden. We know that Luccio was in extensive rehab because of the Peabody ink. Were the younger Wardens as well? Was Carlos? Yet Carlos made Harry part of the security team.. In addition secretly putting that tracking device on him, setting him up.. If Carlos really suspected Harry he did a piss poor job of protecting the participants in it didn't he? I mean Harry was able to spring Thomas, and made Carlos look like a fool at the conference before all hell broke loose. No, something else is going on here, it wasn't until the last minute that Harry realized that Justine wasn't what she appeared to be.. The Council vote again reeks of set up, along with trumped up charges yet here is Carlos playing the hard assed cop all of a sudden?
The White Court is a fellow signatory under the accords. Lara did her part as she was required to as a member of the accords. That doesn't mean she is nice or good. You can be a fellow signatory and still be an enemy. All the accords are is an agreement of a pattern of conduct and a governance of how the signatories relate to each other. Both the Red Court and Ghouls are signatories and yet have both been enemies of the White Council. Most wizards are very leery of vampires because of their ability to enthrall. An enthralled wizard could have horrible outcomes. That is partly why Carlos and company investigate Harry, to see if Lara had her psychic hooks in him.
There are still rules that those who sign the treaty must abide by, the White Court has done that.. No, Carlos jumped to conclusions on the road back from the visit from the Raith estate... Again set up, Chandler knew it and that was the look he gave Harry... Now, either Chandler will turn out to be the actual plant here influencing Harry to get his back up, or there is corruption and he was trying to warn Harry.. Based on the BS charges at the end of Battle Ground, Chandler was right.
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Thank you for all the quotes you provided here!
The body switch made Luccio more susceptible to the ink than a wizard of her age should be.
A few quotes from the book (all are from the paperback version and all italics are my emohasis)...
From pages 128 to 129:
from pages 518 to 519
from pages 526 to 527
Luccio is older than Morgan and Eb said in the first quote that Morgan could not have been forced to kill against his will. Luccio was more susceptible because of the body switch and the resulting younger mind. Peabody was able to have a greater influence on her with his ink...
And yet, none of those quotes (nor anything else I recall Ebenezer ever addressing directly) actually states that the bodyswap made Luccio more susceptible to the influence of the inks, and to Peabody's magic.
We infer it, from the 1-2-punch of Morgan telling us of Luccio's guilt and from Ebenezer says.
... I doubt that Peabody could force an older wizard, including the Senior Council, to accompany him to the island. That goes far beyond the nudging Eb mentioned. If a Senior Council member was present on the island, I believe they had to be there of there own will as a co-conspirator, not because they were forced to by Peabody. Both Eb and Harry believe that it was Cristos on the island with Peabody, but we know that they could be wrong.
So, here's some other thoughts; alternative hypotheses.
#1 - Ebenezer is just wrong. We know that the Council has largely forbidden the exploration of mind-magic, but Peabody & his ilk clearly have not. Corpsetaker had remarked on how out-of-date Harry's training was, and I think we should take it for granted that Eb gave the best mental-defense training that he could, to his grandson. But what if Black Council researchers had found ways to bend even Senior-Council level minds, without breaking them?
#2 - Luccio is Black Council. This is a dark theory, but -- what if Luccio killed LaFortier not because of Peabody's mind-control, but because she's a full-on BC agent? What if "Peabody made me do it" is just her cover-story? Consider this: of all the people in Edinburgh who could have discovered her... who's the one person who would cover for her, take the fall, but also have the skills & power to escape the WC, and the initiative to loop-in Dresden? How "convenient" for her, that that one person was the one who found her there with the bloody dagger.
#3 - An overt, brutal, full-control takeover may not be possible, or may be prohibitive. But repeated nudges, year after year? That exactly what sets habits and patterns in place, which can become self-sustaining: "You are what you do." Small incremental changes, that are let to sit and "naturalize" in place... which in turn can form a new baseline, from which you make further incremental changes, set new habits and patterns.
And it's not like the Council was a bastion of loving-kindness, trust, and openness; there were innumerable doubts and grudges and suspicions to exploit, bad inclinations that pre-existed, that didn't so much need a "nudge" to be go badly, as just gently suppressing the inhibitions that might have stopped that bad decision.
How many years was Peabody inking the Council?
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Thank you for all the quotes you provided here!And yet, none of those quotes (nor anything else I recall Ebenezer ever addressing directly) actually states that the bodyswap made Luccio more susceptible to the influence of the inks, and to Peabody's magic.
We infer it, from the 1-2-punch of Morgan telling us of Luccio's guilt and from Ebenezer says.
So, here's some other thoughts; alternative hypotheses.
#1 - Ebenezer is just wrong. We know that the Council has largely forbidden the exploration of mind-magic, but Peabody & his ilk clearly have not. Corpsetaker had remarked on how out-of-date Harry's training was, and I think we should take it for granted that Eb gave the best mental-defense training that he could, to his grandson. But what if Black Council researchers had found ways to bend even Senior-Council level minds, without breaking them?
#2 - Luccio is Black Council. This is a dark theory, but -- what if Luccio killed LaFortier not because of Peabody's mind-control, but because she's a full-on BC agent? What if "Peabody made me do it" is just her cover-story? Consider this: of all the people in Edinburgh who could have discovered her... who's the one person who would cover for her, take the fall, but also have the skills & power to escape the WC, and the initiative to loop-in Dresden? How "convenient" for her, that that one person was the one who found her there with the bloody dagger.
#3 - An overt, brutal, full-control takeover may not be possible, or may be prohibitive. But repeated nudges, year after year? That exactly what sets habits and patterns in place, which can become self-sustaining: "You are what you do." Small incremental changes, that are let to sit and "naturalize" in place... which in turn can form a new baseline, from which you make further incremental changes, set new habits and patterns.
And it's not like the Council was a bastion of loving-kindness, trust, and openness; there were innumerable doubts and grudges and suspicions to exploit, bad inclinations that pre-existed, that didn't so much need a "nudge" to be go badly, as just gently suppressing the inhibitions that might have stopped that bad decision.
How many years was Peabody inking the Council?
1. Eb was right
So far all indication are that Eb was right. Look at the kid Molly bent to help him stop doing drugs. The kid was was torn apart. He fought against the programming. The girl was ok because she had agreed to the changes her programming gave her. According to the rules of the verse you cant force someone to do something they don't want to do no matter how harmless it seems without that harming them.
This even accounts for free will. Which is important in this verse.
2. Luccio being BC would be a twist but would it be a good one? im not sure. Cause everything we know seems to eliminate her as a suspect. Cowl is BC why did she try to stop him.
3. Is possible cause a nudge is not out right mind control. For eg
I go out thinking with friends and knowing i have a low tolerance and friends encourage me to drink one more . Its the same as the nudge not outright mindcontrol
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1. Eb was right
So far all indication are that Eb was right. Look at the kid Molly bent to help him stop doing drugs. The kid was was torn apart. He fought against the programming. The girl was ok because she had agreed to the changes her programming gave her. According to the rules of the verse you cant force someone to do something they don't want to do no matter how harmless it seems without that harming them.
Actually I think you are comparing apples to oranges here, while yes, both are fruit because the involve mind manipulation, they are very different. In the case of Molly messing with the minds of her friends to get them off of drugs, she had neither experience or proper instruction she plowed into their minds because with her talent, because she could. I understand that her goal was noble but essentially she did great damage because she didn't know what the hell she was doing. It would be like I know you need an operation to remove your appendix and because I own a scalpel, I try to do it myself. Most likely because of the images Molly wanted to try and get them off of the drugs she cause them to go insane.. In the case of Peabody's ink, he never went into their minds, Luccio and others came in contact with the ink and it clouded their judgement, made them vulnerable to suggestion.. Like taking too much alcohol, only worse.
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1. Eb was right
So far all indication are that Eb was right. Look at the kid Molly bent to help him stop doing drugs. The kid was was torn apart. He fought against the programming. The girl was ok because she had agreed to the changes her programming gave her. According to the rules of the verse you cant force someone to do something they don't want to do no matter how harmless it seems without that harming them.
This even accounts for free will. Which is important in this verse. ...
No, "all the indications" are that many branches of black magic -- and in particular, mind-control magic -- are less-developed among theWCouncil wizards than they are among the BCouncil wizards.
I'm suggesting that Eb -- like all the other WC folks who haven't been exploring that branch of magic -- are simply behind that particular magictech curve. Like... the top speed for a car in 1925 is dramatically lower than the top speed for a car in 2025.
Peabody (and other BC wizards) might very-well know formulations that exceed what Eb (and other WC wizards) believe to be possible when it comes to mind-control magic. How far it's possible to bend somebody, etc.
Also remember the BC may be bringing Outsider magic to bear; it has subtlety to sometimes exceed even the Gatekeeper, and power to overwhelm even battle-champion Ebenezer.