ParanetOnline
The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Bridger on April 16, 2025, 12:01:37 PM
-
This question will be discussed on the next episode of Recorded Neutral Territory (https://rnt.fm/), with the most insightful answers being featured on the show. More information at the bottom of this post.
So we know that fully turning into a Red Court Vampire comes with clear and obvious physical changes (you're not a leathery bat-thing that can pretend to be human), but what, exactly, are the mental changes?
Butcher's world seems to imply that RC Vampires are automatically evil when they fully change. What changes cause this? Is it possible that a small number of them managed to hang on to their humanity somehow? Like "Angel" from Buffy the Vampire Slayer?
Recorded Neutral Territory is a chapter-by-chapter re-read podcast for the Dresden Files. Episode 5 (https://rnt.fm/episodes/sf-05-is-the-doom-the-best-option) (released today), discusses chapters 8 and 9 of Storm Front along with a question: Is the Doom of Damocles the best option available? (https://youtu.be/XSl2S0Xe_DM)
-
This question will be discussed on the next episode of Recorded Neutral Territory (https://rnt.fm/), with the most insightful answers being featured on the show. More information at the bottom of this post.
So we know that fully turning into a Red Court Vampire comes with clear and obvious physical changes (you're not a leathery bat-thing that can pretend to be human), but what, exactly, are the mental changes?
Butcher's world seems to imply that RC Vampires are automatically evil when they fully change. What changes cause this? Is it possible that a small number of them managed to hang on to their humanity somehow? Like "Angel" from Buffy the Vampire Slayer?
Recorded Neutral Territory is a chapter-by-chapter re-read podcast for the Dresden Files. Episode 5 (https://rnt.fm/episodes/sf-05-is-the-doom-the-best-option) (released today), discusses chapters 8 and 9 of Storm Front along with a question: Is the Doom of Damocles the best option available? (https://youtu.be/XSl2S0Xe_DM)
Because it's a chemical change to the whole body, that includes the brain... A Red Court Vamp brain is no longer a "vanilla human brain."
-
The person is changed from a human into something that eats humans. It does bring up a difficult question about whether we can call a different species "evil" for going along with its nature but humans aren't going to like it.
-
The person is changed from a human into something that eats humans. It does bring up a difficult question about whether we can call a different species "evil" for going along with its nature but humans aren't going to like it.
If it was a completely different person/personality then it would be pretty cut and dried. However, it's clear that there is some part of the old human left inside the Red Court vamp. The human's memories merge with the new monster/demon that takes over the body. So I guess what I'm wondering is: how much is left? Is it only knowledge/information? Or is there some semblance of actual personality left, even if the compassion/empathy is gone?
-
If it was a completely different person/personality then it would be pretty cut and dried. However, it's clear that there is some part of the old human left inside the Red Court vamp. The human's memories merge with the new monster/demon that takes over the body. So I guess what I'm wondering is: how much is left? Is it only knowledge/information? Or is there some semblance of actual personality left, even if the compassion/empathy is gone?
When has that been clear? Once the change is complete, there is no evidence that any trace of the former human remains.. When Susan's transformation was complete, she was the youngest Red Court Vamp, no human traces... If there was anything left human of her at all, killing her wouldn't have done in the entire RC because of the way that spell was designed.
-
When has that been clear? Once the change is complete, there is no evidence that any trace of the former human remains...
I agree that we have no clarity here. I think the human is "gone" (soul moves on to "What Comes After"), but at least one element remains: the Rampire still speaks whatever native language the human spoke.
That could be nothing more than Doylist need: "can talk, and understand, so Harry can snark at them" may be the whole of the matter!
I have 2 working Watsonian theories, though ...
First, that the nascent vampire (within the half-turned but still human host) might be learning: learning languages, learning to recognize friends and family, co-workers, learning habits and patterns and behavioral quirks and etc. This gives them a huge leg up, when they finally turn, as they can fake being still-human in their original lives as well as more-generally.
Second, that maybe the vampire binds the ghost of the newly-dead, uses their knowledge & the binding to emulate the human, and "learns by doing" until, eventually, the ghost fades away.
I slightly-prefer the first one... it helps to explain much of the difference between the feral "blood slave' vampires and those more-in-control: those who lived long as half-rampires are simply much more well-adjusted to acting human, fitting-in within human societies, etc.
-
I agree that we have no clarity here. I think the human is "gone" (soul moves on to "What Comes After"), but at least one element remains: the Rampire still speaks whatever native language the human spoke.
Do they? Or is it easier for the author if they continue to speak the same language? Bianca spoke English, as did the Red King, do you think those were their native tongues? A Red Vamp can take on a human mask, but they are not human..
-
Do they? Or is it easier for the author if they continue to speak the same language?
Yes, they do.
Now (as I noted previously) that may just be a matter of authorial/Doylist need.
But it's a fact of the setting; and as such, can be interrogated/explored.
... Bianca spoke English, as did the Red King, do you think those were their native tongues? ...
It certainly was not the Red King's native tongue! He was older than the English language itself, even predating when the Angles & Saxons emigrated from the mainland to the isles; the RK likely spoke Nahuatl or Kʼicheʼ or one of the related languages. I've no idea as to Bianca's native language, but given her elevation into the Ramp nobility I presume she's well over a century old, so modern English certainly isn't her native tongue!
But once they're into centuries+ of age, I think we have to presume they've likely learned one or more other languages.
-
But once they're into centuries+ of age, I think we have to presume they've likely learned one or more other languages.
My point, just because they can speak and learn a language doesn't mean Red Court Vamps have any humanity left in them... A parrot can speak many languages, parrots are also intelligent, but there is nothing human about them.
-
My point, just because they can speak and learn a language doesn't mean Red Court Vamps have any humanity left in them... A parrot can speak many languages, parrots are also intelligent, but there is nothing human about them.
And my point in turn is that fully/freshly turned Ramps seem to immediately know their prior-body birth language. It's something learned that they retain. Until/unless we learn otherwise, I'm going to presume there's other stuff retained, too (fwiw -- Blampires also retain memories).
-
And my point in turn is that fully/freshly turned Ramps seem to immediately know their prior-body birth language. It's something learned that they retain. Until/unless we learn otherwise, I'm going to presume there's other stuff retained, too (fwiw -- Blampires also retain memories).
Something learned isn't the same as retaining genetic material.. If there is no human genetic material remaining after the full change, there is no human remaining, no matter what they can learn!
-
Something learned isn't the same as retaining genetic material.. If there is no human genetic material remaining after the full change, there is no human remaining, no matter what they can learn!
Agreed that they're no longer human.
The OP question, though, is "what changes (mentally)?"
How much of their human memories / experiences do they retain?
Could a Rampire fool colleagues at work, & other acquaintances?
Could they fool their close/longtime friends? Family?
Could they fool their (now-ex) spouse, with a perfect suite of memories, mannerisms, behaviours?
-
Agreed that they're no longer human.
The OP question, though, is "what changes (mentally)?"
How much of their human memories / experiences do they retain?
Could a Rampire fool colleagues at work, & other acquaintances?
Could they fool their close/longtime friends? Family?
Could they fool their (now-ex) spouse, with a perfect suite of memories, mannerisms, behaviours?
You are assuming they would still have contact with their friends and close family, there is no evidence of that.. Even if they did,that doesn't biologically change what they have become, which is not human! My dog behaves very human at times, but he isn't human.
-
You are assuming they would still have contact with their friends and close family, there is no evidence of that...
I'm pretty sure the Rampires selectively turned individuals in critical positions, so they could have their people in those critical positions; so fooling colleagues seems to have been Rampire SOP.
At least some effort to keep friends & close family fooled seems obvious, even if it's just long enough to enact breakups/etc (or turn them, in turn (but that'd be an every-widening pool of complications)).
I don't think Jim has ever explained it in detail, but I presume he's considered his setting in far more depth than he has put out in public.
...Even if they did,that doesn't biologically change what they have become, which is not human!
I'm not sure what about this point is so important to you.
It doesn't seem relevant to the OP's issue, and I haven't seen anyone disagreeing with you, but you keep returning to re-emphasize it.
-
I'm pretty sure the Rampires selectively turned individuals in critical positions, so they could have their people in those critical positions; so fooling colleagues seems to have been Rampire SOP.
At least some effort to keep friends & close family fooled seems obvious, even if it's just long enough to enact breakups/etc (or turn them, in turn (but that'd be an every-widening pool of complications)).
I don't think Jim has ever explained it in detail, but I presume he's considered his setting in far more depth than he has put out in public.
No, he hasn't, however I might add has he ever shown anyone from the Red Court with human friends and family once they have fully turned. Bianca thought she loved her human secretary, but as it turned out mostly as a source of food. Kind of like the relationship people have when they keep a pet tiger. They forget that a tiger is still a tiger, a wild animal, until one day they get attacked.. In a fit of rage, after Harry forces Bianca to revert to her real form, she killed her secretary, she was in full "bat monster form when she killed her "beloved" secretary.
It doesn't seem relevant to the OP's issue, and I haven't seen anyone disagreeing with you, but you keep returning to re-emphasize it.
I do, because it is an important point! Also I think you are confusing White Court Vamps with Red Court Vamps, while both are vampires, they are nothing alike.. WCVs appear human and in most ways are very human, RCVs are not.. RCVs can put on a human mask, and act human, but there is nothing human about them as we saw when Harry pushed Bianca with his sunshine hanky..
-
You are assuming they would still have contact with their friends and close family, there is no evidence of that.. Even if they did,that doesn't biologically change what they have become, which is not human! My dog behaves very human at times, but he isn't human.
I thought it was heavily implied that the Reds capture people of importance and 'turn' them, then allow that person to return to their former position, now fully influenced and controlled by the reds. It is mentioned in Changes that a ton of politicians and business leaders all died/disappeared at the same time the red court died.
-
I thought it was heavily implied that the Reds capture people of importance and 'turn' them, then allow that person to return to their former position, now fully influenced and controlled by the reds. It is mentioned in Changes that a ton of politicians and business leaders all died/disappeared at the same time the red court died.
I don't remember that.. However just because they appear "human" that doesn't mean that they were anymore.. Again, Bianca is a prime example of that, when stressed by Harry's sunshine hanky, she reverted to her true from, that ugly bat creature. Susan as well, once she transformed into full Red Court Vamp becoming the youngest, when Harry cut her throat she was no longer human.
Of the half turned, once the vampire part of them died, if they were young enough the human survived, but those too old simply died.
-
...
I do, because it is an important point! Also I think you are confusing White Court Vamps with Red Court Vamps, while both are vampires, they are nothing alike.. WCVs appear human and in most ways are very human, RCVs are not.. RCVs can put on a human mask, and act human, but there is nothing human about them as we saw when Harry pushed Bianca with his sunshine hanky..
I think the WC are human, yes; humans with a separate entity inside them, the "hunger demon."
Some Whampires are more in control, others less-so. Mab says(implies?) that Thomas is human-enough to become a Knight, and Uriel seems to have a comparable level of interest in Whamps as he is in other Mortals.
RCV's are inhuman. They're like insects that have a parasite eat its way out of them, killing them. The half-turned Red is still human, but the full Rampire kills the host during birth.
None of which is to the point of the OP/topic: how much of the mind (memories, predilections, etc) of the human host remain with the full Rampire? Does the Ramp have the same "favorite color" as the human had? Do they remember what that favorite color was? Do they remember that "having a favorite color" is even a thing?
I will allege that some level of memory remains; while I think they're born ravenously-hungry, Rampires are too capable of "pretending" to be human, too quickly thereafter. It appears VERY much that there must be some level of memory retained, or they wouldn't be able to "fake it" as well as they do.
-
RCV's are inhuman. They're like insects that have a parasite eat its way out of them, killing them. The half-turned Red is still human, but the full Rampire kills the host during birth.
I think you just made my case,
but the full Rampire kills the host during birth.
Dead, is D-E-A-D, nothing remains of the host..
-
... Dead, is D-E-A-D, nothing remains of the host.
You are wrong: language remains. Rampires can speak normally, and don't need years to re-learn "from birth." Also: ghosts remain; and ghosts retain the memories that would be so critical for a Rampire to "fake it 'til they make it."
Or maybe part of the Ramp birth-process is to take a magical "brain-scan" of the dying host -- the human's life flashes before the rampire's eyes...
-
... It is mentioned in Changes that a ton of politicians and business leaders all died/disappeared at the same time the red court died.
I don't remember that...
Nevertheless, it's so.
It's in the chapter immediately following the one where Susan dies; Harry talks about the fallout from the destruction of the entire Red Court; so, not in-the-moment stuff or stuff Harry personally saw/experienced; but Harry telling us about things that he heard of, broadly.
-
It's in the chapter immediately following the one where Susan dies; Harry talks about the fallout from the destruction of the entire Red Court; so, not in-the-moment stuff or stuff Harry personally saw/experienced; but Harry telling us about things that he heard of, broadly.
That doesn't mean anything as far as something "human" remaining in the fully turned. Bianca the main example we have was full
RCV, nothing human about her, but she appeared human to the eye and could be very charming, so could others in the world, but that doesn't mean that anything human remained of them...
-
This question will be discussed on the next episode of Recorded Neutral Territory (https://rnt.fm/), with the most insightful answers being featured on the show. More information at the bottom of this post.
So we know that fully turning into a Red Court Vampire comes with clear and obvious physical changes (you're not a leathery bat-thing that can pretend to be human), but what, exactly, are the mental changes?
Butcher's world seems to imply that RC Vampires are automatically evil when they fully change. What changes cause this? Is it possible that a small number of them managed to hang on to their humanity somehow? Like "Angel" from Buffy the Vampire Slayer?
I doubt it...wait, no.
We've seen that Red-Ortega retained some of real Ortega's adoration of Arianna. But like Mira, I still think a full Red Vampire is not the person who existed before. I think that person dies in the transformation.
But the brain is still there, still full of information and data and habits and skills. It's just that the soul that once used them has departed, and been replaced by this thing from the Nevernever. So a Red Vampire might retain most or all of the knowledge, some of the habits, but like a Black Vampire, it's still a different entity from victim it replaced.
The White Vampires are different, the original human soul is still there, grafted on to the parasite.
That's why, among other things, WVs produce techbane when they use magic, and Red Vampires don't.