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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Bridger on April 02, 2025, 05:18:08 PM
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Brian and I just released our fourth episode (https://rnt.fm/episodes/sf-04-is-monica-morally-culpable) of Recorded Neutral Territory, a chapter-by-chapter re-read podcast. (You can subscribe to the podcast here (https://rnt.fm/subscribe) or watch on our youtube channel (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rk9pA_7AknQ&list=PLKjC4jQ75xuhZXDQ8Ge5b-5cAdidQELjz&pp=gAQB)).
This week we worked through chapters 6 and 7 of Storm Front where we (finally) got to see some real Magic, and meet Toot Toot for the first time! I had to re-evaluate my view of the little pixie after examining the scene more critically.
After that Morgan shows up, which normally ruins the party but we had some fun re-evaluating him as well, with context from Turn Coat and the Journal micro-fiction.
After that we discussed whether Monica Sells is at all morally culpable for her part in Storm Front. She participated in the creation of three-eye, and sent Dresden after Victor without giving him the whole story. Do we fault her for those things?
Finally, we announced that our next episode would, (in addition to examining chapters 8 and 9), be asking the question: Is there a better system than the Doom of Damocles? This episode will be released in two weeks (April 16th).
Hope you all are enjoying the show. Please let us know (here, or via email: mac@rnt.fm) if you have any good Questions for Bob in the future, or any other constructive feedback regarding the show.
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I don't remember where it said that Monica Sells had anything to do with the creation of Three Eye. Could you give chapter and quote? I am not saying you are wrong, I just don't remember it.
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Monica participates in the orgy rituals that Victor used to create them. I think she's somewhat culpable but minimally so. Especially compared to Victor and the married couple (I forget their name). There's also a pretty good argument suggesting that Victor manipulated or abused her into doing it so she isn't.
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Monica participates in the orgy rituals that Victor used to create them. I think she's somewhat culpable but minimally so. Especially compared to Victor and the married couple (I forget their name). There's also a pretty good argument suggesting that Victor manipulated or abused her into doing it so she isn't.
I just went back and reread Chapter 21 of Storm Front, inadvertently Harry soul gazes Monica and realizes all she really cares about is protecting her children. Monica was an abused woman and the family was desperate for money, so she went along with Victor, the rituals, then he forced her to take the Three Eye and she grew more afraid..Then Victor pulled in the Beckitts and their desire to get revenge against Marcone.. Then Monica began to fear for her children, then she went to Harry. No, Monica Sells isn't culpable in any of this, she was a victim.
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I just went back and reread Chapter 21 of Storm Front, inadvertently Harry soul gazes Monica and realizes all she really cares about is protecting her children. Monica was an abused woman and the family was desperate for money, so she went along with Victor, the rituals, then he forced her to take the Three Eye and she grew more afraid..Then Victor pulled in the Beckitts and their desire to get revenge against Marcone.. Then Monica began to fear for her children, then she went to Harry. No, Monica Sells isn't culpable in any of this, she was a victim.
During the show we made clear the distinction. She is NOT morally culpable for being abused, or for any of the actions of Victor against her or her Children. However, she did make morally questionable choices with regards to Dresden. She put him in danger without giving him the full picture of what was happening. He could have easily died because she refused to give him that information.
That's what we discussed on the show. I think there's room to find her at least partly at fault for not allowing Harry to make his own informed choices. However, I think she probably can't be held at fault for knowing about the 3-eye and failing to report it. Fear for her life and the life of her kids against literally unknown power (she didn't know how deep or shallow Victor's power was) is a strong mitigating factor.
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During the show we made clear the distinction. She is NOT morally culpable for being abused, or for any of the actions of Victor against her or her Children. However, she did make morally questionable choices with regards to Dresden. She put him in danger without giving him the full picture of what was happening. He could have easily died because she refused to give him that information.
Abuse is complicated and spouses often react in questionable ways, or what defies logic to someone not living under that kind of condition. Remember this woman still loved or thought she still loved her husband in spite of what he was doing to her and her family. That sounds twisted, but often the case, often the law is no help either, this is why so many abused spouses end up dead. After the soul gaze getting the full picture, or a fuller picture of what was going on, and remember at this point Monica was still making a plea for her husband that he was once a good man.. While Harry did bring it to her attention that she should have told him everything when she first saw him, he understood and didn't hold it against her.
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Abuse is complicated and spouses often react in questionable ways, or what defies logic to someone not living under that kind of condition. Remember this woman still loved or thought she still loved her husband in spite of what he was doing to her and her family. That sounds twisted, but often the case, often the law is no help either, this is why so many abused spouses end up dead. After the soul gaze getting the full picture, or a fuller picture of what was going on, and remember at this point Monica was still making a plea for her husband that he was once a good man.. While Harry did bring it to her attention that she should have told him everything when she first saw him, he understood and didn't hold it against her.
To be clear: Her actions are completely understandable, and I think they are justifiable from her perspective. I still think that if Harry had died as a result of her withholding information, I would still hold her somewhat accountable.
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To be clear: Her actions are completely understandable, and I think they are justifiable from her perspective. I still think that if Harry had died as a result of her withholding information, I would still hold her somewhat accountable.
I think she'd feel guilty, but I don't think she is accountable. Why? Because when she first went to Harry she was dealing with her own set of emotional problems. At that point she was still trying to rationalize what her husband was doing, trying to save a marriage that shouldn't be saved. The woman didn't know squat about magic, I doubt that she understood that not telling Harry everything would or could get him killed. All she wanted was for things to be normal again, she didn't want police involvement, because she feared that if they got involved she'd lose her husband and maybe her children as well.
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I think she'd feel guilty, but I don't think she is accountable. Why? Because when she first went to Harry she was dealing with her own set of emotional problems. At that point she was still trying to rationalize what her husband was doing, trying to save a marriage that shouldn't be saved. The woman didn't know squat about magic, I doubt that she understood that not telling Harry everything would or could get him killed. All she wanted was for things to be normal again, she didn't want police involvement, because she feared that if they got involved she'd lose her husband and maybe her children as well.
She can't be held accountable for what she didn't know.
I don't think we can be completely clear on what she did/didn't know about magic, though. How long was Victor a practitioner? How much did she see?
I think the OP is overreaching in thinking that we have enough info to come to a sure conclusion; yes, Monica Sells will bear moral culpability if she knowingly & willfully endangered someone, but I'm unclear how much she actually knew.
As @Mira points out, there's mitigating factors (suffering from abuse, mother protecting her child); but the "mitigating factors" only reduce the issues; they don't provide a blanket excuse.
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She can't be held accountable for what she didn't know.
I don't think we can be completely clear on what she did/didn't know about magic, though. How long was Victor a practitioner? How much did she see?[/q]
That's a fair point. It's possible I'm speculating that she knew more.
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As @Mira points out, there's mitigating factors (suffering from abuse, mother protecting her child); but the "mitigating factors" only reduce the issues; they don't provide a blanket excuse.
But they do, because Monica was symptoms are classic for battered/abused spouse syndrome. It isn't an excuse, it's the mental state she was in because what had gone down in her family. Also don't minimize that Victor had also managed to get her addicted to Three Eye in the process. It took a great deal of courage for her to even come to Harry in the first place. In the kitchen after the soul gaze Harry does ask her straight out why didn't she come clean with him in the office? Her only response was unspeakable fear, thinking she wouldn't be believed, for her own sanity she had no other words for him.. Harry didn't press her further on that point, if he felt she was culpable at all I think he would have pressed her or said as an aside afterwords that she bore responsibility, he didn't.
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But they do, because Monica was symptoms are classic for battered/abused spouse syndrome. It isn't an excuse, it's the mental state she was in because what had gone down in her family. Also don't minimize that Victor had also managed to get her addicted to Three Eye in the process. It took a great deal of courage for her to even come to Harry in the first place ...
Yes, these are all mitigating factors.
Yes, it took tremendous courage for her to seek Harry's help.
They do not entirely relieve Monica of all moral culpability.
It's essentially the same as a drunk driver: once they're drunk, their judgement is impaired. But they chose to be in that drunken state; and usually, knowing they'd be driving (home from the bar, etc).
I doubt Monica ever would have chosen to be abused, or addicted. But there are moments in that downward slide where you can break free, where she could have broken free. So long as it was just her, she is 100% the victim.
But her "victimhood" does not offer her complete moral cover when it puts others at risk. She made a choice; it may have been months before, or years. But she chose something destructive, and that choice led to her putting another person in harm's way.
... In the kitchen after the soul gaze Harry does ask her straight out why didn't she come clean with him in the office? Her only response was unspeakable fear, thinking she wouldn't be believed, for her own sanity she had no other words for him.. Harry didn't press her further on that point, if he felt she was culpable at all I think he would have pressed her or said as an aside afterwords that she bore responsibility, he didn't.
Harry was deep into his white-knight gallantry phase; Monica was clearly a victim. I doubt you could have gotten Harry to press more guilt onto her if you'd held a hot poker to the soles of his feet!
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I doubt Monica ever would have chosen to be abused, or addicted. But there are moments in that downward slide where you can break free, where she could have broken free. So long as it was just her, she is 100% the victim.
Spousal abuse doesn't work that way. And Monica did chose to break free, that's why she went to Harry. However she wasn't free, the emotional damage from the fear and her conflicted feelings she had for husband still raged with in her. It's a real Stockholm Syndrome type thing... Carefully go back and reread those passages in Storm Front. An addicted drunk as you say can chose to stop drinking, but we both know it isn't that simple. Neither is being a victim of spousal abuse, the woman still loves her husband even as he abuses her and often will go back even at the cost of her life..
I leave you with the first couple of sentences from Harry's soul gaze with her...page 230 Storm Front.
I hadn't wanted to know that she had been abused as a child. She married a man who provided her with more of the same, as an adult.
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Does she bear some moral culpability? Hard to say. Good points being made about coercion and abuse warping her ability to make an informed choice with regards to participating in the rites. However, given her history, I doubt any human jury (informed vanilla mortals able to understand and pass judgement on supernatural cases, not the high horse white council) would convict her of any wrongdoing. That is not the same as moral culpability, but it does illustrate how her actions would be viewed with regards to fault in general.
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Does she bear some moral culpability? Hard to say. Good points being made about coercion and abuse warping her ability to make an informed choice with regards to participating in the rites. However, given her history, I doubt any human jury (informed vanilla mortals able to understand and pass judgement on supernatural cases, not the high horse white council) would convict her of any wrongdoing. That is not the same as moral culpability, but it does illustrate how her actions would be viewed with regards to fault in general.
When you start down the moral culpability road it starts to get unclear.. None of what happened is Monica's fault, also she went as far as she was able to or capable of going to Harry in the first place.
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When you start down the moral culpability road it starts to get unclear.. None of what happened is Monica's fault, also she went as far as she was able to or capable of going to Harry in the first place.
Since morality is subjective based upon one's beliefs and experiences it is hard to paint with a wide brush when it comes to culpability.
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Since morality is subjective based upon one's beliefs and experiences it is hard to paint with a wide brush when it comes to culpability.
That's what makes this such an interesting question! I expect we'll have more interesting moral quandries to ponder as we continue our progress through the books on the podcast.
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Since morality is subjective based upon one's beliefs and experiences it is hard to paint with a wide brush when it comes to culpability.
Monica did bring it to the attention of someone. Someone, i.e. a wizard who would actually be able to understand and act. It took great courage just to take that baby step.
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Monica did bring it to the attention of someone. Someone, i.e. a wizard who would actually be able to understand and act. It took great courage just to take that baby step.
I agree that given her history it took great courage to take that step. She was potentially putting herself in the cross hairs of the person she was asking to fix the situation. However, what exactly did she bring to Harry's attention? Did she tell him that her husband is creating drugs, participating in black magic, and killing people? She deserves credit for going to Harry, but that doesn't change the fact that she did not tell him the whole story and in a sense mislead him to what the problem was. She told him her husband was missing (true from a certain point of view), but was hoping to put the wizard on a collision course with the Three Eye Operation in order to shut it down. Had she told him more of the truth he might have been better prepared to resolve the situation without it getting as messy. Heck he could have kicked up to the Wardens who would have been all too happy to go medieval on that operation.
Putting aside Monica's background for a second, trying to do the right thing later does not erase moral culpability from earlier actions. If I and a partner rob and kill someone together and then I later go to the cops to turn myself in and give them information to catch my partner, it doesn't change what I had done. It doesn't paint my actions in a different moral light.
Does Monica deserve grace for her situation? Yes. Does Monica deserve credit for reaching out for help despite her situation? Yes. Does she bear some moral culpability for joining the activities in the first place, not reaching out for help sooner, and misleading Dresden when she reached out for help? I would argue yes, but as I said in an earlier post, that goes not equate to punishment. No reasonable jury is going to lay the hammer down on her.
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I agree that given her history it took great courage to take that step. She was potentially putting herself in the cross hairs of the person she was asking to fix the situation. However, what exactly did she bring to Harry's attention? Did she tell him that her husband is creating drugs, participating in black magic, and killing people? She deserves credit for going to Harry, but that doesn't change the fact that she did not tell him the whole story and in a sense mislead him to what the problem was. She told him her husband was missing (true from a certain point of view), but was hoping to put the wizard on a collision course with the Three Eye Operation in order to shut it down. Had she told him more of the truth he might have been better prepared to resolve the situation without it getting as messy. Heck he could have kicked up to the Wardens who would have been all too happy to go medieval on that operation.
Not that simple, when it comes to an abused woman, a terrified abused woman. A conflicted woman, who in spite of everything still loved or thought she loved her husband, dealing with the reality of what he had become. Monica couldn't get away from him, when her sister stood up for her telling Victor to let her go, he killed her. No, Monica wasn't capable of logically thinking it through like you describe, nor culpable. She went to Harry because she knew enough to know the police would merely think her insane.. She was terrified for her kids, as Harry said;
Where she was, there was nothing but an endless, hopeless darkness full of fear, pain, and defeat.
That's what he saw in the soul gaze, that's why he was so gentle with her.
Putting aside Monica's background for a second, trying to do the right thing later does not erase moral culpability from earlier actions. If I and a partner rob and kill someone together and then I later go to the cops to turn myself in and give them information to catch my partner, it doesn't change what I had done. It doesn't paint my actions in a different moral light.
However Monica's background cannot be put aside, it is part of the picture.. If your partner bullied you, if you had no self esteem to begin with because you had been bullied all of your life, if you loved your partner in spite of everything, you might go along.. Does it change the fact that you helped? No, but neither are you totally responsible for your actions. When someone's mind has been so screwed with you cannot judge that their thinking was rational, it wasn't.. To be morally responsible I believe you also have to be able to think rationally, Monica wasn't.
Does Monica deserve grace for her situation? Yes. Does Monica deserve credit for reaching out for help despite her situation? Yes. Does she bear some moral culpability for joining the activities in the first place, not reaching out for help sooner, and misleading Dresden when she reached out for help? I would argue yes, but as I said in an earlier post, that goes not equate to punishment. No reasonable jury is going to lay the hammer down on her.
Because she wasn't morally culpable, her problems started long before she met Victor.
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However Monica's background cannot be put aside, it is part of the picture.. If your partner bullied you, if you had no self esteem to begin with because you had been bullied all of your life, if you loved your partner in spite of everything, you might go along.. Does it change the fact that you helped? No, but neither are you totally responsible for your actions.
I have been thinking long and hard about this question. I have a hard time removing all moral culpability from someone regardless of what they went through. Actions need to be interpreted in light of circumstances, but circumstances don't justify all actions or inactions. What Monica went though is horrible and she was put in an awful position, but, in my opinion, circumstances do not wipe the slate clean and remove all culpability.
To be morally responsible I believe you also have to be able to think rationally, Monica wasn't.
By this logic any moral culpability for any action committed in the heat of the moment or out of passion could be excused because the person was not thinking rationally in that moment.
Because she wasn't morally culpable, her problems started long before she met Victor.
I doubt that you and I will ever come to agreement on this subject and that is ok. It takes all perspectives to make a village.
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I have been thinking long and hard about this question. I have a hard time removing all moral culpability from someone regardless of what they went through. Actions need to be interpreted in light of circumstances, but circumstances don't justify all actions or inactions. What Monica went though is horrible and she was put in an awful position, but, in my opinion, circumstances do not wipe the slate clean and remove all culpability.
No? Do you blame someone suffering from mental illness? In fact because of the abuse she had suffered all of her life, Monica could not be rational in these matters.
By this logic any moral culpability for any action committed in the heat of the moment or out of passion could be excused because the person was not thinking rationally in that moment.
Apples to oranges, Monica isn't a rational person acting out in the heat of the moment nor out of passion. She was and is a victim, suffering from a long list of emotional and mental issues stemming from her life time as a victim of abuse.
Just Googled it.
What are the long-term effects of childhood trauma and abuse?
Problems now concretely linked to child abuse and neglect include behavioral and achievement problems in school; heart, lung and liver disease; obesity and diabetes; depression, anxiety disorders, and increased suicide attempts; increased criminal behaviors, illicit drug use and alcohol abuse; increased risky sexual ...
You are blaming the victim here, Monica is a victim here every bit as much as Victor's other victims.