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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: SerScot on March 24, 2025, 01:36:53 PM
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When did that happen. In Dead Beat he was “Wild Fae”. Did something change or did Mr. Butcher change his mind?
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When did that happen. In Dead Beat he was “Wild Fae”. Did something change or did Mr. Butcher change his mind?
No, I think I could be wrong, but Fae like Toot began as a "Wild Fae" as well but pledged his allegiance to Winter after Harry became Winter Knight. It could be that the Erl King started out the same way and as he grew also made a choice and became a vassal of Winter, but that's a guess.
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No, I think I could be wrong, but Fae like Toot began as a "Wild Fae" as well but pledged his allegiance to Winter after Harry became Winter Knight. It could be that the Erl King started out the same way and as he grew also made a choice and became a vassal of Winter, but that's a guess.
But the discussion explicitly states that the Erl King is on par with the queens of Faerie… that he’s a peer of Mab. If he randomly joined Winter between Dead Beat and Battle Ground that would be a huge shift in Winter’s favor… it is an unbalancing of forces. That doesn’t make sense.
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But the discussion explicitly states that the Erl King is on par with the queens of Faerie… that he’s a peer of Mab. If he randomly joined Winter between Dead Beat and Battle Ground that would be a huge shift in Winter’s favor… it is an unbalancing of forces. That doesn’t make sense.
The Erlking is of Summer.
He's only a 'peer' of Mab/Titania in a legalistic sense, that is, he's a sort of 'King of Summer'. His raw power is far less than either Queen. I don't know how he would stack up against the Winter/Summer Lady.
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The Erlking is of Summer.
He's only a 'peer' of Mab/Titania in a legalistic sense, that is, he's a sort of 'King of Summer'. His raw power is far less than either Queen. I don't know how he would stack up against the Winter/Summer Lady.
So far he seems to play a minor role.. I remember him vaguely, if he is a sort of "King of Summer," then you'd think he'd have had more of a role than the Lady or even the Knight in Harry's adventures, but he doesn't, not on page anyway... That isn't to say he won't in the future. In my opinion he is more of an independent and has his own agenda.
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So far he seems to play a minor role.. I remember him vaguely, if he is a sort of "King of Summer," then you'd think he'd have had more of a role than the Lady or even the Knight in Harry's adventures, but he doesn't, not on page anyway... That isn't to say he won't in the future. In my opinion he is more of an independent and has his own agenda.
He isn't part of Titania's court, per se... he's just more summerfae than winterfae.
He's a "king" in the sense of being monarch of his own court (i.e. the goblins); and you're right, he's an "independent."
Taken together, though... this makes him (in some ways) a "Summer King."
He's also the default Huntsman (leader of the Wild Hunt; but I think that's something different from his kingship: someone else can lead the Hunt without becoming king of the Goblins.
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When did that happen. In Dead Beat he was “Wild Fae”. Did something change or did Mr. Butcher change his mind?
Where is that passage?
I'd have to re-read it. Off the top of my head, though: I might suspect it was just a battle-order sort of thing, allowing for Mab to have ultimate field-command of all Fae forces.
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Where is that passage?
I'd have to re-read it. Off the top of my head, though: I might suspect it was just a battle-order sort of thing, allowing for Mab to have ultimate field-command of all Fae forces.
It was in the general discussion in Dead Beat regarding the EK. And it was explicitly stated in Battle Ground (during the discussion with EK and Vadderrung before the big fighting starts that EK is Winter Fae.
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It was in the general discussion in Dead Beat regarding the EK.
I think he's "Wild Fae" in the sense of "not technically owing allegiance to either Summer or Winter Courts. The Erlking is his own sovereign monarch.
.... And it was explicitly stated in Battle Ground (during the discussion with EK and Vadderrung before the big fighting starts that EK is Winter Fae.
That's the bit where I need to track the exact language, and context; they might have just been talking about field-command and battle arrays, not overall mystic politics.
Similarly for the opening night of _Peace Talks_, before Ethniu arrives: was Erl there at the talks? Did he have his own separate "contingent," or was he attached to Mab's group?
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I think he's "Wild Fae" in the sense of "not technically owing allegiance to either Summer or Winter Courts. The Erlking is his own sovereign monarch.
That's the bit where I need to track the exact language, and context; they might have just been talking about field-command and battle arrays, not overall mystic politics.
Similarly for the opening night of _Peace Talks_, before Ethniu arrives: was Erl there at the talks? Did he have his own separate "contingent," or was he attached to Mab's group?
The Erl King doesn’t appear in Peace Talks only in Battle Ground
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I don't recall where I got this impression, but I thought that the Erlking was the Summer King (Different court than the Summer Court), and he was balanced by Kringle, who is the Winter King (Not part of the Winter Court).
They are both powerful Wild Fae, with their own vassal structures not associated with either Court formally. But these Wild Fae may become allies with the Courts from time to time.
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I don't recall where I got this impression, but I thought that the Erlking was the Summer King (Different court than the Summer Court), and he was balanced by Kringle, who is the Winter King (Not part of the Winter Court).
That's a fantheory I've read, but IIRC WoJ has explicitly denied it. In particular, there is only one Winter Queen & Summer Queen, and there is no corresponding singular King for either. The Erlking is a king (who is Summer(ish)), but not the king -- except of the Goblins.
I don't even think Kringle is a "King" per se; but (as a part of Winter) he is in fact subject to Mab (something she's careful about, since the current Kringle is only part-time, and the rest of the time he's... rather more than that).
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Found this WOJ quote on Reddit
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"There is no such thing as the Summer King in the Dresden Files faerie cosmology. Mab and Titania need a king like a fish need a bicycle. There are a ton of independent rulers of the Wyld, though much like the Erlking who is a member of the Winter Court more or less as a sign of courtesy and respect. They will occasionally make alliances (and dalliances) witht he great rulers of the Sidhe"
- Jim Butcher, 2014 AMA
Looks like according to this WOJ the Erlking is a member of the Winter Court, I guess like Vadderrung is a member of the Winter Court in his Kris Kringle carnation... He is also referred to as the "Master of the Hunt" or Herne and was called by that name in one of the books.
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Found this WOJ quote on Reddit
Looks like according to this WOJ the Erlking is a member of the Winter Court, I guess like Vadderrung is a member of the Winter Court in his Kris Kringle carnation... He is also referred to as the "Master of the Hunt" or Herne and was called by that name in one of the books.
Yes, Erlking "hangs" with Winter more than Summer.
But he's more "Summery" in himself...
Jim: He is wyldfae. He isn’t a subject of Mab or Titania. That’s what Wyldfae means. But his origins are in the Summer-side of the cycle of seasons, just like Titania’s are.
Ditto Santa, only in Winter
I think the problem is with us in the fandom: we want to try to assign categories for these beings, and they just don't fit neatly into the boxes we have... nor neatly and entirely out of our boxes...
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Yes, Erlking "hangs" with Winter more than Summer.
But he's more "Summery" in himself...
I think the problem is with us in the fandom: we want to try to assign categories for these beings, and they just don't fit neatly into the boxes we have... nor neatly and entirely out of our boxes...
Yup, an independent operator..
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That's a fantheory I've read, but IIRC WoJ has explicitly denied it. In particular, there is only one Winter Queen & Summer Queen, and there is no corresponding singular King for either. The Erlking is a king (who is Summer(ish)), but not the king -- except of the Goblins.
I don't even think Kringle is a "King" per se; but (as a part of Winter) he is in fact subject to Mab (something she's careful about, since the current Kringle is only part-time, and the rest of the time he's... rather more than that).
It would be interesting to see how Kringle interacts with the Mothers. JB said at one point that pretty much everybody in Faerie is subordinate to the Mothers, but is Odin? I mean he's not exactly 'of Faerie' in his own identity...
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It would be interesting to see how Kringle interacts with the Mothers. JB said at one point that pretty much everybody in Faerie is subordinate to the Mothers, but is Odin? I mean he's not exactly 'of Faerie' in his own identity...
I doubt that he is because he is a "god" in his own right.
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I doubt that he is because he is a "god" in his own right.
So long as he wears the Kringle mantle, he's subject to Winter.
But he appears able to put it on and take it off at will.
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So long as he wears the Kringle mantle, he's subject to Winter.
But he appears able to put it on and take it off at will.
More like an associate of Winter or with Winter, I doubt that Kringle would take a direct order from Mab for example, or that she would give one.. I think they actually agree on a lot of stuff, I also think because of his multiple mantles that he is way too complex to be a subject.
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More like an associate of Winter or with Winter, I doubt that Kringle would take a direct order from Mab for example, or that she would give one.. I think they actually agree on a lot of stuff, I also think because of his multiple mantles that he is way too complex to be a subject.
Yes, Odin & Mab agree on lots of stuff (as we saw in Skin Game)... though not on all things.
But the Kringlemantle is one of Winters/Mab's. Within the scope of Kringle's duties, it is entirely subject to Winterlaw. Now... Mab does not wish to be seriously at odds with Odin, so she isn't likely to give
any orders that Odin -- or Vadderung -- finds deeply offensive. By the same token, Odin doesn't want to be seriously at odds with Mab, so Kringle is always looking for ways to be inoffensive.
When push comes to shove (if Mab orders something he's unwilling to do) Odin can simply take off the Kringlemantle and say, "nope."
The thing is: neither of them want this to happen simply as a result of Aesir/Faerie political squabbling, or points of pride between the two monarchs or their courts. The Kringlemantle and what it represents and does is important to both of them. Without ever actually speaking about it, they are lowkey collaborating to avoid needless conflicts; and both of them are pretty damned good at that sort of tactico-strategic thinking, so it works well (and has for hundreds of years).
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One can be closely allied with, but at the same time not be the subject of..
Here is the definition of the term vassel;
vassal. noun. vas·sal ˈvas-əl. : a person in the Middle Ages who received protection and land from a lord in return for loyalty and service.
This really doesn't fit Kringle nor the Erl King, neither really needs land from or the protection of Mab. Though they have both been loyal to a degree to her and of some service to her, in my opinion the term ally is better applied to both.