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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: SerScot on March 28, 2022, 12:26:15 AM
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I was think ming about how Harry mentioned that every Wizard perceives Soul Gazes differently. Some as pure sound… others as visions… Then it occurred to me how differently people react to being Soul Gazed by Harry and perceiving his soul in return. Molly was already crushing on Harry and her crush only deepened. Rudolph’s partner is terrified by Harry and tells him to stay the hell away from him. Marcone sees Harry as someone dangerous but useful to him.
Are soulgazes inherently subjective based upon what the person being gazed brings to the interaction?
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And Susan fell into a faint.
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Of course they are subjective. That does not meat it is false.
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Of course they are subjective. That does not meat it is false.
Exactly, it is how the gazer interprets them that is important. An experienced soul gazer understands that what is seen is truth, but that truth is complicated. Take what Harry saw in Molly, at sixteen looking into her was like looking into a kaleidoscope, so many futures were before her both the dark and the light, all were true aspects of her personality, but none dominated yet. That is why he felt that she could still be pulled back.
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Of course they are subjective. That does not meat it is false.
Yes, but given the inherent subjectivity… how much good hard objective data really comes from a “soulgaze”?
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Yes, but given the inherent subjectivity… how much good hard objective data really comes from a “soulgaze”?
Nothing that can be measured, published and gets you a Phd in science😊
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Yes, but given the inherent subjectivity… how much good hard objective data really comes from a “soulgaze”?
Apparently a lot as far as the White Council is concerned.. Let's not forget that a Warden is required to do a soul gaze on a defendant, then give testimony about what he or she saw in a trail that could cost the defendant his or her head. Also the Merlin, in Proven Guilty told Harry that he, himself soul gazed the Korean Kid and that he was not redeemable, thus deserved the chop.
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But then you need to depend upon the veracity of the Warden, fine if it’s Carlos, but Justin DuMorne was a Warden, how many people did he ‘clear’ how many did he ‘damn’ and did he clear some he knew were guilty, and damn some he knew were innocent.
Basically unless a soul gaze can be recorded and played back to third parties they are worthless. You can only check on the veracity of the person reporting on the soulgaze by soulgazing them, but then are you telling the truth ?
Frankly the best objective determinator now is the Sword of Faith it can’t harm the innocent and is capable of rendering different judgements on individuals depending on the circumstances of the case, and you can video what it does.
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Apparently a lot as far as the White Council is concerned.. Let's not forget that a Warden is required to do a soul gaze on a defendant, then give testimony about what he or she saw in a trail that could cost the defendant his or her head. Also the Merlin, in Proven Guilty told Harry that he, himself soul gazed the Korean Kid and that he was not redeemable, thus deserved the chop.
But that is double subjectivity. First there is the soul gaze itself and then there is the merlin communicating it. Maybe the Korean boy could have been saved.
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But that is double subjectivity. First there is the soul gaze itself and then there is the merlin communicating it. Maybe the Korean boy could have been saved.
Perhaps, that is an interesting scene because the Merlin is trying to assure Harry that the kid was unredeemable, but at the same time expressing with extreme prejudice, that the answer for most of the kids that begin down that road is the chop.
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Even discounting the subjectivity, they're not precise or all encompassing. Eb even says in TC,
but there it is. I reckon you 'gazed him, Hoss, but it ain't a lie detector. You know that too.
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but there it is. I reckon you 'gazed him, Hoss, but it ain't a lie detector. You know that too.,
But that is a more complicated answer than it appears to be. So while a soul gaze isn't a lie detector, it might be able to reveal that the person being gazed is the type of person who is prone to lying. I also think that to be an accurate soul gazer takes a lot of experience because there is a lot of nuance to it.
An experienced subject is also able to hide a lot of facts about his or herself, especially if the person doing the gazing is totally inexperienced at it. Best example is Eb and Harry, Eb seemed to know exactly what sixteen year old Harry was about, but sixteen year old Harry saw nothing as far as Eb being his grandfather, or that Eb was the White Council's hit man.
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Best example is Eb and Harry, Eb seemed to know exactly what sixteen year old Harry was about, but sixteen year old Harry saw nothing as far as Eb being his grandfather, or that Eb was the White Council's hit man.
Eb would have taken charge of Harry no matter what the soul gaze showed. As for what Harry saw, I would say that Eb's identity/being is not in being a grandfather nor is it being a hitman. I would guess it's similar to Rawlins in being strong, steady, and protective.
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Eb would have taken charge of Harry no matter what the soul gaze showed. As for what Harry saw, I would say that Eb's identity/being is not in being a grandfather nor is it being a hitman. I would guess it's similar to Rawlins in being strong, steady, and protective.
Or it did, but sixteen year old Harry really didn't know what he was seeing. Nor did Molly at the time of her soul gaze with Harry, he saw all her possible futures, while what she saw made her want to have a sexual relationship because she saw his loneliness. She never saw the the ice water coming for her head to put end to that notion.
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Yes, but given the inherent subjectivity… how much good hard objective data really comes from a “soulgaze”?
Very very little "hard objective" data... like, is this person a Whampire, or not? Yeah, you can get that as objective data (and such data can be important (e.g. may have saved Ramirez's life)).
But don't discount the idea that you can still get a very great deal of very "good hard objective data" from a 'gaze!
Repeating elements of the Dresden Files include that the "facts" (the "hard data") don't always tell the whole story; and that "objectivity" is more often a fools' errand than not.
... Basically unless a soul gaze can be recorded and played back to third parties they are worthless ...
I think the White Council relies (much!) too heavily on the results of a Soulgaze. But I think calling them "worthless" is even further off-base. They are the single most penetrating way to look into who a person is, down deep. And AFAIK we see no signs that a 'gaze can be substantively defeated, or defended-against (other than refusing to engage).
But then you need to depend upon the veracity of the Warden, fine if it’s Carlos, but Justin DuMorne was a Warden, how many people did he ‘clear’ how many did he ‘damn’ and did he clear some he knew were guilty, and damn some he knew were innocent...
I seem to remember (unless I mis-remember?) that Warden SOP is to get at least 3 'gazes on someone who's on trial. That right there would go a long way toward circumventing any DuMornes who would subvert the system that way (if I am misremembering, then clearly they should do it!): if the Warden corps are so corrupt that 3 random individual Wardens can reliably be presumed to deliver any pre-determined testimony you want, then it's game-over and the Bad Guys have already won.
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Very very little "hard objective" data... like, is this person a Whampire, or not? Yeah, you can get that as objective data (and such data can be important (e.g. may have saved Ramirez's life)).
But don't discount the idea that you can still get a very great deal of very "good hard objective data" from a 'gaze!
Repeating elements of the Dresden Files include that the "facts" (the "hard data") don't always tell the whole story; and that "objectivity" is more often a fools' errand than not.
I think the White Council relies (much!) too heavily on the results of a Soulgaze. But I think calling them "worthless" is even further off-base. They are the single most penetrating way to look into who a person is, down deep. And AFAIK we see no signs that a 'gaze can be substantively defeated, or defended-against (other than refusing to engage).
I seem to remember (unless I mis-remember?) that Warden SOP is to get at least 3 'gazes on someone who's on trial. That right there would go a long way toward circumventing any DuMornes who would subvert the system that way (if I am misremembering, then clearly they should do it!): if the Warden corps are so corrupt that 3 random individual Wardens can reliably be presumed to deliver any pre-determined testimony you want, then it's game-over and the Bad Guys have already won.
They only do a soul gaze when they think it necessary and they easily execute you without a trial if they are convinced enough you should die. Remember Molly's trial. Harry did a soul gaze but nobody else did and if it was left to the merlin she would have been executed without a trial which was clearly a waste of time and effort.
I am quite sure lots of warlocks are executed without trial or soul gaze, that is the impression I get. Partly because if they have any idea they will fight to the death anyway, partly because they are dangerous enough not to take the risk and partly because the wardens have serious manpower issues.
No doubt the council has an important task and we would be worse off without it but there are serious problems as well. The story would be too simple without them.
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The Council can't save young borderline warlocks because their rules are insane.
They don't bring them to a central location for schooling(like say a giant castle with a huge underground complex under their total control), they'd rather foster them out to a single total stranger used to living in isolation. Oh, and while we hope you can bond with this kid who's led a hard and undisciplined life, if you don't get him straight, we'll have to just kill you both.
If the reward for failed altruism is death, there aren't going to be many volunteers. In fact, I'd be suspicious of the motives of any volunteer. They must have a hidden agenda of some sort or be recruiting a talented follower to go rogue with.
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The Council can't save young borderline warlocks because their rules are insane.
They don't bring them to a central location for schooling(like say a giant castle with a huge underground complex under their total control), they'd rather foster them out to a single total stranger used to living in isolation. Oh, and while we hope you can bond with this kid who's led a hard and undisciplined life, if you don't get him straight, we'll have to just kill you both.
If the reward for failed altruism is death, there aren't going to be many volunteers. In fact, I'd be suspicious of the motives of any volunteer. They must have a hidden agenda of some sort or be recruiting a talented follower to go rogue with.
Yeah, all of that tends to happen when one goes zero tolerance.. Yes, it sound good, tough on warlocks can't risk one slipping through, they do too much damage.. But as we all know almost nothing is that simple, they lose a lot of potential good future wizards that way.
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The Council can't save young borderline warlocks because their rules are insane.
They don't bring them to a central location for schooling ...
Yeah, all of that tends to happen when one goes zero tolerance...
I think the key issue is simply that the Council doesn't have enough people, or the right sorts of infrastructure. Even before the war against the Reds, and their struggles with the situations caused by a "Black Council" (who they wouldn't even admit existed), the wizards had no good way to spot any proto-wizards, nor to collect them for "proper" training.
Harry could probably have used Little Chicago for something like that... for the city of Chicago (I guess the entire rest of the world would need something else).
But... what would Harry have done with the baby-wizardlings he found? Become an (unpaid!) schoolteacher? Become a mass kidnapper (because you know there'd be plenty of "oh HELL no!" parents).
I'm not saying you're wrong; I'm just saying that a better option is not as easy as you suggest...
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Also you don’t want to soul gaze too many warlocks. It can be bad for your mental health.
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think the key issue is simply that the Council doesn't have enough people, or the right sorts of infrastructure. Even before the war against the Reds, and their struggles with the situations caused by a "Black Council" (who they wouldn't even admit existed), the wizards had no good way to spot any proto-wizards, nor to collect them for "proper" training.
Nor are we talking about a litter of unwanted kittens in a world over populated by cats that need to be put in a bucket of cold water and drowned.. These kids are human beings, and it isn't exactly that there are not enough wizards to take them on as apprentices, but too many who don't want to take the time or subject themselves to the risk of taking on a troubled kid.
But... what would Harry have done with the baby-wizardlings he found? Become an (unpaid!) schoolteacher? Become a mass kidnapper (because you know there'd be plenty of "oh HELL no!" parents).
I'm sure there would be some of that, but most of these kids and their parents aren't even being given that option. By the time these kids come to the attention of the Council they have already experimented with their awakened powers, usually going down the dark side because they have no idea of the danger they are putting themselves in or others. Molly is a prime example of that, she was trying to help not harm her friends. By that time most are too far gone and the only thing to do with them is to give them the chop. Not saying it would be easy, but there has got to be a better way. That is what Harry was saying, that part of the problem is most experienced wizards won't take the trouble to take on an apprentice before they take that wrong road. How many wizard characters in the whole series has even mentioned having an apprentice? I'm not talking taking on a troubled kid under the Doom either, just an apprentice. Oh when Harry shows up at a Council meeting there are some sitting around in brown robes, but not all that many.
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... Not saying it would be easy, but there has got to be a better way ...
Agreed! But I think that "better way" remains to be created. I don't think the White Council knows how to do it. I think mostly they're too hidebound to even think to want to.
There's another problem, too: finding/identifying these proto-wizards. Harry didn't notice Molly's talent, developing in his own (relative) back yard. I think there's no real way to detect proto-wizards, in general. The Sight might reveal them, I suppose; and of course physical, skin-on-skin contact. Hardly practical, either one!
Over in another thread, this same idea has come up. The most-obvious solution seems to be to use the Paranet. They are MUCH more widespread, MANY more eyes on the problem & boots on the ground. They doubtless include professional educators, too. Of course, the White Council considers them essentially non-entities (other than an occasional source of warlocks). But Harry knows better.
... Oh when Harry shows up at a Council meeting there are some sitting around in brown robes, but not all that many.
That could simply be a matter of statistics, of demographics. If any group of humans had a lifespan of 200+ years, the population would skew HARD to the older cohorts, with just a very few youngsters relative to the adults. It could also be the aforementioned problem with finding the damned kids before they've gone sithmode, and their apprenticeship would come with a Damocles warranty...
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Or like with a lot of other things the Council has let slide over the last couple of centuries.
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... over the last couple of centuries since time immemorial, probably since being founded.
Fixed it for ya!
;-)
Seriously, I don't think the DV canon has ever showed us that the Council has ever had such an ID/educate initiative in place. Oldsters tend to lean on traditional ways awfully hard, so master-to-apprentice, and it's nobody else's business whether anyone takes apprentices or not.
The "Warden Boot-Camp" was a desperation-measure; but it may have planted a seed, at least...
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Fixed it for ya!
;-)
Seriously, I don't think the DV canon has ever showed us that the Council has ever had such an ID/educate initiative in place. Oldsters tend to lean on traditional ways awfully hard, so master-to-apprentice, and it's nobody else's business whether anyone takes apprentices or not.
The "Warden Boot-Camp" was a desperation-measure; but it may have planted a seed, at least...
Yes, they have, remember "The Sorcerer's Apprentice"? That story is older and more widespread than the segment of "Fantasia" that features Micky Mouse. Wizards have always taken on an apprentice, that is part of the gig of being a wizard, times have changed though, and like with a lot of things the wizards of the Council have failed to change with them.
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Another thing to consider is time. It seems to me that if you soul gaze someone who's 20 years old, and see that they're idealistic, optimistic and has lots of potential, decide to trust them, you can't fall back on that assessment 10 years later. People change all the time, and you can't gaze them again. You still have a very clear memory of the first gaze, even if they are a completely different person at 30. (which is very likely), so if someone else gazed them and found a dark and cynical soul, you'd unlikely to belive them.
I think it needs a rework in a future book.
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Another thing to consider is time. It seems to me that if you soul gaze someone who's 20 years old, and see that they're idealistic, optimistic and has lots of potential, decide to trust them, you can't fall back on that assessment 10 years later. People change all the time, and you can't gaze them again. You still have a very clear memory of the first gaze, even if they are a completely different person at 30. (which is very likely), so if someone else gazed them and found a dark and cynical soul, you'd unlikely to belive them.
I think it needs a rework in a future book.
People do change especially the young, but that is why when Harry describes his soul gaze with sixteen year old Molly, he describes her possible futures, the trick is judging which future will be the most likely. Then one has to decide if intervention will help or not. Harry judged that Molly wasn't too far gone, though in reality given her slip ups that that was a very close call.. The Merlin on the other hand judged that the Korean Kid had gone too far down the tubes and his future was bad no matter what was attempted to redeem him.
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... Yes, they have, remember "The Sorcerer's Apprentice"? That story is older and more widespread than the segment of "Fantasia" that features Micky Mouse. Wizards have always taken on an apprentice, that is part of the gig of being a wizard...
I think a wizard often takes an apprentice, the same way people "often" are married: yes, it's more common than not; but non-Apprentice'd potential Masters are hardly more eye-raising than eligible singles.
But I am thinking the White Council needs a major educational-reform push; to step away from the master/apprentice model and towards the instructor/class model.
It can be group teaching with multiple instructors, but they need to teach more students than teachers, better than 1:1; I think 4 students per instructor is a good target, with a half-dozen or so instructors, and rotation so every student gets substantial time with every instructor, & vice versa.
But first, they need some way to find the damn proto-wizards (before they literally become "damned").
But before even that... the White Council needs to pull its head out of its ass and wake up to the need for these new ways. So... it's not gonna happen.
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I think a wizard often takes an apprentice, the same way people "often" are married: yes, it's more common than not; but non-Apprentice'd potential Masters are hardly more eye-raising than eligible singles.
"Happiness in marriage, my dear Eliza is merely a matter of chance.." Charlotte Lucas to Elizabeth Bennett, Jane Austin.. Oh and Elizabeth's retort was that her notion was not sound..
However I doubt that one can say the same about a master/apprentice relationship. It would be a foolish master that didn't soul gaze his or her charge before taking him or her on.
But I am thinking the White Council needs a major educational-reform push; to step away from the master/apprentice model and towards the instructor/class model.
Which is the direction I believe Jim is headed if the speculation/spoilers for the little Maggie spin offs are correct. As soon or shortly after her talent is discovered she is shipped off to a school like Hog Warts by her father.
But first, they need some way to find the damn proto-wizards (before they literally become "damned").
I think it could be done if most wizards weren't so self absorbed and secretive..
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The thing is, the world has what the White Council needs to find new wizards already, it's just that the WC is too snobbish/hidebound/stupid(take your pick, they all apply) to use it.
The Paranet is a nationwide(and growing) group of practitioners who were forced to organize precisely because of the WC's inability to police the magical world on the small scale.
All it needs is a few open minded wizards to make checks every 2-3 weeks, treat the lesser talents with some encouragement rather than intimidation and provide some financial backing for a centralized information center and you're good to go. The Paranet has become as big as it is, while being run by renegades such as Elaine and small talents the WC doesn't see as significant unless they go to the dark side. Imagine what it could be under the aegis of the WC.
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The thing is, the world has what the White Council needs to find new wizards already, it's just that the WC is too snobbish/hidebound/stupid(take your pick, they all apply) to use it.
The Paranet is a nationwide(and growing) group of practitioners who were forced to organize precisely because of the WC's inability to police the magical world on the small scale.
All it needs is a few open minded wizards to make checks every 2-3 weeks, treat the lesser talents with some encouragement rather than intimidation and provide some financial backing for a centralized information center and you're good to go. The Paranet has become as big as it is, while being run by renegades such as Elaine and small talents the WC doesn't see as significant unless they go to the dark side. Imagine what it could be under the aegis of the WC.
Yes, the Paranet could be a vital link in a number of ways, not just to identify kids with potential talent before they go bad, but also as a go between with their parents to educate them about the gift that has manifested itself in their child, the good and the dangers.