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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Con on January 05, 2022, 01:22:50 PM
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So it occurred to me around the time I got to Margaret le fey that you could just check the Dresden FIles timeline for most of these people.... but I'd already got that far down the list...
So in order of eldest to youngest:
Pre-Reality: Walkers: Behind, Before, Beside. (They had to be exiled from reality when reality was formed right?)
Pre-Planet: Uriel (Has been fighting wars since before this planet was gaseous)
Shagnasty (Naagloshii helped create the world before going evil)
Lash/Lasciel (Debatable but assuming she has all the memories and knowledge of Lasciel)
Anduriel(I have a WAG Theory he was the Original Uriel but assuming based on what we know)
Denarian Fallen Angels (Ursiel, Magog, Namshiel etc)
Demonreach (Made outside of time...)
Mother Winter (WOJ is she's been around since the Ice Ages)
Ferrovax (WOJ Dragons were used to create things like the Amazon River, massive geoshifts type which only really occurred after the Ice Age)
Ethniu? (She's a Titan could mean she was born when Titans rule the Earth could be later on)
Mother Summer (WOJ is their was one other Mother Summer before this one but she's still old as dirt... maybe even literally)
Vadderung (assuming he's the original Woden/Odin)
Hades (Tricky but Hades is rarely in Primordial myths and was a son of the Titans so)
River in his Shoulders? (Actually what started this idea for me. Theories range from 6000 years to 1000 years ago. Depending on when he 'crossed the ice')
Red King (4000 years old)
Arinna Ortega (Before written Language)
Nicodemus (2000 years ago)
Polonius Latessa (Was a temple prostitute according to the Archive)
Diedre (Tessa 'invested' 2000 years)
Lord Raith (WOJ he's a couple thousand years old '2 thousand years of paranoia' built up)
Quintus Cassius 'snakeboy' (Corrected by KsG. Latin name probably Latin Rome)
Genowska
Eldest Gruff (I like to think he tutored Titania as the wise old tutor to current monarch trope)
Mab/Titania (William the Conqeuror/Arthurian myths were 5th century to 9th)
Sigrun Gard (Old Norse 'Geats' 6th century to 14th)
Erlking (Herne was shakespeare. Erlkoenig was 1800s poem. Give him the benefit of the doubt make him 1000 given the amount of respect he gets.)
Vlad Drakul (someone wanna do the 666 maths for me?)
Rashid (Fought the evil Arab Wizard. 700s ad.)
Dracula
Bob (Medieval France Etienne the Enchanter picked him up)
Mavra (600 years old)
Duke Ortega (conquistador)
Ancient Mai (400 years old)
Langtry/Ebenezar/LtW (WOJ they were young men on various sides of the 7 years war. Same age. Give or take a decade)
Corpsetaker (Apparently Harry says she was White Council around this time as well. Credit to newbie fillmoreb)
la Fortier (Senior Council)
Maeve/Aurora (One lady each before they assumed the thrones.17th century composer)
Lara Raith (Been around for a few centuries, knew Luccio when she was young spent the 19th century in Japan)
Simon Petrovitch (He had considerable influence during WW1/Russian Revolution)
Luccio (1800 or so. WOJ is she was a child during War of 1812)
Rasmussen (Ursiels host Since 1849 *dead now*)
Kemmler (Had a century to plan WW1)
Grevane (Appeared in Luccio short story)
Bjorn (*Shrug* one of the few Veteran Wardens around. I like to think he's been around for awhile.)
Donald Morgan (Fought in WW1 against Kemmler)
Margaret le Fey
Justin DuMorne (Picked up Bob at Kemmlers defeat. Pietrovich's apprentice. Some implications he was his apprentice during WW1)
Michael Carpenter (Vietnam Vet)
Marcone
Thomas
Murphy
Harry
Butters
Susan
Mister
Molly
Mouse
Maggie
Feel free to correct, add or discuss.
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Pop Bob in there. He's at least 600 years old. I'd put him near Mavra and Drakul.
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Pop Bob in there. He's at least 600 years old. I'd put him near Mavra and Drakul.
Good Point. Added.
And Welcome to the site :)
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Thanks, been lurking for too long. Decided to try to be a bit more active. If you want to be really pedantic about it, you can pop Sue in either before or after Demonreach. She roamed the earth about 67 million years ago. :D
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Thanks, been lurking for too long. Decided to try to be a bit more active. If you want to be really pedantic about it, you can pop Sue in either before or after Demonreach. She roamed the earth about 67 million years ago. :D
Haha I think I'll stick to Sentient Character beings for now.
and added Mother Summer as well.
8:14 pm: added Lord Raith and Lara Raith.
8:17 pm: added Sigrun Gard
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Corpsetaker is a bit older than you have her in the chronology. In Ghost Story, Harry mentions that she was a member of the White Council before the French and Indian War. (Right near the start of chapter 41)
That would put her birth at around 1700 or earlier. Depending on how long before the war she was a member, and for how long she was a member, that would place her either before or after Ancient Mai.
Sorry for the piecemeal replies. I'm being slow to think of things.
Edit: Could be even earlier, if she wasn't being hyperbolic when she told Molly that "[she had been] crushing minds like yours centuries before your great-grandfather's grandfather left the Old Country." Someone that age would have left the Old Country around 1800, and centuries (plural) before that would be 1600 or earlier.
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Corpsetaker is a bit older than you have her in the chronology. In Ghost Story, Harry mentions that she was a member of the White Council before the French and Indian War. (Right near the start of chapter 41)
That would put her birth at around 1700 or earlier. Depending on how long before the war she was a member, and for how long she was a member, that would place her either before or after Ancient Mai.
Sorry for the piecemeal replies. I'm being slow to think of things.
Edit: Could be even earlier, if she wasn't being hyperbolic when she told Molly that "[she had been] crushing minds like yours centuries before your great-grandfather's grandfather left the Old Country." Someone that age would have left the Old Country around 1800, and centuries (plural) before that would be 1600 or earlier.
huh nice pull added to just under 7 years war cause I think I vaguely remember WOJ saying Corpsetaker as a character in his story around that time, now that you mention it.
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Redcap would date from around 1300, his first appearance in folklore is as the familiar of William de Soulis, a historical character executed in 1320. Place him before Mavra and after Rashid.
Note Redcaps haunt ruined castles, so Harry had better get his repairs done sharpish if he doesn’t want an uninvited house guest.
Remember a lot of beings are born out of the Never Never because of people’s belief in them (see the Baku in Day One), so for some characters it should be possible to pin their existence from the date they first appear in folklore, or even urban legend if such a date can be determined.
Then there is Mister, definitely sentient given he has had his own POV story and is about 18 by the time of Christmas Eve the furthest current point in the Dresdenverse. He was 3 years old by Storm Front.
And Mouse, again we have had a POV for him and he would have been born a couple of months before Blood Rites, but you may have to figure in dog years. That also gives you My Shadow.
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I've always assumed Redcap was like the Eldest. I'm avoiding using the word mantle. More just title of the biggest and baddest. He's pretty proficient in firearms. I mean so is kincaid but it's rare among the golden oldies.
Edited to add Erlking I was holding off for reasons given.
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Cassius is much older, especially as his full name was Quintus Cassius. That suggests he could have been born at least 1500 years ago. It was the guy that Harry saw crucified when he soulgazed Ursiel who was headed for the California gold rush when he became a denarian. That's the old west connection you're think of.
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Cassius is much older, especially as his full name was Quintus Cassius. That suggests he could have been born at least 1500 years ago. It was the guy that Harry saw crucified when he soulgazed Ursiel who was headed for the California gold rush when he became a denarian. That's the old west connection you're think of.
Ooooh yeah you're right. I was thinking Quintus Cassius was a pretentious name for the Old West, but I just figured He was a pretentious douche who either chose his own name or was in a family of venatores with minor talent who became a Denarian.
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Per WOJ, Angels and many of the Gods of the various religions existed prior to reality. So, the Titans of Greek Mythology, Odin, Ymir, Enki, Ra, Amun, Ptah, Gaia, Oranous, Phanes, Pontus, The Yellow Emperor of the Celestial Bureaucracy, Izanagi and Izanami, etc. Anyone involved in the a Creation myth. Perhaps more. The idea being that all of them remember Creation a bit differently and so have wildly different versions, yet all are the same story.
I think we can safely assume, given the nature of Outsiders and the familiarity of Outsiders with such powerful beings as Angels and Gods, that the Outsiders and presumably the Old Ones also pre-date Creation. In a sense, it's almost a given that the Outsiders "pre-date" reality given that from their perspective, all time would be happening all at once. Outside of time, reality would be a closed circle. Beginning and end are not really sensible terms from that perspective. To them, it's all happening all at once. Which means, wherever they enter isn't quite as important as when they enter.
So to summarise: The Creator, the Angels, some of the Gods and presumably some demons (depending on your legend), and the Outsiders and the Old Ones all pre-date Creation of Reality.
So Uriel and the Walkers are all as old as each other, at least from the Universe's perspective. From their own perspective that's a far more difficult question.
Odin, and potentially the Mothers (or whatever being(s) the Queen of Faerie are from), perhaps Hades and Ethniu (although neither were involved in Creation myths, it doesn't necessarily count them out), Laciel, Anduriel, Namshiel (and all other Denarians we have met), and all the Angels - all pre-date Reality.
Demonreach wasn't made "outside" of time, just across multiple times (and likely multiple dimensions and universes). So he at most it as old as there were people...which isn't that old really.
Ferrovax is an interesting one. Dragons supposedly were in charge of making sure things were happening the way they should, and did things like move rivers around (or start them). Serious things. Ferro could well be older than any form of life on the planet, potentially. Very hard to pinpoint. But Ethniu seemed to imply he was younger. And both were implied to be younger than Vadderung.
Drakul is almost certainly older than humanity, considering the Black Court have been around "since the dawn of humankind" or something like that. The being itself could be a lot older.
I think Lord Raith is older than Nicodemus, but I could be wrong. I seem to remember reading something about that.
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Per WOJ, Angels and many of the Gods of the various religions existed prior to reality. So, the Titans of Greek Mythology, Odin, Ymir, Enki, Ra, Amun, Ptah, Gaia, Oranous, Phanes, Pontus, The Yellow Emperor of the Celestial Bureaucracy, Izanagi and Izanami, etc. Anyone involved in the a Creation myth. Perhaps more. The idea being that all of them remember Creation a bit differently and so have wildly different versions, yet all are the same story.
Fair enough that WOJ did occur to me at some point, but I was doing things as linearly as possible as for Creation several billion years before the world coalesced into a planet, let alone life, let alone dinosaurs. Let alone the humans whom the Gods needed for worship. So if said Gods were their for Creation, they would still need to be somehow present for humans. Humans are for the most part linear, so as Humans understood them this was as linear as I could make them.
I think we can safely assume, given the nature of Outsiders and the familiarity of Outsiders with such powerful beings as Angels and Gods, that the Outsiders and presumably the Old Ones also pre-date Creation. In a sense, it's almost a given that the Outsiders "pre-date" reality given that from their perspective, all time would be happening all at once. Outside of time, reality would be a closed circle. Beginning and end are not really sensible terms from that perspective. To them, it's all happening all at once. Which means, wherever they enter isn't quite as important as when they enter.
Right which also suggests time as a factor as measurable by one moment to the next. Rashid says most of the time the Outer Gates could be quite peaceful, and other things like 'most years it wouldn't matter. Admittedly he also says 'Always in danger'. All of those are still time measurements. I'm not disagreeing with you exactly just offering another perspective. Human linear as it is.
So to summarise: The Creator, the Angels, some of the Gods and presumably some demons (depending on your legend), and the Outsiders and the Old Ones all pre-date Creation of Reality.
Said demons would seem to have been confirmed by Thomas and the nature of the Oblivion War. Which again depends on Human knowledge or memory of them within a certain time frame of soceity.
So Uriel and the Walkers are all as old as each other, at least from the Universe's perspective. From their own perspective that's a far more difficult question.
Odin, and potentially the Mothers (or whatever being(s) the Queen of Faerie are from), perhaps Hades and Ethniu (although neither were involved in Creation myths, it doesn't necessarily count them out), Laciel, Anduriel, Namshiel (and all other Denarians we have met), and all the Angels - all pre-date Reality.
Odin probably. Ethniu I'm not convinced. Hades-I just don't see him being at Creation. My best guess is Underworld was created to imprison Titans, Demons, Old Gods. (Although Greek Myths that was more Tartarus who himself was a bit more Primordial/Titan/Personification). Then they gave the most Responsible Gods or Exiled the most Scarey ones as Keepers of the Underworld when they needed a place for human souls to go.
Fair enough but at what point did Lucifer and Denarians rebel. Seems to me once Humans were created and given Free Will. Lucifer didn't like the new adopted step children, or wanted Free Will. Denarians similar.
Demonreach wasn't made "outside" of time, just across multiple times (and likely multiple dimensions and universes). So he at most it as old as there were people...which isn't that old really.
'As old as there were people'. Is partially my argument all these beings needed people to anchor them somehow, maybe not give them life, but give them a framework of some kind. Time included.
Ferrovax is an interesting one. Dragons supposedly were in charge of making sure things were happening the way they should, and did things like move rivers around (or start them). Serious things. Ferro could well be older than any form of life on the planet, potentially. Very hard to pinpoint. But Ethniu seemed to imply he was younger. And both were implied to be younger than Vadderung.
Dragons seem to have been created to enact direct physical change on the planet and reality. I can see why that offended or pissed off all of the Gods who were constrained or couldn't act as directly at the time.
Drakul is almost certainly older than humanity, considering the Black Court have been around "since the dawn of humankind" or something like that. The being itself could be a lot older.
Conflicting sources about origin of Black Court. Drakul seemed to have preferred Nicodemus's method of a handful of effective subordinates. Dracula turned them into a Plague. My WAG is the Black Plague helped launched by the Denarians was a zombie apocalypse of Black Court. 666 also seems to indicate confluence of events time being one of them.
I think Lord Raith is older than Nicodemus, but I could be wrong. I seem to remember reading something about that.
Etruscans were 900s BC till Roman Kingdom became Roman Republic in 500s BC, but a few things. 1. WOJ said 2000 not closer to 3000. 2. WOJ recently is he hasn't thought too much about the origins of the White Court so Etruscans as a measurement may not be feasible. 3. Possible White Court did it as a petty cats paw against everyone using Latin.
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I've always assumed Redcap was like the Eldest. I'm avoiding using the word mantle. More just title of the biggest and baddest. He's pretty proficient in firearms. I mean so is kincaid but it's rare among the golden oldies.
Yes but remember the Faerie Courts themselves are fairly recent innovations. They would have been populated by existing Fae beings, but also would have attracted newcomers. He may have started off something like Toot, but was reborn as the Redcap when DeSoulis impressed him as a familiar and this led him to become a totally different thing, the Redcap, the first of his kind.
WOJ has it that some powerful Fae do indeed come into being like this. Toot’s growth may mean that this process is happening to him. Is Toots future as a full grown Fae brandishing a bloody pizza cutter as The Deep Pan?
We know through Ace that the Redcap can reproduce with mortals and the resultant changelings would themselves be Redcaps should they choose Fae, but we haven’t seen any and he is referred to as The Redcap, denoting he is singular. Poor parenting perhaps if Ace is an example, none survived. This might suggest a relatively recent singular origin.
Interestingly De Soulis is a perfect candidate for a past Winter Knight, suggesting a parallel with Harry and Toot.
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We know through Ace that the Redcap can reproduce with mortals and the resultant changelings would themselves be Redcaps should they choose Fae, but we haven’t seen any and he is referred to as The Redcap, denoting he is singular. Poor parenting perhaps if Ace is an example, none survived. This might suggest a relatively recent singular origin.
Personally, I never thought of Redcap as a separate species of Fae. I believe the Redcap is just a fairly high ranking Sidhe, and his changeling offspring would just become a standard Sidhe. I view the whole Redcap thing as an affectation of his. He dips his hat in blood to terrify people, and goes by the name Redcap. I know this doesn't jive with the real world mythology of Redcaps, but I think Jim just took some poetic license on that.
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Personally, I never thought of Redcap as a separate species of Fae. I believe the Redcap is just a fairly high ranking Sidhe, and his changeling offspring would just become a standard Sidhe. I view the whole Redcap thing as an affectation of his. He dips his hat in blood to terrify people, and goes by the name Redcap. I know this doesn't jive with the real world mythology of Redcaps, but I think Jim just took some poetic license on that.
Actually it does, the Dutch Redcaps have a different origin story, but like the Leansidhe and Jenny Greenteeth and most of the Winter Court this Redcap is likely to hail from Ireland, Scotland and Northern England.
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Maeve's/Sarissa's father was an Austrian composer in the 17th-18th centuries, per WOJ. Mab's got a thing for musicians, seems.
Rashid slew the Mad Arab, pre 800AD.
He's older, objective time.
I believe you can roughly sketch out handovers of the Outer Gate guardianship. 0AD- Greek Pantheon to Norse Pantheon. 1000 AD, Norse Pantheon to up-powered Fae. 1000 BC- I suspect Dragons to the Greeks. Or perhaps Titans to the Greeks.
Unless it's matter of the 666 year cycle.
Also, Gard referred to her father as "the Geat"- Beowulf. She's 600-700AD for birth. Thought: Beowulf as a Starborn?
River- they crossed the ice to flee Beowulf and his people seeking vengeance for Grendel. Post 600AD.
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All the Fae love human music. Except Polka.
Didn’t Vadderung admit he was also Beowulf? Odin killed a dragon, and St Nicholas/Kringle banished dragons, no wonder Ferrovax and he have staring matches, and this is one reason why I think Michael is a candidate for the Kringle Mantle when Odin dies at Ragnarok, as another dragonslayer. I have a whole conspiracy theory on that and other points why I think that is going to happen)
River is older, he walked to North America from Russia during the last ice age when he was a child, suggesting the Bigfeet predate human settlement of North America. The Bering Ice Bridge i thought to have occurred 20,000 years ago. River is having his midlife crisis now with his son so that posits a lifespan of at least 40,000 years , so as a child he could have been about 5,000 years old at the point, so he could be 25,000 years old. They probably were fleeing man, rather than a Man.
Grendel would be a relative cast out from the migration who survived to more modern times.
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This may sound sound petty because of all the work you have done, but Murphy was older than Harry
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Maeve's/Sarissa's father was an Austrian composer in the 17th-18th centuries, per WOJ. Mab's got a thing for musicians, seems.
Corrected thanks. Can't believe I forgot about that.
Rashid slew the Mad Arab, pre 800AD.
He's older, objective time.
Ah true I had him at the Crusades.
I believe you can roughly sketch out handovers of the Outer Gate guardianship. 0AD- Greek Pantheon to Norse Pantheon. 1000 AD, Norse Pantheon to up-powered Fae. 1000 BC- I suspect Dragons to the Greeks. Or perhaps Titans to the Greeks.
Unless it's matter of the 666 year cycle.
Agreed. :)
Also, Gard referred to her father as "the Geat"- Beowulf. She's 600-700AD for birth. Thought: Beowulf as a Starborn?
Actually she denied that, jokingly referring to him as saying. 'He does like us to call him "Daddy"
River- they crossed the ice to flee Beowulf and his people seeking vengeance for Grendel. Post 600AD.
See the problem? Different theories from the same information.
River is older, he walked to North America from Russia during the last ice age when he was a child, suggesting the Bigfeet predate human settlement of North America. The Bering Ice Bridge i thought to have occurred 20,000 years ago. River is having his midlife crisis now with his son so that posits a lifespan of at least 40,000 years , so as a child he could have been about 5,000 years old at the point, so he could be 25,000 years old. They probably were fleeing man, rather than a Man.
Grendel would be a relative cast out from the migration who survived to more modern times.
All the Fae love human music. Except Polka.
Didn’t Vadderung admit he was also Beowulf? Odin killed a dragon, and St Nicholas/Kringle banished dragons, no wonder Ferrovax and he have staring matches, and this is one reason why I think Michael is a candidate for the Kringle Mantle when Odin dies at Ragnarok, as another dragonslayer. I have a whole conspiracy theory on that and other points why I think that is going to happen)
Nice. What's the theory?
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I think all the Denarians are pre-planet. The Fall was before such. If the Dragons were meant to help shape - well, they'd be made before the planet, assuming a Creation myth type formation, or could even have been slightly after the ball starts to form if be are in Big Bang style. No need for them until the crust starts to form.
Demonreach would have been after planet formation. The genius Loci from that time, but possibly magically enhanced to sentience later
If Mab the individual now in the mantle rode with the Conqueror - it's under a thousand years from Hastings. The mantle is older. The former mortal is not.
I don't think Rashid is older than Mai. I think he may have timeskipped to fight the Mad Arab. I'd say more like 250-300. Slightly less than the Merlin.
Molly is in her late 20s/early 30s. Older than Mister. IIRC Jim said "ordinary cat" He'd be dead by now at that age.
Maggie is likely slightly older than Mouse. Probably conceived during Death Masks. Maybe a year.
Add Ivy as older than Maggie, younger than Mister? Early/mid teens?
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Mister is 18 as at Christmas Eve, yeah “just a cat” I have an entire conspiracy theory that he is a Malk Changeling who is currently deciding to be “Just a cat”, planted as a spy by Lea.
The Conspiracy theory on Michael inheriting the Kringle Mantle really firmed up over Christmas Eve/The good People where the Winter Lady says Michael taught her how to do Christmas right. He does the same with the Winter Knight.
In addition he has Uriel in common with Vadderung, they do lunch once a year, I suspect the 6 December, St Nicholas day.
Vadderung as Odin and Beowulf is a Dragonslayer, St Nicholas is reported to have banished a dragon as a miracle. The only other known Dragonslayer in the Dresdenverse is Michael.
Michael as a warrior could acceptably lead the Wild Hunt (see how Winter lionised Butters in the Good People).
He (together with Father Forthill) is as close to a living saint we have seen in the Dresdenverse.
As a knight he dressed in a white and red cloak.
The congruency between the Kringle Mantle and Michael is actually greater than that between Molly and Winter Lady Mantle, and Mab had been setting her up for years as a candidate for that Mantle, as I suspect has Mab and Uriel for Michael, it’s why he is being kept safe by both angels and Fae. Mab wouldn’t allow Winter resources to be used to protect the mortal father of the Winter Lady without expecting something out of it, just like Lea helping Molly.
Michael is often described as a tall imposing figure over 6 feet tall and broad with a salt and pepper beard. Physical characteristics he shares with Kringle.
Michael has previously hosted the grace of an Archangel, a Mantle wouldn’t be a problem.
Kringle is the closest to a Father Figure that exists in Mab’s Court, he is the current Winter Lady’s actual father.
Odin is destined to die at Ragnarok, but whilst Harry May inherit some of Odin power and position, I think Michael will get Kringle.
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Fair enough that WOJ did occur to me at some point, but I was doing things as linearly as possible as for Creation several billion years before the world coalesced into a planet, let alone life, let alone dinosaurs. Let alone the humans whom the Gods needed for worship. So if said Gods were their for Creation, they would still need to be somehow present for humans. Humans are for the most part linear, so as Humans understood them this was as linear as I could make them.
Fair enough, I get you had to work with your measuring system. "Before" isn't a very precise measurement, despite the accuracy of it. I don't know that the gods "needed" mortal worship though, because humans are incredibly new compared to the universe. My guess is that they just really like the options worship gave them i.e. being able to change. Probably better to think of it less about when the being "first" existed and more of a first contact situation e.g. the being that became known as Zeus first appears to mortals (10 000 B.C.).
Right which also suggests time as a factor as measurable by one moment to the next. Rashid says most of the time the Outer Gates could be quite peaceful, and other things like 'most years it wouldn't matter. Admittedly he also says 'Always in danger'. All of those are still time measurements. I'm not disagreeing with you exactly just offering another perspective. Human linear as it is
It certainly is to mortals, which is important. As above, it's less of when those beings are "born" (the term might not apply to some beings, as in a sense they may have always existed) but more of when they first appear to mortals, or first attack the universe they happen to be invading etc.
Said demons would seem to have been confirmed by Thomas and the nature of the Oblivion War. Which again depends on Human knowledge or memory of them within a certain time frame of soceity.
Absolutely, although I got the impression not all of those demons were tied to any mythology per se, some being so old and terrible that humanity doesn't even remember them (due to Oblivion War). But there are other demons and monsters that humanity does remember associated with Creation myths like Ymir in Norse mythology or Tiamat in Babylonian/Summerian mythology. And they were very scary beings, and definitely would be like those other gods that pre-date Creation.
Odin probably. Ethniu I'm not convinced. Hades-I just don't see him being at Creation. My best guess is Underworld was created to imprison Titans, Demons, Old Gods. (Although Greek Myths that was more Tartarus who himself was a bit more Primordial/Titan/Personification). Then they gave the most Responsible Gods or Exiled the most Scarey ones as Keepers of the Underworld when they needed a place for human souls to go.
Ethniu is an order of magnitude above Mab, which was how Harry once described the Mothers. Not that I necessarily rate them at the same level (although Ethniu was angry when she saw Mother Winter's walking stick and called it an "adult's tool"). Ethniu's familiarity with Angels and Odin also suggest she is one of those older beings...but I understand your hesitancy. My guess, she is "younger" than some but older than others. By which I mean, how do you define who is older if both beings exist before the invention of cause and effect, of before and after?
Fair enough but at what point did Lucifer and Denarians rebel. Seems to me once Humans were created and given Free Will. Lucifer didn't like the new adopted step children, or wanted Free Will. Denarians similar.
Not entirely sure, but Jim's answer about why the universe changed so much and how it affected the gods memories of things seems to imply he rebelled early on. As in, not long after Creation. I always assumed that is would be to do with humans myself, and perhaps it was, but technically he first rebels in the bible because he wants God's throne. Nothing to do with humans. It's a far newer idea that Lucifer resented humanity. Supernatural (the TV show) went with that idea, the one your talking about. But it isn't necessarily true to the original story, and Jim seems to be suggesting it was much earlier than humanity being around. My guess now is the argument might be less about Free Will, and far more about determinism and things like cause and effect. Maybe he misses the chaos of before Creation, then again he apparently does want Creation to be around. Maybe he just doesn't want to be ruled by TWG. That's fairly simple, if you ask me.
'As old as there were people'. Is partially my argument all these beings needed people to anchor them somehow, maybe not give them life, but give them a framework of some kind. Time included.
You've lost me a bit here. Are you saying that before people these beings like gods etc were not bound as much by time and such things? Because I think time came around as soon as the universe got done being made. Unless you're suggesting that Creation only happened right before mortal came around, and the universe is only 10,000 years old? Because I think Sue might argue with that.
Dragons seem to have been created to enact direct physical change on the planet and reality. I can see why that offended or pissed off all of the Gods who were constrained or couldn't act as directly at the time.
They do seem to be servitors more than anything. Guardians, managers, but also builders. I think Dragons were just as limited, power has purpose after all. That being said...who said the gods were unable to act directly. All those myths in ancient times. It's only recently they backed off I think, by which I think Hastings probably had something to do with it, or perhaps a bit earlier.
Conflicting sources about origin of Black Court. Drakul seemed to have preferred Nicodemus's method of a handful of effective subordinates. Dracula turned them into a Plague. My WAG is the Black Plague helped launched by the Denarians was a zombie apocalypse of Black Court. 666 also seems to indicate confluence of events time being one of them.
Ah yes, but Jim has seemingly (if a bit messily) fixed the conflict. I like the theory about the Black Plague. Yes, I think it's no accident Nicodemus and Drakul operate similarly. I think they are both big players in this cycle, and have been playing for a long while (although Drakul a lot longer). If you've ever read "A Night in the Lonesome October by Roger Zelazny (one of Jim's favourite authors), you can see Drakul's inspiration, and some inspiration for the Cycle. Although, fair warning it probably will spoil some things. Real question is why the Dracula and Nicodemus would work together? Drakul I suspect wouldn't necessarily be friends with him. Dracula perhaps made his own deal with the devil. But Drakul himself is very much old as humans, and the being that got trapped is almost certainly older than people. It's some sort of spirit whether it's a dragon or demon or whatever.
Etruscans were 900s BC till Roman Kingdom became Roman Republic in 500s BC, but a few things. 1. WOJ said 2000 not closer to 3000. 2. WOJ recently is he hasn't thought too much about the origins of the White Court so Etruscans as a measurement may not be feasible. 3. Possible White Court did it as a petty cats paw against everyone using Latin.
Yeah I saw that WOJ. It seems he never thought too much about it and therefore has made a bit of a problem for himself. I wish he would have a good think and come up with something better. But I seem to remember an old WOJ about Lord Raith being actually older than Nicodemus, however that was possible. But I can't find it offhand, so for now we have to take it as he isn't that old. Does everyone use Latin? Just thought it was the White Council? I think Jim put it in to make them mysterious but not much more than that.
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Don’t Ghouls use Ancient Sumerian?
We have seen that characters may have had many names and histories, we have been told Dracula and Dracula are actually older and are several ancient monsters.
The Etruscan language for the White Court May be valid depending on what they were BEFORE they were the White Court, and Etruscan was the language adopted as that of the hosts of the oldest living members, the heads of the three families. White Court grow up among mortals before their hunger becomes dominant, if so they may scions of for example Etruscan deities, basically Greco-Roman deities under another name.
Notably there is a minor Etruscan deity called Rath, associated with the Etruscan version of Apollo. What if that is Lord Raith, a child or grandchild of Apollo, with a mortal, not a god or even an immortal, but born with the first Hunger? All other White Court Vampires would descend from him, eventually creating other families as their interests diverged.
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Corrected thanks. Can't believe I forgot about that.Ah true I had him at the Crusades.
Agreed. :)
Actually she denied that, jokingly referring to him as saying. 'He does like us to call him "Daddy"
See the problem? Different theories from the same information.
Nice. What's the theory?
Possible to cross the pole north-south after the last ice age. Ice in Norway/Russia, ice in Canada.
River is explicit that they were fleeing the new warrior culture Odin started. That dates it post Ice Age. Could be done by magic furry beings. Food and the duration of the journey on the ice sheet is your major problem in terms of possibility.
Regarding Gard: In the Helot short story, she reveals herself as a Scion of the Geat. In the main series, she stipulates that "we"- the Valkyries- aren't all Odin's daughters, but he likes being called Daddy.
Possibly an error, possible some of them are Odin's daughters.
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Don’t Ghouls use Ancient Sumerian?
We have seen that characters may have had many names and histories, we have been told Dracula and Dracula are actually older and are several ancient monsters.
The Etruscan language for the White Court May be valid depending on what they were BEFORE they were the White Court, and Etruscan was the language adopted as that of the hosts of the oldest living members, the heads of the three families. White Court grow up among mortals before their hunger becomes dominant, if so they may scions of for example Etruscan deities, basically Greco-Roman deities under another name.
Notably there is a minor Etruscan deity called Rath, associated with the Etruscan version of Apollo. What if that is Lord Raith, a child or grandchild of Apollo, with a mortal, not a god or even an immortal, but born with the first Hunger? All other White Court Vampires would descend from him, eventually creating other families as their interests diverged.
Ghouls do use ancient Sumerian. But I don't get the question. Is anyone claiming otherwise?
Yes indeed, Drakul and Dracula and Odin and likely several others keep changing their identities (likely every Cycle based on what Eb said about Odin being called Vadderung "this time around"). I wonder who else has changed their identity since? But while many beings have multiple identities, only a few like Drakul and Odin seem to diminish themselves in order to have more influence in the game. Which is intriguing.
I really like your White Court origin theory. Sadly, Jim says he hasn't thought much about their origins so I don't know that it's as complex as that. I think he picked Raith because of the word Wraith, which means a ghostly apparition seen just before or after someone dies. I think it's a scary monster word he picked, nothing more to it. It seems he picked Etruscan because he wanted them to be old, but nothing more.
Here's something that the previous site manage and owner of these boards, the guy who built the RPG and also happens to be one of Jim's old friends said:
As I recall it when Jim was working on Semiautomagic (eventually renamed Storm Front), he was a fan of the Anita Blake novels, was playing Amber Diceless online via AmberMUSH (along with me), and so on. The lines of influence may trace more directly to that stuff than the World of Darkness. The White Court vampires, after all, are pretty closely modeled on a house of Chaos we both played in on AmberMUSH called Thanlis. Their blood was a little more silver than pale pink, and they could shapeshift like any Chaosian could, but every time the WCVs pop up in the novels I see shades of Bassor (Jim’s character) and Mitre (mine) all over ’em.
Which tells you how long Jim might have been thinking about the White Court. My guess is that the White Court are tied to Outsiders (like all the Vampires), specifically in their origins. No idea how though. Chaosians, after all, are similar to Outsiders in many odd respects.
For what it's worth, I think I like your origin better though. :)
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Jim lies.... sometimes i’m Not Going To Tell You Gives too much away.
He has researched it, I will bet he has.
Perhaps the first Whamp was created by a Nemesis infected descendent of Apollo, and it was Rath/Raith.
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He does lie, and maybe he lied when he said he hadn't given much thought to the origins of the White Court. I don't know.
I do know that he wasn't always as deep a researcher in the beginning of his series, but he may have improved over time. And he may well have done further research since White Night and may retroactively decide on their origins, almost certainly since being asked about it in the interview. Which is a round about way of saying even if when he first made the White Court he didn't have those origins, he may well come up with something very close to your theory. He has done such things several times now, so it will be interesting to see what he comes up with.
If that works for you, I think that's a good as theory as any. As I said, I like the Apollo connection. They suit the idea of the beautiful Sun deity, and maybe that's why the Sun doesn't affect them.
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Fair enough, I get you had to work with your measuring system. "Before" isn't a very precise measurement, despite the accuracy of it. I don't know that the gods "needed" mortal worship though, because humans are incredibly new compared to the universe. My guess is that they just really like the options worship gave them i.e. being able to change. Probably better to think of it less about when the being "first" existed and more of a first contact situation e.g. the being that became known as Zeus first appears to mortals (10 000 B.C.).
That would probably be Dyeus of the Proto-Indo-European mythology. More of a typical Primorial personification of sky. Less throwing around lightning defeating titans and monsters.
It certainly is to mortals, which is important. As above, it's less of when those beings are "born" (the term might not apply to some beings, as in a sense they may have always existed) but more of when they first appear to mortals, or first attack the universe they happen to be invading etc.
first appear to mortals is an interesting concept. It's obvious the Gods got some power or benefits from mortals worshipping them.
Absolutely, although I got the impression not all of those demons were tied to any mythology per se, some being so old and terrible that humanity doesn't even remember them (due to Oblivion War). But there are other demons and monsters that humanity does remember associated with Creation myths like Ymir in Norse mythology or Tiamat in Babylonian/Summerian mythology. And they were very scary beings, and definitely would be like those other gods that pre-date Creation.
Agreed. It fits with the Eldritch and Cthuhlu nature of Old Ones
Ethniu is an order of magnitude above Mab, which was how Harry once described the Mothers. Not that I necessarily rate them at the same level (although Ethniu was angry when she saw Mother Winter's walking stick and called it an "adult's tool"). Ethniu's familiarity with Angels and Odin also suggest she is one of those older beings...but I understand your hesitancy. My guess, she is "younger" than some but older than others. By which I mean, how do you define who is older if both beings exist before the invention of cause and effect, of before and after?
It might be less about time and more about maturity. Kids mature at different ages depending on their life experiences. Some people act younger then they really are some older. It's possible Ethniu being locked up for an extended period of time stunted her maturity.
Not entirely sure, but Jim's answer about why the universe changed so much and how it affected the gods memories of things seems to imply he rebelled early on. As in, not long after Creation. I always assumed that is would be to do with humans myself, and perhaps it was, but technically he first rebels in the bible because he wants God's throne. Nothing to do with humans. It's a far newer idea that Lucifer resented humanity. Supernatural (the TV show) went with that idea, the one your talking about. But it isn't necessarily true to the original story, and Jim seems to be suggesting it was much earlier than humanity being around. My guess now is the argument might be less about Free Will, and far more about determinism and things like cause and effect. Maybe he misses the chaos of before Creation, then again he apparently does want Creation to be around. Maybe he just doesn't want to be ruled by TWG. That's fairly simple, if you ask me.
Isn't there a WOJ Lucifer and God are just having one big argument over the nature of man? Which btw is a very Islamic take on Abrahamic religions iirc.
You've lost me a bit here. Are you saying that before people these beings like gods etc were not bound as much by time and such things? Because I think time came around as soon as the universe got done being made. Unless you're suggesting that Creation only happened right before mortal came around, and the universe is only 10,000 years old? Because I think Sue might argue with that.
I'm saying more the Primordial Gods and beings got some benefit from Mortal worship and understanding. My theory is that humans beliefs and association of Gods allowed them to create direct vessels such as bodies to interact with mortals and the world. Primordial and Creation Gods originally were just personifications of certain elements humans couldn't understand except through creative means. Take Dyeus who evolved into Zeus. Mortal beliefs gave them a framework for direct action of their power, even as it limited said power. Probably originally not a lot at first.
They do seem to be servitors more than anything. Guardians, managers, but also builders. I think Dragons were just as limited, power has purpose after all. That being said...who said the gods were unable to act directly. All those myths in ancient times. It's only recently they backed off I think, by which I think Hastings probably had something to do with it, or perhaps a bit earlier.
Ferrovax was limited in how he could help in Battle Ground because he was such a power his form would crack reality which would have just helped Ethniu. Odin became Vadderung and mortal so that he could continue acting directly in mortal affairs. Things like that suggest their power is limited outside of their purpose.
Ah yes, but Jim has seemingly (if a bit messily) fixed the conflict. I like the theory about the Black Plague. Yes, I think it's no accident Nicodemus and Drakul operate similarly. I think they are both big players in this cycle, and have been playing for a long while (although Drakul a lot longer). If you've ever read "A Night in the Lonesome October by Roger Zelazny (one of Jim's favourite authors), you can see Drakul's inspiration, and some inspiration for the Cycle. Although, fair warning it probably will spoil some things. Real question is why the Dracula and Nicodemus would work together? Drakul I suspect wouldn't necessarily be friends with him. Dracula perhaps made his own deal with the devil. But Drakul himself is very much old as humans, and the being that got trapped is almost certainly older than people. It's some sort of spirit whether it's a dragon or demon or whatever.
Dracula created Black Court as a teenage rebellion against Daddy Drakul. If Nicodemus was afrenemy rival he'd get a kick out of using his enemies son as a tool while preparing an apocalypse like the Black Plague/Court.
Yeah I saw that WOJ. It seems he never thought too much about it and therefore has made a bit of a problem for himself. I wish he would have a good think and come up with something better. But I seem to remember an old WOJ about Lord Raith being actually older than Nicodemus, however that was possible. But I can't find it offhand, so for now we have to take it as he isn't that old. Does everyone use Latin? Just thought it was the White Council? I think Jim put it in to make them mysterious but not much more than that.
Well at the time after Etrsucans were defeated Latin and Greek were the main 'civilised' languages for a thousand years or more. White Court using Etruscan throughout that time would be somewhat of a secret language code for their club.
@Conspiracy Theorist I like the idea of Michael becoming Santa, but I think his reward by God might curtail that. He has sincere belief that he will go to Heaven and be with his family for eternity.
As for Apollo being the father of the Raith Court. I would go with Dionysus or Pan or Dis one of the other Personifications of human emotions. Raith feed on the negative aspects of humanity and are repelled by the virtues.
Personally I like the idea that the Gaul's worshipped the Sun so much because Rome was ruled by Vampires, but thats a bit Iron Druid/alt universe for this particular Urban Fantasy series/timeline.
Hopefully we get some sort of answer or hint during 12 months.
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Michael doesn’t have to be Santa forever, Charity is a good bit younger than Michael and could live 2-3 decades longer than Michael. The Kringle Mantle would likely stay with Michael until the first Halloween following Charity’s death, unless Charity asks Michael to look over the Children/grandchildren for a bit. As Kringle his disabilities would be nullified.
Michael can transfer the Mantle and die peacefully of Old Age to get his reward in heaven with Charity. Perhaps he will transfer it to one of his Children, young Harry perhaps?
A real happy ending for Michael.