ParanetOnline
The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: HeWhoSucksAtWalking on December 04, 2021, 07:35:48 AM
-
Okay I just found Butcher last September And bought Fool Moon,Storm Front and Grave Peril. I've heard about them for years but never gave his series a fair shot . Then Death Masks hit and I was enthralled. Though I really really like the first 3 aswell. This intro had went on for far too long.
Okay down to business. In Battle Ground there were 7 BC elders. But only were 5 left including hentai guy ,twins ,mavra ,and Drakul. So after Wild Bill just shot one did they just dip out? It's been driving me crazy. Thank for you for anything you can shed upon this. Cheers
Don't forget to to put the actual topic in the subject heading, and welcome to the boards :) - Mod team.
-
Can't help you at the moment, but welcome! The series is a lot of fun.
-
You've got my attention. Now I'm curious
-
Welcome to the forum! ;D
-
Welcome...
*hides skeleton of the last Newbie*
As for Black Court Elders WOJ is Chandler will appear in Mirror Mirror. Theories are he'll have been turned by then.
-
Welcome...
*hides skeleton of the last Newbie*
As for Black Court Elders WOJ is Chandler will appear in Mirror Mirror. Theories are he'll have been turned by then.
I don't think so, I think Harry will rescue him, he will become an outcast like Harry and become his new best bud.
-
Welcome to the forum! :)
I don't remember it now, but the good guys did not incapacitate 2 of them?
-
Thank you all for the warm welcome. I completely forgot. I posted this months ago..
I do know that the one Wild Bill shot let out a scream that ripped the air and was pulled back by some unseen force ( listens to wind or Rive shoulders perhaps?; Or perhaps the other nameless BC elder.
-
Thank you all for the warm welcome. I completely forgot. I posted this months ago..
I do know that the one Wild Bill shot let out a scream that ripped the air and was pulled back by some unseen force ( listens to wind or Rive shoulders perhaps?; Or perhaps the other nameless BC elder.
They incapacitated one of the twins and one of the nameless BC elders . That leaves one accounted for.
-
Slightly off my own topic but do the BC have their own base of power? Hopefully Jim sticks with the classics and have them operate in EU, namely Romania or another country that spans the Carpathians. Can't wait to see all the Elders in their own demense of power.Black Court is the only Court without its own book to itself..The Whites had two : Blood Rites ( though Black Court were involved but not the major focus) and WK
Hell the Reds we're pretty given two books to themselves as well ( Grave Peril ; though the Reds weren't the only villains ) and Changes. Plus a few shorts and comics. Yes I know the War played a pivitol role in their spotlight ( duh,)
We need a book focusing strictly on the BC--- although if Jim were to introduce the Jade Court as possible allies or enemies with them then I wouldn't object.
Shiro did mention he fought members of both courts in Duels. MAYBE a connection there ( though even I doubt it)
-
I might be wrong, but who or what the "Black Court" is has never really been spelled out. In the beginning Harry called them that, then wasn't that changed to "the Circle" or something like that in later books? We know they are bad asses, but just who and with whom they are allied with, is mostly a mystery. Lots of guesses, but no one really knows
-
I might be wrong, but who or what the "Black Court" is has never really been spelled out. In the beginning Harry called them that, then wasn't that changed to "the Circle" or something like that in later books? We know they are bad asses, but just who and with whom they are allied with, is mostly a mystery. Lots of guesses, but no one really knows
well j calls Drakul something monstrous stuck in human form. Doubt he's strictly a vampire. Though. His son was the one
Who
Made the BC. Though I do find it intriguing that Drakul can make undead vampires even if maybe he,'s not one himself. I assume his son was the King 👑 of the BC. Will be interesting to hear to their backstory. And if Jim does a strictly BC book then Kincaid HAS to be involved since he might be something similar to his former boss himself. A scion of a human and something monstrous. Though to be fair we don't know if Drakul is really a scion.
-
The Jade Court are classic Chinese hopping vampires, breath or chi stealers meaning the Jampires have more in common with the Whampires (aside from both being fans of British rock bands).
Reds and Blacks both require blood and the life force suspended in that to feed, rather than take the life force direct.
My theory is Drakul is wearing a Starborn body, Kemmler was after something similar but was too early for Harry’s generation, Justin in this theory was waiting for Kemmler to return, Harry was to be the new body for Kemmler, and with a Starborn body Kemmler had the last piece of the jigsaw for a successful Darkhallow (which is why it nearly killed Cowl), it explains why Kemmler never did the Darkhallow when he could have used the power to crush the White Council, the only Starborn body around from previous generations was already occupied by Drakul, and I doubt even Kemmler fancied taking him on.
It may be that there is a physical limitation on a mortal absorbing too much power unless it is through a construct like a Mantle, or mother Winters Walking Stick, or they are a Starborn.
-
Slightly off my own topic but do the BC have their own base of power?
One of my favourite theories is that it *was* Tunguska, but Ebenezar decided to lend a hand to the Stokerlypse.
-
well j calls Drakul something monstrous stuck in human form. Doubt he's strictly a vampire. Though. His son was the one
Who
Made the BC. Though I do find it intriguing that Drakul can make undead vampires even if maybe he,'s not one himself. I assume his son was the King 👑 of the BC. Will be interesting to hear to their backstory. And if Jim does a strictly BC book then Kincaid HAS to be involved since he might be something similar to his former boss himself. A scion of a human and something monstrous. Though to be fair we don't know if Drakul is really a scion.
But I don't think anything was said about him being a member of the Black Council.. Again lots of talk about, but no substance as to whether or not it really exists.. Oh I think there is some kind of connection, or at least perhaps some of the factions have was looks like the same aims but that doesn't mean they are part of a group called the Black Council.
-
But I don't think anything was said about him being a member of the Black Council.. Again lots of talk about, but no substance as to whether or not it really exists.. Oh I think there is some kind of connection, or at least perhaps some of the factions have was looks like the same aims but that doesn't mean they are part of a group called the Black Council.
I believe you're confusing Black Council with Black Court. Black Court's a vampire court, Black Council is Harry's name for the alliance of individuals from several nations working to undermine everything. The post you quote was about Black Court, not Black Council.
The Jade Court are classic Chinese hopping vampires, breath or chi stealers meaning the Jampires have more in common with the Whampires (aside from both being fans of British rock bands).
Reds and Blacks both require blood and the life force suspended in that to feed, rather than take the life force direct.
My theory is Drakul is wearing a Starborn body, Kemmler was after something similar but was too early for Harry’s generation, Justin in this theory was waiting for Kemmler to return, Harry was to be the new body for Kemmler, and with a Starborn body Kemmler had the last piece of the jigsaw for a successful Darkhallow (which is why it nearly killed Cowl), it explains why Kemmler never did the Darkhallow when he could have used the power to crush the White Council, the only Starborn body around from previous generations was already occupied by Drakul, and I doubt even Kemmler fancied taking him on.
It may be that there is a physical limitation on a mortal absorbing too much power unless it is through a construct like a Mantle, or mother Winters Walking Stick, or they are a Starborn.
Agree on Drakul being in a Starborn body- I'd propose that the body unexpectedly put a bounds on his ability to manifest, like it was itself a miniature living Outer Gate, and that's why he's stuck.
Agree that Harry was intended as a Kemmler vessel, or a vessel for Justin doing a Corpsetaker. Talent needs to be developed to not wither, so Harry needed training regardless.
Disagree on Kemmler not having done a Darkhallow. I rather think he must have done at least a preliminary test-of-concept version, but it was limited for some reason- perhaps because he wasn't starborn. May have limited him to a certain "volume" of ghost consumption- the prize, I think, is to do one at Demonreach, which he would well understand.
Also disagree on available Starborn. I think Rashid is one. Mab and Titania might be. Hell, maybe that's part of the White King's secret and why he'll do deals with Outsiders. But Harry, with a powerful wizard talent and affinity for the more destructive aspects of it, is a prize of a starborn host.
I'm in agreement with Mira about Harry's father mattering, even if it's in a literary sense- in a "in the end what matters is that Harry is more Malcolm's son than Margaret's" story-sense. Everything sees his mother in everything he does- her power, her secrets, her talents, even her height- but what's inside isn't corrupt in the same way. Harry isn't a saint, but even the Temptress among the Fallen couldn't corrupt him. He's. . .excessively centered in himself. He's capable of doing evil he agrees to, and only when he agrees to it.
That's what I see, anyway, and I find it an interesting character to be the hero of the story. He's not necessarily nice, but he's . .independent. It's his choices. He's centered in that. Doesn't accept coercion.
-
There appears to be a power limitation (enforced by the White God) on manifesting in the mortal word, Mab and Titania represent the upper limit without receiving the negative attention of the White God and his/her champions (see Ethnui) a full blown god such as Hades can reside in his demesne in the Never Never, or set aside their godhood such as Odin and live in the mortal world, but not be a full god residing in the mortal world. I think Drakul tried to cheat, pouring a god level power into a Starborn body and got stuck. A Darkhallow would therefore be a restoration of his former status.
If so the question is why hasn’t Drakul done a Darkhallow yet ? He has everything he needs, the only answer can be timing. Kemmler may not have been interested in the Endgame, but Drakul is, and needs to be mortal Starborn until then. Perhaps for th3 immunity to the Outsiders it grants him?. I think Drakul’s ultimate aim may be to replace the White God and his Endgame Darkhallow will reap the entire Human Race running from Earth to Earth depowering the White God, Archangels and Angels and empowering himself at the same time and overcoming the Outsiders.The Outsiders opening the Outer Gates exposing all of reality would fit in with this, just what he did with Ethnui and the Fomor, using them for his own ends.
I think we are seeing a battle for all of reality with Harry’s Earth the lynchpin, the White God versus the Outsiders as per usual each cycle, but this time with Drakul and possibly Lucifer/the Black Council also pitching in to depose the White God and replace him/her. Lucifer as an Archangel already exists in all worlds per WOJ as regards Uriel the same being existing in all realities, he doesn’t need the Darkhallow, but appears to be looking for powerful allies, such as a god level Cowl. Drakul doesn’t and didn’t exist in all realities but raising to Archangel level or higher would be a step up from a mere god and explain the step down into a Starborn.
To recap Harry is not only facing the Outsiders, intent on destroying reality he is facing rivals to the White God in Lucifer and Drakul, dark Creator wannabes, destroying reality to replace it with their creation.
-
I believe you're confusing Black Council with Black Court. Black Court's a vampire court, Black Council is Harry's name for the alliance of individuals from several nations working to undermine everything. The post you quote was about Black Court, not Black Council.
Not confusing, merely misreading. As far as the Black Court goes, since unless killed they live forever why do they need any elders? They have a couple of leaders at the moment, Drakul and Mavra.
-
Mavra was the Drummer, she was the Ringo of the Elders, the least by a long chalk, she is at best middle management.
Drakul was on a recruitment drive, he needed magically talented new members for something even at the risk of losing existing elders. His exercise ended at best a draw, he got Wild Bill and Yoshi, but at the expense of at least two of his elders.
However Junior made the existing Elders and he annoyed Daddy making them. Does Drakul think he can do better? If so he comes out ahead swapping inferior Elders for his new model Blamp.
-
Yeah guys when I wrote BC I meant Black Court..sorry for the misunderstanding ..Though I wouldn't rule out any BC elders being involved in Black Council business. Like Mavra for instance.
-
Mavra was the recipient of a gift organised by Cowl and Kumori in Grave Peril from the Red Court. However in Dead Beat she was quite separate to Cowl in her pursuit of the Word.
If we take Cowl as the archetypal Black Council Member, then Mavra isn’t a Member BUT they appear to be interested in allying with the Black Court, as they did with the Red Court and maybe the Fomor.
It is clear Drakul is playing his own game and has near complete control over the Black Court, he is his own Starborn after all, he doesn’t need to make alliances with other groups to access their Starborn, but other groups are interested in allying with him.
If the Black Council were looking to ally with Drakul in Grave Peril, or turn Harry as Red Vampire then the Black Council likely didn’t have access to Listen at that stage. listen only came to the fore after Harry’s presumed death in Changes- deliberate on his part? The fewer Starborn the more valuable they become. listen’s bargaining position improved markedly after Harry’s death.
-
Here's another question.. It's said many times that the BC has beeen around since the dawn of human memory..So a couple Millenna? So which Court is the oldest? The Red Court have been around since pre history as was astableshed in Changes with the revealing of Duchess Arianna age and the Red Kings. The whites speak aform of Roman right? So they might be started around then..So which Court do you think is the oldest . We have no clue how old Drakul is so it's anyone's guess just how long that they have existed ; though it was his son that started the BC years later but that doesn't mean that they didn't have a older organization before Vlad went and rebelled and invented the Black Court..
Another thing ; it was obvious when Vlad changed a human into vampire 🦇 it was your typical traditional Undead Stoker Vamp. I wonder what happens if his Dad changes someone . Is it different? More like him? From all accounts of the lore ( well not the Dresden lore but the book is gospel according to everyone in the series)Vlad was a handsome non rotting undead. So maybe Daddy can ichange people into beings more like himself .
-
And by the way I still want find out about the two missing BC elders..Did Jim forget? We're they taken out in secrets? If anyone of you have time go reread chapters 11-13 in Battleground and tell me your thoughts.
-
Mavra was the Drummer, she was the Ringo of the Elders, the least by a long chalk,
I just love this shade throw.... the Ringo of the Elders.... LOL
(what do you call a drummer whose girlfriend broke up with him? Homeless.)
-
Well, human memory is basically the start of history - so we do not have anything putting the Blacks or Reds first, and Etruscan predates Latin - but is it a language the Whites picked up because they were in the area? Or did the locals pick up what the WHITES were talking, with the WC being the seed?
-
Well, human memory is basically the start of history - so we do not have anything putting the Blacks or Reds first, and Etruscan predates Latin - but is it a language the Whites picked up because they were in the area? Or did the locals pick up what the WHITES were talking, with the WC being the seed?
maybe Lara will go in on some .wC backstory when she's having public dinners and parties before,/if they get betrothed.
-
I just love this shade throw.... the Ringo of the Elders.... LOL
(what do you call a drummer whose girlfriend broke up with him? Homeless.)
If Jim doesn’t reference her as Ringo at their next meeting I will be severely disappointed, its something crying out for a Harry wisecrack.
-
I might be wrong, but who or what the "Black Court" is has never really been spelled out. In the beginning Harry called them that, then wasn't that changed to "the Circle" or something like that in later books? We know they are bad asses, but just who and with whom they are allied with, is mostly a mystery. Lots of guesses, but no one really knows
(edit - I see this point was already addressed, and I somehow missed it... My bad, apologies all; deleted.)
The nature and origin of the Blampire court is mostly kinda-sorta known. Probably. Maybe.
The wizards (or maybe "wizards and others") ... notsomuch.
The "Circle" crops up in White Knight (heh... crop circle!) between Vitto and Madrigal (who wants in), but interestingly we see nothing about any such organization in the later (more-informed) conversation between Vitto and Cowl; indeed we see instead that Madrigal is being substantially misled (about what, we do not know, but -- Cowl:"And the fool with you?" Vitto:"Still ignorant, my lord."; so I don't see this as any strong indication that "the Circle" was anything other than part of a con Vitto was running on Madrigal).
-
If the White Council are Wizards, surely that makes Cowl and Kumori and their ilk Blizards. Then that makes Eb and the Gatekeeper and his merry little band who turned up at the end of Changes Gizards?
The Black Council is what Harry calls the Group, how they describe themselves is another matter.
The Circle is intriguing, my theory that the White God will come into being on the Singularity merging with an Archangel level being closing a cause and effect loop and becoming the paramount entity in creation makes sense if the Circle are bent on closing that loop with their candidate Lucifer. As I say my money’s on Uriel he has the most contact with humans and was briefly human giving rise to an anthropomorphic god rather than something which looks like an Outsider.
From Wikipedia
“In mystical doctrines, the circle mainly symbolises the infinite and cyclical nature of existence, but in religious traditions it represents heavenly bodies and divine spirits. The circle signifies many sacred and spiritual concepts, including unity, infinity, wholeness, the universe, divinity, balance, stability and perfection, among others.”
See basically it’s another name for the Singularity. When the Singularity occurs the Outsiders are locked out forever across creation, the White God becomes paramount and establishes linear time so humanity can exist and eventuality create the Singularity and this is the last cycle (the Endgame as Listen puts it) before the Singularity and Harry’s the last generation of Starborn. As a Wizard Harry may live long enough to see the Singularity.
-
Yeah guys when I wrote BC I meant Black Court..sorry for the misunderstanding ...
The DV has this as an issue for the fandom's writing -- BC, WC, etc -- Black & White Courts & Councils; also the fae Winter Court "WC." We love our acronyms, but occasionally they do cause us some problems!
-
Here's another question.. It's said many times that the BC has beeen around since the dawn of human memory...
Source, please?
AFAIK, you are mistaken. Blampires were created within recorded history (during the Dark Ages). Specifically -- AIUI -- Drakul was trapped in a Starborn body last cycle, so about 666 years ago; so his son (who created the BC) is younger than that.
... So which Court is the oldest? The Red Court have been around since pre history as was astableshed in Changes with the revealing of Duchess Arianna age and the Red Kings. The whites speak aform of Roman right?
I don't think we know, for sure.
Whampires speak Etruscan, which was an early rival of Rome's. The languages are distantly related (with a common ancestor) rather than either being "a form of" the other one; Etruscan is thought to be the older, with some influence on Roman (and via Roman, maybe even into English!).
We don't know the Whamps originated there, however (afaik, there is no WOJ specifying this); it's possible the Etruscan-speaking Whamps were simply the winners in old Whampire rivalries, and that Whampires pre-date even the Etruscan culture. But... call it 3000 years ago, if we take the earliest Whamps to have arisen with the Etruscans.
We have a bit more detail on the Reds. I think it's safe to pin Rampire origins to Mesoamerica (or maybe Polynesia) where they managed (somehow) to capture some of the great Powers worshiped as gods by the early native Mesoamericans (I suspect (but do not know of an WoJ confirming) that this happened around the fall of the Mayas and the dominating rise of the Aztec). Drinking that super-powered blood gave them a huge power-up, and they stepped into the role of the gods, and were worshiped as-such going forward.
Whamps and Blamps overlapped from the beginning of the Blamps. There was probably no Ramp interaction until mortals discovered the "New World" & Cortez' conquest.
But before that...? In theory, either the Reds or the Whites could be much, much older.
-
Not confusing, merely misreading. As far as the Black Court goes, since unless killed they live forever why do they need any elders? They have a couple of leaders at the moment, Drakul and Mavra.
I think the Elders are the leaders - but it's also possible there is some ranks in that BCVs are not born like Whites, but turned like Reds. In at least some other legends, the vamp who turns you is your Lord, and you report to him, at least somewhat. Maybe not as strictly hierarchical as the whites, but something
-
... As far as the Black Court goes, since unless killed they live forever why do they need any elders? ...
I don't think "need" enters into it. The "elder" designation is simply descriptive, of having lived long enough and gathered enough power to stand out even among other powerful blampires.
Mostly, I think, it describes the ones who survived the Stokerpocalypse.
-
I don't think "need" enters into it. The "elder" designation is simply descriptive, of having lived long enough and gathered enough power to stand out even among other powerful blampires.
Mostly, I think, it describes the ones who survived the Stokerpocalypse.
Then none are missing, we have Mavra and we have Drakul... Unless the Black Court is a lot bigger than we think, do they really need anymore than that?
-
I don't think "need" enters into it. The "elder" designation is simply descriptive, of having lived long enough and gathered enough power to stand out even among other powerful blampires.
Mostly, I think, it describes the ones who survived the Stokerpocalypse.
I think you mean the Bramaggedon.
-
Source, please? Harry says this in Blood Rites I believe
AFAIK, you are mistaken. Blampires were created within recorded history (during the Dark Ages). Specifically -- AIUI -- Drakul was trapped in a Starborn body last cycle, so about 666 years ago; so his son (who created the BC) is younger than that.
I don't think we know, for sure.
Whampires speak Etruscan, which was an early rival of Rome's. The languages are distantly related (with a common ancestor) rather than either being "a form of" the other one; Etruscan is thought to be the older, with some influence on Roman (and via Roman, maybe even into English!).
We don't know the Whamps originated there, however (afaik, there is no WOJ specifying this); it's possible the Etruscan-speaking Whamps were simply the winners in old Whampire rivalries, and that Whampires pre-date even the Etruscan culture. But... call it 3000 years ago, if we take the earliest Whamps to have arisen with the Etruscans.
We have a bit more detail on the Reds. I think it's safe to pin Rampire origins to Mesoamerica (or maybe Polynesia) where they managed (somehow) to capture some of the great Powers worshiped as gods by the early native Mesoamericans (I suspect (but do not know of an WoJ confirming) that this happened around the fall of the Mayas and the dominating rise of the Aztec). Drinking that super-powered blood gave them a huge power-up, and they stepped into the role of the gods, and were worshiped as-such going forward.
Whamps and Blamps overlapped from the beginning of the Blamps. There was probably no Ramp interaction until mortals discovered the "New World" & Cortez' conquest.
But before that...? In theory, either the Reds or the Whites could be much, much older.