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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: LostInTime on October 06, 2021, 12:28:52 AM
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On Page 219 of BG, Mab orders Harry, if she dies that night, to "kill Molly Carpenter".
Given the events in Good People, the real bone of contention between Mab and Molly is Molly's continued humanity. Mab thinks that you need to be Spock to be a good Winter Queen.
Mab didn't order Harry to kill the Winter Lady or the new Winter Queen. Because having a neophyte lady and queen would be just as bad for Winter as having a queen that still clings to her mortality.
She was ordering Harry to make Molly as inhuman as possible, to make her fully fae, in order to be what Mab envisions a good queen should be.
Jim has stated elsewhere that Mab can't lie, but she can be wrong. I hope that's the case, here.
Jim has also stated that Molly's coming story is not a happy one. Which, to put it frankly, sucks.
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I was able to create a thread saying the exact same thing! Killing Molly and killing the current Winter Lady are two different things.
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Jim has also stated that Molly's coming story is not a happy one. Which, to put it frankly, sucks.
It never has been a happy one. Molly has been a pawn since the beginning. She was used by the Black Council and by Mab. But mostly by Harry. First, in Proven Guilty, she is manipulated by Mab and the BC. In Changes she is manipulated and betrayed by Harry. And in Cold Days, the final betrayal, when through the efforts of Mab and Harry she loses her soul and her humanity. Harry didn't do any of it on purpose, but he did, none the less, do it. This by the way is straight out of the text of Cold Days.
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I was able to create a thread saying the exact same thing! Killing Molly and killing the current Winter Lady are two different things.
ah, but she doesn't want to kill Molly carpenter the winter lady. But Molly as the winter queen. I think the real implication is the queen herself knows part of her future is she needs to die. Nemesis taking her is such a large threat she has a direct opposite as a contingency. This is also what she was referring to in her one opportunity to talk to titania, remind her of her duty. She's setting up for every scenario. I think she knows Molly becomes Queen before the event horizon that it'll be Molly as queen, taken by Nemesis. I think she wanted to genuinely spare Harry and Molly that future pain with a quick end. Seems like winter mercy to me.
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"Mollys story is not a happy one" imagine if he said the opposite, what could do more to take out tension from the story than reassurance that Molly's story will have a happy ending.
Ok lots of things could, but you get the point.
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"Mollys story is not a happy one" imagine if he said the opposite, what could do more to take out tension from the story than reassurance that Molly's story will have a happy ending.
Ok lots of things could, but you get the point.
It has never been a happy one, Molly has a purpose now, but is she happy with her job?
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Interesting thought.
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It has never been a happy one, Molly has a purpose now, but is she happy with her job?
Happier than she ever has been. If Mab dies at the right moment she can have children as well. :)
But really it is difficult to say. Finding her purpose is what made Gard a happy girl but it must be a purpose that fits with you, Maeve was a very unhappy girl, it was never her purpose.
I am suspicious about that loosing your soul thing, it might be a very human-centric way of interpreting what is happening. Molly feels the importance of what she is doing, it is not a so called "bullshit" job. She might get a ot of satisfaction out of it.
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🤔 if mab started as winter lady and became queen then wouldn't Maeve and sarissa definitely born whilst she was queen?
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From what I can recall, Mab did start out as Winter Lady. Lea was her handmaiden the way Jenny Greenteeth was Maeve's handmaiden. No word on when she became the lady, but since she seemed to be a contemporary of Merlin, probably during the first millennium. Sometime around 1066 she became Winter Queen when the last Winter Queen died. Mother Winter is the OG. The summer queen mantles have all changed hands.
Maeve and Sarissa were born in the early 19th century. Their father was an Austrian composer who died young. Which seems to be a suggestion that it was Mozart, but Schubert fits better. Schubert composed Die Erlkonig.
My crazy fan theory is that the fae courts were set up and the gods banished or surrendered their immortality around the time of Jesus.
Another angle on the "kill Molly Carpenter" thing is that Mab doesn't use a last name. By killing Molly's humanity, you'd be severing her ties to her family. Making her Molly, the queen of air and darkness.
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I am suspicious about that loosing your soul thing, it might be a very human-centric way of interpreting what is happening. Molly feels the importance of what she is doing, it is not a so called "bullshit" job. She might get a ot of satisfaction out of it.
But at some point she had to decide if immortality is worth giving up her immortal soul... I think at some point Mab had to make that choice and doesn't think Molly is up to that yet.
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I've always assumed that the Mantles were created in 1066 and that Mab was still human when she road with the William at the Battle of Hastings. Corb says of her.
“Old woman,” Corb taunted. “I remember you as a bawling brat. I remember your pimply face when you rode with the Conqueror.
Butcher, Jim. Peace Talks (Dresden Files) (pp. 278-279). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
I can't think of a Winter Lady with pimples, much less Mab. Speaking of Molly, Mab said she had another role in mind for Molly. It might be reasonable to assume she was meant to be Harry's consort.
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But at some point she had to decide if immortality is worth giving up her immortal soul... I think at some point Mab had to make that choice and doesn't think Molly is up to that yet.
Or maybe it is not given up but changed.
“Um, Complicated. Think of your spirit-self as a seed. Your soul is the earth it grows in. You need both when you die. The way I’ve heard it . . . they sort of blend together to become something new. It’s a caterpillar-butterfly thing.”
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🤔 if mab started as winter lady and became queen then wouldn't Maeve and sarissa definitely born whilst she was queen?
That is what I think and I don't see why not.
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The worry for Mab is not that Winter is changing both Harry and Molly for the worse, but what if it is a two way street? That they are also changing Winter, and that is what worries Mab.
Harry got Mab to ante up compensation effectively using the rules of Winter against her, not how things usually go between Knight and Queen. Then Molly in The Good People finds an unexpected loophole in the rules and exploits it to the hilt, the Winter Lady can be Lady Bountiful during Christmas and the Mantle permits it, fully.
The humanity of Harry and Molly are making things uncertain for Mab, no wonder she orders Harry to kill Molly, it would solve the humanity issues of both in a single go making things more predictable. The problem is both performed spectacularly against the Fomor and the Titan, not despite their humanity, but because of it. Even the Redcap, The most loyal, vicious member of the Winter Court has nothing but praise for Molly and he can’t lie.
If Molly becomes Queen, she may not becomes the clone of Mab envisaged, if Winter is changed she might be quite different and retain much more of her self.
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“Kill Molly Carpenter,” she said calmly. “As quickly as possible.”
“As Winter Lady, she shows promise,” Mab said. “But she is not ready to become Mab. The consequences would be . . . unsettling. For both of you. Perhaps for all of Winter.” I tried to think of the kind of situation that would unsettle Mab. My mind shied away from it.
Butcher, Jim. Battle Ground (Dresden Files) (p. 220). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
There is no way to destroy Molly Carpenter, nothing that could rid her of her humanity in short order. Mab still has traces a thousand years after the fact. So unless it can be parsed differently it means kill the Winter Lady. And considering that Mab is planning for her death in battle this is a fraught statement. She effectively says that it may be better to be without a Queen and a Lady.
If you're a Star Trek fanatic you can see some similarities between the episode "Where No Man Has Gone Before" and this.
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There is no way to destroy Molly Carpenter, nothing that could rid her of her humanity in short order. Mab still has traces a thousand years after the fact. So unless it can be parsed differently it means kill the Winter Lady. And considering that Mab is planning for her death in battle this is a fraught statement. She effectively says that it may be better to be without a Queen and a Lady.
If you're a Star Trek fanatic you can see some similarities between the episode "Where No Man Has Gone Before" and this.
Outside of the glowing eyes? I really don't, crossing the galactic boundary, both Harry and Molly made that choice, Harry more overtly, Molly, less so, but she continued to train under "Auntie Lea."
Acquire godlike powers, some would say as wizards both had them before the mantles, so far neither is corrupted by them, it is a struggle though and been close. One wants to stop the other because one believes that he or she is a god? Not yet... Struggle with their mantles is the closest to that show.. Oh and did you hear Captain Kirk at age 90 is in space!!! ;D
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“Old woman,” Corb taunted. “I remember you as a bawling brat. I remember your pimply face when you rode with the Conqueror.
Butcher, Jim. Peace Talks (Dresden Files) (pp. 278-279). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition
I've always assumed that the Mantles were created in 1066 and that Mab was still human when she road with the William at the Battle of Hastings. Corb says of her.I can't think of a Winter Lady with pimples, much less Mab. Speaking of Molly, Mab said she had another role in mind for Molly. It might be reasonable to assume she was meant to be Harry's consort.
He also only says "the Conqueror". We ASSUME William. But he also says she wept when Merlin cast her out. Merlin and Arthur were centuries BEFORE William. Could the Conqueror been someone else? Caesar? Or not England - another land? Alexander? Attila? Could she have ridden with Caesar, been a changeling cast out by Merlin, and become Winter Lady at that point, 5th or 6th century, and become Queen at Hastings?
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Or Mab could have ridden with William the Conqueror in 1066 when she was the Winter Lady. She did become the Winter Queen sometime around then.
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Or maybe Corb is making fun of her disguise, rather than an impossibly beautiful Fae lady Mab was disguising as a pimply lass, and Corb is saying noone was fooled.
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I'm personally assuming William mainly because the battle happened on my birthday, October 14.
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Or maybe Corb is making fun of her disguise, rather than an impossibly beautiful Fae lady Mab was disguising as a pimply lass, and Corb is saying noone was fooled.
Mab is too vain to show up pimply. Even Harry is impressed by her wardrobe first time he sees her. She does not slum it.