ParanetOnline
The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Mira on August 13, 2021, 04:08:01 PM
-
Okay early this morning I was replying to a post in the Contagion thread. One of the things we are debating there is when exactly was Justine infected? In the course of that one question came to my mind, which led to another and I decided it really needed it's own thread.
In Blood Rites Thomas is severely injured, to save his life Justine either volunteers or is sent to be fed upon most likely until death to save Thomas by Lord Raith. Honestly I can't remember if she volunteered to sacrifice herself of Lord Raith volunteered her. Anyway out of love we are led to believe Thomas risked not recovering because he stopped himself feeding on her in time to save her. Her hair turned snow white, and she became Lara's secretary and a bit of a spy for Harry. First question, were they or weren't they in true love at that time? Because if they were, all Justine would have done was burn Thomas up. And actually if he suspected it, and as we know wanted to get rid of his son, that might be why Lord Raith sent Justine to him.
Which leads to the second part, how is it that Justine survived?
I don't know if the theory is correct, but any rate the feeding until death to heal him must be the exception to the rule, or Thomas should have burned up. Or what if there never was true love between Justine and Thomas? What if Nemesis can fake true love? Thus the burning reaction can be turned off or on, at will? In normal times when Thomas is merely trying to snuggle her, he gets burnt.. Off, when Thomas was feeding on her in Blood Rites to save his life. In addition, Nemesis was strong enough to withstand any amount of feeding so it only seemed as if Thomas quit feeding out of love for her before she died from it.
If the above is true, it would explain a lot of things, it would give Nemesis a spy in Lara's inner circle. Also a double agent or you might say triple agent, because we know that Justine was passing information she learned as Lara's secretary to Harry, but at the same time Nemesis could be learning information from Harry and passing it on.. Thomas already totally potty over Justine would be fooled by the "faked" true love reaction from contact with her, the stage is set for ultimately happened in Peace Talks.
One last point, interesting don't you think that Justine waits until "Ghost Story," when supposedly star born with power against Outsiders, Harry is dead, to have the lesbian sex which allowed her to have intercourse with Thomas which led to her getting pregnant? Why didn't she think of that before? Why wait until Harry is "dead" and Thomas is at his most vulnerable ebb?
-
From a writing perspective, I think that the scenario explained in Blood Rites where Thomas was able to pull away at the last minute is probably the truth as well as the birth of the true love protection between them. Faking true love seems like it would cheapen their character arcs in an unnecessary way (e.g. if it wasn't actual love for Justine, what motivates Thomas in PT?)
As far as the timeline for Justine's infection, I think that's a topic worth delving into more deeply. Assuming that the exact point Nemesis infection has some clues in the text (since other major infectees were; Lea, Maeve, Cat Sith), we can start narrowing things down.
Beside claims that it had Justine since she had become close to Lara.
"How long?" I asked. "How long have you been in Justine?"
Justine waved the steel bar in a vague gesture. "Mortal time is such a limited concept. A few years. Ever since she became close to Lara."
Going off this, it seems like it would have to be at least a significant period after Blood Rites. In White Night, Justine is still playing ditsy, but she's clearly Lara's top aide. Significantly, White Night also shows us the Black Council interfering in the White Court. Cowl got a personal view of Justine blowing her air horn and being protected by Lara, not to mention whatever information Madrigal passed along. I'd imagine that that at least would have put her on the Black Council's radar, hence a Nemesis interest.
Justine was a small part of Turn Coat where she was in the club Zero and burns Madeline Raith. I don't see an obvious time for her to be taken here.
Justine's next big appearance would have been in Even Hand, about eight months before Changes. There, Lara sent Justine as a messenger to the Fomor but she was abducted by a different Fomor lord, Mag. While in Mag's custody, Justine managed to free a bunch of his prisoners before fleeing to Marcone for protection. This could very well be where she was infected.
Justine was also a player in the Bombshells short story a bit before Ghost Story where Molly prevents the Fomor from bombing the svartalves at a treaty signing. Justine being infected in Even Hand makes her involvement here need some explaining, but that's probably doable.
After that, Justine was a hostage of the Redcap in Cold Days. This might be an opportunity to get to her, but we learned in BG that the Redcap was Mab's eyes on Maeve in CD. It would have taken more than just the Redcap for that to be the infection time. Plus, it doesn't exactly fit the "ever since she got close to Justine" line from Nemesis.
Finally, we know that Justine was infected before the start of PT since her getting pregnant was Nemesis's idea. Of all of Justine's on-screen time, Even Hand seems like the most likely suspect from what we know now.
-
One last point, interesting don't you think that Justine waits until "Ghost Story," when supposedly star born with power against Outsiders, Harry is dead, to have the lesbian sex which allowed her to have intercourse with Thomas which led to her getting pregnant? Why didn't she think of that before? Why wait until Harry is "dead" and Thomas is at his most vulnerable ebb?
For this, Thomas was feeding well before Ghost Story. There wasn't a need for him to feed from Justine prior to that. After Harry's death, Justine was the trick to help him dig out of his depression.
Also, assuming that Even Hand was Justine's infection time, it's not long after that until Justine had the threesome idea.
-
For this, Thomas was feeding well before Ghost Story. There wasn't a need for him to feed from Justine prior to that. After Harry's death, Justine was the trick to help him dig out of his depression.
I believe it was mentioned in Grave Peril, that is when we first meet Justine, that Thomas was feeding
off of her and that was helping her mental health. So yes, he was feeding on her.
From a writing perspective, I think that the scenario explained in Blood Rites where Thomas was able to pull away at the last minute is probably the truth as well as the birth of the true love protection between them. Faking true love seems like it would cheapen their character arcs in an unnecessary way (e.g. if it wasn't actual love for Justine, what motivates Thomas in PT?)
Why would it cheapen it? It wouldn't cheapen how Thomas feels about her. And it was that love that Nemesis used as a weapon, she deliberately gets pregnant, and uses Thomas's love for her and fear for the child as blackmail to get him to the assassination attempt in Peace Talks.. Which by the way Nemesis admits to in Battle Ground, does that cheapen how Thomas feels for her? Justine herself might not feel anything one way or the other for Thomas, and Nemesis has been pulling the strings all along.
As far as the timeline for Justine's infection, I think that's a topic worth delving into more deeply. Assuming that the exact point Nemesis infection has some clues in the text (since other major infectees were; Lea, Maeve, Cat Sith), we can start narrowing things down.
Ones we were told about at the time, however we weren't told about Justine until the end of Battle Ground. However the introduction of the infection to the Winter Court through the Knife happens in Grave Peril, that is also when we are introduced to Justine and made aware of the attachment of Thomas to her.
Going off this, it seems like it would have to be at least a significant period after Blood Rites. In White Night, Justine is still playing ditsy, but she's clearly Lara's top aide. Significantly, White Night also shows us the Black Council interfering in the White Court. Cowl got a personal view of Justine blowing her air horn and being protected by Lara, not to mention whatever information Madrigal passed along. I'd imagine that that at least would have put her on the Black Council's radar, hence a Nemesis interest.
"Mortal time is such a vague concept." Okay, so that means that Nemesis wasn't willing to give Harry a straight answer there, because that would answer a lot of questions he isn't willing to answer. As in just when did the infestation happen and how long as Nemesis planned this strike?
You make my point when you say in White Night Justine is still acting ditsy but still is Lara's top aid.
Does Lara strike you as the type of person who'd have a ditsy person acting as her personal aid and secretary? The answer to that is no, she wouldn't. So more evidence that Nemesis can turn behaviors on and off at will for whatever serves it's purpose.
Justine's next big appearance would have been in Even Hand, about eight months before Changes. There, Lara sent Justine as a messenger to the Fomor but she was abducted by a different Fomor lord, Mag. While in Mag's custody, Justine managed to free a bunch of his prisoners before fleeing to Marcone for protection. This could very well be where she was infected.
Could be, or it was all an act, like her "concern" for Thomas after he was captured and beaten half to death in Peace Talks. Something was a bit off, but because their love was "well known" Harry didn't push to find out why it didn't feel right.
Finally, we know that Justine was infected before the start of PT since her getting pregnant was Nemesis's idea. Of all of Justine's on-screen time, Even Hand seems like the most likely suspect from what we know now.
No, it is a mere assumption.
-
I believe it was mentioned in Grave Peril, that is when we first meet Justine, that Thomas was feeding
off of her and that was helping her mental health. So yes, he was feeding on her.
Sure he has fed on her before, but I was referring to the period between BR and GS. There was no need to feed on Justine in that period since Thomas was well fed. At the same time, Justine was on medication from Lara for her mental issues. They didn't need a work-around for a problem that didn't exist. It's not particularly suspicious that the work-around didn't come about until GS.
Why would it cheapen it? It wouldn't cheapen how Thomas feels about her. And it was that love that Nemesis used as a weapon, she deliberately gets pregnant, and uses Thomas's love for her and fear for the child as blackmail to get him to the assassination attempt in Peace Talks.. Which by the way Nemesis admits to in Battle Ground, does that cheapen how Thomas feels for her? Justine herself might not feel anything one way or the other for Thomas, and Nemesis has been pulling the strings all along.
"Psych, it's not really true love" is not a good story twist, imo. Your mileage my vary.
Ones we were told about at the time, however we weren't told about Justine until the end of Battle Ground. However the introduction of the infection to the Winter Court through the Knife happens in Grave Peril, that is also when we are introduced to Justine and made aware of the attachment of Thomas to her.
We weren't told about Maeve's infection until CD, but we get in-text clues about it happening in the final battle of SK. I'm going off the assumption that we're in a similar situation for Justine, hence looking for clues of those types of opportunities.
GP is a possibility, but that's even earlier than Nemesis admits to in BG. Justine wasn't taken under Lara's wing until after BR. Personally, the end of WN feels like the point where Nemesis would determine that Justine would be a worthwhile target, so the actual infection event would likely be sometime soon after. If we also assume that it happens in text (since Justine is a major character), that puts Turn Coat/Even Hand to the top of the list of candidates.
"Mortal time is such a vague concept." Okay, so that means that Nemesis wasn't willing to give Harry a straight answer there, because that would answer a lot of questions he isn't willing to answer. As in just when did the infestation happen and how long as Nemesis planned this strike?
You make my point when you say in White Night Justine is still acting ditsy but still is Lara's top aid.
Does Lara strike you as the type of person who'd have a ditsy person acting as her personal aid and secretary? The answer to that is no, she wouldn't. So more evidence that Nemesis can turn behaviors on and off at will for whatever serves it's purpose.
Does Lara hire people who can feign harmlessness as a shield? Sure, seems very White Court of her to value brains over brawn. It's even more in Lara's character to have an aide that's particularly protected from her backstabbing frenemies via True Love.
I have no doubt that Nemesis makes for a decent actor, but I don't see particular relevance for it in that aspect.
Could be, or it was all an act, like her "concern" for Thomas after he was captured and beaten half to death in Peace Talks. Something was a bit off, but because their love was "well known" Harry didn't push to find out why it didn't feel right.
No, it is a mere assumption.
Even Hand being the time Justine was infected is built on a few assumptions, but I don't think they are unreasonable ones.
-
Sure he has fed on her before, but I was referring to the period between BR and GS. There was no need to feed on Justine in that period since Thomas was well fed. At the same time, Justine was on medication from Lara for her mental issues. They didn't need a work-around for a problem that didn't exist. It's not particularly suspicious that the work-around didn't come about until GS.
But whether or not he was feeding on her isn't the point.. He couldn't even touch her without getting burned after Blood Rites. Not sure which book it was or story, but Harry meets them in a bar and is surprised that Thomas has his arm around her, the answer then was a rubber skin suit for her.. Why? When a one night stand with anyone would have solved their problem?
We weren't told about Maeve's infection until CD, but we get in-text clues about it happening in the final battle of SK. I'm going off the assumption that we're in a similar situation for Justine, hence looking for clues of those types of opportunities.
Mostly we have speculation, Aurora is a better example, we all agree for the most part that she was infected by Summer Knight.. But how and who? Speculation, that it was Elaine, but no actual proof or even clues unless you buy she was infected when she fled Justin's house and found refuge at the Summer Court. A case can be made that Justine was infected when she was Bianca's prisoner.. Or depending on how far you want to push Nemesis long term planning, she was infected before she got the attention of Lord Raith to be kine for his son, whom he didn't wish well. Or if you buy that Lord Raith has some connection to the Outsiders, we know from White Night that some of them did, he or one of them may have arranged her infestation thinking long term..
GP is a possibility, but that's even earlier than Nemesis admits to in BG.
He didn't admit to anything, he said...
"How long?" I asked. "How long have you been in Justine?"
Justine waved the steel bar in a vague gesture. "Mortal time is such a limited concept. A few years. Ever since she became close to Lara."
She became close at the end of Blood Rites because Lara felt she owed her for what she did for Thomas. Noe Nemesis could have come out as said that, but he didn't, "mortal time is such a vague concept." What does that mean? Almost everyone here likes the time travel angle to the story, or a time travel angle.. "Mortal time is such a vague concept," means on his time line, not Harry's time line.. In other words, it isn't something that can be pinned down.
Does Lara hire people who can feign harmlessness as a shield? Sure, seems very White Court of her to value brains over brawn. It's even more in Lara's character to have an aide that's particularly protected from her backstabbing frenemies via True Love.
Yet Justine was busy back stabbing away feeding information to Harry when he needed it.
-
Our facts:
(1) We know that Justine and Thomas shared true love at end of Blood Rites (or shortly thereafter).
(2) Justine's hair was able to burn Madeline Raith at Club Zero during Turn Coat and she had to wear a rubber suit (yow!) to interact with Thomas.
(3) At the conclusion of Ghost Story, Justine breaks Thomas' hunger strike with a clever plan. Harry and Uriel witness Justine's explanation of this plan. Uriel is amused at Harry's discomfort but makes no mention of any ... issue with Justine.
** Nemesis Infection Occurs **
(4) Justine is brought inside of Demonreach's defenses during Cold Days, just before Nemfected Maeve brags to Mab that killing her might give the Mantle to some ally of Maeve/Nemesis.
(5) Justine becomes pregnant at some point just before Peace Talks. This gives Justine the insurance she needs to manipulate Thomas into doing her bidding.
(6) Justine reveals that she is Nemfected and had planned to trick Harry into passing her through Demonreach's defenses to "visit" Thomas.
My Assumptions:
(1) A controlled, Nem-fected person cannot exhibit the "true love" necessary to shield that person from a Raith.
(2) It would be odd for Uriel not to mention an issue with Justine; it seems impossible that Uriel would not notice the presence of Nemesis. Seriously, if Uriel can't do this -- and he is just one tier down from TWG -- there is no way that Rashid can. This event also occurred after Harry DEMANDED and Uriel agreed to give Harry enough information to make a fully informed decision as to whether to "go back."
Conclusions:
(1) Justine was not infected until right after Ghost Story. It may be that breaking her "true love" protection that gave Nemesis a way in.
Justine would always have been a person of interest to Nemesis. She is essentially a "Privy Secretary" to the White Queen and is good friends with the Warden of Demonreach. In religious circles it is believed that being insane, doing drugs and playing with the occult create opportunities for possession. I think it's even mentioned in Small Favor. Justine kind of did all three of those things -- she's mentally ill; tried to control it with drugs (legal and illegal); hangs out with vampires and wizards and worse.
(2) Justine was already infected during Cold Days. Apparently, one aim of Nemesis is to get behind the defenses of Demonreach. Now that Harry has learned how to make the defenses more "active," she has to trick Harry into doing so. I don't believe that the Spirit of the Island can act against a guest of Harry. However, during Cold Days its possible that she could have exploited Maeve's and Lilly's death ... had Molly not been present to intercept the Lady's mantle.
-
But whether or not he was feeding on her isn't the point.. He couldn't even touch her without getting burned after Blood Rites. Not sure which book it was or story, but Harry meets them in a bar and is surprised that Thomas has his arm around her, the answer then was a rubber skin suit for her.. Why? When a one night stand with anyone would have solved their problem?
Probably club Zero in TC you're thinking about. Meh, it wasn't enough of a problem to risk Justine's protection. They wouldn't have known for sure that it would have come back before they tested it.
Mostly we have speculation, Aurora is a better example, we all agree for the most part that she was infected by Summer Knight.. But how and who? Speculation, that it was Elaine, but no actual proof or even clues unless you buy she was infected when she fled Justin's house and found refuge at the Summer Court.
Aurora is an exception as a semi-major character where we don't have a good sense of where or when her infection came from. It's hard to give clues about when it happened when she was already infected when Harry met her. If it was Elaine, it'll surely come up when we get to the bottom of her story.
A case can be made that Justine was infected when she was Bianca's prisoner.. Or depending on how far you want to push Nemesis long term planning, she was infected before she got the attention of Lord Raith to be kine for his son, whom he didn't wish well. Or if you buy that Lord Raith has some connection to the Outsiders, we know from White Night that some of them did, he or one of them may have arranged her infestation thinking long term..
He didn't admit to anything, he said...
Nemesis admitted to a vague period of time. He's an Outsider, counting time like a mortal isn't his thing. Could he have been off or lying? Sure, but it's harder to motivate lying to Harry when Nemesis is planning on killing him imminently.
She became close at the end of Blood Rites because Lara felt she owed her for what she did for Thomas. Noe Nemesis could have come out as said that, but he didn't, "mortal time is such a vague concept." What does that mean? Almost everyone here likes the time travel angle to the story, or a time travel angle.. "Mortal time is such a vague concept," means on his time line, not Harry's time line.. In other words, it isn't something that can be pinned down.
Okay, time travel shenanigans could change things. Kinda wrecks the speculation game if you go with the assumption that the words on the page tell you nothing, though. Nemesis answering Harry's question with a general period is Occam's answer.
Yet Justine was busy back stabbing away feeding information to Harry when he needed it.
Are you saying that Justine helping Harry is evidence that Justine was already infected? I don't follow the line of thought here.
-
(2) It would be odd for Uriel not to mention an issue with Justine; it seems impossible that Uriel would not notice the presence of Nemesis. Seriously, if Uriel can't do this -- and he is just one tier down from TWG -- there is no way that Rashid can. This event also occurred after Harry DEMANDED and Uriel agreed to give Harry enough information to make a fully informed decision as to whether to "go back."
Hmm, this one is hard to explain. It's well after Justine became Lara's aide, so after Nemesis's claim. I think it's easier to call this a plot hole than to try to explain why Nemesis would lie about the timeline. Handwave that Nemesis is very hard to detect, and Uriel can't put too much power into doing things because he'd break reality. A mortal can't take the amount of attention from him required to detect Nemesis.
Justine would always have been a person of interest to Nemesis. She is essentially a "Privy Secretary" to the White Queen and is good friends with the Warden of Demonreach. In religious circles it is believed that being insane, doing drugs and playing with the occult create opportunities for possession. I think it's even mentioned in Small Favor. Justine kind of did all three of those things -- she's mentally ill; tried to control it with drugs (legal and illegal); hangs out with vampires and wizards and worse.
The White Queen's secretary is an attractive target, but Justine wasn't born that way. She wasn't worth Nemesis collecting until it was clear that she'd be in that position. So at least post-BR, but I think more likely between WN and PT. Specifically, the lead up to Even Hand at the moment.
-
"Has Justine Been Faking It All Along?"
I mean I'd like to think that Thomas, as a White Court vamp, would have...
Oh wait, you mean about Nemesis.
-
I forgot which short story it was but Justine had been captured by the Fomor, and held captive. She escaped but I'm wondering if it was because she'd been Nemfected, and the escape was faked
-
I forgot which short story it was but Justine had been captured by the Fomor, and held captive. She escaped but I'm wondering if it was because she'd been Nemfected, and the escape was faked
Even Hand, the one from Marcone's point of view.
-
Even Hand, the one from Marcone's point of view.
yeah that one. Seems like the perfect cover for Nemesis to get It's hooks into her.
-
yeah that one. Seems like the perfect cover for Nemesis to get It's hooks into her.
That was my conclusion for the current most likely candidate if we assume that the infection happens basically during an in-text event.
-
That was my conclusion for the current most likely candidate if we assume that the infection happens basically during an in-text event.
I still really want to know how Nemfection happens. What is It limited to with regards to how it infects someone?
-
I still really want to know how Nemfection happens. What is It limited to with regards to how it infects someone?
I don't think we have much information on how it happens exactly. The interview with Jim I watched about a week ago made it seem like there might be multiple avenues for it, but the big takeaway I got from it was that Nemesis had limited resources in order to do what it does. We don't have an idea about how limited, but I'd guess that slowly taking over humanity one-by-one like a zombie horde is probably not possible. It has to be more strategic than infect anyone and everyone.
-
I don't think we have much information on how it happens exactly. The interview with Jim I watched about a week ago made it seem like there might be multiple avenues for it, but the big takeaway I got from it was that Nemesis had limited resources in order to do what it does. We don't have an idea about how limited, but I'd guess that slowly taking over humanity one-by-one like a zombie horde is probably not possible. It has to be more strategic than infect anyone and everyone.
yeah. Nemesis seems more like it's on a very specific mission. To cause a cataclysmic event. Breaking into Demon Reach, or an imbalance with the Sidhe. It's a creator of chaos. If it could trigger such an event, it would be a big enough thing as to allow others to take advantage of the situation.
-
I still really want to know how Nemfection happens. What is It limited to with regards to how it infects someone?
Or is everyone forgetting that Justine from the beginning was considered "insane"? Perfect cover for an inside job don't you think? Since she was considered insane, no one would suspect if she seemed a bit off from time to time. The White Court is a member of the Accords, has been from the start, perhaps Nemesis didn't have a specific mission in mind from the beginning, but it had the perfect undercover agent inside to pull off mischief when the conditions presented themselves. I'd say instead of being infested when she was held "captive" by the Fomor, that is when the plans for the mission went down..
-
Because Nemesis has no need for an undercover agent in the White Court when all indications are that Lord Raith was deeply connected with Outsiders to begin with, and if it did need an undercover agent, the Girlfriend of House Raiths Black sheep that is being set up for death would be a terrible Choice?
Besides, Narratively it really takes away from Thomas's situation if "lol she never loved you and was a plant the whole time".
-
Because Nemesis has no need for an undercover agent in the White Court when all indications are that Lord Raith was deeply connected with Outsiders to begin with, and if it did need an undercover agent, the Girlfriend of House Raiths Black sheep that is being set up for death would be a terrible Choice?
Besides, Narratively it really takes away from Thomas's situation if "lol she never loved you and was a plant the whole time".
One could also ask since Lord Raith has the Outsider connection why would they need to infect Justine in the first place? No, the assumption is that there is a close connection between Lord Raith and Outsiders, it has yet to be proven without a doubt.
Why would it narratively take away from Thomas's situation? The fact that Justine/Nemesis had set him up from the beginning makes his life all the more tragic.. Just think all the sacrifice for nothing,
and unless Justine's brain was totally replaced on the boat when Nemesis admits to deliberately getting pregnant to set Thomas up, Justine didn't love him in that moment, now the question is, did she ever love him? No, it just makes Thomas a totally tragic figure, lots of narrative value in that..
-
One could also ask since Lord Raith has the Outsider connection why would they need to infect Justine in the first place? No, the assumption is that there is a close connection between Lord Raith and Outsiders, it has yet to be proven without a doubt.
Why would it infect Justine at all? Because Lara mind whammied their old handle on the White Court. Once he's out of the picture in BR, time to start looking for a new agent. Hey, that competent aide we saw in WN might work out well. Lara seems to be leaning on her a bit. Oh, she's also got connections to that annoying starborn? Perfect. Let's get her on the team.
Jokes aside, Papa Raith explicitly has Outsider connections with the HWWB ritual. It's not an assumption. I don't think he was infected himself, but there's a good case to be made he was a Black Council member, and Nemesis is working with them anyway.
Why would it narratively take away from Thomas's situation? The fact that Justine/Nemesis had set him up from the beginning makes his life all the more tragic.. Just think all the sacrifice for nothing,
and unless Justine's brain was totally replaced on the boat when Nemesis admits to deliberately getting pregnant to set Thomas up, Justine didn't love him in that moment, now the question is, did she ever love him? No, it just makes Thomas a totally tragic figure, lots of narrative value in that..
"Love is a lie" is just not a widely compelling message. Besides, if Nemesis could have predicted all the dominoes falling into place for it to have gone after Justine from the very beginning, reality should have collapsed a long time ago. It's too sloppy a storytelling device.
-
"Love is a lie" is just not a widely compelling message. Besides, if Nemesis could have predicted all the dominoes falling into place for it to have gone after Justine from the very beginning, reality should have collapsed a long time ago. It's too sloppy a storytelling device.
Is it? Since it wasn't telegraphed I wouldn't call it a sloppy story telling device. In fact it is a very realistic one, during the Cold War, the Soviets did that very thing, agents would move here, speak perfect American English, be very American, marry, have children, no one knew until it happened and actual damage was done, that this person was a spy for the other side all along. I'm not saying it happened often, but it happened. Doesn't matter whether or not Lord Raith is associated with Outsiders, Justine wasn't embedded to hurt the White Court.. When she turned Thomas lose to assassinate the head of one of the Accord members, she didn't give a fig about what happened to Thomas as a result, that was coldly done. And since Lord Raith as we know from Blood Rites doesn't care about Thomas either and was willing to sacrifice him if it broke Margaret's death curse, he applaud it.
y would it infect Justine at all? Because Lara mind whammied their old handle on the White Court. Once he's out of the picture in BR, time to start looking for a new agent. Hey, that competent aide we saw in WN might work out well. Lara seems to be leaning on her a bit. Oh, she's also got connections to that annoying starborn? Perfect. Let's get her on the team.
Point is, it did infest Justine, and yes, for those very reasons you just stated.. So she could strike
when there was an opening.
Jokes aside, Papa Raith explicitly has Outsider connections with the HWWB ritual. It's not an assumption. I don't think he was infected himself, but there's a good case to be made he was a Black Council member, and Nemesis is working with them anyway.
And it is very possible that Lord Raith has known all along that Justine was infested... And that his son, Thomas would be a willing dupe for her to toy with, and the connections to Harry..
-
I'm just not buying that True Love (caps deliberate) could be created by an Outsider. I believe it wouldn't know how, far too human a thing. So at least at the point where True Love was triggered, Justine was still fundamentally herself.
Granted, the Thomas case makes clear a background infection that isn't a full possession can still experience True Love. So Justine could, I suppose, have been a sleeper agent; infected but not modified much.
-
Is it? Since it wasn't telegraphed I wouldn't call it a sloppy story telling device. In fact it is a very realistic one, during the Cold War, the Soviets did that very thing, agents would move here, speak perfect American English, be very American, marry, have children, no one knew until it happened and actual damage was done, that this person was a spy for the other side all along. I'm not saying it happened often, but it happened. Doesn't matter whether or not Lord Raith is associated with Outsiders, Justine wasn't embedded to hurt the White Court.. When she turned Thomas lose to assassinate the head of one of the Accord members, she didn't give a fig about what happened to Thomas as a result, that was coldly done. And since Lord Raith as we know from Blood Rites doesn't care about Thomas either and was willing to sacrifice him if it broke Margaret's death curse, he applaud it.
Point is, it did infest Justine, and yes, for those very reasons you just stated.. So she could strike
when there was an opening.
And it is very possible that Lord Raith has known all along that Justine was infested... And that his son, Thomas would be a willing dupe for her to toy with, and the connections to Harry..
Those are all reasons why Nemesis would want to infect Justine sometime after BR. The question at hand is when Justine was infected, not if she was or not.
To be a plant from the very beginning is much less likely than being infected after BR. For one, it would require Nemesis to be lying on the boat (why write it where Nemesis was intentionally vague and giving false information at the same time?). Next, it would mean that the majority of Thomas's character growth is based on a lie, which is not a great writing choice. It's the same idea why people hate the "It was a dream all along" story ending.
Then it would require that Nemesis was a good enough chess player to have predicted the convoluted way this random mortal would somehow dance her way into the position of the White Queen's secretary (and if its chess master skills are so strong, how is someone like Harry even a problem at all?) and/or why it was worth investing so much energy into this mortal instead of a better target.
-
Those are all reasons why Nemesis would want to infect Justine sometime after BR. The question at hand is when Justine was infected, not if she was or not.
Or infected before, there is motive you know? If Lord Raith instigated it for example, then he pushes
Justine together with Thomas. He both would like to get rid of Thomas and he knows who his brother is. No, the more I think of it, the more likely she was always infested.
To be a plant from the very beginning is much less likely than being infected after BR. For one, it would require Nemesis to be lying on the boat (why write it where Nemesis was intentionally vague and giving false information at the same time?). Next, it would mean that the majority of Thomas's character growth is based on a lie, which is not a great writing choice. It's the same idea why people hate the "It was a dream all along" story ending.
I don't see Thomas's character growth being based on a lie. His growth came from his own feeling, that was sincere, not his fault if he was duped. Justine wasn't trying to get pregnant out of love for Thomas.. That weren't a dream.
Then it would require that Nemesis was a good enough chess player to have predicted the convoluted way this random mortal would somehow dance her way into the position of the White Queen's secretary (and if its chess master skills are so strong, how is someone like Harry even a problem at all?) and/or why it was worth investing so much energy into this mortal instead of a better target.
Nemesis is a very good chess player, that is what makes it so dangerous.. So dangerous in fact that Titania only whispers it's name. As I said, implanted Justine is no random mortal, just sat back quietly acting a bit crazy to take advantage where ever she could and she did.
-
First question, were they or weren't they in true love at that time? Because if they were, all Justine would have done was burn Thomas up. And actually if he suspected it, and as we know wanted to get rid of his son, that might be why Lord Raith sent Justine to him.
In BR the protection seemed to require an act of self-sacrifice to set up. Thomas' little sister was able to get away from the Raiths because the guy who was going to be her first took a bullet for her. Justine was willing to die to save Thomas, and he risked his life stopping feeding on her.
The sacrifice requirement seems to have been softened a bit in later installments.
-
Or infected before, there is motive you know? If Lord Raith instigated it for example, then he pushes
Justine together with Thomas. He both would like to get rid of Thomas and he knows who his brother is. No, the more I think of it, the more likely she was always infested.
No, not evidence for infecting her before, because Justine wasn't anywhere near that strategic position that makes her worth acquiring before BR (really before WN imo). Before BR, Justine was black sheep of the family Thomas's mortal girlfriend; that's basically it. There were much better targets for Nemesis to spend its finite resources on before BR.
I don't see Thomas's character growth being based on a lie. His growth came from his own feeling, that was sincere, not his fault if he was duped. Justine wasn't trying to get pregnant out of love for Thomas.. That weren't a dream.
Like I said, your mileage may vary. Taking Thomas's character arc to "Psych, she never really loved you" is not a good storyline for me. I don't think that viewpoint would be uncommon.
Nemesis is a very good chess player, that is what makes it so dangerous.. So dangerous in fact that Titania only whispers it's name. As I said, implanted Justine is no random mortal, just sat back quietly acting a bit crazy to take advantage where ever she could and she did.
Before BR, Justine really is just some random mortal that Thomas fell in love with. Her choices and circumstances elevate her position only after BR, which makes that a good early bound for when Nemesis got its hooks into her.
For mortal Justine to be worth the resources for Nemesis to grab, she needs to be secretary to the White Queen at least. To have predicted Justine from the beginning was going to get there requires Nemesis to correctly guess
1) Random mortal Raith picked would be compatible with Thomas for more than a fling
2) Justine would need to survive not being eaten by baby-rampire Susan; and that probably only happens because Harry intervenes in time.
3) Justine survives fatal feeding from Thomas
4) Lara takes Justine under her wing instead of setting her up somewhere quietly out of the way
If any one of those things doesn't go exactly right, Nemesis loses out on its investment of resources in the Justine plant. Nemesis would have had to predict all of those unpredictable outcomes years in advance. If it could do that, Nemesis should have ended reality centuries ago.
-
No, not evidence for infecting her before, because Justine wasn't anywhere near that strategic position that makes her worth acquiring before BR (really before WN imo). Before BR, Justine was black sheep of the family Thomas's mortal girlfriend; that's basically it. There were much better targets for Nemesis to spend its finite resources on before BR.
Um, black sheep, a little crazy? Sounds a bit like Maeve doesn't it? Hmmm... Target, the brother of a star born who defeated He Who Walks Behind at sixteen... I'd say perfect positioning.
Like I said, your mileage may vary. Taking Thomas's character arc to "Psych, she never really loved you" is not a good storyline for me. I don't think that viewpoint would be uncommon.
That is your view point, mine is I think time travel is over done and way to easy a way out of things.
But that doesn't make those view points common or uncommon..
Before BR, Justine really is just some random mortal that Thomas fell in love with. Her choices and circumstances elevate her position only after BR, which makes that a good early bound for when Nemesis got its hooks into her.
No, she wasn't random, I'd have to go back and read, I seem to remember she was selected kine to feed the family, I seem to remember Lord Raith chose her for him.
For mortal Justine to be worth the resources for Nemesis to grab, she needs to be secretary to the White Queen at least.
Why? Yes, that is what she ended up as, but what she did, she didn't need to be secretary. All she had to do was become the lover of Thomas, and then get herself pregnant, she then had all the leverage she needed to get him to upset the apple cart.
1) Random mortal Raith picked would be compatible with Thomas for more than a fling
It may appear random, but not really, as a male, Raith saw his son as a threat.. The choice was a bit more complicated than merely random.
2) Justine would need to survive not being eaten by baby-rampire Susan; and that probably only happens because Harry intervenes in time.
However that didn't happen, I think you are confusing the end of Grave Peril with Changes.. Susan only becomes a full feeding baby vampire in Changes and we know what happened there, Justine wasn't at C.I. In Grave Peril Susan is half turned, but she didn't feed, now they may not have gotten to Justine yet, but Mavra was also there and chose some "take out" when she left, those poor kids were also unturned. So perhaps Justine got lucky or she wasn't messed with because she was already possessed by Nemesis..
) Justine survives fatal feeding from Thomas
Again, my point, how did she survive? Oh maybe she is possessed by Nemesis..
4) Lara takes Justine under her wing instead of setting her up somewhere quietly out of the way
Not so odd, Lara loves her brother and is grateful and knows how he feels about her. Either way it embeds Justine further and makes her even more legit, best cover yet.
If any one of those things doesn't go exactly right, Nemesis loses out on its investment of resources in the Justine plant. Nemesis would have had to predict all of those unpredictable outcomes years in advance. If it could do that, Nemesis should have ended reality centuries ago.
Nemesis has time, this isn't the only place that Nemesis is, it is a critical place, things don't always go exactly right, just look at how Harry's life has gone, it is full of "what ifs" and "but fors" Nemesis isn't always successful but that doesn't stop it.
-
Um, black sheep, a little crazy? Sounds a bit like Maeve doesn't it? Hmmm... Target, the brother of a star born who defeated He Who Walks Behind at sixteen... I'd say perfect positioning.
Maeve is several orders of magnitude more important than Justine, and if your goal is to get a handle on Harry originally from before BR, his brother's mortal girlfriend is not a good target. Might as well get Harry's dentist.
No, she wasn't random, I'd have to go back and read, I seem to remember she was selected kine to feed the family, I seem to remember Lord Raith chose her for him.
Thomas met Justine at Zero. A citation would be nice here.
Why? Yes, that is what she ended up as, but what she did, she didn't need to be secretary. All she had to do was become the lover of Thomas, and then get herself pregnant, she then had all the leverage she needed to get him to upset the apple cart.
Without the rest of her connections, she blackmails Thomas, he gets disavowed and executed. All that work over the course of years for no payoff. It's not worth the effort for Nemesis without Justine's other connections. Nemesis couldn't have predicted that Justine would get all those connections before BR, hence infection post-BR.
It may appear random, but not really, as a male, Raith saw his son as a threat.. The choice was a bit more complicated than merely random.
Papa Raith had taken care of several sons before Thomas and probably planned on taking care of several more in the coming centuries. Nemesis doesn't need to be involved for that.
However that didn't happen, I think you are confusing the end of Grave Peril with Changes.. Susan only becomes a full feeding baby vampire in Changes and we know what happened there, Justine wasn't at C.I.
I'm not getting GP confused with Changes. Check out the end of GP again.
Bianca locks Justine in the larder with half-turned Susan. Until Harry showed up, it was obvious that Justine was intended to finish her turning. Huge chance that the effort of infecting Justine before BR is all wasted.
In Grave Peril Susan is half turned, but she didn't feed, now they may not have gotten to Justine yet, but Mavra was also there and chose some "take out" when she left, those poor kids were also unturned. So perhaps Justine got lucky or she wasn't messed with because she was already possessed by Nemesis..Again, my point, how did she survive? Oh maybe she is possessed by Nemesis..
Or maybe it was completely unpredictable luck that Harry managed to save her against all odds. Other rampires had already started feeding on Justine before she got locked in with Susan. Justine was set up to die that night from Susan's first feeding.
Not so odd, Lara loves her brother and is grateful and knows how he feels about her. Either way it embeds Justine further and makes her even more legit, best cover yet.
You've got a 50/50 shot that Lara buys her a country house to stay in far away from WC politics. That's a 50/50 shot that half the benefit of taking her is wiped away and Nemesis wasted years of work recruiting a nobody.
Nemesis has time, this isn't the only place that Nemesis is, it is a critical place, things don't always go exactly right, just look at how Harry's life has gone, it is full of "what ifs" and "but fors" Nemesis isn't always successful but that doesn't stop it.
Exactly, the world is difficult to predict. Nemesis plays the odds and spends its effort to acquire well-placed agents most likely to be able to help its agenda. You don't invest your power in a nobody and hope for the best that you'll get lucky. Justine wasn't worth acquiring until after BR.
-
Exactly, the world is difficult to predict. Nemesis plays the odds and spends its effort to acquire well-placed agents most likely to be able to help its agenda. You don't invest your power in a nobody and hope for the best that you'll get lucky. Justine wasn't worth acquiring until after BR.
She became worth it the moment she became kine for the immediate Raith family.. Big clue here, she's insane, but feeding on her makes her sane?
Maeve is several orders of magnitude more important than Justine, and if your goal is to get a handle on Harry originally from before BR, his brother's mortal girlfriend is not a good target. Might as well get Harry's dentist.
But Maeve was infected, not possessed apparently.. As far as that goes, Maeve never had a "handle" as you call it on Harry, but Thomas did as of Grave Peril.
Without the rest of her connections, she blackmails Thomas, he gets disavowed and executed. All that work over the course of years for no payoff. It's not worth the effort for Nemesis without Justine's other connections. Nemesis couldn't have predicted that Justine would get all those connections before BR, hence infection post-BR.
Nemesis has the time... All that time it has someone on the inside, watching.. Hence the name HE WHO WALKS BESIDE, that is someone that goes along, they don't interfere they are just there watching and taking in information.
I'm not getting GP confused with Changes. Check out the end of GP again.
Bianca locks Justine in the larder with half-turned Susan. Until Harry showed up, it was obvious that Justine was intended to finish her turning. Huge chance that the effort of infecting Justine before BR is all wasted.
Or because Justine was already possessed, Susan couldn't have fed on her if she wanted to.
You've got a 50/50 shot that Lara buys her a country house to stay in far away from WC politics. That's a 50/50 shot that half the benefit of taking her is wiped away and Nemesis wasted years of work recruiting a nobody.
That isn't Lara's style.
Papa Raith had taken care of several sons before Thomas and probably planned on taking care of several more in the coming centuries. Nemesis doesn't need to be involved for that.
Yes, but that was before Margaret's curse, Papa Raith isn't the man he used to be. He wasn't going to use Nemesis to take out Thomas, but use Thomas by way of Justine..
-
She became worth it the moment she became kine for the immediate Raith family.. Big clue here, she's insane, but feeding on her makes her sane?
I'm sure there are dozens of them at any given time. Papa Raith liked to surround himself with them as bodyguards before BR. Why not porn star Bobby that Inari fell in love with too? He'd be the boyfriend of Harry's brother's sister. Maybe Nemesis's plan to install him as the Merlin's personal butler just hasn't come to fruition yet.
But Maeve was infected, not possessed apparently.. As far as that goes, Maeve never had a "handle" as you call it on Harry, but Thomas did as of Grave Peril.
Maeve is important completely independently of Harry. The Winter Lady is a great target to wreak havoc on the balance of reality. A mortal Raith girlfriend is not if that's the best credentials she's got.
Nemesis has the time... All that time it has someone on the inside, watching.. Hence the name HE WHO WALKS BESIDE, that is someone that goes along, they don't interfere they are just there watching and taking in information.
But at the time you are proposing Justine was taken, she wasn't on the inside watching. That's the whole point. She's not worth taking before she was in a good position to do that.
Or because Justine was already possessed, Susan couldn't have fed on her if she wanted to.
Go read the end of GP. Justine was fed on by the other rampires. She shows Harry the bite marks.
That isn't Lara's style.
It would have been kind, and Lara is sometimes quietly human when nobody is looking.
Yes, but that was before Margaret's curse, Papa Raith isn't the man he used to be. He wasn't going to use Nemesis to take out Thomas, but use Thomas by way of Justine..
Papa Raith never fed on his sons, only his daughters. Nothing changed there post-death curse.
-
She became worth it the moment she became kine for the immediate Raith family.. Big clue here, she's insane, but feeding on her makes her sane?But Maeve was infected, not possessed apparently.. As far as that goes, Maeve never had a "handle" as you call it on Harry, but Thomas did as of Grave Peril.Nemesis has the time... All that time it has someone on the inside, watching.. Hence the name HE WHO WALKS BESIDE, that is someone that goes along, they don't interfere they are just there watching and taking in information.Or because Justine was already possessed, Susan couldn't have fed on her if she wanted to.That isn't Lara's style.Yes, but that was before Margaret's curse, Papa Raith isn't the man he used to be. He wasn't going to use Nemesis to take out Thomas, but use Thomas by way of Justine..
As a side comment, the feeding doesn't make her sane. It lessens her emotions. Justine apparently suffers from a form of schizophrenia or related disease that disallows emotional regulation. Thomas "eats" her to normal, as if he's constantly excising an emotional cancer that's constantly growing. I thought it was a brilliant tidbit for a "nice" Whampire.
The suspicious bit is her sudden sanity "due to medication". I lean towards Justine never recovered from that near-fatal feeding: Nemesis offered her "healing" from it so she could be with Thomas. My 2 cents.
Also, in general: True Love protection takes two people who engaged in an act of true love. They both have to love the other, or it doesn't take. Which makes the act of true love that created their bond being Justine being willing to offer herself to Thomas to heal him and Thomas rejecting it at the last moment- very Butcher to find a way to make rejection an expression of true love.
But it's a two way street- Justine can't have been faking. If it wasn't real from her, the protection wouldn't have manifested.
-
But it's a two way street- Justine can't have been faking. If it wasn't real from her, the protection wouldn't have manifested.
Justine may not have, but once she was possessed, He Who Walks Beside could...