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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: groinkick on June 19, 2021, 02:32:26 AM
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Neither Eb, nor Harry could touch Raith with magic. It was like it just slipped off of him. Maggie on the other hand cut his privates of (in a sense). She hit him where it hurts most. His ability to have pleasure, both physical, and his love of controlling women. She destroyed him. Now either she targeted him in a different way than Eb hadn't thought of, had help (from Leah), or Raith didn't get that magical protection until after he got neutered. He may have made a deal with a certain Outsider, demon, or Drakul for some sort of protection.. The red gem he had maybe?
So anyways do you think he's had that protection for a long time, and Maggie got him regardless, or do you think it was after she hit him that he got it? Maybe Nemesis took advantage of his weakness, and fear to get a foothold in reality.
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I assume before, because Maggie had to do something clever and indirect instead of overtly destructive. She probably knew what she was getting around.
Seeing as it's powered by anchoring to her two sons, I wonder if her clever trick was that one of the batteries was Lord Raith's son and the other was a latent Starborn. It would make a degree of sense, especially if the sponsor was indeed an Outsider. It would be interesting to see if Harry can tag Lord Raith directly now that he's (mostly?) activated as a Starborn, and Eb's reaction if so.
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I don't think Raith bothers with protection, he's had like, a bunch of kids despite being a White Court vampire after all.
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I assume before, because Maggie had to do something clever and indirect instead of overtly destructive. She probably knew what she was getting around.
Seeing as it's powered by anchoring to her two sons, I wonder if her clever trick was that one of the batteries was Lord Raith's son and the other was a latent Starborn. It would make a degree of sense, especially if the sponsor was indeed an Outsider. It would be interesting to see if Harry can tag Lord Raith directly now that he's (mostly?) activated as a Starborn, and Eb's reaction if so.
Maybe but Jim made it sound like she did what she did with purpose.. Said if she had killed him, the White Court would have replaced him while she basically sandbagged them for over 30 years... Before it happened they were growing in power (much like now that Lara has taken over), but after her curse, they stagnated. He focused on defense instead of expansion..
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Maybe but Jim made it sound like she did what she did with purpose.. Said if she had killed him, the White Court would have replaced him while she basically sandbagged them for over 30 years... Before it happened they were growing in power (much like now that Lara has taken over), but after her curse, they stagnated. He focused on defense instead of expansion..
I have read that woj. Jim did not talk about Margaret’s purpose with the curse, he talked about the effect it had. It might have been the same but it does not have to be.
Margaret lived with him for some time and had time to study him. She probably could not kill him with her death curse directly and she knew.
She went for what she could do. But she might have seen that it was the best option as well to protect Thomas.
And also it made him suffer. That too. Far more than just killing him.
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I have read that woj. Jim did not talk about Margaret’s purpose with the curse, he talked about the effect it had. It might have been the same but it does not have to be.
Margaret lived with him for some time and had time to study him. She probably could not kill him with her death curse directly and she knew.
She went for what she could do. But she might have seen that it was the best option as well to protect Thomas.
And also it made him suffer. That too. Far more than just killing him.
I also don't totally buy that it was a death curse. Or if it was, it was thought out and set up to be triggered by her death, so an indirect death curse. Or she may have set it up so that if he killed Thomas in his anger at her after she left, it would still trigger. Because it is rather cold that she'd leave her son when she went off with Malcolm. Raith had to have known she would have thrown her cruse at him when he killed her, and apparently he thought he was immune to that, but whatever she did, it was effective and caught him totally by surprise.
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I mean from what's been hinted at about Mama Dresden, her being a cold hard bitch isn't much if a surprise- and even if it was, I don't think that you can really fault her for leaving Thomas behind, after all that escape would have been difficult enough without a toddler under one arm.
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I also don't totally buy that it was a death curse. Or if it was, it was thought out and set up to be triggered by her death, so an indirect death curse. Or she may have set it up so that if he killed Thomas in his anger at her after she left, it would still trigger. Because it is rather cold that she'd leave her son when she went off with Malcolm. Raith had to have known she would have thrown her cruse at him when he killed her, and apparently he thought he was immune to that, but whatever she did, it was effective and caught him totally by surprise.
Jim said it was Margaret’s dead curse so in his view it was. She might have done some prep work though.
I do not think taking Thomas with her would have been an option, he would have become a vampire after all. I also do not think it was a cold decision either. It was what she thought was best for him.
Raith doubtlessly thought he was immune to her dead curse and he might have handled a few death curses in the past but Margaret was clever and could study him.
I am still not sure Margaret met Malcolm before she left. We do not have a clear time table here. I always thought they met shortly after.
But that depends also on how much freedom of movement she had when she was in Raiths power. Could she meet people?
I mean from what's been hinted at about Mama Dresden, her being a cold hard bitch isn't much if a surprise- and even if it was, I don't think that you can really fault her for leaving Thomas behind, after all that escape would have been difficult enough without a toddler under one arm.
Actually from what we know about her relatives and what we hear from people Margaret being overly emotional is just as likely.
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True to an extent, but from what we know of the crowd she ran with, she'd have needed to be a pretty hard person.
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True to an extent, but from what we know of the crowd she ran with, she'd have needed to be a pretty hard person.
Oh crap, I feel another thread coming on... ::) Yeah, sort of fits with this, but on the other hand would totally hijack this one... :o
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True to an extent, but from what we know of the crowd she ran with, she'd have needed to be a pretty hard person.
A pretty explosive personality would work as well. People behave careful around her and think she is crazy. Actually making people think you are crazy enough can be a good self defence strategy. It signals you are prepared to run considerable risks for revenge.
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A pretty explosive personality would work as well. People behave careful around her and think she is crazy. Actually making people think you are crazy enough can be a good self defence strategy. It signals you are prepared to run considerable risks for revenge.
Or reflects on the extreme prejudice of the White Council, they tend to think that anyone who doesn't conform to their views could be a warlock or insane.
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I'm in the camp that says Raith made a deal with Beside for protection at a very young age, which helped him ascend to power centuries ago.
I think Maggie's curse worked because it targeted his Wamp demon and not him. I'm guessing he made the deal for protection for himself, and the demon is separate enough that it wasn't included in the umbrella because of some technicality.
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Margaret may well have prepared a death curse...but does that make it not a death curse? Remember, what Lord Raith killed her with was an Outsider-powered curse on the level of the Barrabus curse. It just forces the universe to kill the target, and clearly Margaret didn't have time to stop it (assuming she could) or get behind any defences. Harry had to redirect the energy and it's hinted that it tainted him. Margaret was also giving birth I believe so she was a fairly vulnerable in that moment. She probably was doing all she could to shield her child.
Back to the OP -
Yes, I believe he has had it a while. Not 2000 years probably though. Maybe since Hastings. Jim said Lord Raith has been involved in the last couple of cycles of the game, so maybe just before Hastings at minimum. He learned about it and now wants to be a player and failed to be the last few times. Ebenezar also believes the reason Raith rules the White Court is likely due to his protection. Which has a huge hole as we know, his demon. The Hunger isn't protected which allowed Maggie to curse him, and allowed Lara to control him/feed from him.
I'm in the camp that says Raith made a deal with Beside for protection at a very young age, which helped him ascend to power centuries ago.
I think Maggie's curse worked because it targeted his Wamp demon and not him. I'm guessing he made the deal for protection for himself, and the demon is separate enough that it wasn't included in the umbrella because of some technicality.
Why do you think He Who Walks Beside? I assumed it was Behind if anything because that's the one he summons in Death Masks (I think).
Agree about the curse. I think that Death Masks actually says that's how Maggie made the curse stick. I suspect the reason the Hunger wasn't protected is because like all such deals, they're often never as good as they seem. Maybe the Outsider's wanted to leave a vulnerability to a potential competitor. Maybe they can't protect the Hunger at all. Impossible to say without more information.
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Why do you think He Who Walks Beside? I assumed it was Behind if anything because that's the one he summons in Death Masks (I think).
Agree about the curse. I think that Death Masks actually says that's how Maggie made the curse stick. I suspect the reason the Hunger wasn't protected is because like all such deals, they're often never as good as they seem. Maybe the Outsider's wanted to leave a vulnerability to a potential competitor. Maybe they can't protect the Hunger at all. Impossible to say without more information.
I asked JB on Twitter a few years back if the human body Before was using in Cold Days was what was left of Vitto Malvora after the battle in Raith Deeps. He tongue-in-cheek said it was. (The mental whammy Vitto used and the mental whammy Before used were almost identical, so it fits).
I'm not sure that Behind needs a host body. He didn't seem to have one in the Ghost Story flashback. He temporary used Marge as one to communicate in Blood Rites, but then evacuated it and hasn't been seen since.
It makes sense to me that Before and Behind both use just one body at a time, but Beside uses multiple. And what better body to use than a Wamp that thinks he's using you for protection, when he's actually unknowingly providing you with the ultimate safe body to hide in.
And Beside being "trapped" in Raith's shell gives a deeper purpose to Cowl and Vitto/Before going all out to take over the Wamps in Blood Rites. They were basically trying to free him (assuming he was trapped in the body and couldn't leave due to the nature of the deal with Raith).
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That...makes a lot of sense. I really like it. I have no idea if Jim will do that but I like it.
Only snag is that magic seems totally negated on Lord Raith, whereas the Before and Behind are still a little vulnerable to magic. I am not sure why Beside's central host body (Lord Raith in your theory) would be more protected than the others.
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I'm in the camp that says Raith made a deal with Beside for protection at a very young age, which helped him ascend to power centuries ago.
I think Maggie's curse worked because it targeted his Wamp demon and not him. I'm guessing he made the deal for protection for himself, and the demon is separate enough that it wasn't included in the umbrella because of some technicality.
This!
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That...makes a lot of sense. I really like it. I have no idea if Jim will do that but I like it.
Only snag is that magic seems totally negated on Lord Raith, whereas the Before and Behind are still a little vulnerable to magic. I am not sure why Beside's central host body (Lord Raith in your theory) would be more protected than the others.
I can speculate that more effort went into Raith's protection than normal host bodies, simply because of the importance of having that anchor in reality. If another Before, Beside, or Behind demon is banished, it's no big deal, because Raith can summon them back. He's the King to protect at all costs, so they put a little extra juice into it.
As for Harry's power failing against him in Blood Rites, it could be that the protection lies beyond the mortal dimension, and Harry's power never hit the moving parts; it just hit the void that shunts the magic off to wherever it won't harm Raith.
But it could also be due to the inconsistency of Harry's starborn power. He killed Behind as a teenager without knowing he couldn't; he couldn't shake off Before's whammy in Blood Rites on his own, but he could after he was told he could and with Lash's help; he hit Before with fire in Mac's bar and Before deflected most of arguably the most powerful shot we've seen Harry throw at that point; Harry hits Sith with power that just sends him flying; then he one-shots Before with a gun and power to the head, destroying the host body and sending Before running while screaming in agony.
Sometimes it works well, sometimes it doesn't.
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As for Harry's power failing against him in Blood Rites, it could be that the protection lies beyond the mortal dimension, and Harry's power never hit the moving parts; it just hit the void that shunts the magic off to wherever it won't harm Raith.
Yeah, I am inclined to think there is a secret to it, Margaret figured out part of it. When he did try to kill Raith, Harry had no clue what he is nor half the skills he has now.
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I can speculate that more effort went into Raith's protection than normal host bodies, simply because of the importance of having that anchor in reality. If another Before, Beside, or Behind demon is banished, it's no big deal, because Raith can summon them back. He's the King to protect at all costs, so they put a little extra juice into it.
As for Harry's power failing against him in Blood Rites, it could be that the protection lies beyond the mortal dimension, and Harry's power never hit the moving parts; it just hit the void that shunts the magic off to wherever it won't harm Raith.
But it could also be due to the inconsistency of Harry's starborn power. He killed Behind as a teenager without knowing he couldn't; he couldn't shake off Before's whammy in Blood Rites on his own, but he could after he was told he could and with Lash's help; he hit Before with fire in Mac's bar and Before deflected most of arguably the most powerful shot we've seen Harry throw at that point; Harry hits Sith with power that just sends him flying; then he one-shots Before with a gun and power to the head, destroying the host body and sending Before running while screaming in agony.
Sometimes it works well, sometimes it doesn't.
Hmm. Not sure that adds up totally with Raith...unless he was the centrepiece of all their plans. Raith could be the anchor for all three Walkers. But I would assume he would be stronger. Clearly they also possess other bodies too and he shows no sign of being possessed by Before or Behind.
Sadly I put this down to inconsistencies in the writing itself as much as in-universe reasons. Jim isn't immune to the main problem of fantasy story telling: there is always a trade-off between consistency of established in-universe rules and conventions, and the conventions of writing itself. Yes, great writers seem to get it right more often but none of them get it right all the time, and not even most of the time. It's a very difficult thing.
The in-universe reasons you gave are as good as any. There is a bit of magic feather stuff with Harry.
Also just as an aside I meant Blood Rites not Death Masks before, totally forgot that book was in there.
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Hmm. Not sure that adds up totally with Raith...unless he was the centrepiece of all their plans. Raith could be the anchor for all three Walkers. But I would assume he would be stronger. Clearly they also possess other bodies too and he shows no sign of being possessed by Before or Behind.
Sadly I put this down to inconsistencies in the writing itself as much as in-universe reasons. Jim isn't immune to the main problem of fantasy story telling: there is always a trade-off between consistency of established in-universe rules and conventions, and the conventions of writing itself. Yes, great writers seem to get it right more often but none of them get it right all the time, and not even most of the time. It's a very difficult thing.
The in-universe reasons you gave are as good as any. There is a bit of magic feather stuff with Harry.
Also just as an aside I meant Blood Rites not Death Masks before, totally forgot that book was in there.
I don't mean that he's possessed by all of them. I mean after spending millennia hoping mortals would summon them in ways that would give the Walkers the free rein to do what they need to do, they've suddenly got a willing partner in young Lord Rath.
Raith makes the bargain with Beside. In return, he's safer than any other Wamp, and with the knowledge and power at his disposal, he becomes King.
In return, all he had to do was allow Beside to bond part of his power to Raith (back-seat possession). Then, either with Raith's willing cooperation or by subtle unknown manipulation, Beside has Raith summon Before and Behind whenever they're banished or killed.
Suddenly the Walkers are a nightmare for the guardians of reality, who can never seem to find a way to get rid of them. They seem to be everywhere, and take on the appearance of an all-seeing, all-powerful Nemesis.
No-one ever suspects the White King, because he's a paragon of stability and order. He keeps things the way they've always been, and he doesn't rock the boat. Nemesis is known for causing chaos in its infiltration, and there's no chaos there.
Beside just rides his coattails, using him as a catspaw in the long game for centuries.
Right up until Maggie realizes his secret. Then it all falls apart. She threatens to out him, so he threatens Thomas. She agrees to keep his secret, but leaves. Then she feels a curse coming at her and suspects Raith, or wants to protect Thomas, so she uses her prepared death curse to geld him.
Now Raith can't feed, so he stops using magic that he can't replenish. He stops summoning Outsiders, and has to train mortals like DuMorne and Cowl and Madge how to do it instead.
Then Raith is made into a puppet, and there's no more summoning or training. But Beside still has him as an anchor to reality, and might have the ability to take control of him if need be. He doesn't, because once he does, the risk of discovery goes up. So he just bides his time and uses other puppets.
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Maybe but Jim made it sound like she did what she did with purpose.. Said if she had killed him, the White Court would have replaced him while she basically sandbagged them for over 30 years... Before it happened they were growing in power (much like now that Lara has taken over), but after her curse, they stagnated. He focused on defense instead of expansion..
They weren't just stagnating, Raith was getting paranoid and wiping out potential rivals like Madrigal's dad over those 30 years, I'd wager a lot of younger members of the court got promotions in those few decades between her death curse and Blood Rites.
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Sadly I put this down to inconsistencies in the writing itself as much as in-universe reasons. Jim isn't immune to the main problem of fantasy story telling: there is always a trade-off between consistency of established in-universe rules and conventions, and the conventions of writing itself. Yes, great writers seem to get it right more often but none of them get it right all the time, and not even most of the time. It's a very difficult thing.
I think that also comes with trying to write such a long series over so many years. Yes, he has great Beta readers to keep him on track, but still it is a problem.