ParanetOnline
The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: groinkick on June 12, 2021, 08:08:22 PM
-
It's been hinted by Drakul, Mab, and others that Harry was created as a weapon. So his being born was not by accident but by design. The thing that doesn't make sense to me is that if he was created, and he is important (to someone, somewhere), the hasn't been taken very good care of. I mean from the sound of it he is some sort of super commodity. His life has been in constant danger, why would someone go to the trouble to having him created, only to discard him???
I don't know but it has me wondering if maybe the Council has a "golden boy" (or girl) who they think is a saint (not literally), and that Harry is the pain they wish had never been created.... So this golden child is being pampered, and trained for the purpose of the Stars and Stones, and will ultimately be the real danger while Harry the hellion will be the hero..
-
It's been hinted by Drakul, Mab, and others that Harry was created as a weapon. So his being born was not by accident but by design. The thing that doesn't make sense to me is that if he was created, and he is important (to someone, somewhere), the hasn't been taken very good care of. I mean from the sound of it he is some sort of super commodity. His life has been in constant danger, why would someone go to the trouble to having him created, only to discard him???
I don't know but it has me wondering if maybe the Council has a "golden boy" (or girl) who they think is a saint (not literally), and that Harry is the pain they wish had never been created.... So this golden child is being pampered, and trained for the purpose of the Stars and Stones, and will ultimately be the real danger while Harry the hellion will be the hero..
Well, he was meant to be a weapon, and he is that, however after Margaret met Malcolm, her outlook changed and she threw them all a real curve ball. Now it is possible that your "golden child" is Elaine.. Justin raised her to be an enforcer as well, supposedly successfully enthralls her, though there are hints from Summer Knight and Harry's own flashbacks that she may have mostly played along and wasn't enthralled at all. After Harry kills Justin, he is left holding the bag to be captured by the Wardens, while she runs off to hide in the Summer Court. She hides out in the Summer Court, maybe, maybe not infecting Aurora, leaving Harry thinking he killed her too. She does help him at the end of Summer Knight and Aurora is killed. Then she goes under the radar, gets a college degree and messes with the Paranet a little.. My point? She never seems to pay a price for anything, the Wardens never have caught on to her, Titania hasn't realized that Elaine was of some help to Harry in the killing of her beloved daughter... Someone is supporting her and protecting her, when last we saw her she seemed to be living a comfortable life... She could be your golden Child, hiding in plain sight.
-
I could see the Council arranging for Elaine, only to be surprised their choice of mentor for her was really a bad guy, and she's now "dead" and they're grudgingly stuck with Harry instead. She's the one they wanted, but they don't know she's alive, and they don't want to *not* have one, and Young Harry is their only option.
I could also see them looking for other options of that age, and testing everyone. And maybe Langtry found one, and has them squirreled away in secret. But even then they'd keep Harry as the expendable, visible tool that others might target thinking he's their only ace.
-
I could see the Council arranging for Elaine, only to be surprised their choice of mentor for her was really a bad guy, and she's now "dead" and they're grudgingly stuck with Harry instead. She's the one they wanted, but they don't know she's alive, and they don't want to *not* have one, and Young Harry is their only option.
I could also see them looking for other options of that age, and testing everyone. And maybe Langtry found one, and has them squirreled away in secret. But even then they'd keep Harry as the expendable, visible tool that others might target thinking he's their only ace.
Or the made the arrangements all along for her to go off to the Summer Court? How soon did they put that hood over Harry's head? How quick were they to get there after the event? What is Justin
was always supposed to mentor both Harry and Elaine, he was a retired Warden after all, the kicker there is Justin got infested at some point, instead of raising a golden child for the Council, he was raising a ringer for Nemeses.. Margaret foiled that one when she chose Harry's father, however she couldn't have foreseen Malcolm's murder.
-
It's been hinted by Drakul, Mab, and others that Harry was created as a weapon. So his being born was not by accident but by design. The thing that doesn't make sense to me is that if he was created, and he is important (to someone, somewhere), the hasn't been taken very good care of. I mean from the sound of it he is some sort of super commodity. His life has been in constant danger, why would someone go to the trouble to having him created, only to discard him???
I don't know but it has me wondering if maybe the Council has a "golden boy" (or girl) who they think is a saint (not literally), and that Harry is the pain they wish had never been created.... So this golden child is being pampered, and trained for the purpose of the Stars and Stones, and will ultimately be the real danger while Harry the hellion will be the hero..
I pointed out in my thread the road so far that all of this for Harry was possibly started by Lord Raith. He was the one with the knowledge, because of his library and experiencing it at least twice before, to know how to create a Starborn. My guess is that Elaine was a happy possible coincidence that Justin found with the information that he got with his meetings with Lord Raith and Margaret.
-
Another possibility is that part of the point is pressure testing. Perhaps it's a Highlander-type situation.
Maybe you don't want ANY old star born. You want the right one. The toughest one. The one who has the will.
Many times in the series it appears Harry is being tested, prepared, tempered. His whole interactions with the Mothers, with He Who Walks Behind, even Uriel (from a very different angle) suggest they are trying to teach Harry and test him out. Interestingly, all similar level beings. But even small interactions with mysterious figures like Cowl.
I think there is a very good reason that while there were forty thousand originally (in this cycle) there are very few left.
-
Here is what seems to be contradictory to me from Drakul ""I would tell you to ask of your own White Council what they aren't telling you, what they bred you for, and what they expect you to do"
This just doesn't seem correct... Maggie was considered crazy by the Council, I don't see the Council trusting her with something like this, and yet based on what Drakul said, it sounds like the White Council was behind Harry being born.
Again if the Council was behind Dresden being created, why oh why would they treat him so horribly, pushing him away instead of working with him? Trying to bring him into the Council as an ally instead of pushing him away as an adversary since the beginning...
Anyone have any ideas? Maybe I'm not connecting the dots correctly.
-
Breeding isn't just about birth. It's also about training. The WCouncil has pushed him all his magical life. Justin was still part of it till his death. So even though, as I said before, Lord Raith may have got the ball rolling on Harry's birth, after Margaret's death, when Justin picked him up, he was being trained by the Council.
-
Breeding isn't just about birth. It's also about training. The WCouncil has pushed him all his magical life. Justin was still part of it till his death. So even though, as I said before, Lord Raith may have got the ball rolling on Harry's birth, after Margaret's death, when Justin picked him up, he was being trained by the Council.
Nearly having his head chopped off, being bullied, being nearly kicked out, and then then ultimately kicked out doesn't really seem like they are training, or preparing him... Unless their ultimate goal is for him to destroy them, they don't seem to have done much with him other than piss him off.
-
Here is what seems to be contradictory to me from Drakul ""I would tell you to ask of your own White Council what they aren't telling you, what they bred you for, and what they expect you to do"
This just doesn't seem correct... Maggie was considered crazy by the Council, I don't see the Council trusting her with something like this, and yet based on what Drakul said, it sounds like the White Council was behind Harry being born.
Again if the Council was behind Dresden being created, why oh why would they treat him so horribly, pushing him away instead of working with him? Trying to bring him into the Council as an ally instead of pushing him away as an adversary since the beginning...
Anyone have any ideas? Maybe I'm not connecting the dots correctly.
You want to guarantee a wizard talent starborn.
Talent is one part genetic and one part proximity- only Molly was born with a gift from proximity to Charity's recently active gift.
If you have an active female wizard actively using her gift during pregnancy, would seem to be "best case" in that scenario- power to spark power with a genetic predisposition requirement.
That's part 1- an active wizardess of childbearing age.
Part 2: If the window is only proximally predictable, but the moment is detectable, you need to induce labor of an at-term child.
That means you have two options: predict the next starborn event to within 1 month- or be able to manipulate the objective time duration of your pregnancy. Is that possible? With sophisticated use of Nevernever "fast time"/"slow time" zones, you can dilate or compress a pregnancy as much as needed.
So your pregnant wizardness, still young enough for childbearing, needs to be a master at finding Ways and moving between them. And ruthless enough to manipulate her unborn children thst way.
You had one candidate they could work through, possibly in exchange for a pardon.
And she made some kind of deal with the Leanansidhe
-
This just doesn't seem correct... Maggie was considered crazy by the Council, I don't see the Council trusting her with something like this, and yet based on what Drakul said, it sounds like the White Council was behind Harry being born.
I doubt that they were behind Harry being born, but they were behind someone they could control being born. Margaret, knew of their breeding program, thought it was bunk and didn't agree with it at all. Remember what Lash told Harry in White Night, don't have time to look up the exact quote, but when she met Malcolm, her attitude changed, but she decided to produce a star child and Malcolm went along with the idea. Chauncy also told Harry that Margaret changed and they could no longer get her for their own. You know the old expression, "fighting fire, with fire"? Maybe that is what the Council was hoping for, but it isn't exactly what they got in Harry, and every time they see him they see Margaret flipping the bird at them.
-
Breeding isn't just about birth. It's also about training. The WCouncil has pushed him all his magical life. Justin was still part of it till his death. So even though, as I said before, Lord Raith may have got the ball rolling on Harry's birth, after Margaret's death, when Justin picked him up, he was being trained by the Council.
Agreed, glad you said it as I was going to.
Here is what seems to be contradictory to me from Drakul ""I would tell you to ask of your own White Council what they aren't telling you, what they bred you for, and what they expect you to do"
This just doesn't seem correct... Maggie was considered crazy by the Council, I don't see the Council trusting her with something like this, and yet based on what Drakul said, it sounds like the White Council was behind Harry being born.
Again if the Council was behind Dresden being created, why oh why would they treat him so horribly, pushing him away instead of working with him? Trying to bring him into the Council as an ally instead of pushing him away as an adversary since the beginning...
Anyone have any ideas? Maybe I'm not connecting the dots correctly.
Don't forget, Morgan revealed part of the reason everyone is so hard on him: they suspect him of being a creature of Nemesis/being corrupted by Justin/being a monster too terrible to let live.
Just because they wanted a starborn, just because they hoped to use him, doesn't mean that it didn't have enormous potential to backfire.
-
Just because they wanted a starborn, just because they hoped to use him, doesn't mean that it didn't have enormous potential to backfire.
Which it did because of Margaret... Then again we don't know the full skinny on Elaine, I still think someone is protecting her and supporting her, for their own purposes.
-
Which it did because of Margaret... Then again we don't know the full skinny on Elaine, I still think someone is protecting her and supporting her, for their own purposes.
Yeah, Cowl is protecting Kumori Elaine. :o
-
Yeah, Cowl is protecting Kumori Elaine. :o
Lets say Justin really is dead (I suspect he's a BCV so he is both DED and still a threat), who would Elaine be working with do you think? The only clue I think they gave about Cowl was that his wrists were scarred up.
-
Lets say Justin really is dead (I suspect he's a BCV so he is both DED and still a threat), who would Elaine be working with do you think? The only clue I think they gave about Cowl was that his wrists were scarred up.
That would make an interesting twist, also since Justin's version of Bob, was Evil Bob, he'd have free access to Kemmler's knowledge. It wasn't until Harry got a hold of him that Bob had a personality change, locked away the knowledge, until Harry forced him to dredge it up in Dead Beat, so Justin would have had access. So when you look at it in that light, yeah, Harry killed him, but he came back from the dead as Cowl, it is possible. However I don't buy that Elaine is Kumori.
-
That would make an interesting twist, also since Justin's version of Bob, was Evil Bob, he'd have free access to Kemmler's knowledge. It wasn't until Harry got a hold of him that Bob had a personality change, locked away the knowledge, until Harry forced him to dredge it up in Dead Beat, so Justin would have had access. So when you look at it in that light, yeah, Harry killed him, but he came back from the dead as Cowl, it is possible. However I don't buy that Elaine is Kumori.
Especially because Mouse would have tried to warn Harry because he got a chance to get up close and smell both of them.
-
Lets say Justin really is dead (I suspect he's a BCV so he is both DED and still a threat), who would Elaine be working with do you think? The only clue I think they gave about Cowl was that his wrists were scarred up.
Sarissa. Does anyone really think she could get rid of that debt so easily?
-
Sarissa. Do anyone really think she could get rid of that debt so easily?
Actually we don't know, she hasn't been Summer Lady all that long, and before the events of Cold Days she was living mostly as a mortal woman. Also as we've learned from Mab, and I assume that Sarrissa would have as well, the Fae don't call in or disperse debts until the time is right and to their best advantage.
-
Lets say Justin really is dead (I suspect he's a BCV so he is both DED and still a threat), who would Elaine be working with do you think? The only clue I think they gave about Cowl was that his wrists were scarred up.
I think Cowl scouted the Sidhe Courts and found Elaine with Summer. I think she chaffed at being Aurora's pet, and he offered her an out and a partnership.
My theory is that Cowl made vector gifts for Bianca to give to both Sidhe Courts as part of her elevation. I think we saw Bianca give Lea hers on-screen, and I think Elaine gave Aurora the other. Aurora was Nemfected, etc, etc, and then she dies and Elaine is "debt free".
Afterwards, Elaine and Cowl decide to continue working together, both wanting power and freedom from the Council. She's adamant about not being controlled, so he gives her free rein. He continues her training, he helps keep her away from the Council, and she helps him plot to destroy or overthrow the Council so she doesn't have to spend 500+ years looking over her shoulder.
-
I think Cowl scouted the Sidhe Courts and found Elaine with Summer. I think she chaffed at being Aurora's pet, and he offered her an out and a partnership.
My theory is that Cowl made vector gifts for Bianca to give to both Sidhe Courts as part of her elevation. I think we saw Bianca give Lea hers on-screen, and I think Elaine gave Aurora the other. Aurora was Nemfected, etc, etc, and then she dies and Elaine is "debt free".
Afterwards, Elaine and Cowl decide to continue working together, both wanting power and freedom from the Council. She's adamant about not being controlled, so he gives her free rein. He continues her training, he helps keep her away from the Council, and she helps him plot to destroy or overthrow the Council so she doesn't have to spend 500+ years looking over her shoulder.
Sounds plausible, or someone else is looking after her, I find it hard to believe if she really is a star born like Harry is, someone doesn't know what she is and is trying to use her for their own purpose if they can.
-
Here is what seems to be contradictory to me from Drakul ""I would tell you to ask of your own White Council what they aren't telling you, what they bred you for, and what they expect you to do"
This just doesn't seem correct... Maggie was considered crazy by the Council, I don't see the Council trusting her with something like this, and yet based on what Drakul said, it sounds like the White Council was behind Harry being born.
Drakul is so far above mortals he probably doesn't pay a lot of attention to the difference between a cabal of shady wizards (Maggie, Justin, possibly Cowl and Peabody and some other unsavory buddies) and the official Council. Some wizards trying to instigate a starborn? Must be a Council weapons-breeding program. As a baddie, it's natural to assume other supernatural nation-states do evil thing on an official capacity, rather than a rogues gallery.
-
Q: How do you forge a weapon?
A: You heat the raw material to just short of the point of destruction then beat the hell out of it with a harder, heavier object to shape it into the desired form.
First Justin and HWWB, then Lea, then the White Council and/or Wardens were (theoretically) manipulated into being the hammers that pounded Harry into the desired form.
If there's a guiding hand behind the events in Harry's early life, the person behind this theoretical plan isn't protecting Harry because s/he is using the same underlying logic that Lea uses to explain the harshness of her training methods with Molly in Ghost Story.
-
At the time of Harry's conception/birth, the Council could have been in favor of Margaret having a Starborn baby, but later, there was a political shift, and the Council's view changed. Do we know how long Langtry has been The Merlin for? Could he have taken over around the time of Harry's birth, causing the change in political mindset?
-
A: You heat the raw material to just short of the point of destruction then beat the hell out of it with a harder, heavier object to shape it into the desired form.
That is what is generally thought, however forging a good strong weapon is a lot more complicated. Heat it too hot or too long, you burn up the metal. There are so many steps, do it right and you have a weapon that is strong, sharp, flexible, and it will kill.. Mess up any of those steps, the blade won't harden, some iron cannot be hardened into steel.. Mess up a step, the blade warps, develops cracks, the blade shatters upon testing. Harry has been forged and tempered over the years, but now the quality of his steel is being tested, will he shatter, warp, or fail to harden? Or is he strong, sharp, flexible, and a killer if need be?
-
groinkick is making an unwarranted assumption. I don't know that the Council ever thought Maggie was crazy.
We have one place in the text where all the players were at a table and talking. At that meeting where Maggie pitched an idea. Eb said he didn't want whatever and that she shouldn't either, which isn't the same as saying the Council might not be interested. What is interesting about the dinner is the attendees, the Blackstaff, the Reds, Papa Raith and Maggie.
-
groinkick is making an unwarranted assumption. I don't know that the Council ever thought Maggie was crazy.
We have one place in the text where all the players were at a table and talking. At that meeting where Maggie pitched an idea. Eb said he didn't want whatever and that she shouldn't either, which isn't the same as saying the Council might not be interested. What is interesting about the dinner is the attendees, the Blackstaff, the Reds, Papa Raith and Maggie.
It's just speculation, but Eb also called Justin an associate of Maggie's, so I suspect he was there as well.
-
groinkick is making an unwarranted assumption. I don't know that the Council ever thought Maggie was crazy.
no.
Aug 6, 2011
Question: Maggie LeFay, Morgan LeFay, is that a generational name, are they related?
Jim: No, the “LeFay” is something that gets added as an honorific in the wizarding community, it’s one of those kind of mixed names that you give somebody that is sort of a name that she’s earned, so it’s a bit of status, and it also means you’re insane. Which everybody thought Harry’s mom was, being a big-time explorer of Ways and hanging out with Faeries and generally kind of doing things that most wizards considered to be pretty crazily, stupidly dangerous. When you’re somebody who can live for three or four hundred years as long as nothing goes wrong, you tend to be a little conservative, really, you get a lot of benefit from that. And certainly, in Maggie’s case, she was bucking the trend, and we’ll probably get into a little bit more of why she was doing that later in the books.
Q. Was Harry’s mom related to Morgan LeFay?
A. No, LeFay is simply a mark of honor. And a mark of insanity.
June 15, 2011
I mean, there’s more than one reason Maggie the elder got dubbed “LeFay.” Sure, it was because she was on good terms with the faeries, and sure it was because she could travel all over the world in very brief amounts of time the way some of the fae can. But remember that “fay” or “fey” is also an old word for “crazy.”
-
I stand corrected. Yet the text is what it is.
-
I stand corrected. Yet the text is what it is.
Yeah the books don't have it. I should probably site the source when I make certain statements.
-
Jim: No, the “LeFay” is something that gets added as an honorific in the wizarding community, it’s one of those kind of mixed names that you give somebody that is sort of a name that she’s earned, so it’s a bit of status, and it also means you’re insane. Which everybody thought Harry’s mom was, being a big-time explorer of Ways and hanging out with Faeries and generally kind of doing things that most wizards considered to be pretty crazily, stupidly dangerous. When you’re somebody who can live for three or four hundred years as long as nothing goes wrong, you tend to be a little conservative, really, you get a lot of benefit from that. And certainly, in Maggie’s case, she was bucking the trend, and we’ll probably get into a little bit more of why she was doing that later in the books.
Yeah, well, "thought was," and "is," are two different things...
-
Yeah the books don't have it. I should probably site the source when I make certain statements.
No, you were right and I was mistaken. But it appears that crazy or not Jim has decided to plot it that way.
-
Yeah, well, "thought was," and "is," are two different things...
I agree. I'd like to think she was crazy like a fox. After reading the small amount there is on her, I wish she was alive in the books. She sounds awesome.
-
She was not crazy when Harry saw her in his soul gaze with Thomas.
-
She was not crazy when Harry saw her in his soul gaze with Thomas.
She was not incoherent, that's not the same thing thing as not being crazy.
-
She was not incoherent, that's not the same thing thing as not being crazy.
No subtle signs either.
-
She was not incoherent, that's not the same thing thing as not being crazy.
No, it is not, however at the same time, from the time she met Malcolm she seems perfectly rational.
The Council may have given her the "insane" tag because she questioned everything about them..
-
No, it is not, however at the same time, from the time she met Malcolm she seems perfectly rational.
The Council may have given her the "insane" tag because she questioned everything about them..
Just white council propaganda because they wanted to kill her :)