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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: K.L.O.E. on June 08, 2021, 12:58:20 PM
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I'm trying to figure out whether it was Marcone's position as a signatory of the Accords and Harry's position as the Winter Knight that allowed them to summon banners or if it was actually their positions' as Baron and Wizard of Chicago?
Basically was it the Accords that empowered them or the city's faith in them?
Thoughts?
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I don't think Marcone got a banner, at least not in the way that Harry did.
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He did. He even acknowledged it in the conversation with Harry at the Accords meeting afterwards when Harry brought up his. Marcone got his as Baron of Chicago and Harry as Winter Knight because the battle was fought under Mab's aegis.
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I'm trying to figure out whether it was Marcone's position as a signatory of the Accords and Harry's position as the Winter Knight that allowed them to summon banners or if it was actually their positions' as Baron and Wizard of Chicago?
Basically was it the Accords that empowered them or the city's faith in them?
Thoughts?
On the one hand, Mab sort of says it's an optional-extra power Winter Knights can manifest. On the other hand, punk Marcone then does it too.
So to be frank, I have no idea. The 'faith' option explains Marcone (and Harry), but doesn't really explain Mab's comment. The Winter Knight Power idea explains Mab's comment, but not how Marcone did it.
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On the one hand, Mab sort of says it's an optional-extra power Winter Knights can manifest. On the other hand, punk Marcone then does it too.
So to be frank, I have no idea. The 'faith' option explains Marcone (and Harry), but doesn't really explain Mab's comment. The Winter Knight Power idea explains Mab's comment, but not how Marcone did it.
No, I think Namshiel explains it a bit better.. However Marcone's was way different, Harry got people to follow him and he felt the pain of each one who fought and died under Mab's Banner. That never happened in Marcone's case, he never felt squat. Charisma would explain a lot in the case of Marcone, and self confidence to stand up and mouth off at the peace talks because of the coin he was now playing host to.
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No, I think Namshiel explains it a bit better.. However Marcone's was way different, Harry got people to follow him and he felt the pain of each one who fought and died under Mab's Banner. That never happened in Marcone's case, he never felt squat. Charisma would explain a lot in the case of Marcone, and self confidence to stand up and mouth off at the peace talks because of the coin he was now playing host to.
I mean did Marcone not feel squat because he's cold blooded? Mab specifically mentions how Harry didn't embrace the cold and if Mab's magic generated the banners maybe Marcone did?
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I mean did Marcone not feel squat because he's cold blooded? Mab specifically mentions how Harry didn't embrace the cold and if Mab's magic generated the banners maybe Marcone did?
I don't think him being a cold hearted bastard has anything to do with it, I don't think it was the same kind of Banner. Harry's Banner generated by Mab, inspired courage among ordinary people to fight at his side. Harry's personal courage affected them, in turn he felt the price that it cost them to fight under his Banner. The odd thing about Marcone is supposedly he loves Chicago can cares about it's people, yet even if he did feel their pain under whatever spell Namshiel generated, he didn't seem to think they needed to be compensated nor was he against open war against humanity.. That is until Harry pointed out to him he'd make a fortune on the building contracts alone.
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No, I think Namshiel explains it a bit better.. However Marcone's was way different, Harry got people to follow him and he felt the pain of each one who fought and died under Mab's Banner. That never happened in Marcone's case, he never felt squat. Charisma would explain a lot in the case of Marcone, and self confidence to stand up and mouth off at the peace talks because of the coin he was now playing host to.
I don't agree with the part of the statement I highlighted. Here's my evidence in response. (On Page 382 of the hardback edition)
I met Marcone’s eyes. “I called, and men and women of this city answered. They followed me. They fought. And I felt them die.”
Something flickered in Marcone’s face.
Marcone felt the same thing Harry did. Of course, Marcone is a cold blooded murderer. He felt what happened to the people who died because they followed him, but that doesn't mean he processed it the same way Harry did. Someone like Nicodemus would have felt those deaths as well, but Nic wouldn't have thought about those deaths in anything more than an academic manner; like, "So that's what it feels like to be shot, stabbed or (fill in the blank), and then feel nothing. I'll have to kill the people I dislike much more slowly."
Marcone probably isn't as far gone as Nicodemus. He has some moral scruples and a personal code that he adheres to. Marcone would probably rationalize whatever he felt as part of the price that must be paid for being The Barron of Chicago; whereas Harry has a deeper feeling for the loss of those people and their loved ones, but Marcone felt something and deep down I bet he knows it. However, it's a good bet that Thorned Namshiel will be hard at work trying to minimize whatever Marcone's felt about those deaths.
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I don't agree with the part of the statement I highlighted. Here's my evidence in response. (On Page 382 of the hardback edition)
I met Marcone’s eyes. “I called, and men and women of this city answered. They followed me. They fought. And I felt them die.”
Something flickered in Marcone’s face.
Marcone felt the same thing Harry did. Of course, Marcone is a cold blooded murderer. He felt what happened to the people who died because they followed him, but that doesn't mean he processed it the same way Harry did. Someone like Nicodemus would have felt those deaths as well, but Nic wouldn't have thought about those deaths in anything more than an academic manner; like, "So that's what it feels like to be shot, stabbed or (fill in the blank), and then feel nothing. I'll have to kill the people I dislike much more slowly."
Marcone probably isn't as far gone as Nicodemus. He has some moral scruples and a personal code that he adheres to. Marcone would probably rationalize whatever he felt as part of the price that must be paid for being The Barron of Chicago; whereas Harry has a deeper feeling for the loss of those people and their loved ones, but Marcone felt something and deep down I bet he knows it. However, it's a good bet that Thorned Namshiel will be hard at work trying to minimize whatever Marcone's felt about those deaths.
I don't disagree, I read the same lines, but there is feeling something, and there is feelingsomething. He felt the collateral damage he did to that little girl all those years ago, it left it's mark on him.. But he has been responsible for too many murders since then, he may have felt their lives ending, but they had no effect upon him because he had no feeling for their lives...
And I am still not so sure that Marcone felt anything, because Harry opens his pitch to get his home back with..
"The point is, my people fought and died for your land," I said, my voice suddenly harder. "I fought and bled for your land. And if I hadn't you wouldn't have a territory to defend I defended your home. And I lost my own home doing it."
If Marcone had truly felt anything when those people died, Harry couldn't have talked to him like that.
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I don't think him being a cold hearted bastard has anything to do with it, I don't think it was the same kind of Banner. Harry's Banner generated by Mab, inspired courage among ordinary people to fight at his side. Harry's personal courage affected them, in turn he felt the price that it cost them to fight under his Banner. The odd thing about Marcone is supposedly he loves Chicago can cares about it's people, yet even if he did feel their pain under whatever spell Namshiel generated, he didn't seem to think they needed to be compensated nor was he against open war against humanity.. That is until Harry pointed out to him he'd make a fortune on the building contracts alone.
Maybe Marcone's banner drove people to fight ruthlessly and take no prisoner? If Dresden's Courage was what drove his banner I absolutely could see Marcone's ruthlessness be the hallmark of his.
As for how far gone Marcone is will remain a mystery for the next few books at least. It will be interesting to see what side he ends up on for the BAT in light of him having the coin.
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Maybe Marcone's banner drove people to fight ruthlessly and take no prisoner? If Dresden's Courage was what drove his banner I absolutely could see Marcone's ruthlessness be the hallmark of his.
As for how far gone Marcone is will remain a mystery for the next few books at least. It will be interesting to see what side he ends up on for the BAT in light of him having the coin.
Give who and what they were fighting I imagine Harry's banner was encouraging ruthlessness as well. In fact that is sort of why Harry was kicked out of the Council, Harry was ruthless, and didn't mind killing the so called "human" Fomor...
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I don't disagree, I read the same lines, but there is feeling something, and there is feelingsomething. He felt the collateral damage he did to that little girl all those years ago, it left it's mark on him.. But he has been responsible for too many murders since then, he may have felt their lives ending, but they had no effect upon him because he had no feeling for their lives...
And I am still not so sure that Marcone felt anything, because Harry opens his pitch to get his home back with..
If Marcone had truly felt anything when those people died, Harry couldn't have talked to him like that.
I think you've got that backwards. It's because he felt those people and their fear and pain as they died that Harry could talk to him that way. Marcone has few redeeming qualities but his main ones are reluctance to harm true innocents and loyalty to his associates. Battle Ground hit him in both areas and he was more emotionally open to Harry's appeal in the near aftermath. That would have been a different conversation a week later.
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I think you've got that backwards. It's because he felt those people and their fear and pain as they died that Harry could talk to him that way. Marcone has few redeeming qualities but his main ones are reluctance to harm true innocents and loyalty to his associates. Battle Ground hit him in both areas and he was more emotionally open to Harry's appeal in the near aftermath. That would have been a different conversation a week later.
I'd go along with that except for one thing, Marcone had to be pressed hard to aid those harmed by the battle. He also was willing to go along with a war on humanity. It wasn't till Harry shamed him and pointed out he'd make a fortune in contracts did he go along with it.
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Let me caveat... it has been a while since I read the book, so I could be fuzzy.
I don't remember us being told specifically that the banner was something that is necessarily related to the Winter Knight or Mab. I remember Mab saying that no Winter Knight has been able to do this since that one famous guy. She didn't say that the other guy did it because he was Winter Knight, just that he was the last guy who did it that was Winter Knight. One could take that to mean that it is some latent Winter Knight thing that only a super small percentage of them can do. But in the light that Marcone also did this thing, it is easy to also interpret this as Mab just saying that this power to grab this mystical Leadership banner is rare, and the last Winter Knight to pull it off was that Tam guy.
So all I'm saying is that, unless I am forgetting some detail, we don't have a really detailed explanation of exactly what the "Banner" thing entails, or what exactly causes it. For all we know, a person could do this without any formal position (like Baron of Chicago, or Winter Knight), perhaps all it requires is a large scale confluence of Magical Forces and a person who can call and inspire leadership. This would mean it is more likely to happen if you have a title and position, but not necessary.
Mind you, I'm not claiming this is the case, just that we don't have enough info to say exactly either way.
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Or it wasn't a Banner at all, Marcone is the host to Namshiel's coin, who in addition to being a wizard, is a fallen angel... So while Harry cannot put a mental whammy on anyone, that would be breaking one of the magical Laws, Namshiel might not find that a hindrance.
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I'd go along with that except for one thing, Marcone had to be pressed hard to aid those harmed by the battle. He also was willing to go along with a war on humanity. It wasn't till Harry shamed him and pointed out he'd make a fortune in contracts did he go along with it.
Well is a nickelhead. Humanity doesn't always come through right.
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Well is a nickelhead. Humanity doesn't always come through right.
And he's a gangster. He knows to pick what he thinks to be the winning side.
Let me caveat... it has been a while since I read the book, so I could be fuzzy.
I don't remember us being told specifically that the banner was something that is necessarily related to the Winter Knight or Mab. I remember Mab saying that no Winter Knight has been able to do this since that one famous guy. She didn't say that the other guy did it because he was Winter Knight, just that he was the last guy who did it that was Winter Knight. One could take that to mean that it is some latent Winter Knight thing that only a super small percentage of them can do. But in the light that Marcone also did this thing, it is easy to also interpret this as Mab just saying that this power to grab this mystical Leadership banner is rare, and the last Winter Knight to pull it off was that Tam guy.
So all I'm saying is that, unless I am forgetting some detail, we don't have a really detailed explanation of exactly what the "Banner" thing entails, or what exactly causes it. For all we know, a person could do this without any formal position (like Baron of Chicago, or Winter Knight), perhaps all it requires is a large scale confluence of Magical Forces and a person who can call and inspire leadership. This would mean it is more likely to happen if you have a title and position, but not necessary.
Mind you, I'm not claiming this is the case, just that we don't have enough info to say exactly either way.
That's a good point. Maybe Mortal's with enough willpower can summon a banner if conditions are right? I think just by the name referring to a martial standard it needs a title to summon one but that's just my opinion.
As for what powers the banners I think its a form of magic created by the accords when Mab steps on to the field. It's part of her inverse mind whammy she throughs on her enemy. It gives her generals incredible tactical knowledge if they can handle it and improves the effectiveness of the fighting force by keeping things cohesive in the face of all sorts of nightmares.
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\As for what powers the banners I think its a form of magic created by the accords when Mab steps on to the field. It's part of her inverse mind whammy she throughs on her enemy. It gives her generals incredible tactical knowledge if they can handle it and improves the effectiveness of the fighting force by keeping things cohesive in the face of all sorts of nightmares.
Not sure about this. I believe that Mab told Harry that only a few winter knights have been able to manifest a banner before. However, aren't the accords somewhat new? I thought they came about after That one American city vanished for a few hours (Milwaukie?). So I don't think it has much to do with the accords.
It's part magic part something else (kind of like when Harry Listens) and is probably very much tied to one's emotions and maybe connecting your emotions to those around you? Like if you are angry and scared that mixes with your magic and causes some sort of field around you attracting and drawing others in that are filling similar emotions but because they don't have magic they are subordinates.
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I'd go along with that except for one thing, Marcone had to be pressed hard to aid those harmed by the battle. He also was willing to go along with a war on humanity. It wasn't till Harry shamed him and pointed out he'd make a fortune in contracts did he go along with it.
But helping the refugees is a positive. Helping. Marcone's code is simply not being a negative. It's not his fault they were threatened, so not his problem.
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But helping the refugees is a positive. Helping. Marcone's code is simply not being a negative. It's not his fault they were threatened, so not his problem.
As a gangster, yes, Marcone wants to conduct his affairs earning the most money he can and with the least harm to innocents as possible. This keeps things running smoothly and outside interference away.
As Baron of Chicago under the Accords however, he has an obligation to protect the city from magical threats from outside his territory. Before the Formor, it was barely an issue, because the threats were small scale and he could just point Harry at them and sit back with his popcorn. But when Harry was down, he stepped up, built up his forces with the Einherjar, allied with Murphy and reached some accord with Lara. Yes, it was 99.9% self interest, but again that small trait of caring about innocents especially children shows up. He let the people into the castle when Harry pointed out the kids.
If there is ever a time when a Knight will appeal to him to give up his coin, my head canon says it will be at the point of harming kids over finalizing a plan. ( I can see this a being a confrontation with Harry and Maggie.)
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As a gangster, yes, Marcone wants to conduct his affairs earning the most money he can and with the least harm to innocents as possible. This keeps things running smoothly and outside interference away.
As Baron of Chicago under the Accords however, he has an obligation to protect the city from magical threats from outside his territory. Before the Formor, it was barely an issue, because the threats were small scale and he could just point Harry at them and sit back with his popcorn. But when Harry was down, he stepped up, built up his forces with the Einherjar, allied with Murphy and reached some accord with Lara. Yes, it was 99.9% self interest, but again that small trait of caring about innocents especially children shows up. He let the people into the castle when Harry pointed out the kids.
If there is ever a time when a Knight will appeal to him to give up his coin, my head canon says it will be at the point of harming kids over finalizing a plan. ( I can see this a being a confrontation with Harry and Maggie.)
Your post got me thinking, was Marcone really working under his own Banner? Or was he like Harry working under Mab's Banner? Her Accords, her Banner.
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Your post got me thinking, was Marcone really working under his own Banner? Or was he like Harry working under Mab's Banner? Her Accords, her Banner.
The Banners were theirs to lead but were only possible because of the power Mab was exerting. They made use of a tool Mab made available subconsciously. She set up the conditions but their wills are what shaped their banners from her power
This is where Harry starts to be more in accord with Mab. When he asks her about the Banner, she is proud that he embraced the pain and didn't immerse himself in the cold. Her "such is the rule of Winter" comment implies that she gets this type of feedback constantly. Harry doesn't necessarily like Mab but he now respects her for her adherence to duty more than her power.
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Let me caveat... it has been a while since I read the book, so I could be fuzzy.
I don't remember us being told specifically that the banner was something that is necessarily related to the Winter Knight or Mab. I remember Mab saying that no Winter Knight has been able to do this since that one famous guy. She didn't say that the other guy did it because he was Winter Knight, just that he was the last guy who did it that was Winter Knight. One could take that to mean that it is some latent Winter Knight thing that only a super small percentage of them can do. But in the light that Marcone also did this thing, it is easy to also interpret this as Mab just saying that this power to grab this mystical Leadership banner is rare, and the last Winter Knight to pull it off was that Tam guy.
So all I'm saying is that, unless I am forgetting some detail, we don't have a really detailed explanation of exactly what the "Banner" thing entails, or what exactly causes it. For all we know, a person could do this without any formal position (like Baron of Chicago, or Winter Knight), perhaps all it requires is a large scale confluence of Magical Forces and a person who can call and inspire leadership. This would mean it is more likely to happen if you have a title and position, but not necessary.
Mind you, I'm not claiming this is the case, just that we don't have enough info to say exactly either way.
This topic was intriguing enough that I re-read the book this weekend. Paying special attention to these passages.
I believe that though it is not said explicitly, it does seem to hint that being Winter Knight has something to do with the Banner, but it still could be that WK just gives Harry a position that people can focus on.
It does say explicitly that Harry "feels" the hurts of the people under his banner because that is Winter Law. Once again here, it is not explicit that The Banner is caused by Winter, but that this property is from Winter. I think I'm being pedantic with this, though. It is a good indicator that at least Harry's Banner might be a Winter Knight thing.
We do have the extra thought that we don't know how Marcone "felt" his Bannerlings. He doesn't say anything about it at all, he just seems to recognize what Harry is describing as familiar. Since Marcone is not Winter, he may not have been affected by Winter Law, and thus may have not "felt" his Bannerlings taking damage like Harry did.
The Banners were theirs to lead but were only possible because of the power Mab was exerting. They made use of a tool Mab made available subconsciously. She set up the conditions but their wills are what shaped their banners from her power
There was definitely nothing in the passaages that explicitly says Mab is causing the Banner. It also doesn't say she isn't.
If we get evidence (WoJ or other) that says Marcone felt the damage from his Bannerlings as Harry did, then we can claim evidence that Winter (and possibly Mab) made the Banners possible.