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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: LostInTime on April 13, 2021, 12:38:45 AM
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I’m not sure I’ve gotten all of this sorted out in my head, so I’m going to lay it out here. Feel free to jump on and correct any inaccuracies.
Back in pre-history, The White God told all of the other gods to vamoose. Give up your immortality and live on, or keep it and have nothing more to do with mortals.
Someone, probably Hecate, maybe the Norns, instead of giving up their mortality, sponsored the fae. The fae, who had historically been the foot soldiers defending the Outer Gates, the keepers of the Outer Gates got a promotion. Their sponsor split their immortality into at least 8 mantles, 6 immortal, two not. Set up the two fae courts, one, Winter, to lead the defense of the Outer Gates, and one, Summer, to defend reality against the Winter court.
But, and this is important, The two tripartite divisions that are the fae queens, are still immortal. And The White God’s edict still holds true, their power was ordered to stop messing with humanity, so they cannot truck with mortals. In Summer Knight it’s described as fae queens cannot directly interfere with or kill anyone who isn’t attached to the courts through birthright or bargain. They they can do so indirectly with trickery, guile or glamor. Mortals, however, can still deal with them, since free will trumps everything. Free will allows mortals to deal with Outsiders, it certainly allows them to deal with fae.
It’s my theory, although not confirmed, that the fae queens must always be mortal when endowed with a mantle. Titania and Mab are sisters. Mab revealed to Harry that she was mortal once. Logically, that means so was Titania. At best they were changelings, but unless they’d chosen fae before they were endowed with their mantles, they would still be considered mortal. Aurora, Maeve and Sarissa were their daughters, arguably making them changelings, but if my theory that follows is correct, that’s not so cut and dried. Lily was a changeling, but she hadn’t selected her fae heritage yet when Aurora endowed her with the Summer Knight mantle and turned her into a statue. When Aurora died, She was endowed with the Summer Lady mantle, while still a mortal, albeit one wearing a mantle. Molly, of course, was fully mortal when she was endowed with the Winter Lady mantle.
The mantles that are not immortal, went to the knights, the hatchet men for the fae courts. These are mortals who the fae can sick on other mortals, to kill or hurt. Because the fae queens are constrained by The White God’s edict. Sure, the knights also will bring the pain to the fae, but what sets them apart from the other fae mantle wearers is their ability to kill mortals.
Run of the mill fae can interact with, kidnap, kill mortals. We saw that all the way back in Restoration of Faith with the troll. Jenny Greenteeth would have killed Billy and allowed Georgia to sleep on. Phobophages, Malks, Rawbones, Trolls, you name it, they have all threatened or outright killed mortals all the way through the books.
But the fae queens can’t.
In Summer Knight, Slate, in cahoots with Aurora, kills Ronald Rheul, the Summer Knight. No problem there, knights are supposed to kill mortals. Aurora buys it at the hands of Harry’s minions. Essentially her death is at Harry’s hands. He might have been doing the slicing and dicing with the bane, but with fae logic, he was responsible. The run of the mill fae that wielded the box cutters, again, had no issue killing her.
Loyd Slate’s betrayal of Mab is also revealed in Summer Knight. But, instead of killing him and allowing the Knight’s mantle to flow back to her, she takes him prisoner and tortures him for years.
In Changes, Mab doesn’t kill Loyd Slate, Harry does.
Fast forward to Cold Days. Harry believes that Mab is trying to kill him over 77 days. But most of those attempts are through predators, traps or fae. She only tries once with a pillow and once with a shotgun. Harry, pre-Winter Knight, could have protected himself from a shotgun.
Mab orders Harry to kill Maeve because Mab believes Maeve is Nfected. Mab had previously cured Leanansidhe of Nfection. So, why didn’t Mab just do the same thing to Maeve, her own daughter in order to spare her life?
Because, even if Maeve was wearing a fae queen mantle, she’s still mortal. The mantle makes her into a high sidhe. The mantle is what doesn’t allow her to lie, normally. The mantle gives her the vulnerability to the bane. Just as the mantle endows her with immortality. And Kringle tells us later that mantles can be worn, exchanged or discarded. Which would imply that in order to exchange or discard a mantle, you have to possess free will.
The Nfection counters the mantle and allows Maeve to lie. It also allows her to kill Lily. Maeve is, in turn, killed by Karin.
In Peace Talks and Battle Ground, the Fomor servitors don’t get the mortal protection because they are involved with the Fomor, who are involved with the fae courts. Molly, Maeve, Sarissa and Titania are allowed to kill them with impunity.
In The Good People, Mab encourages Molly to let her mortality die. Molly responds by getting in Mab's face. Instead of bouncing her head off a solid object as Mab has done with Harry in the past, she accedes to Molly's wishes and lets her be.
I can’t think of any time in any of the books or short stories where a fae queen has killed or injured a mortal that is not involved in some way with the fae courts, either directly or through the Unseelie Accords. I think there's a strong possibility that the fae queens, with the possible exception of the only original queen, Mother Winter, may all have been, and still are, mortal.
Comments? Corrections? Amplifications? Thoughts?
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Apparently they can be killed on Halloween. So technically they aren't immortal, or they are but they can be killed under the right conditions. Kind of like Tolkien's elves, they were immortal unless they were killed.
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Lea wanted to be cured. She tried it herself but she did not succeed. She went to her queen for aid. Maeve did not want to be cured, Sarissa asked her but without the patient’s cooperation it does not work.
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Lea wanted to be cured. She tried it herself but she did not succeed. She went to her queen for aid. Maeve did not want to be cured, Sarissa asked her but without the patient’s cooperation it does not work.
But that is about the cure, we are talking about dying. If Maeve hadn't been shot, she wouldn't of died from Nemesis. Because it was too late to cure her, she had to be killed.
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Apparently they can be killed on Halloween. So technically they aren't immortal, or they are but they can be killed under the right conditions. Kind of like Tolkien's elves, they were immortal unless they were killed.
That applies to all immortals, right up to Uriel-level beings. By your definition then, no one is immortal. Mab explains it best in Battle Ground "I am immortal, not eternal". Against powers like the Eye of Balor, or during things like the Halloween Conjunction on Earth, even immortals can be killed. But they are still immortal in most senses, and they certainly are not "mortal" in the way Jim separates the two. Mortals have Free Will, immortals do not - as a general rule. The closer you get to one end of the spectrum the more choices open up or disappear. Even the Angels had Free Will, at least enough to choose to Fall. Free Will is clearly more complex than either you have it or not.
Lost In Time -
I can see how you got there but I don't agree that the Faerie Queens are mortal, now. They may have once been (although we only know that Mab, Sarissa, Aurora, Maeve, Lily, and Molly were for a fact mortal to begin with). I agree that it's likely if Mab were once mortal, Titania likely was too, as probably were their predecessors. Mother Summer then could also then have been mortal by that logic. However, I highly doubt the original Mother Summer was. This is because I believe she was but one half of whatever the original Mother Winter likely was i.e. the greater part of the God(s) that made them.
I think the clue is how Ethniu discusses the Queens etc. She says they are the "new" gods. That gods like her and Odin are the originals. Which makes sense, they didn't start out as mortal. According to the most recent WOJ, the Gods existed (like the Angels...) before Creation. They are essentially beings of energy that humans try to fit into neat physical boxes, and that doesn't really work very well. Beings of that order are immortals, and if they ever had Free Will they didn't have much to begin with OR they mostly chose not to exercise it for many possible reasons - but I think they are like the Angels in that they only have enough Free Will to choose to either be mortal or change into something (like Falling). Perhaps its easiest to think of mortals having a far greater amount of choices to choose from, whereas immortals are incredibly limited to maybe just a few.
Also, I am not sure the Knight Mantles aren't immortal in and of themselves - they just don't grant immortality to the bearer. It's an important distinction. A Knight mantle is energy, so it can't be destroyed (see Summer Knight). But it can be changed into something that makes it useless or different in such a way to be nothing like the original, it can be hoarded, and it can be stolen. I suspect the reason the mantle doesn't grant immortality on the Knight is to do with how the power came to be, and why it was first made, and therefore must have certain limitations already on how much it can change the bearer. Perhaps this is why Harry doesn't really get much of an actual physical upgrade. It's mostly psychic, spiritual...his barriers in his psychology are removed or dampened. Harry isn't super strong, he just feels like it and doesn't feel the pain. I know there are some out there who would argue that no matter how much you remove in the brain a person can't lift 800lbs. Take it up with Jim...I didn't write the series.
On this topic, although slight tangent...Molly didn't have her choice removed entirely when she received the Winter Lady mantle. I think she still has some left, although the more she leans into the mantle the less she has. I suspect the only real choice, the only real way out, is to choose to renounce all the power. Molly even says she could, by stepping out of the circle (in Peace Talks when Harry summons her) and leaving her power behind. But she worries that would be a very bad thing. Maybe it would. But she still CAN do it if she wants to. As Mother Summer says in Cold Days, most never remain themselves under the influence of the mantle. But some do. Maybe it's about how much you choose to lean on the mantle.
It's probably similar to how a person in an Office (like being a King or President etc) is. There is a person that inhabits that Office, but it isn't really the person that has the powers of that Office, it's the Office itself. It's a matter of which hat they are wearing. And the more individuality a person imposes on that Office, the less that Office is really filled. You can be you, or the Office, but you can't wear both hats at the same time. In the military, it is the Office that is saluted (as a rule) not the person in it. So you might hate you commanding officer but you are not saluting him/her you are saluting the rank that they have, the flag on their shoulder.
In Changes, Mab doesn’t kill Loyd Slate, Harry does.
So Lloyd Slate had already made a bargain with Mab. He is fair game for Mab to kill then. Harry is in the same boat, even well before he becomes Winter Knight.
Mab had previously cured Leanansidhe of Nfection. So, why didn’t Mab just do the same thing to Maeve, her own daughter in order to spare her life?
This is pretty much explained. Mab won't kill Maeve as she is her daughter, and it appears to be the case that the victim must want to be free of the infection (at least in part) in order to be cured. So far, Lea is the only example of an infected being cured. It is also possible (like with most virus') that once the victim has been infected for too long there is almost no recourse. Mab is left with the option of killing her daughter or letting her roam free. She chooses to get a new Winter Lady.
In The Good People, Mab encourages Molly to let her mortality die. Molly responds by getting in Mab's face. Instead of bouncing her head off a solid object as Mab has done with Harry in the past, she accedes to Molly's wishes and lets her be.
I don't think it's Molly's mortality that Mab is acceding to as such. I read it from a military perspective i.e. that Molly as Winter Lady had the right to make that decision and even Mab cannot gainsay that decision. It's not Molly's decision that Mab is respecting, but the Winter Lady's (just like I talked about above).
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Even Uriel, as skin game showed, can be killed under the right circumstances,
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I'm wondering about the part choice plays in accepting a mantle.
Mother Winter - The only original fae queen. She's going to talk about who the sponsor was and how the mantles were created. Probably not until the BAT.
Mother Summer - Previously the Summer Queen, ascended when the OG Mother Summer retired, abdicated or was killed.
Titania - Current Summer Queen. Previously Summer Lady. We don't know how she got the mantle.
Mab - Current Winter Queen. Previously Winter Lady. We don't know how she got the mantle.
Aurora - Prior Summer Lady. Nfected. We don't know how she got her mantle.
Maeve - Prior Winter Lady. Nfected. We don't know how she got her mantle.
Lily - Prior Summer Lady, Prior Summer Knight. Aurora forced the Summer Knight mantle upon her. Then when Aurora was killed, she has the Summer Lady mantle forced on her as the closest suitable vessel for fae power.
Sarissa - Current Summer Lady. Had the mantle forced upon her when Lily was killed.
Molly - Current Winter Lady. Had the mantle forced upon her when Maeve was killed.
Of the three fae queen mantle transitions we've seen in the books, none of them were voluntary. None of the ladies have said, "Sure, give me this power, I want it." Lily didn't even say she wanted the Summer Knight mantle. Which seems inconsistent with Harry accepting the Winter Knight mantle and Fix the Summer Knight, but since Aurora was Nfected at the time, not impossible.
Lily, Sarissa and Molly had no choice. They also had no choice in whether or not they would deal with the fae courts. Sarissa and Lily because they were changelings. Molly because she was apprenticed to Harry, who was already involved with Leanansidhe because of something his mother had done. Again, no choice. Later, when Harry accepted the Winter Knight mantle, Molly had no choice in that. When Harry 'died' Leanansidhe took over training her in Harry's stead, because of the fae court's obligation to fulfill Harry's obligations. Again, no choice on Molly's part. Which led to her being forced to take the Winter Lady mantle as her association with Leanansidhe made her a suitable vessel for fae power.
I feel like I'm missing something, but choice has got to play a part in all of this. It's like choosing to pick up a denarius, or a sword.
(Sigh) Time for a re-read.
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Free will does not mean that everything that happens to you is somehow your choice. Being born was not your choice.other people make choices too.
Sure with some verbal gymnastics you can say that Molly chose to go to the island or you can point to several other choices she made in the past that lead to it but often what happens to you is not your choice, only how you handle it. Molly decided to take the job seriously
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Free will does not mean that everything that happens to you is somehow your choice. Being born was not your choice.other people make choices too.
Sure with some verbal gymnastics you can say that Molly chose to go to the island or you can point to several other choices she made in the past that lead to it but often what happens to you is not your choice, only how you handle it. Molly decided to take the job seriously
Choices have consequences, not always immediate,not always direct, but consequences none the less. With Molly we have to back up to Proven Guilty and maybe a little before that, choices she made. No, she didn't choose to be born with talent, but her mother chose not to explain it to her or ask Harry for advice or information. Result of both Charity and Molly's choices, Molly nearly loses her head and is started down the road to warlockhood. Harry defends her and chooses to become her master and accept the Doom with her, he goes easy on her in some ways, but mostly keeps her out of trouble. We are all aware of the choices Harry made, from sex with Susan to setting up his own suicide, it is more complicated in that, if you want we can go into all the spin offs from those choices.. However back to Molly, Harry gone, Molly is adrift, unsupervised, and astray, much of that is her choice to be so. This draws the attention of Mab and Lea is sent in to offer additional training, again, Molly's choice, she goes along. Result she is being prepped for, by Mab, to take one of the Lady's jobs in the future. Apparently that bit wasn't revealed to Molly, nor is it completely clear she'd have agreed to the training if she understood. Still, informed or not, she chose to train with "Auntie Lea." Molly did choose to go to the island to help Harry, she didn't choose to become Winter Lady however. Yes, the important bit is how you handle the consequences of your past choices, but how you handle something is just another way making more choices. Molly could have blown the job off like Maeve, but she chose to take the job seriously... Choices, she is still human enough to have free will, though so far it appears the Lady's mantle bell can't be unrung, even if she wanted it to be.
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Also you can question the value of an uninformed choice. If you know so little that you may as well just throw dice then choice is not really a choice.
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Oh and she did not attract the attention of Mab, she did not need to. Mab had an obligation to Harry and Lea had to teach Molly. The Sidhe know what their obligations are. The old style contract between teacher and pupil probably gave Lea the duty to force Molly if she did not cooperate.
So she could refuse but I do not think that it would make any difference apart from making her life more difficult.
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Wasn't there something going around a while back that Jim said that Molly had caught Mab's attention back in PG, specifically when they are in Arctus Tor
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Wasn't there something going around a while back that Jim said that Molly had caught Mab's attention back in PG, specifically when they are in Arctus Tor
Yes.
Also you can question the value of an uninformed choice. If you know so little that you may as well just throw dice then choice is not really a choice.
Informed or uninformed, choices still have consequences, deciding to "throw the dice," is still a choice.
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Informed or uninformed, choices still have consequences, deciding to "throw the dice," is still a choice.
And maybe if you sacrifice a goat to Fortuna it is even a better choice. But it defeats the argument that everything is because of your own choices as a moral argument. The answer is then: So What? That only works if you make a moral choice and for that you need information.
What choice did she make to become the winter Lady? It is not something as clear as a red court half vampire deciding to drink some blood. It is a complex set of choices made by several people with not enough information. But the final choice was not hers. It was the summer mantle who chose Sarissa in stead of her despite everything Mab wanted and tried to do.
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And maybe if you sacrifice a goat to Fortuna it is even a better choice. But it defeats the argument that everything is because of your own choices as a moral argument. The answer is then: So What? That only works if you make a moral choice and for that you need information.
Why does it have to be a "moral choice" to count? You can make a choice without thinking but that puts someone else in a position where they have to make a moral choice. So your answer of "so what" is the answer a sociopath would give.
What choice did she make to become the winter Lady? It is not something as clear as a red court half vampire deciding to drink some blood. It is a complex set of choices made by several people with not enough information. But the final choice was not hers. It was the summer mantle who chose Sarissa in stead of her despite everything Mab wanted and tried to do.
But her choices got her the point where she was in position to be possessed by the mantle of the Winter Lady. Totally informed choices? No, but how many choices do we make on a daily bases that are fully informed? We often make uninformed choices because we choose to, it is the easiest to do and seem harmless, only sometimes they are not. That is where the expression, "looking back you can see things with 20/20 vision." "If only," is another one, as my old father used to say, "if is half of life." Informed verses uninformed choices, to quote you, "so what?" Choices are choices..
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Why does it have to be a "moral choice" to count? You can make a choice without thinking but that puts someone else in a position where they have to make a moral choice. So your answer of "so what" is the answer a sociopath would give.
Thinking is only relevant if you have information to think about and that includes the effect your decision has on others. If you have no information about that how can that decision be sociopathic?
Every decision is made upon the expected results both for yourself and for everyone else.
But her choices got her the point where she was in position to be possessed by the mantle of the Winter Lady. Totally informed choices? No, but how many choices do we make on a daily bases that are fully informed? We often make uninformed choices because we choose to, it is the easiest to do and seem harmless, only sometimes they are not. That is where the expression, "looking back you can see things with 20/20 vision." "If only," is another one, as my old father used to say, "if is half of life." Informed verses uninformed choices, to quote you, "so what?" Choices are choices..
The point is that Molly did not make the choice tot become the winter lady unlike some other transformations. No first sexual encounter or first blood.
Of course she made decisions that made it possible like not jumping in front of a train but at the end the mantle was just forced upon her because she was a compatible host.
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The point is that Molly did not make the choice tot become the winter lady unlike some other transformations. No first sexual encounter or first blood.
Really? Her first choices ended her up in Arctus Tor, you don't see a connection between that and her eventually becoming Winter Lady?
Thinking is only relevant if you have information to think about and that includes the effect your decision has on others. If you have no information about that how can that decision be sociopathic?
Simply this the effect on others is always something you have to take into consideration no matter how much or how little information you have at the time. If you don't care, well, that is sociopathic.
Of course she made decisions that made it possible like not jumping in front of a train but at the end the mantle was just forced upon her because she was a compatible host.
No, she was groomed, Mab admitted that, Molly's decisions had something to do with that.
The mantle jumped into Molly, it didn't jump into Murphy who was also nearby.
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Free will does not mean that everything that happens to you is somehow your choice. Being born was not your choice.other people make choices too.
Sure with some verbal gymnastics you can say that Molly chose to go to the island or you can point to several other choices she made in the past that lead to it but often what happens to you is not your choice, only how you handle it. Molly decided to take the job seriously
This is the "Sins of the Father" argument. The children bear the weight of everything their parents do. There's no way to make a fresh start and vendettas never end.
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No, she was groomed, Mab admitted that, Molly's decisions had something to do with that.
The mantle jumped into Molly, it didn't jump into Murphy who was also nearby.
The mantle could have also jumped back to Mab. As Rhuel's Summer Knight mantle jumped back to Aurora when Rhuel was murdered by Slate.
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The mantle could have also jumped back to Mab. As Rhuel's Summer Knight mantle jumped back to Aurora when Rhuel was murdered by Slate.
You're right, forgotten that.
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It's hard to assign blame in terms of Molly's early choices. She didn't make them in a vacuum, she was pushed by someone. Sandra Marling in point of fact. Later in Skin Games Uriel will say this about Nic's henchmen, they didn't fall, they were pushed. Molly was caught up in a plot to kill Harry, that landed her at Arctis Tor.
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Really? Her first choices ended her up in Arctus Tor, you don't see a connection between that and her eventually becoming Winter Lady?
Only in the sense that if you take the first bridge in stead of the second someone is going to molest you. Maybe because you decided to wear the red shirt in stead of the black one or the other way round.
Her first choices were wrong for other reasons but were partly because no one decided to educate her. It is not just her choices, sometimes things are chosen for you.
Simply this the effect on others is always something you have to take into consideration no matter how much or how little information you have at the time. If you don't care, well, that is sociopathic.
That is only possible if you have information. Maybe the red shirt will be painful for someone’s eyes. At the moment you pick a shirt you don’t care and throw a dice. That does not mean you don’t care if you have more information About the consequences of your choices. But you need to have information to do so.
No, she was groomed, Mab admitted that, Molly's decisions had something to do with that.
But did she know and what could she have done and when? If you knew about the troll under the bridge you could have taken the other one.
Mab decided to groom her, that was not her decision.
It is easy to say everything is because of your own choices but more difficult to identify the meaningful choices someone made, his real errors and not his bad luck.
The mantle jumped into Molly, it didn't jump into Murphy who was also nearby.
Sure but Molly did not know. There were a lot of fae around for the mantle to choose. She might not even have known that the ladies could die let alone two of them. You have to be aware of the danger to make a choice to avoid it. We and Harry and Molly were not aware.
You could say she decided to go to the island. She knew she could die there but that is not the same. She also knew she could help people. The moral right choice was to go. And that was the information she had.
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Choice plays such a big part in mortal affairs, that stripping someone of their free will by saddling them with a mantle seems sure to draw down the response of The White God.
Especially if we find out at the end that it was Hecate evading TWG's edict to give up their immortality or withdraw from the mortal world. My theory is that she did both, and didn't. We'll find out when Mother Winter (Hecate?) spills the beans.
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Choice plays such a big part in mortal affairs, that stripping someone of their free will by saddling them with a mantle seems sure to draw down the response of The White God.
Especially if we find out at the end that it was Hecate evading TWG's edict to give up their immortality or withdraw from the mortal world. My theory is that she did both, and didn't. We'll find out when Mother Winter (Hecate?) spills the beans.
From the interaction between Harry, Uriel and Molly I do not get the impression that Uriel is saddened by Molly's new job. Sure she is not mortal anymore but maybe Uriel and Molly can have lunch together.
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Maybe the Fae Queens can be human if they act human, same as Harry can act pretty inhuman and become the mantle, or be a decent person.
In that case, Molly's appointment as Winter Lady is maybe a Uriel plot (okay he claims he doesn't do much, but really, who buys that?) to overthrow the inhumanity of the fae and make them more humane (but still tough). Mab's solution is acceptable; the Molly solution would be better. And sacrificing her life for a cause, if she at the point of decision knows what she's doing, is a perfectly godly thing; TWC did the same, supposedly.
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Sure but Molly did not know. There were a lot of fae around for the mantle to choose. She might not even have known that the ladies could die let alone two of them. You have to be aware of the danger to make a choice to avoid it. We and Harry and Molly were not aware.
Maybe on the details surrounding Mab's motives as far as her training goes, however having said that after her kidnapping to Actus Tor or the fact that she assisted Harry's suicide so he wouldn't have to become Mab's Winter Knight, she should have been wary of training with "Auntie Lea."
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While possible Butcher did not think it through, it's quite possible this is the origin of the "no lying" restriction that at least the Sidhe are under.
To whit: They have to tell you the truth if you ask. Don't think to ask, make an uninformed choice, that's your problem.
Really, all this wrangling about Molly boils down to: What choice did she make that made her "vulnerable"? Did she have to choose to accept the mantle when it came to her, and so that's just not onscreen because it was internal? Was it that she didn't sever her relationship with Harry when he became Winter Knight?
Personally, I think it was accepting Lea's offer to continue her education. The way Butcher is structuring the deals, Harry the Winter Knight is a legally distinct being from Harry the Wizard. Harry the Wizard had a contract with Molly the Apprentice. By accepting Lea's offer to stand-in, Molly was accepting expanding Molly-apprentice-to-Harry-the-Wizard to Molly-apprentice-to-Harry-the-Winter-Knight. This put her in the chain of command of Winter:
Mother Winter->Mab->Maeve->Harry->Harry's Apprentice
Enough "vulnerability" for the Mantle.
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Sure but Molly did not know. There were a lot of fae around for the mantle to choose. She might not even have known that the ladies could die let alone two of them. You have to be aware of the danger to make a choice to avoid it. We and Harry and Molly were not aware.
Couple of items on this.
1) None of the three Ladies we've seen get a mantle were Fey. Two were changelings (mortal+potential) one pure mortal. So full Fae being around may not "count" as far as the mantle is concerned- much like the Knights.
2) You are confusing/equating "choice" and "informed choice"- even so far as "fully informed choice." When a child doesn't eat peas, it doesn't mean they are rejecting their health benefits- it's a choice, not a fully informed one.
As I noted in my previous, this would explain the Sidhe requirement to tell the truth and their instinct to deceive anyway. If you ask the right question, they will clearly lay out the bargain. It is up to you to make good choices.
Not the modern European idea of selling, but the ancient Middle Eastern- if you unwind your silk and find that a yard in it was cotton, that's on you for paying for it, not the seller for deceiving you. Let the buyer beware and be wary. It's a more ancient idea of how selling and trading was done.
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Not the modern European idea of selling, but the ancient Middle Eastern- if you unwind your silk and find that a yard in it was cotton, that's on you for paying for it, not the seller for deceiving you. Let the buyer beware and be wary. It's a more ancient idea of how selling and trading was done.
^ This is why one should never bargain with the Fae.. How often have we heard Mab or Lea say they cannot lie, they didn't trick, but, "it is your fault, dumb mortal because you didn't read the fine print or ask the right questions about the condition of the bargain." To put it bluntly, "you got exactly what you asked for, no more, no less.. Not my fault you never fully educated yourself before you agreed to our bargain. So, live with it!"
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I don't know why this didn't occur to me earlier. The tell to the truth that fae queens are mortals still is in Peace Talks.
Molly says she could cross the circle. But she'd leave the fae mantle behind. Since it's much more invasive than Harry's mantle, what came out on the other side wouldn't be 'right'. This makes sense since her mantle conveys immortality, and Harry's doesn't.
In Cold Days, Maeve was killed on Halloween, despite being an 'immortal'. Kringle comments later that Halloween is a day when mantles can be put on or discarded. It's the day when Vaddrung dons his Kringle mantle. That means on at least two days of the year, there's a width between the mortals wearing them and the mantles. Why two days you ask? Because Mab gave Harry a conditional suggestion in Battle Ground that if she should die that night, then Harry should kill Molly. It was the Summer Solstice, a cosmologically important day of the year. A day when 'the stars were aligned'.
The mantles are immortal. They convey that immortality to the mortals wearing them. But there are days when that protection is not absolute.
The fae queens are mortal.
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Well the Sidhe were created specifically to watch the Outer Gates. We also know they weren't the first to guard it. I don't know if TWG was involved in their creation, or not.
I believe that Jim used the Diablo creation myth as inspiration. That being that there was a single Being that has always existed. To achieve perfection he removed all negative qualities, but those negative qualities created it's own Being. So there is TWG and his Angles vs , the Darkness which is made of the Old Ones, and Outsiders. TWG created reality, and life within it. He locked out the Outsiders (per words of Jim).
My theory: There were the mortals who interacted with both Angles, and demons, creating beings like vampires, naalagoshi (spelling?), and others. Combining the power of belief, worship, and these interactions with Angles, and demons has resulted in supernatural beings, gods, sidhe, mantles, and wizards.
Are the Fae Queens still mortal? Yes. Strip away their mantles and they are flesh and blood that can be killed. The Mantle will live on, but the person who had it will not. Is the Mantle itself immortal? I suspect not. I believe it is a great deal of power that has been constructed, and can be potentially deconstructed by someone with enough power.
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Well the Sidhe were created specifically to watch the Outer Gates. We also know they weren't the first to guard it. I don't know if TWG was involved in their creation, or not.
I believe that Jim used the Diablo creation myth as inspiration. That being that there was a single Being that has always existed. To achieve perfection he removed all negative qualities, but those negative qualities created it's own Being. So there is TWG and his Angles vs , the Darkness which is made of the Old Ones, and Outsiders. TWG created reality, and life within it. He locked out the Outsiders (per words of Jim).
My theory: There were the mortals who interacted with both Angles, and demons, creating beings like vampires, naalagoshi (spelling?), and others. Combining the power of belief, worship, and these interactions with Angles, and demons has resulted in supernatural beings, gods, sidhe, mantles, and wizards.
Are the Fae Queens still mortal? Yes. Strip away their mantles and they are flesh and blood that can be killed. The Mantle will live on, but the person who had it will not. Is the Mantle itself immortal? I suspect not. I believe it is a great deal of power that has been constructed, and can be potentially deconstructed by someone with enough power.
I might have missed it, but when did Jim say he was using the Diablo creation myth? Or are you saying that's just your guess that he did?
At any rate, as intriguing as it is he has said a few things that might throw a spanner in that WAG. For instance, the Gods like Ethniu and Vadderung existed before time was invented, before the Universe was made (just like the Angels). They all seem to be peers or even relations. They all seem to know each other. So I don't see how the mortal interaction created them since they are FAR older than mortals. It appears to me more that mortals have merely renamed and therefore reshaped them a bit, which defines a bit of how they interact with the mortal world. Some gods like Vadderung choose to lessen themselves so that mortals can understand them better. But by and large it seems belief merely shapes the existing being, not that the being is created by mortals themselves.
I am pretty sure mortals in Diablo were also a creation of Lilith, the daughter of Mephisto (Lord of Hatred) and one of the Prime Evils. So even if Jim were using Diablo as his basis, it wouldn't really work to have mortals doing all the creating. I guess that's why there is a Creator in the first place.
I don't agree that the Fae Queens are mortal. I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding of what the difference between immortals and mortals is, not helped by the fact Jim has muddied the waters about it and not been clear on his definitions about them.
If you strip an immortal like a Fae Queen of immortality, they would no longer be the Fae Queen either. So the sentence becomes redundant. Mab is still Mab, but she would no longer be the Queen of Winter. She has be stripped of the Office. Think of it like a uniform. You are still you when you wear it, but when you wear a uniform you also become whatever that uniform represents - a solider, a medic, a police officer, a fireman etc. But the uniform is an idea. So even if it is destroyed, unless the entire institution that powers it is also destroyed then the holder of that uniform does not lose their position.
A mantle is energy. According to Einstein, energy cannot be created nor destroyed. While this position is hard to wrap your head around, it's actually quite self-evident. Everything that happens to energy is change. We know the energy of mantles can be stolen, as per Summer Knight. We know both from Summer Knight and from Cold Days that immortals actually often discard and re-acquire and steal energy. So in that sense, the mantle can be destroyed. But really what would happen is the energy of the mantle would be changed into something that the thief would use. What would be left is hard to say, but there is an interesting WOJ that hints at it.
Quote from: ballplayer72 on February 24, 2007, 01:42:52 PM
i am fairly certain, but not positive, that it is not possible to hold both Mantles at once. Also i do not think that holding both was what Slade was planning. Slade and the Summer Lady were planning on taking the Summer Knight out of the equation, and thus causing a war. During this war, the Summer Lady would be able to take Lily, the follower of Summer that she put the Mantle on, along with the Unraveling, and sacrifice her for Winter on the Stone Table, thus giving Winter the Energy that went along with the Knight’s Mantle, not the Mantle itself. At least that was how i interpreted it. The Stone Table doesnt transfer the actual thing that is Sacrificed on the Table from Summer to Winter and vice versa, but the energy and power that it holds.
JIM: Finger. Nose.
Jim :)
So the mantle would still exist, but it would be a changed mantle. A mantle without the energy and the power, and likely without the knowledge that it once had. Just a strange shell perhaps. Like a coffee cup with the coffee taken out. A used thing. No longer what it was, but hints at it's origins.
I don't know why this didn't occur to me earlier. The tell to the truth that fae queens are mortals still is in Peace Talks.
Molly says she could cross the circle. But she'd leave the fae mantle behind. Since it's much more invasive than Harry's mantle, what came out on the other side wouldn't be 'right'. This makes sense since her mantle conveys immortality, and Harry's doesn't.
In Cold Days, Maeve was killed on Halloween, despite being an 'immortal'. Kringle comments later that Halloween is a day when mantles can be put on or discarded. It's the day when Vaddrung dons his Kringle mantle. That means on at least two days of the year, there's a width between the mortals wearing them and the mantles. Why two days you ask? Because Mab gave Harry a conditional suggestion in Battle Ground that if she should die that night, then Harry should kill Molly. It was the Summer Solstice, a cosmologically important day of the year. A day when 'the stars were aligned'.
The mantles are immortal. They convey that immortality to the mortals wearing them. But there are days when that protection is not absolute.
The fae queens are mortal.
The idea that immortals are beings that can never be killed under any circumstances is an outdated definition, and one that isn't relevant in the context of the series.
Mab says she IS immortal, not eternal. That's a quote from Battle Ground. You couldn't get any more canon than that.
I understand the confusion as the old definition is quite absolute. But it's an archaic definition, and not how Jim uses it in this series.
Also, Maeve was killed on Halloween because it was Halloween. Any other day she could have been killed and unless it was in a similar conjunction or with ancient and incredible power like the Eye of Balor, she would have returned.
Bob explains all this in Cold Days. As Harry muses, this is why the immortals make a big deal out of being essentially unkillable AND shut down anything that says otherwise. This is the big secret that only other immortals (by and large) seem to know. I can see how you got to the idea that the Summer Solstice is a similar conjunction to Halloween, but wouldn't the Winter Solstice also be one too? As far as we know, the only conjunction that allows immortals to be mortal is on Halloween. I don't think Mab was hinting that it needed to be done that night, I think she knows if Dresden wanted to do it he would find a way to do it. He did it to Maeve after all.
See my previous response above to groinkick about what happens to Fae Queens.
Couple of items on this.
1) None of the three Ladies we've seen get a mantle were Fey. Two were changelings (mortal+potential) one pure mortal. So full Fae being around may not "count" as far as the mantle is concerned- much like the Knights.
2) You are confusing/equating "choice" and "informed choice"- even so far as "fully informed choice." When a child doesn't eat peas, it doesn't mean they are rejecting their health benefits- it's a choice, not a fully informed one.
As I noted in my previous, this would explain the Sidhe requirement to tell the truth and their instinct to deceive anyway. If you ask the right question, they will clearly lay out the bargain. It is up to you to make good choices.
Not the modern European idea of selling, but the ancient Middle Eastern- if you unwind your silk and find that a yard in it was cotton, that's on you for paying for it, not the seller for deceiving you. Let the buyer beware and be wary. It's a more ancient idea of how selling and trading was done.
Agreed. Also, 'buyer beware' is very much still a legal principle today.
I also agree with your previous post - it's the chain of choices that Molly made that made her Winter Lady. It's not just one. The Angel of Death makes a big point about how it works in Ghost Story.
Choice plays such a big part in mortal affairs, that stripping someone of their free will by saddling them with a mantle seems sure to draw down the response of The White God.
Especially if we find out at the end that it was Hecate evading TWG's edict to give up their immortality or withdraw from the mortal world. My theory is that she did both, and didn't. We'll find out when Mother Winter (Hecate?) spills the beans.
The assumption you are making is that Molly was stripped of her Free Will. But she was not. She made all her choices uncompromised. She chose to train to be a wizard with Harry Dresden no less, she chose to be involved in his world, and to help him fight, and carry on his work, and train with his former teacher (Lea). No one made her go to Demonreach. No one made her choose all those previous choices that lead her there - the evidence of that is if that were the case Uriel and Co. would have intervened. Molly made herself a possible vessel of Winter, she changed herself through her own choices. And she never lost the choice to give up all her power either.
It's hard to assign blame in terms of Molly's early choices. She didn't make them in a vacuum, she was pushed by someone. Sandra Marling in point of fact. Later in Skin Games Uriel will say this about Nic's henchmen, they didn't fall, they were pushed. Molly was caught up in a plot to kill Harry, that landed her at Arctis Tor.
We are all pushed around by others choices. No one lives in a vacuum. So each choice is influenced by the multitude of factors, including other people's choices, around us. Everyone makes their choices in those same conditions.
This is the "Sins of the Father" argument. The children bear the weight of everything their parents do. There's no way to make a fresh start and vendettas never end.
As I said to Morris, that's just the way it is. If you are struck by lightning whose fault is it? Generally it's your own fault for being outside where lightning might strike you. If you get injured, it's again your fault for not wearing the right equipment. If you take issue with that, you might want to take issue with Creation itself for having a world that has pain, evil, loss, death and taxes in it. But I disagree entirely with your conclusion. It is not impossible to make a fresh start. It requires enormous will and growth and energy. But people do it all the time anyway. Doesn't mean it always works out of course. Take Jesus for example. It doesn't read, as I understand it, that Jesus spent his life planning to be crucified. But he ended up there anyway due to the choices of others around him, and due to his own choices. But he accepted the consequences and bore it all the same. We cannot choose whether we are born or not, but we can choose what to do after that.
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And sometimes people can not even understand the choices they have to make because of a stray cosmic radiation that hit their mothers belly before they even were born.
Everything is a mixture between things you chose, things others chose and just natural randomness that can pop up anytime. Sometimes with a different recipe.
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I thought about that for a second and then said, “Jordan.” “And the other squires, yes,” Uriel said. “Why?” I asked. “They made their choices, too, didn’t they?” Uriel seemed to consider the question for a moment. “Some men fall from grace,” he said slowly. “Some are pushed.”
Butcher, Jim. Skin Game: A Novel of the Dresden Files (p. 441). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
Here's free will. You're in a perfectly dark room that has been sown with land mines. You have to cross the room to get out. Good luck. That's free will in the ignorance of the outcome of your choices.
In terms of the OP's question Mab answers it in the text.Mab did not turn around. When she spoke, her voice had something in it I had never heard there before and never heard again—uncertainty. Vulnerability. “I was mortal once, you know,” she said, very quietly.
Butcher, Jim. Cold Days (The Dresden Files, Book 14) (p. 513). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
Implying that she is no longer human. Humans are born, grow old and die at the end of their natural lives. Mab can be killed but she will never grow old and die.
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Here's free will. You're in a perfectly dark room that has been sown with land mines. You have to cross the room to get out. Good luck. That's free will in the ignorance of the outcome of your choices.
In terms of the OP's question Mab answers it in the text.Implying that she is no longer human. Humans are born, grow old and die at the end of their natural lives. Mab can be killed but she will never grow old and die.
According to Mab’s definition of immortal. Maybe not everyone here uses the same definition.
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Implying that she is no longer human. Humans are born, grow old and die at the end of their natural lives. Mab can be killed but she will never grow old and die.
Which follows Tolkien's formula for the Elves.
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Here's free will. You're in a perfectly dark room that has been sown with land mines. You have to cross the room to get out. Good luck. That's free will in the ignorance of the outcome of your choices.
In terms of the OP's question Mab answers it in the text. Implying that she is no longer human. Humans are born, grow old and die at the end of their natural lives. Mab can be killed but she will never grow old and die.
Exactly so. That's all we get. And yes, Mab confirms it in multiple different ways that she is no longer mortal. I fail to see any evidence to the contrary...hopefully that's another argument solved.
According to Mab’s definition of immortal. Maybe not everyone here uses the same definition.
But the relevant definition is the one Jim uses. It's on the reader to be familiar with the terms in the text, and Jim has set out his parameters for immortality - even if they are not the definition that many understand 'immortal' to be.
Which follows Tolkien's formula for the Elves.
In a very loose sense. Tolkien's Elves, particularly those of the Second and Third Age, were not semi-divine creatures. They were touched by some of that nature, and were creatures of two worlds (just like Faeries in mythology, and similar to how Leanansidhe describes herself). But the Elves of the Second and Third Age were really just extremely long-lived. They didn't age or weaken past maturity, but their bodies were as susceptible to the vulnerabilities of the flesh as any other mortal. Basically humans that never aged.
This is not true of immortals in the Dresden Files. Immortals in the Dresden Files are not eternal, in fact I doubt anything is at all. Even the Universe ends eventually. But they are as close to eternal as most things can get. They don't age physically, they don't weaken. Even if their bodies (and generally magical defences) are breached and destroyed, they eventually will heal to full health. They will reform in time. It seems they are only vulnerable in highly unique circumstances, but by and large they cannot be killed. Immortals are not merely mortals that do not age, but beings that are locked in stasis. They are fixed points. They are unable to change who and what they are. This grants them power and protection, yet also seems to have purpose. But they lack the real freedom to really change things. Immortals are separate beings to mortals, a whole different type of creature. There is almost something elemental about them.
I would say the White Court are far more similar in their nigh-immortality to Tolkien's elves. Or perhaps the Bigfoot types.
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According to Mab’s definition of immortal. Maybe not everyone here uses the same definition.
It's your book when you read it and you can define it however you wish.
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It's your book when you read it and you can define it however you wish.
He could also be wrong to. Freedom of choice means freedom to be wrong. You could define the word "fish" to mean "bear" in your own head. But I doubt anyone else will agree with you or know what you are talking about.
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It's your book when you read it and you can define it however you wish.
But until every idee agrees on the definitions used communication will be difficult and inevitably leads to misunderstandings.
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Let's agree that Uriel is immortal as long as he retains his grace.
Harry's already been halfway to the other side, a soul is immortal.
Being unaging and naturally deathless is not the same as immortal. Mab is not immortal. She was not born immortal. She became immortal when she took up a fae mantle.
I'll refer you back to Bob's words in Cold Days. After about a decade, the person is lost behind the mantle. We've seen glimmers of this with Molly. Maeve entered Harry's birthday party bucky bare-assed. Molly did her "Welcome to the Jungle" entrance in Battle Ground clad only in frost. I'll be interested to see if Molly starts taking on Maeve's crazy, cock-tease personality.
Mab has been the Winter Queen for almost a thousand years. The mortal Mab can only peek out from behind the mantle on the Summer Solstice, when Winter has its weakest hold on her. She is mostly mantle at this point. Very little of Mab remains, on a day-to-day basis. But there has to be something left. Perhaps that's why the prior Summer Mother resigned?
In any event, Butcher's going to tell this tale sooner or later.
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Maeve was still that insufferable bitch ignoring her job and being Maeve after more than a century. Bob is not completely right.
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Well, my post was straight out of the dictionary and in line with the text. Which is not to say that Jim doesn't imagine it differently.
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In a very loose sense. Tolkien's Elves, particularly those of the Second and Third Age, were not semi-divine creatures. They were touched by some of that nature, and were creatures of two worlds (just like Faeries in mythology, and similar to how Leanansidhe describes herself). But the Elves of the Second and Third Age were really just extremely long-lived. They didn't age or weaken past maturity, but their bodies were as susceptible to the vulnerabilities of the flesh as any other mortal. Basically humans that never aged.
It is a little more complicated than that, the Elves of Middle Earth were exiles in a sense because they rebelled. The didn't weaken or age past maturity, however when the power of the Rings was broken they wearied of Middle Earth, repented and sailed into the West, where they lived on. They were no humans that never aged, though the children of Elrod could chose their fate to go into the West or remain in Middle Earth and live and die as mortals, Arwen chose this fate as did her two brothers. The Elves of the Greenwood save for Legolas did not tire of Middle Earth and go into the West.
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It is a little more complicated than that, the Elves of Middle Earth were exiles in a sense because they rebelled. The didn't weaken or age past maturity, however when the power of the Rings was broken they wearied of Middle Earth, repented and sailed into the West, where they lived on. They were no humans that never aged, though the children of Elrod could chose their fate to go into the West or remain in Middle Earth and live and die as mortals, Arwen chose this fate as did her two brothers. The Elves of the Greenwood save for Legolas did not tire of Middle Earth and go into the West.
But you miss the point. The Elves of Middle Earth never had any sort of special invulnerability, apart from the fact their bodies didn't age. First Age Elves were more like Faeries and were strong enough in some cases to fight Balrogs (Fallen Angels/Lesser Spirits), and even the Tolkien equivalent of Archangels/Gods/Greater Spirits (Valar) such as when Fingolfin fought Morgoth and lost. The Elves while of a different race, were not the same as Ainur. Ainur were the spirits made of the Greater (Valar) and the Lesser (Maiar). This difference between beings of the world like Elves, Men and Dwarves and the Ainur is the same difference between mortals and immortals in the Dresden Files.
But until every idee agrees on the definitions used communication will be difficult and inevitably leads to misunderstandings.
Exactly, and it's on us to understand what definition is relevant. When Tolkien wrote the Lord of the Rings he based many of his creatures and characters from mythology of our world. But when reading the books, it would be quite absurd to imagine the Elves of Middle Earth are the same Elves from Norse mythology, or the Dwarves etc. Tolkien created his own mythology, and made his own definition for certain words. So has Jim.
Well, my post was straight out of the dictionary and in line with the text. Which is not to say that Jim doesn't imagine it differently.
As above, what's relevant is Jim's definition.
Let's agree that Uriel is immortal as long as he retains his grace.
Harry's already been halfway to the other side, a soul is immortal.
Being unaging and naturally deathless is not the same as immortal. Mab is not immortal. She was not born immortal. She became immortal when she took up a fae mantle.
I'll refer you back to Bob's words in Cold Days. After about a decade, the person is lost behind the mantle. We've seen glimmers of this with Molly. Maeve entered Harry's birthday party bucky bare-assed. Molly did her "Welcome to the Jungle" entrance in Battle Ground clad only in frost. I'll be interested to see if Molly starts taking on Maeve's crazy, cock-tease personality.
Mab has been the Winter Queen for almost a thousand years. The mortal Mab can only peek out from behind the mantle on the Summer Solstice, when Winter has its weakest hold on her. She is mostly mantle at this point. Very little of Mab remains, on a day-to-day basis. But there has to be something left. Perhaps that's why the prior Summer Mother resigned?
In any event, Butcher's going to tell this tale sooner or later.
I see the problem. When you talk of 'Mab' you are referring to the person underneath the mantle of Queen of Air and Darkness, yes? I suppose that's a fair way to do it although as we know Mab is not in fact her real name. Seeing as we don't have that name, using 'Mab' is probably as good as anything. But saying 'Mab' is mortal is entirely different from saying the Queen of Air and Darkness is mortal.
To put it another way, let's say you take an Office. You become the Mayor. You don't stop being a citizen of the country you live in, you don't stop being you. But you are also no longer JUST you. You have become something else, something more. You hold rank. The Mayor as a position has made you into something beyond a regular citizen. So you can't just be a citizen either, you can no longer say "It's not my fault that the roads are bad, I'm just a citizen" because you now have the responsibility to look after roads (assuming local government looks after roads in this case).
So 'Mab' is no longer mortal. She took the Office of Winter Lady, and ended up renouncing her mortality. She chose to take on that power and responsibility, and seemingly has done a fairly good job. But she isn't whoever actually took that office originally. Sure, some of that person remains. Perhaps it's most obvious when things get personal with her (I suspect that's why she tries to keep things as impersonal as possible). But unless she were to renounce her Office and presumably all her power with that, she would remain an immortal. And if she did renounce (based on the evidence of the Red Court half-vampires) she would die not long after she gave up her power. The power has transformed her. It would take a transformation to go back, even assuming she could or would. '
Any such transformation from immortal to mortal and vice versa would be significant. When Uriel chose to become mortal by giving his grace to Michael Carpenter, he was transformed into a human being. In no way was this more obvious in that he bled when Harry accidentally punched him.
I think that because 'Mab' and 'Queen of Winter/Winter Queen/Queen of Air and Darkness' are used interchangeably, when people say Mab is immortal they don't mean the person who took the Office, they don't mean whoever she was beneath her power. If they did, you could say that about literally any being with power. Underneath, they are their original self. But it's not like Russian dolls. It's more like combining flour and water and yeast etc to make bread. 'Mab' is no more the person that she was than bread is the flour it was made of, it's something more. Something new and better than the some of it's parts, in most ways.
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I might have missed it, but when did Jim say he was using the Diablo creation myth? Or are you saying that's just your guess that he did?
It's a guess. I think it for a couple of reasons. The first is he's into those type of games, and the second is he like to take an idea, and put his own spin on it.
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It's a guess. I think it for a couple of reasons. The first is he's into those type of games, and the second is he like to take an idea, and put his own spin on it.
He at the very least is drawing on the Christian ideas about Creation, he was schooled in it for a very long time. But it is entirely possible he is combining that with something like Diablo or D&D.
In any case, I think it's rather like Tolkien in that Gods, Angels, and perhaps even Outsiders share the same origins in a way. They all come from before Creation. They are beings older than Time itself. Whether TWG or some other being created them is entirely unknown, although I'd be prepared to bet that at the very least the Angels (or their grace anyway) comes from TWG. The thing is if they all come from before Creation, then which beings were first becomes an entirely redundant question.
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He at the very least is drawing on the Christian ideas about Creation, he was schooled in it for a very long time. But it is entirely possible he is combining that with something like Diablo or D&D.
In any case, I think it's rather like Tolkien in that Gods, Angels, and perhaps even Outsiders share the same origins in a way. They all come from before Creation. They are beings older than Time itself. Whether TWG or some other being created them is entirely unknown, although I'd be prepared to bet that at the very least the Angels (or their grace anyway) comes from TWG. The thing is if they all come from before Creation, then which beings were first becomes an entirely redundant question.
Jim is probably using all creation myths he knows in some way and they are all true in the Dresdenverse. That includes the Norse one and Lovecraft.
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Jim is probably using all creation myths he knows in some way and they are all true in the Dresdenverse. That includes the Norse one and Lovecraft.
Indeed, that was his intention I believe. He wanted to find a way to make them all work in a respectful way.
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But you miss the point. The Elves of Middle Earth never had any sort of special invulnerability, apart from the fact their bodies didn't age. First Age Elves were more like Faeries and were strong enough in some cases to fight Balrogs (Fallen Angels/Lesser Spirits), and even the Tolkien equivalent of Archangels/Gods/Greater Spirits (Valar) such as when Fingolfin fought Morgoth and lost. The Elves while of a different race, were not the same as Ainur. Ainur were the spirits made of the Greater (Valar) and the Lesser (Maiar). This difference between beings of the world like Elves, Men and Dwarves and the Ainur is the same difference between mortals and immortals in the Dresden Files.
The Elves of the First Age were still capable of being duped.
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The Elves of the First Age were still capable of being duped.
Uriel was duped by Murphy’s father ;D
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Uriel was duped by Murphy’s father ;D
My point.
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Uriel was duped by Murphy’s father ;D
Was he? I mean, that really depends if you believe that Uriel didn't manipulate events to ensure Harry went on his little mission. Which is precisely Uriel's MO being Heaven's spymaster.
The Elves of the First Age were still capable of being duped.
As in...they were not immortal just lead to believe they were? Or were you making a different point?
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Was he? I mean, that really depends if you believe that Uriel didn't manipulate events to ensure Harry went on his little mission. Which is precisely Uriel's MO being Heaven's spymaster.
It was that or he was lying. Pick your choice.
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It was that or he was lying. Pick your choice.
That's a bit unsubtle for Uriel. I think he's a bit more like the Faeries, conveniently omitting certain information and even setting up others knowing they will act a certain way. I mean, he doesn't need to tell Jack Murphy to push Dresden. He knows who Jack is and what he is like, and he knows who Dresden is and what he is like. He sets up a situation knowing there is a very high chance of Harry being nudged into going back. Think about how the Fallen know how to lie so well. They spent eons watching humanity grow, and clearly from a multiverse level perspective - not just the Denarians either (who might actually be a bit more limited. They can see multiple possibilities which allow them to make very accurate predictions of the future and human behaviour. Uriel isn't a white knight. He plays around in the shadows. He is probably a bit more grey than most Angels, because that's what his job requires.
He didn't lie AND he wasn't duped by Murphy's father (which would assume you can dupe a being that exists in multiple timelines and exist both in the past, present and future).
He didn't need to lie. And I doubt he can be duped, at least not in those kind of circumstances.
So he set up his dominos and watched things play out.
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As in...they were not immortal just lead to believe they were? Or were you making a different point?
They still could be killed, even in the First Age.
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They still could be killed, even in the First Age.
Yeah I'm not disputing that. The main difference between the Elves of the First Age and those later is those of the First Age came from Valinor, they had the power and were beings of both worlds. It's why Galadriel is so strong, and Glorfindel. Later Elves, those born in Middle Earth didn't have that same might. Glorfindel had killed Balrogs but Legolas Greenleaf never could have done such a task. Yes, they were all able to be killed but there is an intrinsic difference between them. Elves that are of two worlds, and Elves that are mostly just of Middle Earth.
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Yeah I'm not disputing that. The main difference between the Elves of the First Age and those later is those of the First Age came from Valinor, they had the power and were beings of both worlds. It's why Galadriel is so strong, and Glorfindel. Later Elves, those born in Middle Earth didn't have that same might. Glorfindel had killed Balrogs but Legolas Greenleaf never could have done such a task. Yes, they were all able to be killed but there is an intrinsic difference between them. Elves that are of two worlds, and Elves that are far more just of Middle Earth.
Contributing to the tangent: I think it's a matter of potential. Elves who dwelt in Valinor are fully actualized, with all of their spiritual potential realized. Elves born in Middle Earth have to deal with the one-two-three of being born in eroding bodies, having to develop their potential themselves, and being more generations removed from the beginning.
I've long wondered if the total "spirit" of all elves is flat- that elves give of their own fea to have children, inherently making children less than their parents- with the exception of Feanor, who consumed all of his mother plus his share of his father.
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Contributing to the tangent: I think it's a matter of potential. Elves who dwelt in Valinor are fully actualized, with all of their spiritual potential realized. Elves born in Middle Earth have to deal with the one-two-three of being born in eroding bodies, having to develop their potential themselves, and being more generations removed from the beginning.
I've long wondered if the total "spirit" of all elves is flat- that elves give of their own fea to have children, inherently making children less than their parents- with the exception of Feanor, who consumed all of his mother plus his share of his father.
That's an interesting theory. And it fits a bit. Considering part of the whole deal with the Elves immortality was that once their physical bodies died they died for good, whereas Men got to live on in the Halls of Mandos (I think).
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That's an interesting theory. And it fits a bit. Considering part of the whole deal with the Elves immortality was that once their physical bodies died they died for good, whereas Men got to live on in the Halls of Mandos (I think).
They got to move on "beyond," what ever that was, Tolkien never explained what that was.
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That's an interesting theory. And it fits a bit. Considering part of the whole deal with the Elves immortality was that once their physical bodies died they died for good, whereas Men got to live on in the Halls of Mandos (I think).
Men spent some time in Mandos then passed beyond.
Elves spent time in Mandos meditating upon their deeds, good and bad, and once they had repented enough, they were released by reincarnation into identical physical bodies within Valinor. So it's like a combination of Purgatory+Reincarnation.
As far as I am aware, Tolkien dithered on whether only Felagund and Glorfindel among the Exiles were re-embodied, or whether only Feanor was trapped due to Feanor's inability to repent.
In Valinor, it is implied their bodies don't suffer the diminuation they see in Middle Earth.
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Men spent some time in Mandos then passed beyond.
Elves spent time in Mandos meditating upon their deeds, good and bad, and once they had repented enough, they were released by reincarnation into identical physical bodies within Valinor. So it's like a combination of Purgatory+Reincarnation.
As far as I am aware, Tolkien dithered on whether only Felagund and Glorfindel among the Exiles were re-embodied, or whether only Feanor was trapped due to Feanor's inability to repent.
In Valinor, it is implied their bodies don't suffer the diminuation they see in Middle Earth.
I think his big thing was Luthien and Beren. Talk about choices..
Of Luthien and Beren from The Silmarillion, she had the choice to go to Valimar, but here, Beren could not go so...
For it was not permitted to the Valar to withhold Death from him, which is the gift of Iluvator to Men. But the other choice was this: that she might return to Middle-earth, and with her Beren, there to dwell again, but without certitude of life or joy. Then she'd become mortal, and subject to a second death, even as he; and ere long she would leave the world for ever, and her beauty would only become only a memory in song.
Thus she was the only elf to truly die until Arwen gave up her heritage to wed Aragorn.
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I think his big thing was Luthien and Beren. Talk about choices..
Of Luthien and Beren from The Silmarillion, she had the choice to go to Valimar, but here, Beren could not go so...
Thus she was the only elf to truly die until Arwen gave up her heritage to wed Aragorn.
I think that's underselling Elros.