Well, if Cowl is Harry from the future, he lost quite a bit of height at some point. In the description of Cowl, no where does it mention that Cowl is even a tall man, let alone 6'9".
I'm not sure what to think. Several theories sound plausible to me. I still put my money on Justin or Kemmler or Kemmler in Justin's body Corpstaker style, but this is not the point here.
But @Mira: has his heighth ever been mentioned? I seem to remember this having been a discussion point somewhere. That usually Harry mentioned how tall someone is, when describing the person. His not noting Cowl's heighth could be that he somehow veiled it.
@Marconesque:
The phrase is not uncommon. I've read that several times in completely unrelated writings. Sometimes not in English, so I believe this is coincidence.
"Disappointing," he said. "I'd hoped you were ready for the heavyweight division."
However, Cowl also says in their first fight.
Seems to me if Cowl was future Harry he'd know exactly how ready he was for a fight. Cowl also says he wanted to see for himself as to why the wardens were nervous about Harry. If he was Harry, he'd know why.
If an argument has to rely on more than one presumption it is a bad argument, future Harry AND mindwipe.
Alright, then we can assume he is 100s years old and has a vague memory of the competence in his younger days
I assumed the shivers were because, "If I were mad, how would I know?" is a statement worthy of some shivers -- especially given the Sheila/Lash subplot.
Remember when Harry meets "Sheila" and Bock sees him talking to her and gives Harry a look. There's a whole paragraph on how much it hurt Harry's feelings. Then he steps outside and meets Cowl.
This is one of my go to theories... Buuuut, Nicodemus actually says this to him in SmF... So it could well have been Nic and Deidre...IIRC he just got a general "taller than Kumori" statement.
*I thought cowl was mentioned as indiscriminately around Dresden's height?
I've never really found cowl to be actively trying to kill harry though, I think his fine control is better than Harry, and so when he put just enough power in his strike to make harry flip tail over tea kettle it was intentional. And again when he perfectly shorted out LC without blowing it up in Harry's face.The other problem with Cowl being Harry is that, as you pointed out, his fine control is way better than Harry's. He'd have to be Harry from decades if not centuries in the future.
Not necessarily, I'm sure, under this theory one of the cowls would have been harry with Lasciel and Harry if he'd done the darkhallow, which would be him in DB. Such a change would give him power and control no?
In that version, I'm thinking 'the circle' is actually the different Harry's that came back to different points in time. But I could be misremembering who mentioned the circle 🤔
*I do not know the correct terminology for it, but the effect of 'whatever happens in the past effects the present time traveler by default' is at play I think.. looper is the best example I can think of... Predestination had that effect too to some extent.. great movie, better than the book even!
Cowl needed the book so he could perform the Darkhallow, Harry with Laciel's help read the book and learned how to do the Darkhallow, he confirms that as one of his options in Changes. So if Cowl was future Harry, he'd know how to do the Darkhallow so he wouldn't have to come back in time to get the book so he could do it when he attempted to do it in Dead Beat.he'd have to make fate linear? It's probably more the proverbial care fate change bob talks about... A few times in the series cars simply change model mid scene, the book was the key to the future.. mmm, almost like back to the future two lmao..
he'd have to make fate linear? It's probably more the proverbial care fate change bob talks about... A few times in the series cars simply change model mid scene, the book was the key to the future.. mmm, almost like back to the future two lmao..
*That scene at bock's is one of them, the flipped car iirc.
I think you are going to have to do a bit better than that to make your argument.not really no, the scene outside bock's store changes the car, shows evidence of TT changes, I don't actually have to 'do better' than to point out primary in book evidence and then give a valid correlation, he knew he had to contain the book because the fate of the book was the key to the whole thing. You can take that mcguffin and apply various outcomes to it's fate that would directly change the future. Say, if Harry had decided to keep it and learn from it directly for instance, one simple choice changes everything, they were there to alter it's path.
not really no, the scene outside bock's store changes the car, shows evidence of TT changes, I don't actually have to 'do better' than to point out primary in book evidence and then give a valid correlation, he knew he had to contain the book because the fate of the book was the key to the whole thing. You can take that mcguffin and apply various outcomes to it's fate that would directly change the future. Say, if Harry had decided to keep it and learn from it directly for instance, one simple choice changes everything, they were there to alter it's path.
"Just as well," Cowl murmured. "I have wanted to see for myself what has the Wardens so nervous about you."This is about as definitive as it gets.
That proves nothing.. Not to mention that the Harry of this time learned how to use Darkhallow, so the Harry of the future i.e. Cowl would still have that knowledge and not need the book. Further why would he have to come back in time to set if off knowing that his past self would stop him?he didn't know his past self would stop him, what harry did when he stopped it was obviously a choice.. he was probably trying to keep Harry from reading the book to begin with. I just said it was about changing the fate of the book itself, not Cowl learning how to do the dark hallow.
This is about as definitive as it gets.
Even if future Harry had forgotten quite how far along his brawling skills were that particular year, there's still the question of how he'd know what the wardens thought of him at that point in time.
Now, you can speculate that present Peabody passed their reports to future Harry as Cowl ... but Simon would have been receiving those same reports up until his "death".
He knows his skill vaguely because he's likely older several decades, so how could he imply he knows about it to Harry without revealing his identity?
Of course he needs to be manipulative and lie to Harry, imagine if he would outright say
"I have a vague memory of your, or should I say my skill, so let's see what my past self was all about"
he didn't know his past self would stop him, what harry did when he stopped it was obviously a choice.. he was probably trying to keep Harry from reading the book to begin with. I just said it was about changing the fate of the book itself, not Cowl learning how to do the dark hallow.Oh, well for a guy who wasn't interested in learning how to do Darkhallow, Cowl made a pretty good
Of course becoming a Black Court vampire would allow Murphy to get over her current physical limitations, everyone plumps for Valkyrie or Einenjaren, but why not?
Since this is a book of course anything is possible. However Cowl shows up multiple times and attempts to kill Harry after the initial contact in Dead Beat. Specifically in White Knight. Once when Harry is watching Grey Cloak with LC and a second time in the Raith Deeps. So what is the point of the two attacks? Either Cowl can't kill Harry because the universe is deterministic and he can't change it, or he risks paradox if he succeeds. This is one objection. The second objection is to the purpose within the greater story?the only one to mention the circle is cowl yes? We are making the assumption that the circle is the same as the black council because that's the assumption Harry has made, we don't know how, if at all, the two are connected. Although I do consider, if Harry's IS traveling through time, then it would make sense if another harry is doing the same with opposite intentions. Idk that he's actually trying to actively kill him though again, every time he shows up he's changing something like, if he hadn't been in the deeps/ messing with outsiders would Lash have sacrificed herself into Bonnie? Lash clearly makes a choice there, a choice cowl had a hand in forcing.
In Proven Guilty, assuming the text is to be believed, the whole purpose of the events of the books served to stop a plot to kill Harry by the Circle. Cowl is a member of the Circle. Why that plot?
@pretty much everyone, enough with the snark for theories you don't understand. Im sitting here trying to explain, stop, and listen please and thank you.
Here now, it's this simple, in DB, future Harry had already seen that the dark hallow goes down, ergo it being such a large event conservation of history is in effect, ergo when he says in answer to Harry saying nobody needs to take it,"I just don't see that happening" he's being quite literal. In his timeline someone pulled it off so to him it HAS to happen, what harry did with a knife to his throat was another free will choice, he stopped(actually just delayed but whatever) the darkhallow that was destined to happen that night. It's all actually very explainable. I can't pull your questions out of thin air so I don't know what confounds you so until you say it in type bub.
And here's my version of snark for ya, Mavra is Morgana, she's trying to use the dark hallow to reverse her undeath because it's stopping her from being Nemesis incarnate 🤓 make of that one what you will.
Perhaps future Harry is also Eb, travelling back in time to be his own grandpa. Don’t let the foot plus difference in height fool you. They both named their daughter Maggie.
IIRC he just got a general "taller than Kumori" statement.The other problem with Cowl being Harry is that, as you pointed out, his fine control is way better than Harry's. He'd have to be Harry from decades if not centuries in the future.I remember now from a FB group question, Cowl in the Deeps is Harry with Lasciel. they wanted to know what form harry would take with her coin. From the stark contrast in Nic and Harry's mirroring I predict Lasciel would manifest similar to Anduriel, except aflame. That flaming bird in the deeps, I think that was Lasciel. So his control would indeed have been supplemented.
the only one to mention the circle is cowl yes? We are making the assumption that the circle is the same as the black council because that's the assumption Harry has made, we don't know how, if at all, the two are connected. Although I do consider, if Harry's IS traveling through time, then it would make sense if another harry is doing the same with opposite intentions. Idk that he's actually trying to actively kill him though again, every time he shows up he's changing something like, if he hadn't been in the deeps/ messing with outsiders would Lash have sacrificed herself into Bonnie? Lash clearly makes a choice there, a choice cowl had a hand in forcing.Given what Jim has told us about time travel consider that his model attempts to get rid of the largest problem with time travel stories. They break cause and effect. The idea is that if you change the past you split the time line.
The purpose in story, would be changing the timeline, why that's needed depends. I favor him hopping through time to get back to his own reality on jump at at time, but it could well be he has to do so to fix the realities where MM Harry drew the other Harry's from, maybe a mission assigned by Uriel?
“A twinned universe,” Vadderung said. “A new parallel reality, identical except for that event. One in which you never existed, and one in which you failed to kill your grandfather.” I pursed my lips. “That . . . doesn’t really end well for me in either case.” “An excellent reason not to meddle in the natural course of time, wouldn’t you say? Meddling with time is an irrationally, outrageously, catastrophically dangerous and costly business. I encourage you to avoid it at all costs.”
Butcher, Jim. Cold Days (The Dresden Files, Book 14) (p. 215). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
Given what Jim has told us about time travel consider that his model attempts to get rid of the largest problem with time travel stories. They break cause and effect. The idea is that if you change the past you split the time line.this is very true but to point out two things, if the timeline we are reading has already been changed, then it's not the original and Harry was only fated to die after the timeline had already been played with, so there's already timelines where he would continue to exist. And the thing with Marcones thug, Kumori does that, and within a cpl hours Cowl moves to confront Harry. I think his absence is significant. If harry died in that Alley he would have been eaten by the ghoul. There wouldn't even be anything to revive via necromancy. I think she had to alter Harry's fate in order for cowl to appear, because he DID die and in such a way he couldn't have come back and ergo couldn't have traveled back in time. There's two of them.
This implies that if Harry goes back in time and changes things that he branches time and creates another him when he does it. So in a timeline where Susan doesn't die for instance, there is another Harry there. Supposedly this is the premise of Mirror Mirror. Vadderung lays this out in Cold Days.
This idea breaks a lot of theories around Harry coming back from the future to do anything. So if Harry was destined to die during the first use of LC, then no universe would exist after that point that had Harry in it. To create a timeline where Harry exists after that point, someone other than Harry would have to change the event. So if by Harry's death the Outsiders manage to break in through the gates, then someone from that timeline could jump to Harry's past and fix LC, but the universe they came from wouldn't change. But a new time line would spawn where Harry doesn't die.
And herein lies the problem with time travel. Anything is possible and what is the point of theorizing? Could it be true in the book. Yes. Time travel solves all problems.it's not solving all the problems, they're all just wrapped up in a neat bow for time travel to solve. The idea the outer gates has Anything to do with LC is just as much of a jump, if not more so, than it's a TT device. Being used to thaumaturgically connect to the past is a sound theory. Where as the OG connects to LC because Mab knows how to recreate a scene in ice and snow? I don't see the connection... And Mab using a scrying eye(something seen time and again in the DF, shadow man does the same thing, he's not connected to LC) to watch Marcone and recreating it doesn't connect with anything actually done at the outer gates. Heck if anything it's a Molly is Mab theory connection, she learned the gist of how to recreate a city from her old master lol. And Vittorio is the one working FOR cowl, so that still doesn't connect any other element at large to the circle, just cowl, which was my point.
Little Chicago isn't a time travel device. It's big brother may be the outer gates. Jim uses the same imagery in describing Marcone's kidnapping with Mab watching and Harry's use of LC in the scene where Cowl attacks him through LC. And by the way it is in that scene in White Knight that the title the Circle is used by Vittorio Malvora when talking to Madrigal. Later in Cold Days Harry realizes that his view is too narrow.
No, that was Susan...
He knows his skill vaguely because he's likely older several decades, so how could he imply he knows about it to Harry without revealing his identity?
Of course he needs to be manipulative and lie to Harry, imagine if he would outright say
"I have a vague memory of your, or should I say my skill, so let's see what my past self was all about"
Why even say anything? It obviously didn't manipulate Harry, because he doesn't seem to have based any attempt to figure out who Cowl is on the comment.
I used the phrase may be, not is. I offered a theory of time travel for the Dresden Files. And what little support there is for it in the text.Amen to the rant.. ;)
Rant incoming.(click to show/hide)
Amen to the rant.. ;)yea, even I have to admit the genoska coming back flummoxed me entirely. That's the kind of thing an immortal with a mantle could do, but he wasn't, he had to be mortal to use the coin..
Cowl is Peter Parker + Carnage symbiote from another dimension with the abillity to do magic
DR Who, he/she is a Time Lord and can regenerate! ;)
That would mean the entire Black Council is nothing more than different future regenerations of Cowl all working together, including Kumori and Peabody, the final regeneration. It would explain how he keeps getting ‘killed’ but comes back.
yea, even I have to admit the genoska coming back flummoxed me entirely. That's the kind of thing an immortal with a mantle could do, but he wasn't, he had to be mortal to use the coin..