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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Conspiracy Theorist on July 17, 2020, 09:32:08 AM
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We get some nice exposition and theorising in book on the Sword of Faith, but there are a couple of points which may have been deliberately overlooked.
The renewed Sword is more in the spirit world, it can’t harm mortals, but is even more damaging to Monsters, at least the evil ones. It was speculated that it would harm genuinely evil mortals like Nicky, he reaction to Butters was extreme. But what if it wasn’t Nicky’s reaction but Anduriel’s? The previous effect of a Sword stroke on a Denarian was to injure or kill the mortal and release the coin. Could the renewed sword of faith injure or kill the Fallen Angel instead?
There has been speculation that if applied to Thomas it might kill his hunger but not Thomas, but in his weakened condition it would probably kill him anyway to remove the hunger. What would the Angel do in those circumstances? Thomas has as part of being imprisoned suffered the hurt he has inflicted on others, and genuinely does not want to do what he has had to do as a Whampire. He is not evil, but in this case killing the hunger will kill Thomas. Perhaps the Angel does something different, and changes the hunger, or does nothing at all. The wielders intention affects the operation of the swords (free will), and the knowledge of this by the wielder means they are a more flexible tool than they were previously.
This isn’t the only such issue raised in Peace Talks, the summoning of Molly and her Crossing the magic circle raises similar issues of separation of flesh and spirit, she could do so but what was left wouldn’t be Molly any more. The sword could probably cut away the Mantle, but what would be left wouldn’t be Molly. What would the Angel do? Probably nothing as it would harm an innocent mortal to affect the Mantle.
How would the Sword work on Goodman Gray?, he is a monster, and admits it, but does good deeds for a peppercorn as his ‘rent’. Would it harm him, do nothing at all or change him? He is half mortal. We know he is wary of the Carpenters Guardian Angels. Could it sever the evil Naagloshii part of his heritage, leaving him a mortal human?
How would it work on Fix a mortal changeling? His Mantle is not inherently evil, nor is his Fae heritage. probably nothing at all.
Harry was able to put his hand in the blade indicating that the Winter Mantle is not inherently evil, and affected by the sword, but would a blow to the head from the sword sever Harry from the Mantle?
We have seen something similar in Changes with the half Ramps, some had their vampire half excised and survived as being relatively newly turned. The unravelling from the Mothers would have achieved the same end, so there is in series precedent for some of the above speculation.
Oh, and Butters had better get a gun.
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Killing the Fallen would be huge.
Is Fix a changeling or did he choose becoming a mortal by accepting the Summer Knight Mantle? I think there's a WoJ about how Lily wasn't a changeling when she became Summer Knight.
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WOJ (Pre Split) was that Butters will have a big moment in PT. unless his domestic arrangements count, we have yet to see it and it will be in BG.
We have seen some exposition on the Faithsabre in PT, and I think it leads up to Butters big moment in that the swords are powered by angels, they are insanely powerful within their limitations. We also saw Butters using the Faithsabre in combat like a lightsaber, it’s lack of weight making him much faster than a conventional swordsman like Sasha.
I think Butters big moment is that from Star Wars were an energy blast is deflected back at the person firing it by a lightsaber. I think a large part of Ethnui’s defeat will be Butters deflecting the blast from the Eye of Baylor back at Ethnui with the Faithsabre seriously damaging her, allowing Harry to get close, draw blood, and knock her back to the lakeshore with his staff’s superpunch and do a summoning.
That would be so cool, especially if Butters gets to do it before the assembled forces. The Sword should be able to do this from what we have seen.
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I don't think it could kill a Fallen, unless the Fallen was made mortal. That's sort of the point of being an Immortal. It isn't the purpose of the Knights to kill the Fallen. It is their purpose to save mankind from them, including those who pick up the Denarians. It does mean they have to kill them occasionally when faced with death themselves or greater evil (which isn't to say they didn't have a choice not to kill...) but the Knights are not meant to be murderers. They are defenders.
I am sure that as a rule, if the being is mortal enough it won't kill them. If the being is supernatural but not immortal, it will. For the crossbreeds that are not immortal, but not necessarily mortal (like Goodman Grey) I am sure it's a case by case thing. The whole whole thing about how absolute something is....
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The Faithsabre can probably weaken and injure an immortal, at most cause them to temporarily dissipate until they can pull themselves together.
I think Yuillegan you are absolutely right and I think ultimately Michael will convince Nic/Anduriel to reverse their Fall and put down the coin. I think that is the ultimate expression of all their arcs, and why Michael survived being a Knight of the Sword, his purpose isn’t done yet, and he is still doing the White Gods work, remember on occasions Michael has been a conduit for the White Gods power as far back as Grave Peril without the Sword.
Angel v Fallen Angel would more likely injure the solar system more than the angels. It may be able to sever the host from the coin. But against Ethnui and the Eye of Balor? Definitely it should be able to weaken her and deflect back the energy of the Eye, the latter useful as Harry is worried about being able to get close enough with the Athame to draw blood
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If the coins could have been destroyed they would have been destroyed. The Knights at any point could have cut them into tiny pieces with the swords if that would have worked. And the fallen live in the coins.
I guess it makes sense that the swords have riders since they have been portrayed, since the beginning, as being semi sentient. The case of Murphy charging up the pyramid in Changes comes to mind.
I don't think Thomas will be saved by Butters, since by implication the prison cell was used to keep him alive, but I suppose it is possible that Butters could go to the island. But I think that Butters will save the child from his demon and at the same time save Justine.
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I guess it makes sense that the swords have riders since they have been portrayed, since the beginning, as being semi sentient. The case of Murphy charging up the pyramid in Changes comes to mind.
Which totally put her off becoming a Knight, she didn't want to be a sock puppet for any being, including an angel or archangel.
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Which totally put her off becoming a Knight, she didn't want to be a sock puppet for any being, including an angel or archangel.
I think that's true to a point. But I also think that she just realised that was her time done after Chichen Itza. Nicodemus said that most Knights only serve for a few days. I wouldn't be surprised by this either. A situational solution. Jim has long hinted at the fact that the 3 swords are in use concurrently is a sign of the times.
If the coins could have been destroyed they would have been destroyed. The Knights at any point could have cut them into tiny pieces with the swords if that would have worked. And the fallen live in the coins.
I guess it makes sense that the swords have riders since they have been portrayed, since the beginning, as being semi sentient. The case of Murphy charging up the pyramid in Changes comes to mind.
I don't think Thomas will be saved by Butters, since by implication the prison cell was used to keep him alive, but I suppose it is possible that Butters could go to the island. But I think that Butters will save the child from his demon and at the same time save Justine.
I agree, the Swords and the Coins are not meant to be destroyed. Not as things stand. In fact, I think the Swords would be taken out of play if the Coins were removed. It's all a matter of balance.
Not sure I agree about the saving of Thomas' kid. Jim needs problems to solve...having Thomas have a child with all of Thomas' possible failings would be an excellent way to torture him. But it also provides opportunity for Thomas to better himself and forgive himself, and to create a better being by helping his child avoid or learn better from Thomas' own mistake.
The Faithsabre can probably weaken and injure an immortal, at most cause them to temporarily dissipate until they can pull themselves together.
I think Yuillegan you are absolutely right and I think ultimately Michael will convince Nic/Anduriel to reverse their Fall and put down the coin. I think that is the ultimate expression of all their arcs, and why Michael survived being a Knight of the Sword, his purpose isn’t done yet, and he is still doing the White Gods work, remember on occasions Michael has been a conduit for the White Gods power as far back as Grave Peril without the Sword.
Angel v Fallen Angel would more likely injure the solar system more than the angels. It may be able to sever the host from the coin. But against Ethnui and the Eye of Balor? Definitely it should be able to weaken her and deflect back the energy of the Eye, the latter useful as Harry is worried about being able to get close enough with the Athame to draw blood
I mean, I think the regular Swords of the Cross can injure Immortals. To what extent they can ignore armour (magic or otherwise) and magical defensive energies and wards is unknown. But Michael has slain a capital-D Dragon before, so I'd say the Swords have a good chance of injuring and even destroying Immortals. Whether they are down for good or whether they will reform in a few decades or whatever is harder to see. We just don't know enough about the Swords or the limits of being a true Immortal.
The Faithsaber isn't necessarily more powerful than Kusanagi. It is stronger in some areas, weaker in others. Clearly Butters will have an advantage with physical obstructions. He might be able to cut through doors easier and of course he can cut through purely physical weapons like regular swords - so he has some advantage in duels. But he clearly can't even damage most mortals, and anyone who realises this will have him at a serious disadvantage. I suspect that Butters will be in the most danger from beings like the Servitors/Turtlenecks.
I think we are a long way from Nic putting down his Coin. Jim has hinted at Nicodemus' path before. I suspect he will be in the series right up to the last book. Whether Michael helps him relent or not is another question. Nicodemus' greatest sin is pride. And unfortunately, you can't hear much truth through pride.
True. An Angel vs Fallen Angel would be immensely destructive (assuming they were able to access their full power). Which begs the question why would they even attempt to injure each other if they couldn't? I think they are somewhat capable of injuring each other, perhaps in certain circumstances even kill each other, and containing/binding each other. But I think because they are mostly limited in their power this is why their war isn't mostly acts of contested violence, but acts of conversation. Truth vs Lies. Biggest and most important war there is.
I suspect Butters has more chance of separating a host from the Fallen through words than through the sword. It's always all about Choice. That's why Michael tried words, tried to convince Nic to give up his Coin and his path.
As for Ethniu and her father's Eye...we shall see. I do suspect it will be able to injure her of course. She won't understand how or why. Perhaps in a way that the other Swords cannot. I don't know it will be able to deflect the Eye though. That assumes the Eye works like a laser beam (like Cyclops in the movies). From what we have seen (and how it has been discussed by Harry) it seems more like a radiation weapon. How can you deflect something like that? Even if it were a laser-like weapon, what if the breadth of the beam were larger than Butter's little saber (which would surely be the case)? He would block part of it only to get killed by the energy spilling over/past.
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I suspect that Butters will be in the most danger from beings like the Servitors/Turtlenecks.
Depending on how human Servitors/Turtlenecks are, but lackeys are definitely going to be a major problem for him.
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The idea of the sword now directly threatening the fallen seems off to me too. The cosmic heaven/hell battle seems to be governed by cold war rules, where they're mostly trying to put one over on the other side through proxies and schemes. Outright capping one of the other side's elite seems like an escalation that would invite a response.
I'm not even sold on the idea that an angel living in the sword makes it powerful enough to outright kill another angel. That seems like an even fight.
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I think that's true to a point. But I also think that she just realised that was her time done after Chichen Itza. Nicodemus said that most Knights only serve for a few days. I wouldn't be surprised by this either. A situational solution. Jim has long hinted at the fact that the 3 swords are in use concurrently is a sign of the times.
She uses it at the end of Changes, that she doesn't like being a sock puppet as the archangel spoke through her. She ideas about crime,punishment, and justice differ from the rules the Knights are supposed to go by.
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Personally, my first thought was whether or not Butters could shave with it. It seems like the ultimate safety razor. And either of the other Swords could cut the hair of a willing innocent without violating their mandate. So, I'd like to see Butters shave with a lightsaber.