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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Yuillegan on December 22, 2019, 11:43:15 PM
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1) Ortega calls Harry a self-righteous madman who will "destroy us all". What is he talking about? Harry might be self-righteous and has a few times been accused of being crazy, but how would Harry's actions destroy everyone? My guess is that the Reds don't want the end of the world, they simply want to be on top when it comes. Harry's early start to the war interferes with that plan and perhaps Ortega believes only the Red Court would have the power to control the outcome of the end times - an event or series of event that lots of players seem aware of that is imminent.
2) Martin believed Ortega was trying to delay the full war for another 20 years. It has almost been 20 years by our time, but lets say that Dresden is a few years behind us right now for various reasons. What happens in the next few years from Peace Talks? Book 20 for one and the end of the case files (maybe) and the beginning of the BAT. So at least according to Jim Butcher's original timeline for the series, why would the Reds want to wait until the BAT to start their war?
3) Nicodemus refers to his "schedule". This links with the whole BAT thing. I suspect he knew that the Shroud wasn't the "real" Shroud but he knew it had enough juice to do what he wanted.
4) Mordite is first introduced. This is not an accident.
5) Lord Raith is scared of Ortega. At full power I cannot imagine that Ortega would have been able to take a fully powered up Lord Raith. But I can understand why Lord Raith was afraid of Ortega in his weakened state. But I also wonder if this was more to do with who Ortega represented, Ariana for one, but perhaps the Circle? It seems likely that she was a part of it.
6) The connection between Maggie, Justin, Lord Raith, Ariana, Ortega and Nicodemus is hinted at over the books. And oddly enough but more subtly, Ebenezar.
7) Denarians are definitely stronger in this book. Specifically they all use more anti-magic via their Fallen.
8 ) Some odd continuity errors. Harry doesn't have his bracelet during the Duel with Ortega and he doesn't have it during the fight immediately afterwards. He even specifically notes that it is harder to create a shield without one, and then in the following paragraph when the shield fails he says his bracelet began to burn his wrist. Obviously the Churchmice-Marcone buyer plot point is retconned in Skin Games. And Sanya claims that Michael's armor will not stop bullets - yet we know that Charity put ceramic and kevlar in. And of course the eye color change. Initially the Fallen's eyes are orange, and the host has green. But then it reverses mid book, in the same scene! Forever after the Fallen have green eyes. And by Small Favor the glyph/symbol of the Fallen no longer appears on the forehead of the vessel.
9) Denarians release a contagion - a cocktail of every virus known to man and probably a few more that are unknown. However when reading this again I immediately thought of another thing: the contagion of the spirit spreading around the world. Nemesis.
10) In this book we learn that the forces of Hell get a power boost from destruction and mayhem. The plague will create an environment that makes them more powerful. We also learn later on that the Black Court of Vampires also gain power this way - see the WOJ on how the Black Court level up. Finally, a recent WOJ in response to a fan question about the Spanish Flu also implied that it was not merely a bad contagion, but was essentially a bio-weapon attack. My theory is that perhaps there is a link between the forces of Hell and the Black Court, perhaps they even work together. But more on that in another thread.
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I think the events of the BAT are arriving ahead of schedule. That's why Nicodemus is in a hurry to break into Hades vault.
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And Sanya claims that Michael's armor will not stop bullets - yet we know that Charity put ceramic and kevlar in.
I might be misremembering, but I thought this one was explained as Sanya not knowing about the kevlar and stuff.
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5) Lord Raith is scared of Ortega. At full power I cannot imagine that Ortega would have been able to take a fully powered up Lord Raith. But I can understand why Lord Raith was afraid of Ortega in his weakened state. But I also wonder if this was more to do with who Ortega represented, Ariana for one, but perhaps the Circle? It seems likely that she was a part of it.
Paolo and Ariana didn't exactly have a conventionally close relationship, though. She seems to have been on the Circle, but his vehement opposition to drawing out a balanced war like the Circle wanted strongly suggests he wasn't.
When he said Harry's stubbornness would 'destroy us all' I think he was accusing Harry of playing into the Circle's hands. I don't think he necessarily had enough of the pieces to know what was coming in the BAT scenario or have a strong plan to play it to the Reds' advantage, but he recognized some part of the Circle was moving to destabilize the supernatural nations.
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I think the events of the BAT are arriving ahead of schedule. That's why Nicodemus is in a hurry to break into Hades vault.
That seems likely. But I also think there is a definite link between when the war was "meant" to happen and the events that will happen in the BAT.
I might be misremembering, but I thought this one was explained as Sanya not knowing about the kevlar and stuff.
Except why would Michael say that his Faith protects him against bullets in that scene to Sanya? It seems pretty clear in this scene that Sanya is more modern and Michael is more old world.
Paolo and Ariana didn't exactly have a conventionally close relationship, though. She seems to have been on the Circle, but his vehement opposition to drawing out a balanced war like the Circle wanted strongly suggests he wasn't.
When he said Harry's stubbornness would 'destroy us all' I think he was accusing Harry of playing into the Circle's hands. I don't think he necessarily had enough of the pieces to know what was coming in the BAT scenario or have a strong plan to play it to the Reds' advantage, but he recognized some part of the Circle was moving to destabilize the supernatural nations.
Specifically what the relationship was described as was volatile. She would call for him then send him away to keep her hatred hot. What's your reasoning to say that the Circle wanted a protracted, balanced conflict? If anything they wanted the opposite.
Ariana wanted to end the war. Her first appearance in Changes is for exactly that, she sues for peace. They also try to end the war in Summer Knight. Shiro explains to Harry in Death Masks that the Red Court wanted a war, they wanted a fight and he was set up. But it was sooner than some would have liked, which is why they wanted to end it early and gather their strength for a final decisive blow.
Paolo may not have known all the pieces to the puzzle, he may not even be on the Circle. But he did plan and execute the attack on Archangel. He was prepared to attempt to kill the dangerous Wizard Dresden himself. He even had a pretty good plan that was mostly thwarted by Martin, and stopped altogether by Ebenezar. And he was associated with a few characters who seem to be linked to the Circle, if not outright members of it.
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Specifically what the relationship was described as was volatile. She would call for him then send him away to keep her hatred hot. What's your reasoning to say that the Circle wanted a protracted, balanced conflict? If anything they wanted the opposite.
In my opinion the jury is out on that one. I don't think there is enough evidence either way, personal ambition and vendettas yes, but that doesn't make an over all stradagy. If we believe
that Shiro was speaking from actual knowledge of what the Reds and the Circle wanted verses
just trying to make Harry feel less like he was the blame for the beginning of the war, the Circle
did want war, but not at this time. Harry's actions goaded their cat's paw into war before they
were ready for it. So in my opinion we have no information on what kind of war the Circle
wanted to fight, only that Harry's actions with Ortega pushed their cat's paw at least into one before they were ready to fight it.
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1) Ortega calls Harry a self-righteous madman who will "destroy us all". What is he talking about? Harry might be self-righteous and has a few times been accused of being crazy, but how would Harry's actions destroy everyone? My guess is that the Reds don't want the end of the world, they simply want to be on top when it comes. Harry's early start to the war interferes with that plan and perhaps Ortega believes only the Red Court would have the power to control the outcome of the end times - an event or series of event that lots of players seem aware of that is imminent...
I don't think Ortega's POV is as capacious as to include everyone in the world as part of "us."
I think he was just talking about the Red Court vs. the White Council; that Harry would precipitate a war, which would be so debilitating (to both sides) that neither could long survive.
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I might be misremembering, but I thought this one was explained as Sanya not knowing about the kevlar and stuff.
I recall Harry saying something along the lines of "Faith, huh?" when he learns of the kevlar. Harry says something about Charity making Michael use it and Michael responding that Charity made his armor and put it there herself.
My view is that the Red Court wanted an overwhelming victory, and what the Circle wanted could be something else entirely. It could be that the Circle was who maneuvered Harry into starting the war early because they wanted to greatly weaken both the vampires and the wizards.
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What's your reasoning to say that the Circle wanted a protracted, balanced conflict? If anything they wanted the opposite.
Their entire M.O. is degrading all the status quo power nations to create a vacuum.
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Their entire M.O. is degrading all the status quo power nations to create a vacuum.
That could be true, so what is the role of the Foman in all of this? Are they working with Circle? Or
are they just another cat's paw who thinks they have power?
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1) Ortega calls Harry a self-righteous madman who will "destroy us all". What is he talking about? Harry might be self-righteous and has a few times been accused of being crazy, but how would Harry's actions destroy everyone? My guess is that the Reds don't want the end of the world, they simply want to be on top when it comes. Harry's early start to the war interferes with that plan and perhaps Ortega believes only the Red Court would have the power to control the outcome of the end times - an event or series of event that lots of players seem aware of that is imminent.
Yeah I’d agree with most of that
2) Martin believed Ortega was trying to delay the full war for another 20 years. It has almost been 20 years by our time, but lets say that Dresden is a few years behind us right now for various reasons. What happens in the next few years from Peace Talks? Book 20 for one and the end of the case files (maybe) and the beginning of the BAT. So at least according to Jim Butcher's original timeline for the series, why would the Reds want to wait until the BAT to start their war?
Well, I wouldn’t draw that conclusion from the 20 years thing - we’re at book 16, with a few more books till the BAT. I think the point of delaying was to build up enough forces/ forge deeper alliances that the White Council wouldn’t stand a chance in a war with the Ramps.
3) Nicodemus refers to his "schedule". This links with the whole BAT thing. I suspect he knew that the Shroud wasn't the "real" Shroud but he knew it had enough juice to do what he wanted.
Still don’t believe the link with the BAT here - I took Nic’s schedule to mean about the plague he was releasing & the things he needed to do to prolong it/ make it more effective. Yeah I’d wager he knew it was the fake Shroud too.
4) Mordite is first introduced. This is not an accident.
Yes. This is the first confirmation of the Outside.
5) Lord Raith is scared of Ortega. At full power I cannot imagine that Ortega would have been able to take a fully powered up Lord Raith. But I can understand why Lord Raith was afraid of Ortega in his weakened state. But I also wonder if this was more to do with who Ortega represented, Ariana for one, but perhaps the Circle? It seems likely that she was a part of it.
While Ortega was no doubt a formidable warrior, I agree that Raith Sr at his prime would’ve won handily - I think the point is that Ortega was a very dangerous man: he was the Ramp’s black ops guy - intelligent, brutal, ruthless & had the wealth/ manpower to accomplish his goals. Look at what he did at Archangel - that type of thing is probably was scared Raith most.
6) The connection between Maggie, Justin, Lord Raith, Ariana, Ortega and Nicodemus is hinted at over the books. And oddly enough but more subtly, Ebenezar.
I have a theory that they were the Black Council of their day - Eb was invited to join but didn’t
7) Denarians are definitely stronger in this book. Specifically they all use more anti-magic via their Fallen.
I think they were scarier because Harry didn’t know as much about them. It also seems like by SmF, a lot of the older coin-holders had died off, leaving newbies in their place - IIRC, Tessa, Rosanna, Nic, Deedee & Namshiel (dead by end of book) were the only ones left who’d likely had their Coins for centuries.
But I agree somewhat - Michaels says the KotC like to outnumber the Denarians 2 or 3:1 when they can help it, but by SmF they do pretty well individually.
8 ) Some odd continuity errors. Harry doesn't have his bracelet during the Duel with Ortega and he doesn't have it during the fight immediately afterwards. He even specifically notes that it is harder to create a shield without one, and then se in the following paragraph when the shield fails he says his bracelet began to burn his wrist. Obviously the Churchmice-Marcone buyer plot point is retconned in Skin Games. And Sanya claims that Michael's armor will not stop bullets - yet we know that Charity put ceramic and kevlar in. And of course the eye color change. Initially the Fallen's eyes are orange, and the host has green. But then it reverses mid book, in the same scene! Forever after the Fallen have green eyes. And by Small Favor the glyph/symbol of the Fallen no longer appears on the forehead of the vessel.
Agreed on most of these, except about Sanya not knowing that Michael had upgraded his armor - neither did Harry till he found out/ questioned Michael. This says some interesting things about Michael & his trust/ secrecy
9) Denarians release a contagion - a cocktail of every virus known to man and probably a few more that are unknown. However when reading this again I immediately thought of another thing: the contagion of the spirit spreading around the world. Nemesis.
Except that Nemesis is not like a virus that can multiply infinitely - it can only likely occupy a set number of beings at one time. I don’t think of Nemesis as a contagion in the plague sense of the word
10) In this book we learn that the forces of Hell get a power boost from destruction and mayhem. The plague will create an environment that makes them more powerful. We also learn later on that the Black Court of Vampires also gain power this way - see the WOJ on how the Black Court level up. Finally, a recent WOJ in response to a fan question about the Spanish Flu also implied that it was not merely a bad contagion, but was essentially a bio-weapon attack. My theory is that perhaps there is a link between the forces of Hell and the Black Court, perhaps they even work together. But more on that in another thread.
Hmm I think it’s a matter of degrees. In BR when Harry talks about this, he’s talking about the dark energy corrupting the neighborhood occupied by Mavra. Even Dracula only controlled a state within Romania at his peak (historically anyway). I’d imagine for the Nickelheads to get a power boost, they’d need something on the scale of the Spanish Flu (after all, they are responsible for the Black Death). I dunno about Hell & the BCV working together - I’m pretty sure the BCV has some sort of connection to the Outside. If this were true, I’d also expect to see the Nickelheads working in tandem with the BCV from time to time.
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Point 1.
The point of the delay was to be at a place where they could decapitate the Council and end it quickly. Thus his 20 year timeline. The Reds weren't ready for the fight they got, and Ortega was prescient. And the Council was decimated.(modern use)
Point 2.
Death Masks is published in 2003. As of Skin Game we are at about 12 year in the Dresden Era. And time is compressing. Peace Talks happens around 6 months or so after Skin Game. He has 5 books to go. I don't think it will make it to 20. Murphy calls the tune for the end game earlier when she paraphrases Yeats.
Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.
Which might be a pretty good summary of the end. Maeve describes herself as a hunting Falcon in Cold Days. When Harry kills of the Reds he enables the return of the Formor and creates a power vacuum that releases anarchy as evidenced by expectations of what happens in Peace Talks. And those last two lines could pretty much describe the Council and it's enemies.
Your Point 6.
I think Maggie was selling Starborn children. Randomly running across Malcolm while she is on the run from Raith and others, and producing a Starborn with him beggars belief. Quoting Bogey in Casa Blanca. Of all the gin joints in all the towns in all the world, she walks into mine(and meets Malcolm and lives happily ever after)
Right. And you left out Lea. Maggie may have helped found the Circle or it may have been in place since Merlin's time, or shortly thereafter. But she was almost certainly a fellow traveler.
Well those ramblings are all I got.
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Harry references the Yeats poem at the end of Storm Front. I remember Murphy referencing later, but can't recall which book. There are a lot of "things are getting worse" moments in the early books. These explicit references seem to taper off. I don't know why, but it might be that as Jim developed as a writer, he learned to be more subtle with his foreshadowing.
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Harry references the Yeats poem ... it might be that as Jim developed as a writer, he learned to be more subtle with his foreshadowing.
Or maybe the beta's just told him he was overdoing it, pointing to past instances...
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Harry references the Yeats poem at the end of Storm Front. I remember Murphy referencing later, but can't recall which book. There are a lot of "things are getting worse" moments in the early books. These explicit references seem to taper off. I don't know why, but it might be that as Jim developed as a writer, he learned to be more subtle with his foreshadowing.
Small Favor.I flexed the fingers of my still-scarred left hand and my mildly tingling right hand. “I’m more worried about all the things I’ll never be rid of.” I eyed her. “What brings on this cheerful topic?”
She gave me a faint smile. “It’s just…the center cannot hold, Harry. I think things are starting to fall apart. I can’t see it, and I can’t prove it, but I know it.” She shook her head. “Maybe I’m just losing my mind.”
I looked intently at her, frowning. “No, Murph. You aren’t.”
“There are bad things happening,” she said.
“Yeah. And I haven’t been able to put many pieces together. Yet. But we shut down some of the bad guys last night. They were using the Denarians to get to the Archive.”
“What do they want?”
“Don’t know,” I said. “But it’s going to be big and bad.”
“I want in on this fight, Harry,” she said.
“Okay.”
“All the way. Promise me.”
“Done.” I offered her my hand.
She took it.
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Their entire M.O. is degrading all the status quo power nations to create a vacuum.
SK - But that doesn't answer why the need to do it slowly. Why not do it quickly and efficiently? Just because they wish to destabilize the current world order does not mean they want to do it slowly. Where is the link? If you want to create a power vacuum remove a power suddenly with no easy replacement overnight and watch the fireworks. E.g. Harry's annihilation of the Red Court and the after effects in South America.
Kindler - the minutes to midnight schedule has been hinted at a lot. I understand that the Red Court wanted more time to build there forces, but the fact remains that they needed to wipe out the White Council in order to further their grand strategy - they could have waited 100 years if they wanted to, or done it some time in the past when the Council was weaker. Why now? What happens in the next few years that meant they felt compelled to attack the White Council (even if they were being manipulated by other forces)?
Are we going to see more of Nicodemus or Mavra?
Nicodemus will show up on schedule, which you can figure out if you stop to look at things, I think. Mavra’s not done yet either, but she eventually probably will be, and I’ll leave it at that.
stilleto929: There have been 3 times that Nicodemus has told Dresden that time is running out. In Death Masks, after capturing Harry, Nicodemus says, “Your history indicates that you are too dangerous to leave alive, I’m afraid – and I am on a schedule.” Then in Small Favor, in the aquarium, Nicodemus says, “…tempus fugit. For all of us.” Then again in Small Favor, in the boat, Nicodemus says, “Dresden, I truly regret this necessity, but time is growing short. I must act…” WHY would an effectively-immortal person be so worried about time?!? The first instance can be explained by having a plane to catch, but the others seem…unusual. Is Nicodemus’s concern about time significant? I.e. showing to the reader that he believes something BIG will happen soon, and he has to be ready? Or is this just a conversational ploy to move the plot along? Would appreciate any info you could give us about this issue. Thanks in advance! – Stiletto (Celia)
Jim: The clock is ticking, and the clued people know it. /Especially/ to someone a couple of thousand years old, it really feels like we’ve already hit the two minute warning.
I think there is another one about Mab as well. Basically even though Dresden doesn't know, something long in the making is about to kick off and I think it is quite plausible that many of the supernatural powers such as the Red Court and the Denarians have ideas about what they want to do about that moment when it comes.
I agree that Ortega was scary to many supernaturals in the same way the Hellhound is or Marcone - ruthless, committed and efficient individuals who just do what needs to be done without ego. But if Ortega didn't know Raith was weakened (which I doubt he or most others did) then he surely would have been at least wary and perhaps even afraid of Raith - surely he too would have known the stories Thomas had heard. Otherwise the fear of Ortega must also come from somewhere else, either Arianna or whoever she represented.
Yes I do wonder if Maggie + Co where the founding members of the Black Council...perhaps even current leaders of it (excluding Maggie). And perhaps Lea too...although she is a wild card.
I get what you're saying about Nemesis, but I do think the connection in words is at least somewhat interesting. Hmm. Nemesis may likely be limited, but I do wonder about its origins in the game.
So yes, the Black Court in that scene where Harry takes on Mavra with Murphy and Kincaid is somewhat what I am talking about. But that is more their effect on the environment, not so much about what makes BCV stronger. There is a WOJ about how BCV level up by farming XP during wars and plagues. This seems very similar to how Denarians are stronger in dark times, even if the methods and type of strength is different.
Interesting you mention the Spanish Flu...I think there was a relatively recent WOJ answering a question about whether the Spanish Flu was either a cover story or a side-effect of the Necromancy used by Kemmler, to which he didn't exactly answer but he did think the questioner was very clever and liked them but was tight lipped about it beyond that.
I think there is some link between the Spanish Flu and Kemmler, and considering he was both involved with both the Vampires and Demons and quite possibly Fallen, I would guess the main link is between him and the Vampires myself. Whether it was intended as a power boost or was a side-effect or something else entirely (like a cover up in the history books) remains to be seen.
It's strange but I am not so sure that Hell and the Outsiders are completely at odds, they almost seem to work in different spheres. But it is more than likely some Denarians are working with Outsiders (possibly directly) and some might be aiding them indirectly.
Morris - are you saying that the series has only occurred over 12 years (in-universe) and that it won't get to 20 years by the end of the case files? You could well be correct, although you haven't factored in any Time-shift shenanigans at the very least from Mirror-Mirror I think. Still though, something quite likely will happen at the end of the case files that catapults everything into the Capstone Trilogy surely. Maybe that's when the first apocalypse happens. Jim has mentioned there will be a few at least.
Selling Starborn children? Are we sure they are so common? I think she knew how to create one, and it was her job perhaps to sire one, but she panicked at the last second for some reason. We know very little of her life, but one thing we do know is she was cunning and passionate and vengeful and planned ahead. She laid that curse on Raith as revenge, she laid that spell on Thomas and Harry just for when they met, and I don't doubt for a second that she planned very specifically that Harry would be a Starborn. Perhaps that was why Raith was so desperate to kill her. He certainly didn't use the most efficient method to murder her.
Also tip of the hat for clarifying the modern use of decimate. Seems hardly anyone uses it correctly to the point where it has come to mean something far harsher than the original word.
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Morris - are you saying that the series has only occurred over 12 years (in-universe) and that it won't get to 20 years by the end of the case files?
Give or take some. Jim had been writing text separated by about a year, following the real world. The slippage started at Cold Days and his hiatus aggravated it. Skin Days ended in the spring and Peace Talks is mid summer of the same year I believe. As he moves forward on a 2 year schedule for the Files his pop culture references will get stale, for example Frozen references in the Christmas Story. He can't reference Baby Yoda and that has to hurt. :o 8)
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... Morris - are you saying that the series has only occurred over 12 years (in-universe) ...
14 Years from Storm Front to the last book.
https://www.jim-butcher.com/timeline
No guarantees as to the future, of course! Storm Front and Fool Moon (and graphic novel Ghoul Goblin) seem to have happened in a single year, for example; and years 9 & 13 seem to have had no novels...
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Close enough for government work.
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@Morris: Thanks. Somewhat ironically, I'm reading through it now, but haven't gotten that far yet.
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De nada. :)