ParanetOnline
The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Vodyanoy on August 22, 2019, 01:34:00 PM
-
So, we know that Michael is a descendent of Charlemagne, Sanya of Saladin and Shiro was a descendant of the last king of Okinawa (IIRC?)
The short story detailing his first job against the Baku made it sound like he was into it for the long haul. That makes me wonder, who is he a descendant of?
I’m guessing it would be Solomon?
(Apologies if this has already been covered before!)
-
Solomon's a possibility. Ditto David. Lots of monarchs in Israelite history.
I'm not sure what Butters's ethnicity is, though. He may not be ethnically Jewish, but descended from converts. For example, he may be descended from Khazar, a Turkish nomadic society (well, not completely nomadic, but close enough for this discussion) that converted en masse to Judaism by decree of King... Bulin? Bulen? Bulon? Anyway, not sure, but the monarch said "We're converting," and (I think something like 1,200-1,300 years ago) they did.
Anywho, without knowing more about his background other than "Jewish," it's hard to really pin down. Fun fact: "Waldo" comes from the German word "wald," which means "rule" (as in "monarch"). If his family observed a tradition among Jewish families—naming children after deceased (Ashkenazi) or living (Sephardic) relatives—it's possible his family tree has some German roots.
-
I’d never heard of Khazar society, or the etymological roots of the name Waldo. Thank you, I’ve learned something new today and it’s only 7 am!
The origins of his name make me wonder more about this. Now, whether it’s by design or just coincidence, I guess we won’t know until later.
-
Honestly, my biggest issue with the "must be descended from a Monarch" rule is that there are a LOT of people distantly descended from ancient monarchs. Charlemagne was kickin' it from the 750s-810s, and had a whopping TWENTY children. Average length of a generation is about 30 years. So we'll call it 40 generations. That's a lot of people. Even if you're only counting male heirs—even if half of each generation dies without bearing children—you're talking about hundreds or thousands (or hundreds of thousands) of people (remember, they're Catholic) who are "descended" from royalty. Let's even say that the Black Plague reset the family tree all the way back to one heir; you're still talking about tons of people. And in checking my math, I found this Wiki article about it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_descent
They even list Charlemagne as an example. The further back in time you count, the greater your chance of being descended from a monarch (and, incidentally, if Michael's descended from Charlemagne, it's entirely possible he's also descended from William the Conqueror more recently, which ties into my whole "Hastings is super important" line of thought).
I'm lucky in that my great grandfather was a genealogist, and his Magnum Opus was tracing my family's history as far back as there were records. My lineage has been traced back to 1066 (which may be why I have such a hard focus on Hastings) to the Doomsday Book. Turns out I'm descended from Barons. Now, my family was staunchly Protestant and fled to America in the 1630s, so you're talking about 1-2 children per generation (and lots of my family tree died as young men in conflicts like the American Revolution (yes, I'm a Son of the Revolution) and the American Civil War), so there aren't very many of us left.
I mean, 16 million people (.5% of the world population) are descended from Genghis Khan, right? Toss one of those a Sword.
Anyway, the point I'm making is that, in reality, it's not all that special. There were lots of monarchs across the world over the past few millennia, and lots of them had lots of kids. One report says that basically every native British person is descended from royalty at some point, if you go far enough back.
-
My [on both my mother and father's sides] lineage has been traced back to 1066. Turns out I'm descended from Barons. Now, my family was staunchly Protestant and fled to America in the 1630s.
Me too, except I'm not sure how many were staunchly Protestant. I know some fled for purely political reasons. It was my great uncle on my mother's side, and he "published" his findings to the family back to when whichever branch landed in America. It was some great aunt on my dad's side, and I know a lot less about that one except "we" came over on the Mayflower. Both my last name and my mother's maiden name didn't exist before 1066 as family names and are actually French, but are recognized as English/Scottish.
-
I hate to be *that* guy, but here are some interesting videos to watch on this subject:
Numberphile episode showing mathematical proof that Every baby is a royal baby and why:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fm0hOex4psA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fm0hOex4psA)
PBS's "It's ok to be Smart" Explaining how we are all related.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnYSMhR3jCI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnYSMhR3jCI)
As it turns out, if you have any European ancestry, you are a direct descendant of Charlemagne. You are also a descendent of every other single person alive in Europe (at least if they had any descendants at all) from the lowest beggar to every King that lived in that timeframe.
-
I hate to be *that* guy, but here are some interesting videos to watch on this subject:
Better you than me. ;)
-
I hate to be *that* guy, but here are some interesting videos to watch on this subject:
Numberphile episode showing mathematical proof that Every baby is a royal baby and why:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fm0hOex4psA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fm0hOex4psA)
PBS's "It's ok to be Smart" Explaining how we are all related.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnYSMhR3jCI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnYSMhR3jCI)
As it turns out, if you have any European ancestry, you are a direct descendant of Charlemagne. You are also a descendent of every other single person alive in Europe (at least if they had any descendants at all) from the lowest beggar to every King that lived in that timeframe.
But most of it includes some bastards, younger children and females who do not inherit most of the time. The question is not who has some of his dna, too many people, but who has some sort of inheritance claim.
https://medium.com/@mattsamberg/the-heirs-of-charlemagne-ec2fde6aeb94
-
I hate to be *that* guy, but here are some interesting videos to watch on this subject:
We're all that guy.
-
Even notwithstanding the fact that everyone is descended from a monarch, who says that the bearers of the Swords have to be descended from monarchs?
-
Even notwithstanding the fact that everyone is descended from a monarch, who says that the bearers of the Swords have to be descended from monarchs?
That was a theory Harry had, because Michael, Sanya and Shiro were.
-
That was a theory Harry had, because Michael, Sanya and Shiro were.
And most importantly they knew they were. There is a story here, a tradition. Maybe even a belief, a sense of responsibility.
Magic in the dresdenverse runs on this kind of thing.
-
And most importantly they knew they were. There is a story here, a tradition. Maybe even a belief, a sense of responsibility.
Magic in the dresdenverse runs on this kind of thing.
But if Molly had to conduct research (and it was implied she'd worked on it for a while) to find out that the Carpenters were descended from Charlemagne, I don't think it fits that Michael knew of his ancestry. Sanya and Shiro did, but it doesn't appear that Michael did. Harry grasped that theory from Michael's comment about Shiro's ancestry, and Sanya's remark about descending from Saladin, then had Molly look into it.
Unless her "research" was limited to, "Hey dad, was your great-great-great-grandcestor a monarch?"
-
But if Molly had to conduct research (and it was implied she'd worked on it for a while) to find out that the Carpenters were descended from Charlemagne, I don't think it fits that Michael knew of his ancestry. Sanya and Shiro did, but it doesn't appear that Michael did. Harry grasped that theory from Michael's comment about Shiro's ancestry, and Sanya's remark about descending from Saladin, then had Molly look into it.
Unless her "research" was limited to, "Hey dad, was your great-great-great-grandcestor a monarch?"
Good research has to start somewhere and that is the logical place to start. I always assumed she just asked.
-
Which story was that? Small Favor? I seem to recall it had taken Molly time to figure it out. That would imply that she didn't just ask Michael. Did Shiro know he was descended from the last king of Okinawa? He probably did as the man would have been either his grandfather or great-grandfather, and I imagine I would know if one of my great-grandfathers had been a king.
-
Good research has to start somewhere and that is the logical place to start. I always assumed she just asked.
Harry had already given her the assignment before the book started, and he asked her something like "How's the homework assignment I gave you going?" and her reply was something like "I'm getting there, but it's taking longer than I thought" (obviously not direct quotes, I don't have the books in front of me at the moment; this is from memory, so please correct me if I'm wrong). It wasn't just a conversation, or it would've been resolved more plainly, I think. I assumed she had to do what my family did, which is check baptismal/christening/confirmation records way way back.
-
I'd imagine the easiest way to trace one's ancestry to Charlemagne would be to trace one's ancestry to a known decedent (which would still involve what Kindler's family, and my great-uncle did (he also used tomb stones)). I'd also imagine that a lot of that would result in Molly stopping at some other king, though I don't know enough about any dynasty to say whether or not a lot of kings descended from Charlemagne. I would imagine that it would be pretty rare to be descended from an ancient king's line that didn't have any other kings in it, but, once again, such things are way beyond my competency.
Molly's research could have been digging through family documents or records that someone else had already gathered.
-
Butters doesn't seem to know or care about any connection between his ancestry and his status as a Knight. The one time he does bring it up is as an admittedly tongue-in-cheek reference to "Return of the Jedi" at the beginning of "Day One." ("I am a Jedi Knight, like my father before me.")
-
I believe that there is no modern certainty of relationship to the ancient Hebraic/Isrealite kings; there can't be, because of huge swaths of time without records.
It's a pop-culture thing, not something a serious genealogist would credit.
OTOH, the Dresdenverse is fueled by pop culture, so...
-
I believe that there is no modern certainty of relationship to the ancient Hebraic/Isrealite kings; there can't be, because of huge swaths of time without records.
It's a pop-culture thing, not something a serious genealogist would credit.
OTOH, the Dresdenverse is fueled by pop culture, so...
Ask any Jew, the messiah has not come yet so there must be some valid candidates left. Butters might be one.
-
I’d never heard of Khazar society, or the etymological roots of the name Waldo. Thank you, I’ve learned something new today and it’s only 7 am!
The origins of his name make me wonder more about this. Now, whether it’s by design or just coincidence, I guess we won’t know until later.
I thought 'wald' meant forest. As in schwartzwald = black forest.
-
I thought 'wald' meant forest. As in schwartzwald = black forest.
It's eminently possible that Waldo comes from a different word, and google supports it at least; of course English has 'wield' which is similar.
The German wald for forest is a different derivation.
-
Honestly, I don't know any man called Waldo in Germany. But that doesn't mean, there aren't any.
Maybe the name is a version of Walter. The first part of that name comes from Old High German 'waltan' which means 'to rule'.
Walter or Walther would mean 'leader of the army'
I just found an old book about names and their origins from 1973. Waldo is listed as a short form or nickname for 'Waldemar' for example.