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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Wannabe Wizard on November 06, 2018, 08:43:13 PM
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Long time since I logged on to the forum, just been lurking & reading theories & posts while looking for updates on the next book(s)... ;D
Have always wondered if all the RC Vampires had been truly destroyed & suspected that the Eebs, if not tortured & killed already by the Erlking & his goblins, might still be alive.
Just started a reread of the series & noticed a comment from Harry in Storm Front as he enters Macs bar after his fight with the scorpion.
After stating that the protections there are an ‘umbrella’ not a ‘bomb shelter’:
“I couldn’t get away from what Victor would do to me, unless I cared to flee to the Nevernever itself...”
So certainly Harry believes being in the Nn would protect him from this spell. Couple this with Vadderung (in Changes) telling Harry that the RC bloodline curse is the same spell/curse as used by Victor Sells it would imply the Eebs are protected. (Yes assuming Harry was correct and that the extra power in the RC ritual was not sufficient to cross in the NN..)
So have there being any previous posts/discussions/WOJ on this?
Does anyone else think we may see the Eebs again?
(I’d love a short story of them trying to restart the RC & get revenge on Harry only to find themselves now up against a ‘trained’ Winter Knight..)
Saying that, have there been any posts or polls on short stories people would love to see & from which characters perspective???
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The spell in Changes was boosted sufficiently to reach into the NN, but there was a WOJ that a few individuals in particularly remote / secured locations of the NN would have escaped. I don't have the source recorded, but it's pretty widely considered a cluebat to the Eebs.
I'd be kind of surprised if they came after Harry for a grudge, though. They already did business more or less along the same lines as the Blampires who have survived and prospered by being smart and cautious rather than particularly vengeance-oriented.
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Yeah pretty much. Assuming they somehow survived the Bloodline Curse, and then Goblin 'Hospitality' (which is admittedly possible)... The Eebs are a couple of two-bit loser cowards.
Whenever Harry came at them in Changes they turned tail and scarpered with their tails between their legs. When Mouse proved he could hold his own vs the Ick they bolted. The attack on Harry's apartment was a drive-by and run affair. When Harry forced them in a duel at the Erlking's Estate they sent their mooks at them despite the initial attack on the FBI catching him off-guard.
They were barely willing to fight non-Winter Knight Harry, with an army of minions and the full backing of the Red King. I doubt you could get them on the same Continent as him now.
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The spell in Changes was boosted sufficiently to reach into the NN, but there was a WOJ that a few individuals in particularly remote / secured locations of the NN would have escaped.
My recollection of the WoJ is that it was more conditional than that. That is, if there were individuals in particularly remote / secured locations of the NN, they could have escaped. And yes, most have assumed that the Eebs are the top candidates for survival if survivors ever show up.
Are there even any other named rampire characters that were not killed "on screen?"
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Yeah pretty much. Assuming they somehow survived the Bloodline Curse, and then Goblin 'Hospitality' (which is admittedly possible)... The Eebs are a couple of two-bit loser cowards.
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They were barely willing to fight non-Winter Knight Harry, with an army of minions and the full backing of the Red King. I doubt you could get them on the same Continent as him now.
Right, but that isn't the same as not being dangerous. The danger they pose just won't take the form of coming at Harry in a straight line and promptly getting their asses kicked.
They're perfectly capable of putting a price on Harry's head for contractors in the same general league as Kincaid or Goodman Grey from a continent away, for example.
Being smart and cautious where their own safety is concerned, though, I'd expect them to just wait for time to take care of Harry for them. At the end of the day, they're immortal and he isn't.
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They are also clearly described as "not being of the blood". I always interpreted that as not sharing the bloodline of the Red King. The bloodline curse was not described as a curse that killed all red court vampires. It was a curse that killed all blood relations of Susan -- the brand new red court vamp. That ended up killing a lot of red court vamps because they were related by blood to Susan. If there are Red Court Vampires that do not share a blood link with Susan, then they would not have been harmed by the curse.
That implies pretty strongly that the Ebs were NOT killed by the bloodline curse, although spending a few centuries being tortured by goblins is nto what I would call an "upside".
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They are also clearly described as "not being of the blood". I always interpreted that as not sharing the bloodline of the Red King. The bloodline curse was not described as a curse that killed all red court vampires. It was a curse that killed all blood relations of Susan -- the brand new red court vamp. That ended up killing a lot of red court vamps because they were related by blood to Susan. If there are Red Court Vampires that do not share a blood link with Susan, then they would not have been harmed by the curse.
That implies pretty strongly that the Ebs were NOT killed by the bloodline curse, although spending a few centuries being tortured by goblins is nto what I would call an "upside".
All the Red Court are blood relations in that the vampire curse comes through the blood. What the Eebs were referring to is that they are not ethnic Mayans and thus not eligible to join the upper ranks of Red Court nobility, the Lords of Outer Night.
However, it has been strongly hinted that being in the Nevernever when the curse went off would have insulated them. So they could yet turn up. There are probably a relative handful of Red Court vamps left in the world who were in places the curse couldn't reach, but the Red Court as a power is gone.
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They are also clearly described as "not being of the blood". I always interpreted that as not sharing the bloodline of the Red King. The bloodline curse was not described as a curse that killed all red court vampires. It was a curse that killed all blood relations of Susan -- the brand new red court vamp. That ended up killing a lot of red court vamps because they were related by blood to Susan. If there are Red Court Vampires that do not share a blood link with Susan, then they would not have been harmed by the curse.
That implies pretty strongly that the Ebs were NOT killed by the bloodline curse, although spending a few centuries being tortured by goblins is nto what I would call an "upside".
It's important to remember that unlike the Blacks, very few of the Red Court could actually Breed and create more Rampires.
Susan's 'family line' (for lack of a better term) goes Susan->Bianca->Ortega->Ariana->Red King- and the Curse goes sideways as well as up.
End result? There are few, if any Ramps that are further down the Family Tree then the 5th Generation (because only the tippity top can make more), and possibly none at all that aren't from the line of the Red King.
So even if we assume it goes along the 'bloodline', it would still hit 99% of the Rampire population, because they decided to work a Pyramid scheme.
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All the Red Court are blood relations in that the vampire curse comes through the blood. What the Eebs were referring to is that they are not ethnic Mayans and thus not eligible to join the upper ranks of Red Court nobility, the Lords of Outer Night.
I agree that the vampire curse travels through the blood. But that does not mean that all red court vampires are descended from the Red King. Perhaps there were more than one progenitor. Or perhaps there was once a single progenitor, but it was not the Red King. The bloodline curse has a very specific method of identifying blood links. It is children, siblings or parents of anyone targeted. If my parents are dead, it does not sound like it would jump automatically to grandparents. There are logical possibilities that would leave some red court vamps as not viable targets.
All I am saying is that the author made a bid deal of saying the Ebs were "Not of the Blood". The author does not put such details into a story unless it has a purpose. The only purpose that is obvious to me is that "not of the blood" means not subject to the bloodline curse.
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It is children, siblings or parents of anyone targeted. If my parents are dead, it does not sound like it would jump automatically to grandparents.
It did jump Bianca, Ortega, and Ariana to get the Red King.
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We have three types of vamps in the books that we've seen. Red, White and Black. Whites breed normally. Blacks kill to create. The Reds seem to fall somewhere in between. JB seems to treat it like a virus, when you get bitten but not killed you're either turned or end up like Susan. Is my understanding faulty?
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It did jump Bianca, Ortega, and Ariana to get the Red King.
Not to mention the whole point the Red's were using the Bloodline Curse was that the curse was gonna jump straight from Harry to Eb.
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@morriswalters: They do feed repeatedly on people. Justine had puncture marks from being fed on when she was crazy in Bianca's basement with Harry. I've always assumed them to be bite marks.
The mechanics of how the Reds turn people has always been vague. From Grave Peril:
"I think they're turning some of them," Thomas said. "Bianca has the authority to allow it, now."
So I'm not sure if this is correct: It's important to remember that unlike the Blacks, very few of the Red Court could actually Breed and create more Rampires.
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It's important to remember that unlike the Blacks, very few of the Red Court could actually Breed and create more Rampires.
I don't know if it was ever really established whether only the nobles being allowed to turn new rampires was a biological limit, or a political one. Were they purposely limiting their population to keep the King's power from being spread between too many descendants, or was it a matter like the blamps where newbies trying to turn more vamps would result in mindlessly feral progeny?
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@morriswalters: They do feed repeatedly on people. Justine had puncture marks from being fed on when she was crazy in Bianca's basement with Harry. I've always assumed them to be bite marks.
So did Harry. So a nibble isn't sufficient. And while reading this, I found a crossover with another thread. Harry dies and creates a ghost of himself, So Vadderung should have said that Harry came back from death twice. :)
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So did Harry. So a nibble isn't sufficient. And while reading this, I found a crossover with another thread. Harry dies and creates a ghost of himself, So Vadderung should have said that Harry came back from death twice. :)
No, a nibble isn't enough, Thomas when he was a hair dresser fed on his clients, just a wee snack they loved it and they both survived.. Lord Raith liked to push that first feeding on his kids, because
they get excited and lose control and feed until the victim is dead, then they have no choice than to be a WCV
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So did Harry. So a nibble isn't sufficient. And while reading this, I found a crossover with another thread. Harry dies and creates a ghost of himself, So Vadderung should have said that Harry came back from death twice. :)
It may have been three times. After he burns everybody at the party, Michael is doing chest compressions on him. I've always thought that spell may have been a death curse, and Michael brought him back.
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@morriswalters: They do feed repeatedly on people. Justine had puncture marks from being fed on when she was crazy in Bianca's basement with Harry. I've always assumed them to be bite marks.
Also, what benefit is there in a narcotic saliva if you kill your victims right off? Sure it makes them less resistant, but it also makes them more susceptible to future feedings if you can get them hooked.
Also, what Ortega said about the local village. They spread it around to maintain the herd population. So it's not a death sentence, if they can do that.
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It may have been three times. After he burns everybody at the party, Michael is doing chest compressions on him. I've always thought that spell may have been a death curse, and Michael brought him back.
I don't think chest compressions would be enough to bring someone back from having thrown their death curse. Death curses aren't a case of causing yourself a heart attack, so much as the stopped heart is a symptom of having chosen to die by using your life as fuel for a weapon. And Heaven has pretty firm views about mortals having to play out the consequences of 'fair ball' choices. To have used Michael as the instrument to ctrl-z Harry throwing a death curse there, someone on the other side would have had to have cheated to force him into doing it in the first place. Which, I mean, isn't impossible given Cowl's comment there were even more things going on at Bianca's that Harry doesn't see yet. But there hasn't been even a hint of Fallen involvement there so far.
I think that was more a case of Harry pushing 99% of the way to the fatal fatigue threshold without actually choosing to spend his death curse.
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@ peregrine: I was trying to find something that was more specific than just feed to forestall the argument that feeding doesn't necessarily mean biting.
@ Snark Knight: There is a reason I was equivocal with all the may have's.
The reason I've always thought that it was more than just a spell is that the fire behaves weirdly, and it stops Harry's heart. Then Michael beseeches the Lord on Harry's behalf. Michael says "[Harry] deserves better than to die here, Lord!" Then a little later Harry as narrator says "[a]nd then my heart lurched and began to beat again," which could just be a case of CPR standing for "Clean, Pretty, Reliable."
There is a lot of rules inconsistency in the earlier books. This whole scene may be operating under slightly different rules than later in the series, and that explains the oddness of it. Or there is something more going on.
Furthermore, an otherwise healthy wizard might be able to throw a death curse and have a doctor on standby to get them going again. We don't know and neither do wizards. Luccio thought her wound was fatal, but a doctor who doesn't actually practice medicine, let alone trauma surgery in the field, was able to keep her from dying.
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Furthermore, an otherwise healthy wizard might be able to throw a death curse and have a doctor on standby to get them going again. We don't know and neither do wizards.
Given that death curses are used as a wizard is about to be murdered it's unsurprising that no one knows. ;) The idea that a wizard could throw one without meaning to is interesting.
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Given that death curses are used as a wizard is about to be murdered it's unsurprising that no one knows. ;) The idea that a wizard could throw one without meaning to is interesting.
Possible, if the wizard was actually dying at the time and was more importantly convinced he or she
was.. Then if medical aid came in time, survived... However would the spell lose it's potency? Or would the wizard become less powerful because they put all their last force into it?
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Mention of these two in this thread reminded me of the most chilling words ever uttered in DF. During the book they appear in.
"Few Winter Knights have had swords as swift as your tongue, boy. But I warn thee: name your Lady a third time and you will not like what follows." -The Erlking
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Sounds like foreshadowing to something Harry might do later.
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I suspect the Erlking is giving them the Lloyd Slate treatment or equivalent , and while they make an appearance it won’t be that big. It would probably be more symbolic.