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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: groinkick on June 22, 2018, 04:26:57 AM
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Who do you think will end up with his daughter's Coin? I think an interesting, and bad ass choice could be Lara Raith. She'd be pretty scary combining her powers with the power of that Coin.
Of course Nic may try to replace his daughter by finding a young, innocent woman to manipulate.
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Lara just got out of being dominated by her father. I have a hard time seeing her risking getting dominated, however subtly by a coin.
Part of it depends on how connected he is to the coin just because it was his daughter's coin. He might have some kind of sentimental attachment to it if he treasures it as a memento/a connection to his daughter. Or he may think it's just another soldier in his war and it would go to whichever host provides the most benefit.
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He would give it to Maggie to turn her into his replacement
goldfish daughter. (I mean, he'd probably like to anyway, if he could get past Mouse and Harry.)
Realistically speaking though I expect that after his trip to Hades Nicky has doubled down on his 'everything for the cause' and 'nothing matters to me but the mission' mentality, so he's probably going to put the coin into circulation asap- it's just to big of an asset to leave off board so late in the game.
Which means handing it to whomever he finds with the right mentality and talents to be a soldier for him.
And while I have no doubt he'd love to snatch up Lara (and by proxy the White Court) Peregrine is right. Lara works for Lara.
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Lara just got out of being dominated by her father. I have a hard time seeing her risking getting dominated, however subtly by a coin.
Part of it depends on how connected he is to the coin just because it was his daughter's coin. He might have some kind of sentimental attachment to it if he treasures it as a memento/a connection to his daughter. Or he may think it's just another soldier in his war and it would go to whichever host provides the most benefit.
I agree she wouldn't want it... For me it's more about her feeling cornered. Secret is out, the other White Court houses are turning on the Raith's, and she needs help. Nicodemus is only to happy to help. Of course with her and Thomas fighting in the Oblivion war it lowers any chance of this happening.
He would give it to Maggie to turn her into his replacement goldfish daughter.
I mean, he'd probably like to anyway, if he could get past Mouse and Harry.
I'm sure he'd love to. But with Jim doing the spin off series with Maggie I don't see her actually becoming a Denarian.
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I agree she wouldn't want it... For me it's more about her feeling cornered. Secret is out, the other White Court houses are turning on the Raith's, and she needs help.
I doubt it. The other houses' leadership are dead after WN.
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Who do you think will end up with his daughter's Coin? I think an interesting, and bad ass choice could be Lara Raith. She'd be pretty scary combining her powers with the power of that Coin.
Of course Nic may try to replace his daughter by finding a young, innocent woman to manipulate.
I am not worried about Lara wraith so much I am worried about Papa Wraith.
If one of those coins fall into old Papa Wraith...
If the fallen can help papa Wraith regain his sealed powers...
An ancient white vampire + full magic immunity + fallen angel powers is a very scary combination. In fact, it look like a perfect wizard slayer to me.
It is also something easily accomplished. I mean, for Nick finding out that papa wraith is just a puppet will be simple. He is the master of shadows after all. I even suspect Nick already knows. Sneaking a coin pass all of Lara's security will be a bit difficult, but it is something Nick can do easily enough.
The only problem that I can see if weather or not Papa wraith is still together enough to become a true Denarian. If his psyche is too damage, maybe he can only become a low level coin holder Like Magock or Rasmussen.
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I think Lara's demon would not like the competition.
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I think Lara's demon would not like the competition.
I do not think that a whampire's demon is that kind of an entity.
As far as I understand it, the whampire's demon is just hunger with very low intelligence, ego or ambition. As long as you keep it fed, the demon won't be bothered with anything else.
If a whampire get hold of a coin, the fallen will be able to manage such a simpleton of a demon easily. In fact, I suspect it will be a lot easier for the fallen in the coin to manipulate and control a whampire compare to a vanilla, because a whampire has an obvious weakness. If the fallen offer the demon food, the fallen will almost guaranteed a foothold over the whampire host.
If Thomas touched a coin for example, I think it will be at least 10 times harder for him to block the influence. I mean, the demon is half of his soul. If the fallen promise the demon food which the demon virtually will agrees, technically the fallen already owned half of Thomas's soul in one shot.
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If Thomas touched a coin for example, I think it will be at least 10 times harder for him to block the influence. I mean, the demon is half of his soul. If the fallen promise the demon food which the demon virtually will agrees, technically the fallen already owned half of Thomas's soul in one shot.
Uriel and Michael would both disagree, as per their comments and disposition toward Harry during his time with Lasciel and the denouement of Ghost Story.
I am not worried about Lara wraith so much I am worried about Papa Wraith.
If one of those coins fall into old Papa Wraith...
If the fallen can help papa Wraith regain his sealed powers...
An ancient white vampire + full magic immunity + fallen angel powers is a very scary combination. In fact, it look like a perfect wizard slayer to me.
Interesting thought, but from what I understand, the current consensus is Papa Raith gets his immunity to enemy magic from HWWB. Deirdre's Denarian was on Team Nic, and wouldn't cooperate with the Walker. Opposing agenda.
I doubt it. The other houses' leadership are dead after WN.
From where we last saw her, Lara isn't in a great position. She could be persuaded to take more power.
Yes, the WN Deeps Battle devastated (not decimated) her opposition in the White Court, and let House Raith effectively take control. I imagine it will take the other houses decades or centuries to become contenders again. However, her House was wounded as well, and with Papa Raith (please make that a pizza joint) on a leash, the other houses were still somewhat beholden to her bidding. Their losses count as her losses in any conflict where the White Court would stand unified.
Also, remember Shagnasty. That Skinwalker waltzed right into Raith manor and made a field day out of ripping her personal guards apart in her very home. News of that demonstrates vulnerability, and news like that spreads. It also must have rattled her.
I don't believe she's been onscreen since Turn Coat (unless short stories - need to catch up on those), so I don't know how well the White Court is handling the Fomor. They mentioned something in Ghost Story with the Whamp at Murphy's but details escape me presently. I think they had their hands full, though.
Given these circumstances, I absolutely think Lara would like a power boost, for either the organization, herself, or both. She wouldn't like being at the mercy of a Fallen, but unlike Papa Raith, I don't see a conflict of interest in such an alliance. She could be persuaded, I think.
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I think Lara's demon would not like the competition.
It can not like it all it wants, I'm pretty sure a true Fallen Angel would stomp the hell out of it if it came down to it.
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It can not like it all it wants, I'm pretty sure a true Fallen Angel would stomp the hell out of it if it came down to it.
If it is allowed to do so, I think not.
There is a recent video where Jim talks about what would happen if a red court vampire tried to take over a white one and the demon would fight it.
But the fallen will not try to take over, it will try to seduce and that is different and the fallen must offer more than the usual package for humans.
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Interesting thought, but from what I understand, the current consensus is Papa Raith gets his immunity to enemy magic from HWWB. Deirdre's Denarian was on Team Nic, and wouldn't cooperate with the Walker. Opposing agenda.
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From where we last saw her, Lara isn't in a great position. She could be persuaded to take more power.
Yes, the WN Deeps Battle devastated (not decimated) her opposition in the White Court, and let House Raith effectively take control. I imagine it will take the other houses decades or centuries to become contenders again. However, her House was wounded as well, and with Papa Raith (please make that a pizza joint) on a leash, the other houses were still somewhat beholden to her bidding. Their losses count as her losses in any conflict where the White Court would stand unified.
Also, remember Shagnasty. That Skinwalker waltzed right into Raith manor and made a field day out of ripping her personal guards apart in her very home. News of that demonstrates vulnerability, and news like that spreads. It also must have rattled her.
The Circle - who are all but confirmed to be Outsider affiliates - was trying to take Lord Raith out in White Night. It's possible that how the shield was set up means the Outsider(s) are stuck sponsoring it no matter who Raith is controlled by, so long as he lives. But I'm not sure the shield means he's necessarily still immune to everything Harry can throw at it anyway. Harry has learned a lot since BR, including getting better at recognizing Outsiders' handiwork, and that he has some sort of edge over them that other wizards don't.I'm thinking it might not be a coincidence that the death curse Margaret was able to tag him with despite his "invulnerability" was cast as she was giving birth to a starborn. Winter's power might be another advantage, given how hard it reacted to the other walker he fought in CD when combined with soulfire.
As for Lara' position, it's also relevant that Thomas mentioned in CD that the expansion in her power base has been getting scarily significant lately. I doubt she'd be hard pressed to keep Skavis and Malvora in line if she had to now; it's just that under white court culture she just prefers manipulation even after growing beyond absolutely needing it. Plus, there are probably other ambitious members of her own family that would decline to exactly fall into line.
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Uriel and Michael would both disagree, as per their comments and disposition toward Harry during his time with Lasciel and the denouement of Ghost Story.
Interesting thought, but from what I understand, the current consensus is Papa Raith gets his immunity to enemy magic from HWWB. Deirdre's Denarian was on Team Nic, and wouldn't cooperate with the Walker. Opposing agenda.
From where we last saw her, Lara isn't in a great position. She could be persuaded to take more power.
Yes, the WN Deeps Battle devastated (not decimated) her opposition in the White Court, and let House Raith effectively take control. I imagine it will take the other houses decades or centuries to become contenders again. However, her House was wounded as well, and with Papa Raith (please make that a pizza joint) on a leash, the other houses were still somewhat beholden to her bidding. Their losses count as her losses in any conflict where the White Court would stand unified.
Also, remember Shagnasty. That Skinwalker waltzed right into Raith manor and made a field day out of ripping her personal guards apart in her very home. News of that demonstrates vulnerability, and news like that spreads. It also must have rattled her.
I don't believe she's been onscreen since Turn Coat (unless short stories - need to catch up on those), so I don't know how well the White Court is handling the Fomor. They mentioned something in Ghost Story with the Whamp at Murphy's but details escape me presently. I think they had their hands full, though.
Given these circumstances, I absolutely think Lara would like a power boost, for either the organization, herself, or both. She wouldn't like being at the mercy of a Fallen, but unlike Papa Raith, I don't see a conflict of interest in such an alliance. She could be persuaded, I think.
The forces of Hell and the outsiders are not mutually exclusive, at least not at the individual level.
I mean, we can be reasonably certain that there is a Judas within the ranks of the Denarians. The main suspect is Roassanna for now. This Judas is most probably member of the circle which are very likely to be colluding with outsiders.
In other words, there is already an example of a Denarian cooperating with outsiders. Rosaana and her fallen is already colluding with walkers.
If there is one, there can be two.
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The forces of Hell and the outsiders are not mutually exclusive, at least not at the individual level.
I mean, we can be reasonably certain that there is a Judas within the ranks of the Denarians. The main suspect is Roassanna for now. This Judas is most probably member of the circle which are very likely to be colluding with outsiders.
In other words, there is already an example of a Denarian cooperating with outsiders. Rosaana and her fallen is already colluding with walkers.
If there is one, there can be two.
Denarians are locked in the Coins for the very reason that Lucy doesn't trust them. As Jim said, Lucy's basically having an argument with God, but doesn't want to destroy reality, and in some ways that makes Nicodemus more dangerous.
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How about Cassandra's tears' Lydia from Grave Peril? Now that would be a reasonable choice, she's not completely stable, and a former drug addict and would be easy enough to manipulate. She has a history with Harry, which makes for a very decent spy/assassin.
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Doesn't really fit Nick's MO though.
Harry. Marcone. Ivy. Goodman Grey. These are the kinds of people that Nicodemus likes to recruit- People with Will. Power. Influence. Those that can be a partner to their fallen and not merely a vessel for it. He doesn't want his Denarians to be dumb muscle- that's Tessa's style.
A Emotionally damaged former drug addict not so much.
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Doesn't really fit Nick's MO though.
Harry. Marcone. Ivy. Goodman Grey. These are the kinds of people that Nicodemus likes to recruit-
P eople with Will. Power. Influence. Those that can be a partner to their fallen and not merely a vessel for it. He doesn't want his Denarians to be dumb muscle- that's Tessa's style.
A Emotionally damaged former drug addict not so much.
That's the old Nicodemous. The current Nicodemous may have some issues.
With Dierdra gone, Nick has lost his right hand. His credibility is now ruined after he betrayed Mab and Marcone probably offering a bounty for him.
Under such pressure Nick may have to lower his recruitment standards a bit.
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How is this for revenge, he figures out a way to trick Murphy into taking it.. Depending on how her recovery is going she could be vulnerable now.. He managed to sucker Harry into picking Lasciel's coin, he might pull it off with Murphy..
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How is this for revenge, he figures out a way to trick Murphy into taking it.. Depending on how her recovery is going she could be vulnerable now.. He managed to sucker Harry into picking Lasciel's coin, he might pull it off with Murphy..
Totally unrealistic if you know anything about Karen, she would reject the coin. She has enough knowledge, understanding and spiritual strength to do so.
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Totally unrealistic if you know anything about Karen, she would reject the coin. She has enough knowledge, understanding and spiritual strength to do so.
Yeah, suckering someone into touching the coin is only really valuable with a wizard who'd sacrifice their powers if they just rejected it. A vanilla can drop it just like Sanya did, if their will is strong enough.
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I think Karen is vulnerable to one thing, Harry. Her becoming part of Winter is most realistic to me in the sense she might get to be with him. Hand maiden of Molly or something like that.
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I think Karen is vulnerable to one thing, Harry. Her becoming part of Winter is most realistic to me in the sense she might get to be with him. Hand maiden of Molly or something like that.
Yeah, that'd go over real well.
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I think Karen is vulnerable to one thing, Harry. Her becoming part of Winter is most realistic to me in the sense she might get to be with him. Hand maiden of Molly or something like that.
Vulnerable to Harry, perhaps, but she fears Winter more than Harry does, much of the distrust and fear she has felt, perhaps mostly fear stems from that. Perhaps she'd reject the coin, but Nic knows her weaknesses... Consider how he tricked Harry into picking up Lasciel's coin bare handed without thinking to prevent little Harry from doing so. In the end Harry rejected the coin but it took a while and Lasciel did fill a lot needs he had.. So don't be so quick to think that Murphy will reject it out of hand, she is only human after all. Offer her her complete physical strength and speed plus more to help Harry in the fight? She might think if Harry was able to resist the temptations of a full partnership while benefiting, that she might also.. All I am saying is don't underestimate Nic, if there is a way to do it and screw Harry good, he will do it, Murphy would be the perfect pawn is all I am saying.. And who knows that strange dream Harry had in Skin Game of Murphy with Lasciel's coin could have just been a warning, but it might also be foreshadowing to be sprung on us in a later book.
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Yeah, that'd go over real well.
Well other than that I don't see her taking up a Mantle or anything. The only reason she'd do it is for Harry.
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Offer her her complete physical strength and speed plus more to help Harry in the fight? She might think if Harry was able to resist the temptations of a full partnership while benefiting, that she might also.
If she really can't cope with limited mobility in her leg after her injury, there's always that job offer with Monoc from Ms. Gard. That would come with their "great health plan" without enslaving her to a fallen. She's not in as bad a place to be tempted from as if it was coin or nothing.
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Well other than that I don't see her taking up a Mantle or anything. The only reason she'd do it is for Harry.
Murphy becoming Molly's hand maiden for Harry's sake? Not bloody likely.
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Murphy becoming Molly's hand maiden for Harry's sake? Not bloody likely.
Totally agree..
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If she really can't cope with limited mobility in her leg after her injury, there's always that job offer with Monoc from Ms. Gard. That would come with their "great health plan" without enslaving her to a fallen. She's not in as bad a place to be tempted from as if it was coin or nothing.
But that offer was before she was injured... I also doubt that even that job offer came without strings, especially if she because healed as a result.
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But that offer was before she was injured... I also doubt that even that job offer came without strings, especially if she because healed as a result.
Of course it comes with strings. Being a mercenary hired out to whoever Vadderung tells you you're working for, potentially including the likes of Marcone. That's still exponentially better than the Fallen's terms though.
And they're hardly likely to pull the offer over an injury that a valkyrie would heal from in, like, a couple hours.
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Totally unrealistic if you know anything about Karen, she would reject the coin. She has enough knowledge, understanding and spiritual strength to do so.
Everyone has their weaknesses. Harry's was his daughter. Murphy's is her friends, Harry, her city, her family. Corner her, make her desperate, face with the sadistic choice of horrible harm to the above and taking a Coin...there's no way to be sure what a mortal will do in such a situation, it's what Tolkien called a 'trembling moment'.
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Doesn't really fit Nick's MO though.
Harry. Marcone. Ivy. Goodman Grey. These are the kinds of people that Nicodemus likes to recruit- People with Will. Power. Influence. Those that can be a partner to their fallen and not merely a vessel for it. He doesn't want his Denarians to be dumb muscle- that's Tessa's style.
I see two problems with the Nicodemus/Lara scenario, and their names are Nicodemus and Lara. Yeah, he wants capable, self-controlled, effective aides...but Lara with a Coin might be a little too much of a bad thing. Yeah, he was willing to offer a Coin to Harry...but Harry isn't the sort to crave power over others for its own sake. To oversimplify, Harry doesn't particularly want to rule the world, or even Chicago.
Lara is exactly that sort. She'd be an instant rival for control.
The other is that Lara is many things, but stupid isn't one of them. Ultimately, the Coins are losing propositions, even the people who think they are in control are, in the final analysis, possessed by their Coins. I think Lara is probably smart enough to see that.