ParanetOnline
The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: KurtinStGeorge on May 30, 2018, 06:26:22 PM
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I'll start by answering my own question so as to better define it. We learned from Lea in Ghost Story that Mort Lindquist hid his true ability from the Council. Lea said that Mortimer's power level was likely greater than Harry's, though limited to his own field of expertise. Elaine deliberately hide her abilities from Warden Ramirez. Harry knows Cowl is White Council material, he even speculates that Cowl and Kumori hide their identities because they are Council members, but Harry could be wrong. At least one or maybe both Necromancers hide their identities of the more obvious reason that they simply don't want to be recognized at any place or time. Even Necromancers have to go to the supermarket after all. They can't really send a ghost and sending a zombie would require too much effort and defeat the purpose of being incognito.
I wonder if there are a significant number of wizards who are hiding their true abilities. Some of them might be like Cowl and Kumori who chose a dark path and need to hide from the Council, while others might have met a warden when they were younger; say someone like Morgan explaining what happens to a person who breaks the laws of magic, and decided, "These White Council guys are as**oles, I don't want to be any part of their organization."
I find it hard to believe Elaine is alone in her feelings about the White Council. I wouldn't be surprised if not everyone Harry dismisses as the "have nots of magic", the people who hang out at Mac's, are really below White Council standards.
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Are there more wizards like Elaine?
You mean Kumori?
No, I don't really think that. I just wanted all the Elaine = Kumori supporters to enjoy for that half a second.
I'll start by answering my own question so as to better define it. We learned from Lea in Ghost Story that Mort Lindquist hid his true ability from the Council. Lea said that Mortimer's power level was likely greater than Harry's, though limited to his own field of expertise. Elaine deliberately hide her abilities from Warden Ramirez. Harry knows Cowl is White Council material, he even speculates that Cowl and Kumori hide their identities because they are Council members, but Harry could be wrong. At least one or maybe both Necromancers hide their identities of the more obvious reason that they simply don't want to be recognized at any place or time. Even Necromancers have to go to the supermarket after all. They can't really send a ghost and sending a zombie would require too much effort and defeat the purpose of being incognito.
I wonder if there are a significant number of wizards who are hiding their true abilities. Some of them might be like Cowl and Kumori who chose a dark path and need to hide from the Council, while others might have met a warden when they were younger; say someone like Morgan explaining what happens to a person who breaks the laws of magic, and decided, "These White Council guys are as**oles, I don't want to be any part of their organization."
I find it hard to believe Elaine is alone in her feelings about the White Council. I wouldn't be surprised if not everyone Harry dismisses as the "have nots of magic", the people who hang out at Mac's, are really below White Council standards.
I find your proposition sound and acceptable. Unfortunately, its very nature means we won't know who fits the bill unless the narrative specifies.
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Absolutely. For the bulk of the Casefiles the Council has been at War, and made no secret of their intent to draft anyone capable, adults and children alike. Draft-dodging would absolutely be a thing. The only potential catch is that they'd have to get clued in to the wider supernatural world /before/ the Wardens found and tested them, enough to understand the need. That sort of information would not have been too readily available prior to the Paranet.
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But with the Paranet comes the possibility that a young, talented magic user might be swayed for or against the Council depending on who they are interacting with on the Net.
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I'll start by answering my own question so as to better define it. We learned from Lea in Ghost Story that Mort Lindquist hid his true ability from the Council. Lea said that Mortimer's power level was likely greater than Harry's, though limited to his own field of expertise. Elaine deliberately hide her abilities from Warden Ramirez. Harry knows Cowl is White Council material, he even speculates that Cowl and Kumori hide their identities because they are Council members, but Harry could be wrong. At least one or maybe both Necromancers hide their identities of the more obvious reason that they simply don't want to be recognized at any place or time. Even Necromancers have to go to the supermarket after all. They can't really send a ghost and sending a zombie would require too much effort and defeat the purpose of being incognito.
I wonder if there are a significant number of wizards who are hiding their true abilities. Some of them might be like Cowl and Kumori who chose a dark path and need to hide from the Council, while others might have met a warden when they were younger; say someone like Morgan explaining what happens to a person who breaks the laws of magic, and decided, "These White Council guys are as**oles, I don't want to be any part of their organization."
I find it hard to believe Elaine is alone in her feelings about the White Council. I wouldn't be surprised if not everyone Harry dismisses as the "have nots of magic", the people who hang out at Mac's, are really below White Council standards.
There almost certainly are some other Council-level 'wizards' who hide their power and ability from the Council, but there aren't likely to be very many.
Why? For one thing, Council-level potential is rare. There aren't very many people in the world who have even the potential to reach that level to begin with. Of them, the majority probably never get trained to the point where it matters, or else end up blowing themselves up or getting beheaded experimenting on their own.
To become a Council-level talent requires both that raw potential, and training to use it, and it's hard to find the kind of training that will bring you up to Council-level except from Council-level adepts.
Harry and Elaine, for example, if they had been adopted out to normal people and not Justin DuMorne, would likely never have come anywhere close to realizing their potential power. They might or might not have learned to use some magic, but without high-level training they'd probably have remained minor players or worse..
DuMorne, of course, was a rogue Council member.
It's going to be a rare, rare person who can reach Council-level without the proper training, and it's going to be rare for anybody not linked to the Council to be able to provide it.
There are several thousand Council members, IIRC. That sounds like a lot, but that's out of closing in on 8 billion people. I doubt if there are more than, at the most, say a 100 people in the world with Council-level talent and training who are not part of it.
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There almost certainly are some other Council-level 'wizards' who hide their power and ability from the Council, but there aren't likely to be very many.
Why? For one thing, Council-level potential is rare. There aren't very many people in the world who have even the potential to reach that level to begin with. Of them, the majority probably never get trained to the point where it matters, or else end up blowing themselves up or getting beheaded experimenting on their own.
To become a Council-level talent requires both that raw potential, and training to use it, and it's hard to find the kind of training that will bring you up to Council-level except from Council-level adepts.
Harry and Elaine, for example, if they had been adopted out to normal people and not Justin DuMorne, would likely never have come anywhere close to realizing their potential power. They might or might not have learned to use some magic, but without high-level training they'd probably have remained minor players or worse..
DuMorne, of course, was a rogue Council member.
It's going to be a rare, rare person who can reach Council-level without the proper training, and it's going to be rare for anybody not linked to the Council to be able to provide it.
There are several thousand Council members, IIRC. That sounds like a lot, but that's out of closing in on 8 billion people. I doubt if there are more than, at the most, say a 100 people in the world with Council-level talent and training who are not part of it.
All very true. The counterpoint though is that there are actually a lot more Council-level talents Now than there ever have been thanks to the 20th century population boom. The problem isnt that these talents dont exist, it's that more often than not the council gets to them too late to stop them from going Warlock (stupid jedi mind trick) and end up chopping them up rather than training them. And while the Council is Public Choice, they are far from the only clued in organization out there with an interest in the sorts of things a Mortal Wizard can do. Literally every single Supernatural Power out there is going to have mortal practitioners stashed away somewhere, and Im willing to make that as blanket a statement as possible. Id say even the Church likely has a few, though most of the clergy wouldnt realize their true power. It would be pretty easy to recruit away from the organization who's opening recruitment move is to explain that one day s/he might be back to chop off your head if you misbehave. Especially if you can offer the sorts of perks that Lara, Marcone, Bianca, LEA, etc etc etc could offer.
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It would be pretty easy to recruit away from the organization who's opening recruitment move is to explain that one day s/he might be back to chop off your head if you misbehave. Especially if you can offer the sorts of perks that Lara, Marcone, Bianca, LEA, etc etc etc could offer.
Practitioner head hunting. Magic use never felt so...corporate.
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Practitioner head hunting. Magic use never felt so...corporate.
Indeed. The whole reason the White Council Fears the Black Council is that they'd be offering an obvious alternative
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Indeed. The whole reason the White Council Fears the Black Council is that they'd be offering an obvious alternative
Still, that serves as a suitable counterpoint to the "standard" Supernatural powers having a pile of Wizards. If they did, the Black Council would be just more of the same.
Plus, the Red Court did not trot out a pile of them when it gathered the premier part of its power at Chichen Itza, and their spell was all Blood. We know some Vampires do learn, but they're not using a stash of Human wizards (and Changes suggests very few of the non-LordsofOuterNight Vampires were wizards, since they had no magical impact on the battle apart from Arianna in the duel - and she was aiming to take her place among the Lords).
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There almost certainly are some other Council-level 'wizards' who hide their power and ability from the Council, but there aren't likely to be very many.
Why? For one thing, Council-level potential is rare. There aren't very many people in the world who have even the potential to reach that level to begin with. Of them, the majority probably never get trained to the point where it matters, or else end up blowing themselves up or getting beheaded experimenting on their own.
To become a Council-level talent requires both that raw potential, and training to use it, and it's hard to find the kind of training that will bring you up to Council-level except from Council-level adepts.
Harry and Elaine, for example, if they had been adopted out to normal people and not Justin DuMorne, would likely never have come anywhere close to realizing their potential power. They might or might not have learned to use some magic, but without high-level training they'd probably have remained minor players or worse..
DuMorne, of course, was a rogue Council member.
It's going to be a rare, rare person who can reach Council-level without the proper training, and it's going to be rare for anybody not linked to the Council to be able to provide it.
There are several thousand Council members, IIRC. That sounds like a lot, but that's out of closing in on 8 billion people. I doubt if there are more than, at the most, say a 100 people in the world with Council-level talent and training who are not part of it.
I see your point. Most would lack the training and finesse to “fake” the tests.
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I see your point. Most would lack the training and finesse to “fake” the tests.
Or even to need to.
Elaine is more than good enough that she is properly entitled to demand a seat on the Council if she wants it, but for her own reasons she doesn't want it. She's even good enough to 'fake it' well enough to pass as almost Council level, good but not quite good enough. Not only can she fake it, she can fine-tune the fakery. Which is useful for her because faking it at that level means she can wield some pretty potent magic without alerting the local Wardens of just how hot her talent is.
But if she had not been raised and trained by a rogue Council member, she probably not only wouldn't be able to fake it that precisely, but she wouldn't actually be at Council level for real. If she knew any magic at all, it might be strong spells, but nothing like what would get you a Council seat.
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Still, that serves as a suitable counterpoint to the "standard" Supernatural powers having a pile of Wizards. If they did, the Black Council would be just more of the same.
Plus, the Red Court did not trot out a pile of them when it gathered the premier part of its power at Chichen Itza, and their spell was all Blood. We know some Vampires do learn, but they're not using a stash of Human wizards (and Changes suggests very few of the non-LordsofOuterNight Vampires were wizards, since they had no magical impact on the battle apart from Arianna in the duel - and she was aiming to take her place among the Lords).
Nah, we've actually seen it on stage (sort of) in the case of Maggie La Fey and the White Court. The Red Court is a specifically bad example because they have no need to keep mortal, they'd just turn them into vampires (unless they had /very/ niche outsider goals and needed literal "mortal" magic). But the vast majority of supernatural creatures would not be able to so easily absorb magical capabilities into their own ranks. Some could be innately magical but would not be able to reach the full capabilities of a mortal wizard, as is the case with the White court. many others would simply not have the numbers and/or breeding speeds to produce a significant number of wizards (which even applied to /humans/ until very recently. The Fomor are scooping them up left and right, which might be a clue that the reason we/Harry has not heard of it more is that doing so would be some sort of Accords Violation, since the Council can very easily claim Authority over all mortal practitioners (if not all human-kind).
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i feel the need to point out that pre Internet, paranet, and mass information sharing, it would have been almost impossible to self train yourself without a rebel wizard of some sort teaching you directly, or stealing books from practitioners likely much stronger than you.
Now though you could probably have a weaker paraneter download scores real magic spell books deep on the bit torrent network or the darknet and print them out for a paranoid young wizard. id say give it 50 years to develop and that situation with secret council level mages will increase exponentially.
im talking about the apprentice stages because after the basics wizards don't seem to need much outside help to improve.
for example i downloaded dozens of rare old occult books once just to skim through, there were WAY more available.
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i feel the need to point out that pre Internet, paranet, and mass information sharing, it would have been almost impossible to self train yourself without a rebel wizard of some sort teaching you directly, or stealing books from practitioners likely much stronger than you.
Now though you could probably have a weaker paraneter download scores real magic spell books deep on the bit torrent network or the darknet and print them out for a paranoid young wizard. id say give it 50 years to develop and that situation with secret council level mages will increase exponentially.
im talking about the apprentice stages because after the basics wizards don't seem to need much outside help to improve.
for example i downloaded dozens of rare old occult books once just to skim through, there were WAY more available.
It really all depends on how much useless Crap they'd have to wade through to get to the actual, applicable Lore. In a world were there is a real supernatural presence, I dont know if there would be less or maybe even MORE misinformation. Either way you'd need someone or someTHING that is clued in to Teach you. The purely Mortal options are basically limited to the White Council, the Venators, and St Giles Bro's, all of which have a vested interest in keeping the Information restricted to an exclusive group. All the non-mortal groups are likely going ot be more forthcoming but are going to have ulterior motives and less palatable means of Control (Unless you are talking to the Wraith Family specifically).
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One has to wonder about Harry though. If he hadn't killed Justin, got caught and put under the Doom, and as a minor in the custody of Eb, wouldn't he also be avoiding the White Council and faking his abilities if he was tested? I mean until he killed Justin and was captured by the Wardens, he didn't even know they existed. The fact that he survived and was placed in the care of Eb, not only his grandfather [unknown at the time] but also highly placed/regarded on the Council would insure a favorable view of the Council.. If he learned about the Council from other points of view, he might well have avoided becoming a member. Or if he had earlier understood his mother's rebellion against them and their prejudice against him because of her, he may also have figured out a way to avoid becoming a member.
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One has to wonder about Harry though. If he hadn't killed Justin, got caught and put under the Doom, and as a minor in the custody of Eb, wouldn't he also be avoiding the White Council and faking his abilities if he was tested? I mean until he killed Justin and was captured by the Wardens, he didn't even know they existed. The fact that he survived and was placed in the care of Eb, not only his grandfather [unknown at the time] but also highly placed/regarded on the Council would insure a favorable view of the Council.. If he learned about the Council from other points of view, he might well have avoided becoming a member. Or if he had earlier understood his mother's rebellion against them and their prejudice against him because of her, he may also have figured out a way to avoid becoming a member.
Given that he seemed to have a pretty negative view of the Council even /with/ his experience living with Eb, I'd assume that he'd be at least as distrustful if he'd learned about their idea of "justice" prior to being caught by it. The real catch would be that he'd still need somebody to tell him about them ahead of time. Which, now that you mention it, is a little conspicuous on Lea's part. If she actually thought warning him against them was in his own best interest, she'd have been bound by her Godmotherly duty to warn him. It's a little telling that she did did apparently believe that turning him over to them was the best thing for him, either to be taught by them or to simply learn to Survive them (or both). But she must have had a reasonably strong confidence that they wouldn't actually kill him, or she'd have warned him when she had the chance.
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Given that he seemed to have a pretty negative view of the Council even /with/ his experience living with Eb, I'd assume that he'd be at least as distrustful if he'd learned about their idea of "justice" prior to being caught by it. The real catch would be that he'd still need somebody to tell him about them ahead of time. Which, now that you mention it, is a little conspicuous on Lea's part. If she actually thought warning him against them was in his own best interest, she'd have been bound by her Godmotherly duty to warn him. It's a little telling that she did did apparently believe that turning him over to them was the best thing for him, either to be taught by them or to simply learn to Survive them (or both). But she must have had a reasonably strong confidence that they wouldn't actually kill him, or she'd have warned him when she had the chance.
Well, presumably Lea knew Eb was on the Council. And, from the way it was written in Proven Guilty, I think a Council member in good standing advocating for a one-mistake Warlock during times of peace is pretty likely to get a deferment of the death sentence. After all, one in bad standing during war almost managed it.
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Well, presumably Lea knew Eb was on the Council. And, from the way it was written in Proven Guilty, I think a Council member in good standing advocating for a one-mistake Warlock during times of peace is pretty likely to get a deferment of the death sentence. After all, one in bad standing during war almost managed it.
Indeed. But since he apparently did not (successfully at least) intervene on his own daughter's behalf, it seems odd if not impossible that she'd assume he's succeed with the grandson that he supposedly did not at that point know he had. Unless he knew about his grandson and left him in an orphanage, or later with a warlock.
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Indeed. But since he apparently did not (successfully at least) intervene on his own daughter's behalf, it seems odd if not impossible that she'd assume he's succeed with the grandson that he supposedly did not at that point know he had. Unless he knew about his grandson and left him in an orphanage, or later with a warlock.
Well, we don't know exactly all Margaret Dresden did to get onto the Council's list-for-punishment. For all we know she was far beyond anything like a single lawbreak by the time she broke up with Raith (or maybe hooking up with the enemy, being a political crime, has no such principles for reformation and education as a Warlock has).
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I don't think Harry knew of the existence of the White Council prior to his arrest, I seem to remember him saying that.
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Well, we don't know exactly all Margaret Dresden did to get onto the Council's list-for-punishment. For all we know she was far beyond anything like a single lawbreak by the time she broke up with Raith (or maybe hooking up with the enemy, being a political crime, has no such principles for reformation and education as a Warlock has).
Per Eb in BR she was suspected of things and generally had loud and unpopular views, but the only Law they were after her for was a violation of the First Law.
Of Course, in Eb's defense it one thing to be able to stand up for a Teenager who has clearly never had a full education, and quite another to ask for the Doom on a student that has nominally completed Eb's schooling already and /still/ when dark. I could see the council saying that Harry was still young but Maggie had already had her chances and made her adult choices.
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Per Eb in BR she was suspected of things and generally had loud and unpopular views, but the only Law they were after her for was a violation of the First Law.
I don't have the book handy, but IIRC he said something to the effects of 'the First Law, among other things'. I think Margaret was pretty far gone by the time she was on the run from the Council.
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i feel the need to point out that pre Internet, paranet, and mass information sharing, it would have been almost impossible to self train yourself without a rebel wizard of some sort teaching you directly, or stealing books from practitioners likely much stronger than you.
Now though you could probably have a weaker paraneter download scores real magic spell books deep on the bit torrent network or the darknet and print them out for a paranoid young wizard. id say give it 50 years to develop and that situation with secret council level mages will increase exponentially.
im talking about the apprentice stages because after the basics wizards don't seem to need much outside help to improve.
for example i downloaded dozens of rare old occult books once just to skim through, there were WAY more available.
But keep in mind that the Council is eventually going to start making sure that those sources are 'reviewed', esp. for anything touching on the Seventh Law.
Also, in the age of the Internet, now you'll have to figure out who to trust and who to run from fast. How does a self-training talent know to trust the Paranet but ignore the Metanet (which is secretly run by the White Court)?
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Metanet? Is that a theory or actual thing?
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Given that he seemed to have a pretty negative view of the Council even /with/ his experience living with Eb, I'd assume that he'd be at least as distrustful if he'd learned about their idea of "justice" prior to being caught by it. The real catch would be that he'd still need somebody to tell him about them ahead of time. Which, now that you mention it, is a little conspicuous on Lea's part. If she actually thought warning him against them was in his own best interest, she'd have been bound by her Godmotherly duty to warn him. It's a little telling that she did did apparently believe that turning him over to them was the best thing for him, either to be taught by them or to simply learn to Survive them (or both). But she must have had a reasonably strong confidence that they wouldn't actually kill him, or she'd have warned him when she had the chance.
That is what is odd, because even though the Council treated him like crap, he didn't rebel like his Mom.. Nor was his view of it entirely negative, his approach could be called a bit more passive/aggressive..
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Indeed. But since he apparently did not (successfully at least) intervene on his own daughter's behalf, it seems odd if not impossible that she'd assume he's succeed with the grandson that he supposedly did not at that point know he had. Unless he knew about his grandson and left him in an orphanage, or later with a warlock.
Margaret was never caught by the white council so Eb was never in a position to intervene at his daughters behalf. For that she first had to be caught.
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Margaret was never caught by the white council so Eb was never in a position to intervene at his daughters behalf. For that she first had to be caught.
https://www.paranetonline.com/index.php?action=post;quote=2309526;topic=51334.15;last_msg=2309526
But she was a member at one time I believe or at least as Eb's apprentice, part of it... Then she rebelled, so while she was never caught after she broke the more serious Laws that would cost her her head, she was part of it at one time. Review the interaction between Harry and the Senior Council at the beginning of Summer Knight, there is no mistaking there was former interaction between Margaret and the Senior Council.
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https://www.paranetonline.com/index.php?action=post;quote=2309526;topic=51334.15;last_msg=2309526
But she was a member at one time I believe or at least as Eb's apprentice, part of it... Then she rebelled, so while she was never caught after she broke the more serious Laws that would cost her her head, she was part of it at one time. Review the interaction between Harry and the Senior Council at the beginning of Summer Knight, there is no mistaking there was former interaction between Margaret and the Senior Council.
Sure but we will never know if Ebenezar's influence could have saved his daughter, it never came up.
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I doubt it. Margaret wasn't an untrained warlock, she has had a full apprenticeship (is that a word?) She has foreknowledge of the laws, and thus no excuse.
Still, she also played in the gray area, if Luccio is to be believed, and never crossed to the real black magic.
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I doubt it. Margaret wasn't an untrained warlock, she has had a full apprenticeship (is that a word?) She has foreknowledge of the laws, and thus no excuse.
Still, she also played in the gray area, if Luccio is to be believed, and never crossed to the real black magic.
I don’t think so either but we do not know the exact circumstances, we do not know exactly how far you get with politics in wizard trials.
But the merlin probably wanted her dead so she was better of hiding.
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Exactly. Besides, wardens get to kill on suspicion.
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Exactly. Besides, wardens get to kill on suspicion.
That is for suspects without connections. Those are just killed resisting arrest.
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Sure but we will never know if Ebenezar's influence could have saved his daughter, it never came up.
It appears that except for a select few, Rashid, LtW, and perhaps a couple more, the Council as a whole wasn't aware of Eb's relationship to either Margaret or Harry, if they had I think perhaps it would have turned out differently for Harry.
My point though, in the first couple of books Harry has an idealistic idea about magic thanks to Eb... That carried over to his view of the Council and being a member of the Council even if they did tend to treat him like crap...
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My point though, in the first couple of books Harry has an idealistic idea about magic thanks to Eb... That carried over to his view of the Council and being a member of the Council even if they did tend to treat him like crap...
Yeah. He still has that view of magic, but his view of the Council hasn't really changed. They're important and necessary, but he feels like they're bureaucratic jerks who play politics instead of doing real work to help. That, by the way, also seems to match Eb's perspective relatively closely.
Also, I think his view of the Council was more negative because of Morgan's decade-long harassment. He didn't trust the Council, but he HATED the Wardens.
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Yeah. He still has that view of magic, but his view of the Council hasn't really changed. They're important and necessary, but he feels like they're bureaucratic jerks who play politics instead of doing real work to help. That, by the way, also seems to match Eb's perspective relatively closely.
Also, I think his view of the Council was more negative because of Morgan's decade-long harassment. He didn't trust the Council, but he HATED the Wardens.
No, he didn't like Morgan's harassment etc., but he still stayed with the Council, how many times have you heard him say, "the Council can help?" If he really didn't believe in the Council do you think he would have encouraged Molly to turn herself in? Yeah, it was close and political, but in the end Harry and Molly carried the day. What chance would she have had had she decided to run, not just from getting the chop, but from becoming a full blown warlock?
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Exactly. Besides, wardens get to kill on suspicion.
I'm not sure that's actually true. Harry does say that once, but it's when he's trying to intimidate somebody. Even Morgan, who seems to be pretty uniquely extreme among the Wardens we've seen, waited for proof in Storm Front -- because he followed the rules. If Wardens were actually allowed to kill on suspicion, he'd have killed Harry as soon as the first heart-exploded corpses turned up.
Now, a Warden who did kill on suspicion could almost certainly get away with it -- Molly's trial was the first in ten or twelve years -- but I think that they are supposed to wait for solid evidence (Sight, soulgaze or whatever), even if they don't go through the procedure of a trial.
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If he really didn't believe in the Council do you think he would have encouraged Molly to turn herself in? Yeah, it was close and political, but in the end Harry and Molly carried the day. What chance would she have had had she decided to run, not just from getting the chop, but from becoming a full blown warlock?
That bit actually has always struck me as a bit odd. He really doesn't otherwise show signs of trusting the Council/Wardens that much... every time I read that part of PG I'm like "why don't you just confront Molly about it yourself and not tell anyone in the Council"? He could have still taken her as an apprentice.
I guess it's because Harry figured the Gatekeeper really knew what was going on from the beginning. (That's the only reason I can see why Harry seems to think Molly would get caught anyway -- Harry is the Regional Warden Commander for that area, and the Wardens are really really busy. Without the Gatekeeper, there'd be basically zero chance of her getting caught if Harry covered for her.)
he feels like they're bureaucratic jerks who play politics instead of doing real work to help. That, by the way, also seems to match Eb's perspective relatively closely.
Which seems pretty accurate from what we've seen them do.
Look how far the plan in WN got -- and it only got interrupted at all because Madrigal was intentionally taunting Harry into investigating. Something like that is precisely what the Council ought to be watching for, since they claim authority over all mortal practitioners.
And... they talk a lot about protecting humanity, but don't seem to actually do that much. There were 40 years or so between Kemmler's final death and the Vampire War, and the Wardens didn't manage to catch Grevane, Corpsetaker, etc. despite knowing who they were (Luccio certainly did) - one would think they'd be pretty high priority targets.
And ghouls don't seem to be Accords signatories - why hasn't the Council gone after them and other "unaffiliated" supernatural predators that prey on humanity? The Council's laws clearly don't consider them to be "people", so why aren't they long extinct?
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They didn't stop the plan in WN because as the organization stands now, they are obsolete. Far too little wardens, not enough duties assigned to regular council members, very old and ineffective system of information management and intelligence gathering. A history of fear and mistrust towards the wardens that the whites played on. The wardens getting nearly wiped out in dead beat is probably the best thing that happened to them as an organization; New blood will help revitalise things and change the negative image the mortal practitioners think of the council. But they still need a major change in their entire system (And hierarchy)
About the ghouls and other unaffiliated supernatural predators, I assume they didn't exterminate them in fear of retaliation. Or escalation. Think of what the reds would have done if the council exterminated their favorite hirelings? If they show too much power AND willingness to protect humans from predators, said predators will surely gang up on them and wipe the council out. I'm not saying it's the correct attitude, but I do see the point. If that indeed was the reason.
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They didn't stop the plan in WN because as the organization stands now, they are obsolete.
Yes, exactly. A history of fear and mistrust towards the wardens that the whites played on.
True... but that fear and mistrust is the result of the White Council's policies, so it's still their own flaws that allowed the situation to occur. If they'd been on top of things and set up something equivalent to the Paranet a century or so ago, the problem would never have arisen.
But they still need a major change in their entire system (And hierarchy)
Yeah, I don't know if it is salvageable without a total re-structuring. "Rule by the oldest" just doesn't work in a rapidly changing world. And basically ignoring the vast majority of mortal practitioners as irrelevant unless they break a Law is also a bad idea.
About the ghouls and other unaffiliated supernatural predators, I assume they didn't exterminate them in fear of retaliation. Or escalation. Think of what the reds would have done if the council exterminated their favorite hirelings? If they show too much power AND willingness to protect humans from predators, said predators will surely gang up on them and wipe the council out.
In the current era of the books, sure. But what about two or three centuries ago? The Vampire War was close because the Reds could use mortal technology and (probably far more importantly) because the Circle/Black Council was both messing up the White Council's war plans and helping out the Red Court by summoning Outsiders and such. The Reds' significant victories were due to those advantages, not their own assets. I can't see them daring to declare war in, say, 1700 AD over ghouls -- it would be incredibly one-sided.
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Harry's joined the wizard secret
police!" Bob burbled. "He gets to convict on suspicion and take
justice into his own hands! How cool is that!
Nobody contradicted him :)
Which doesn’t mean they all do but a rotten apple can get away with a lot.
Besides, he served warden Justin for years, he should know.
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Though having served Justin, that may have also given him a warped idea of what a Warden can do (officially).
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Unlikely. Justin was preparing a future thrall, not an apprentice. Dresden had no idea what a warden was at the time. He didn't know about the white council, and he definitely didn't know about any rules of magic.
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I don't think that Harry thinks the Council is obsolete, the Merlin does have a point, with the past wars there are far too few Wizards to go around to do what is needed. Yes, times have changed and most people think "The Sorcerer's Apprentice" is merely a Mickey Mouse short set to classical music.. However that being said, there are still kids being born with talent, and without guidance from qualified masters they turn into warlocks. Once that happens there are even fewer wizards willing to put their necks on the line for a process of rehab that usually fails anyway... Result is a mostly zero tolerance policy which often worse than the problem because it tends to throw the baby out with the bathwater... No, the Council is needed now more than ever, but there are just too few members willing to step up to go around.
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Though having served Justin, that may have also given him a warped idea of what a Warden can do (officially).
And a very good idea of what he can get away with, unofficially.
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I don't think that Harry thinks the Council is obsolete, the Merlin does have a point, with the past wars there are far too few Wizards to go around to do what is needed. Yes, times have changed and most people think "The Sorcerer's Apprentice" is merely a Mickey Mouse short set to classical music.. However that being said, there are still kids being born with talent, and without guidance from qualified masters they turn into warlocks. Once that happens there are even fewer wizards willing to put their necks on the line for a process of rehab that usually fails anyway... Result is a mostly zero tolerance policy which often worse than the problem because it tends to throw the baby out with the bathwater... No, the Council is needed now more than ever, but there are just too few members willing to step up to go around.
The problem didn't start after the red's war. The problem was that they didn't evolve with the times, disregarding mortal technology because they can't use it, being set in the same ways even though the world population soared. The fact that Justin found and secreted away two council level young wizards (and strong ones at that) is an indication of how weak the council's hold on the mortal magical community became. And that was a few decades befoe any wars. As you said, there isn't enough of them, and they're too arrogant and snobbish to call for help or change how they operate.
Maybe Harry doesn't think they're obsolete, but I do. They keep getting hit, and not replenishing their numbers or adapting fast enough. The only thing they're doing efficiently now is killing warlocks, and that just deprives them from future resources.
I'm not saying that they're not important. Their mere presence makes many predators think twice before considering mortal prey. But it's not enough.
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The problem didn't start after the red's war. The problem was that they didn't evolve with the times, disregarding mortal technology because they can't use it, being set in the same ways even though the world population soared. The fact that Justin found and secreted away two council level young wizards (and strong ones at that) is an indication of how weak the council's hold on the mortal magical community became. And that was a few decades befoe any wars. As you said, there isn't enough of them, and they're too arrogant and snobbish to call for help or change how they operate.
Maybe Harry doesn't think they're obsolete, but I do. They keep getting hit, and not replenishing their numbers or adapting fast enough. The only thing they're doing efficiently now is killing warlocks, and that just deprives them from future resources.
I'm not saying that they're not important. Their mere presence makes many predators think twice before considering mortal prey. But it's not enough.
There was more than just the war with the Reds, their numbers were diminishing before, true.. But I don't think technology is the reason, their numbers were going down since before the tech revolution.. It isn't that they disregard technology, they flat out cannot use it, for whatever reason. I really think if Harry could think of a way to block his effect on computers and other things he'd use it. Even when being out of it and examined with an x-ray it usually doesn't work and that is an old technology.
Harry is the only wizard that openly advertises, he gets hits but how many of his customers actually believe he is a real wizard with real earth shifting powers? Very few, and even when the see it with their own eyes, many still don't believe it.. The world has changed, true, belief systems have changed, vanilla mortals have their own kind of wizardry now, no need for a guy or gal with magical talent no matter how great.. Or unless you cross one, they don't even enter the mind of your average vanilla human... So some retreat and die, kids with talent and their parents are not informed of the dangers of that talent going untrained or that they are even dangerous... So like Molly, thinking she is helping her friends by going into their mind, she does, nearly destroying them and sending herself down a dark path in the process... If not pulled back in time, the Council has no choice but to give them the chop, the Merlin is right about that.
Obsolescence means something no longer fits the times, something better has come along.. Perhaps that is true for wizards, but kids are still being born with talent every day and get into trouble with it.. As long as that is true, there is a place for the Council and it's Wardens..
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Their numbers weren't exactly diminishing, they weren't growing fast enough to keep up with the increase in earth population.
And yes, they disregard technology. Maybe they can't use it, but what's stopping them from hiring those who can? Those with limited talents (like their phone operators) or even flat out vanilla mortals. For that matter, why don't they have a small standing army of mortals with machine guns and regular (or even magically enhanced) bullets? They'd respond faster and even better to certain threats.
On another hand, why not train those with limited talents to scout out young people who have the Talent? And possibly give them basic training and understanding of the laws? If not to spare their lives, then at least to avoid the loss of potential resources.
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Their numbers weren't exactly diminishing, they weren't growing fast enough to keep up with the increase in earth population.
And yes, they disregard technology. Maybe they can't use it, but what's stopping them from hiring those who can? Those with limited talents (like their phone operators) or even flat out vanilla mortals. For that matter, why don't they have a small standing army of mortals with machine guns and regular (or even magically enhanced) bullets? They'd respond faster and even better to certain threats.
On another hand, why not train those with limited talents to scout out young people who have the Talent? And possibly give them basic training and understanding of the laws? If not to spare their lives, then at least to avoid the loss of potential resources.
Because the white council is not about that. In the ind it is about restraining wizardry and not about encouraging it.
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Their numbers weren't exactly diminishing, they weren't growing fast enough to keep up with the increase in earth population.
And yes, they disregard technology. Maybe they can't use it, but what's stopping them from hiring those who can?
I'm sure they do hire those who can use it.
On another hand, why not train those with limited talents to scout out young people who have the Talent? And possibly give them basic training and understanding of the laws? If not to spare their lives, then at least to avoid the loss of potential resources.
Because they've been lazy and complacent. That's a large chunk of what the problem has been. They were on top for so long that when it began to slip, they were slow to recognize the problem.