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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: groinkick on May 26, 2018, 05:17:08 PM
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When Harry was badly burned Mavra made her escape.... We never really know what Eb was doing at the time. Locking down her magic somehow... Here is the thing. Does anyone else find it odd that Blackstaff Mccoy, a very powerful wizard who was Captain of the Wardens, and who's living is to hunt down dangerous, and powerful things that would target the White Council would not have found her when she was making her leave from the scene?
I'm wondering if at that time he did find her, and as the Blackstaff used Necromancy to control her. At a later date Eb used her to get the Book of Kemmler, something that sounds like it would fall under the Blackstaff's duty to get a hold of.
What say you?
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Controlling something with necromancy seems fairly concentration-intensive from all the other examples we've seen. Being half a world away fighting a couple pitched battles with the Red Court seems like less than ideal circumstances.
If he needs Harry to get it for him, just telling him there's a book of seriously bad juju on the market in his town and he needs to stow his feelings about the blackstaff revelation for a few days and go get it before someone else does seems like a more direct solution than puppeting Mavra into blackmailing Harry.
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I'm sure eb has plans involving mavra. I seriously doubt he didn't know exactly who Harry was going up against in blood rites. But I'd imagine even probably also thought Harry needed lessons. And I think mavra has been successful at teaching Harry via burned hand, etc.
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I'm not exactly sure what was going on but it did feel odd to me that Eb didn't do more during that rescue mission other than lock down Mavra's magic. Why wouldn't he do more? From what I remember even Kincaid wasn't confident that they would make it out alive and he's supposedly on Eb's level. It feels like at the very least there was something else going on during that time that we aren't aware of yet.
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From a story point, I find it unlikely that a major adversary is going to then suddenly be under the control of an ally of Harry.
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From a story point, I find it unlikely that a major adversary is going to then suddenly be under the control of an ally of Harry.
think about what it really means though.... Eb didn't tell Harry he had her under control. He used Mavra to blackmail Harry so he could get the Book of Kemmler... From a story point of view it means Harry's relationship with Eb would be destroyed.
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Bah. I find it very unlikely Eb or anyone could have perfect control in a situation like that even if Eb had control of her. I think it more likely that Eb either has foresight or has a better understanding of what Mavra is after. It is clear that Mavra has found Harry useful to her, which is why she really hasn't planned to end him. Eb likely has his hand in things. He may pretty much know how things will tend to play out and really didn't think Harry under the circumstances in BR to be in much danger.
Some of my crazier Wag's:
I've liked thinking that the Murphy Family Reunion will somehow, someday get associated with a Fae Family Reunion. Maybe with Mother Murphy taking on the role of one of the Mothers, Murphy's brother(s) as some figures, etc. I've thought that perhaps the Murphy family reunion will get transported in time, something like may have happened in the Unseelie Incursion 1994 when Milwaukee vanished from the map and was replaced with untouched forest. Yes, I realize we don't know it was 'transported in time,' but we do know it seems the ancient forest was 'transported in time'. It stands to reason that Milwaukee may have been too. Anyways, I have this idea where Eb has this inkiling of who Mab's true identity, etc and gets to meet her/Murphy for the first time. Then, they go on to a family reunion where the Blackstaff stands on the sidelines as one of the future/past/alternate realities' Mothers (Mother Murphy) tends to the extended family.
Anyways, those are kinda my wandering thoughts.
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Just to answer the OP, I highly doubt Eb was controlling Mavra at anytime in the series. However, I found it strange Ebenezer had something that could specifically target and lock down her magic. Also, he didn't want to talk about how he planned to do so. Though it didn't interfer with Mavra's ability to remain under a veil while photographing Murphy kill the Reinfield.
I wonder if sometime in the future; if Harry decides to tell Ebenezer that Mavra is still among the living undead, the old man will feel like sharing his secret and perhaps tell Harry about any past dealings he had with Mavra. My guess is Eb and Mavra have some past history. Wouldn't it be funny if Ebenezer dated Mavra before she was turned? Ok, I know, that's just silly.
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My guess is Eb and Mavra have some past history. Wouldn't it be funny if Ebenezer dated Mavra before she was turned? Ok, I know, that's just silly.
WOJ was that Mavra is from the late 1400's or so, therefore predating Eb's birth by quite a bit. She might be one of the first few blamps turned by Dracula.
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WOJ was that Mavra is from the late 1400's or so, therefore predating Eb's birth by quite a bit. She might be one of the first few blamps turned by Dracula.
Perhaps she has relations to someone else like Mab.
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WOJ was that Mavra is from the late 1400's or so, therefore predating Eb's birth by quite a bit. She might be one of the first few blamps turned by Dracula.
Eh, if she's as skilled with magic as she seems, she could have been a wizard before she was turned and thus possibly still be human enough to date Eb.
Hell, depending on how skilled she is vs Eb, she could have been turned and still dated him without him knowing.
I mean, I doubt it, but there's ways it could happen.
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Eh, if she's as skilled with magic as she seems, she could have been a wizard before she was turned and thus possibly still be human enough to date Eb.
Hell, depending on how skilled she is vs Eb, she could have been turned and still dated him without him knowing.
I mean, I doubt it, but there's ways it could happen.
Perhaps his mother in law LoL
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In a word? No...
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I'm gonna say probably not. Mavra is a Council-level mage herself, and if any wizard necromancer could control you, you'd find countermeasures right quick. Considering how Mavra went out of her way to secure the Word of Kemmler and Dresden says it's specifically the Word that can be used against the BC, it's probably necessary to control a BCV.
And just because Ebenezer is allowed to break the law doesn't mean he knows everything about doing so.
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However, I found it strange Ebenezer had something that could specifically target and lock down her magic. Also, he didn't want to talk about how he planned to do so.
Harry did the same thing with Kravos in between storm front and fool moon. Granted Harry had hair, but eb wasn't much phased by not having that, but if I can remember He said it would be more like a wet blanket.
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Perhaps his mother in law LoL
Oh, good grief. Dresden would LOVE that new relation.
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Oh, good grief. Dresden would LOVE that new relation.
And that's why it would be so epic!
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WOJ was that Mavra is from the late 1400's or so, therefore predating Eb's birth by quite a bit. She might be one of the first few blamps turned by Dracula.
Do we know this for a fact? Harry noticed that the fabric of her medieval outfit was cotton rather than wool, meaning it was of modern manufacture. Maybe Mavra is old, but no so old as she pretends. Mavra would pretend to be a few hundred years older than her actual age in order to make herself a more mysterious figure, enhance her reputation and make other magic users think twice about taking her on in a fight. The Black Court's greatest strength before Stoker's book was lack of knowledge about them. Mavra might have decided this was a good personal defence too.
However, that's just a WAG, and not a very serious one. There's something really pathetic about Mavra sticking with medieval clothing; which in every painting, period movie or museum manikin I've seen in such outfits, doesn't look very comfortable. Mostly it looks like it was designed to keep people warm, which isn't really a problem Mavra faces. It's like she's trying to hold onto a tiny piece of who she once was.
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Perhaps she has relations to someone else like Mab.
I'm Wagging She's actually Morgana Le fay herself, just changed by an unfortunate incident with the Blamps. Because of how Blamps appear to be though, I think her transformation separated her from Nemesis proper,(whom is equated on some level to the Greek deity) though her past self still holds the same connections/mirroring's.... Think Nemesis is Mother level and Morgana was ousted from say, queen level.
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Do we know this for a fact?
Yup, per WOJ: "I think she's about 600."
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Harry noticed that the fabric of her medieval outfit was cotton rather than wool, meaning it was of modern manufacture.
I would be very surprised if her original clothing survived 600 years of Blamping. Most likely replacement clothing.
There's something really pathetic about Mavra sticking with medieval clothing; which in every painting, period movie or museum manikin I've seen in such outfits, doesn't look very comfortable.
I don't know about that. The Queens of the Faerie Courts maintain a much more Medieval fashion sense (Maeve being the exception), and I assume they could procure whatever form of dress they desire. Mab only went modern businesswoman in Skin Game to avoid attracting attention. Why deviate from what you know/like?
As for comfort, I can't speak for women's clothing, but the men's clothing I've worn at SCA events hasn't been uncomfortable.
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Comfort is a worry for those of us with working nerves and muscle tissue. I don't think Mavra much cares whether her outfit chafes.
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Yes, Mab is almost certainly under Eb's control.
And good job, discovering one of JB's clues. Although, it's not the biggest one.
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When Harry was badly burned Mavra made her escape.... We never really know what Eb was doing at the time. Locking down her magic somehow... Here is the thing. Does anyone else find it odd that Blackstaff Mccoy, a very powerful wizard who was Captain of the Wardens, and who's living is to hunt down dangerous, and powerful things that would target the White Council would not have found her when she was making her leave from the scene?
I'm wondering if at that time he did find her, and as the Blackstaff used Necromancy to control her. At a later date Eb used her to get the Book of Kemmler, something that sounds like it would fall under the Blackstaff's duty to get a hold of.
What say you?
I have wondered if Eb was Black Council/Circle for some time. Maggy Sr. Had to learn her rebelliousness from somewhere. More circumstantial evidence in tjat direction.
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I have wondered if Eb was Black Council/Circle for some time. Maggy Sr. Had to learn her rebelliousness from somewhere. More circumstantial evidence in tjat direction.
I mean it's possible but I think Eb explained her rebelliousness by him pushing her too hard. That's understandable, and happens a lot when parents push their children too much.
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I mean it's possible but I think Eb explained her rebelliousness by him pushing her too hard. That's understandable, and happens a lot when parents push their children too much.
Or, Maggie Sr. Really is a chip off the old block.
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Or, Maggie Sr. Really is a chip off the old block.
LoL.. Really think Eb is dark side eh?
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Personally, I think Margaret found out about the Blackstaff position, and that's what soured her on the White Council.
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Nah, that'd fit fine with her beliefs, as Luccio put them in Turncoat. Grey areas of magic, White Council directly acting, instead of reacting and being passive.
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I really don't get the assertion that Maggie "picked up" being a rebel from Ebenezer, especially since he's the person she was rebelling against. Children, when they rebel, don't rebel in a way that makes them aligned with exactly how the person they're rebelling against acts.
Plus? Again, no evidence that Ebenezer is darkside, or shared any of the traits that Maggie is said to have when she was rebelling against him.
The whole rebellion that we know about is based around Maggie and Ebenezer loudly and violently disagreeing on exactly the issues y'all are saying that Maggie and Ebenezer were supposedly on the same side of.
This whole line of thinking just plain makes no sense to me.
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Do we know this for a fact? Harry noticed that the fabric of her medieval outfit was cotton rather than wool, meaning it was of modern manufacture. Maybe Mavra is old, but no so old as she pretends. Mavra would pretend to be a few hundred years older than her actual age in order to make herself a more mysterious figure, enhance her reputation and make other magic users think twice about taking her on in a fight. The Black Court's greatest strength before Stoker's book was lack of knowledge about them. Mavra might have decided this was a good personal defence too.
However, that's just a WAG, and not a very serious one. There's something really pathetic about Mavra sticking with medieval clothing; which in every painting, period movie or museum manikin I've seen in such outfits, doesn't look very comfortable. Mostly it looks like it was designed to keep people warm, which isn't really a problem Mavra faces. It's like she's trying to hold onto a tiny piece of who she once was.
I was going by the WOJ Quantus quoted, not just her clothing. Comfort is probably just not a big deal for her, and she can't be bothered keeping up with the food's changing ideas of what's fashionable.
If she's into putting defensive enchantments or concealed light armour modifications on her clothing, she might just be making period replacements because it's what she knows how to make herself, rather than for the sake of residual attachment to her human identity.
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Nah, that'd fit fine with her beliefs, as Luccio put them in Turncoat. Grey areas of magic, White Council directly acting, instead of reacting and being passive.
I don't think so. My interpretation of the picture Luccio painted was that she wanted the Council to do more, to expand the explicit Laws to protect more people—not act outside them. She already thinks the Laws are inadequate, and finds out that her dad is allowed to break the few (reasonable) restrictions already placed on the rest of wizards? That's an ideological disagreement I wouldn't want to be in the middle of.
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LoL.. Really think Eb is dark side eh?
I don’t think he believes he is, but, from the White Council’s perspective he may be.
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I don't think so. My interpretation of the picture Luccio painted was that she wanted the Council to do more, to expand the explicit Laws to protect more people—not act outside them. She already thinks the Laws are inadequate, and finds out that her dad is allowed to break the few (reasonable) restrictions already placed on the rest of wizards? That's an ideological disagreement I wouldn't want to be in the middle of.
To use Magic to command the Law itself, to choose for others situations, to align one side as 'innocent', Mmmm... Seems to me she wanted to apply a systematic belief to what magic should be used for by it's holders that does not align with it's current condition. Sounds Dangerous... and a bit like some mythos's I recognize.
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Kindler,
I don't think so. My interpretation of the picture Luccio painted was that she wanted the Council to do more, to expand the explicit Laws to protect more people—not act outside them. She already thinks the Laws are inadequate, and finds out that her dad is allowed to break the few (reasonable) restrictions already placed on the rest of wizards? That's an ideological disagreement I wouldn't want to be in the middle of.
What's hard about that is we are hearing everything from Luccio's perspective. She is very conservative when it comes to what magical laws should exist and how they should be applied. I sincerely wish we could get something written by Maggie Sr. regarding what she wanted and believed or a scene in flashback with her advocating her position.
My point on Eb is not that he is a mustache twirling villain. Far from it. If Eb is "Black Council/Circle" I think we have to reexamine what it is the Black Council/Circle are advocating. There is a third possibility too that Eb has been operating outside White Council sanction for some time and that the "Black Council/Circle" are a more radical splinter of the faction that Eb has been leading that is seeking change to Magical Laws which has forced Eb back into the arms of the White Council to fight that splinter faction.
Remember, Eb was willing (back in the day) to sit down to dinner with White and Red Court Vampires. That means he was willing to talk to beings that preyed upon humans. It suggests a certain degree of moral flexibility in Eb that may not be currently how he is portrayed.
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I don’t think he believes he is, but, from the White Council’s perspective he may be.
If the White Council believed Ebenezer was dark side, they wouldn't have given him the authority to break the laws.
Remember, Eb was willing (back in the day) to sit down to dinner with White and Red Court Vampires. That means he was willing to talk to beings that preyed upon humans. It suggests a certain degree of moral flexibility in Eb that may not be currently how he is portrayed.
Not quite. He was willing to go to a dinner with Maggie, who hadn't told him who all would be there.
And in Storm Front, Harry was willing to talk to Bianca. He's been willing to talk to Lara repeatedly. This graph means nothing. As Accords members, all wizards are expected to be able to behave themselves and talk to the vampire courts in social settings.
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Kindler,
What's hard about that is we are hearing everything from Luccio's perspective. She is very conservative when it comes to what magical laws should exist and how they should be applied. I sincerely wish we could get something written by Maggie Sr. regarding what she wanted and believed or a scene in flashback with her advocating her position.
Oh, I absolutely agree; we don't have enough information, and none of it is unbiased. There's even a function to have those flashbacks; the gem she left Harry operates similarly to research notes. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a private journal on there. I've been patiently waiting for Harry to investigate that gem more thoroughly since Cold Days. We only had one flippin' scene with it, three books ago; it's bound to come back soon.
That said, I think that Luccio was fair in her discussion about Margaret. Luccio being conservative about the Laws doesn't mean that Margaret didn't want the Laws to go further than they did, or for the Council to get more involved in protecting vanillas from the Wizards in it. My point is that Margaret demonstrated, from Luccio's perspective, distaste that wizards could screw around with vanilla mortals in absurd ways without technically breaking any of the Laws. This means, to me, that Margaret wished the Laws could be changed, or interpreted differently (the Spirit of the Law, rather than its Letter) so that wizards couldn't do those kinds of things without punishment. To my point, I'd imagine that Ebenezer being free to break the LETTER of the Laws instead of just their spirit would not sit well with Margaret at all, who already thought the Laws were too weak.
All of that aside, I do very much want to hear Margaret explain herself; she seems like an awfully interesting character. Maybe Jim might want to add a novella from her perspective, after the important-to-the-series details about her are revealed in the main novels. Might be a good pre-BAT addition to the series.
My point on Eb is not that he is a mustache twirling villain. Far from it. If Eb is "Black Council/Circle" I think we have to reexamine what it is the Black Council/Circle are advocating. There is a third possibility too that Eb has been operating outside White Council sanction for some time and that the "Black Council/Circle" are a more radical splinter of the faction that Eb has been leading that is seeking change to Magical Laws which has forced Eb back into the arms of the White Council to fight that splinter faction.
I don't think Eb is Black Council either. I think Eb is Harry taken to his logical extreme; do what's right, and damn the cost, even if it runs counter to the White Council's position. I don't really get why a lot of fans think Eb is a villain (or well-intentioned extremist, however you want to put it). People are free to believe whatever they like, of course, but I just don't get that interpretation.
Remember, Eb was willing (back in the day) to sit down to dinner with White and Red Court Vampires. That means he was willing to talk to beings that preyed upon humans. It suggests a certain degree of moral flexibility in Eb that may not be currently how he is portrayed.
Yeah. So is Harry, for what it's worth, which is part of what I mean when I say Eb is Harry taken to the extreme.
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I don't think Eb is Black Council either. I think Eb is Harry taken to his logical extreme; do what's right, and damn the cost, even if it runs counter to the White Council's position. I don't really get why a lot of fans think Eb is a villain (or well-intentioned extremist, however you want to put it). People are free to believe whatever they like, of course, but I just don't get that interpretation.
Yeah, I don't get it either -- the actions we've seen him take on screen are against either confirmed or suspected Black Council/Circle agents, including forming his own Grey Council specifically in response to the Black Council, and yet it seems like half the forum takes it as a given that he's helping or leading or had formed the group he keeps attacking.
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Yeah, I don't get it either -- the actions we've seen him take on screen are against either confirmed or suspected Black Council/Circle agents, including forming his own Grey Council specifically in response to the Black Council, and yet it seems like half the forum takes it as a given that he's helping or leading or had formed the group he keeps attacking.
I get having some reservations about him, because he kept a bunch of secrets and he does some shady things, but I just can't see him being a part of Cowl's entourage (or Cowl), for example. Doesn't fit what we know about him.
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I get having some reservations about him, because he kept a bunch of secrets and he does some shady things
Which is exactly something you would expect from the wetworks man of the White Council.
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Mr. Death
If the White Council believed Ebenezer was dark side, they wouldn't have given him the authority to break the laws.Not quite. He was willing to go to a dinner with Maggie, who hadn't told him who all would be there.
I'm presuming that the White Council (or at least those in charge of the White Council) are unaware of Eb's not fully loyal attitude.
And in Storm Front, Harry was willing to talk to Bianca. He's been willing to talk to Lara repeatedly. This graph means nothing. As Accords members, all wizards are expected to be able to behave themselves and talk to the vampire courts in social settings.
A fair point. I missed that nuance.
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Mr. Death,
Yeah, I don't get it either -- the actions we've seen him take on screen are against either confirmed or suspected Black Council/Circle agents, including forming his own Grey Council specifically in response to the Black Council, and yet it seems like half the forum takes it as a given that he's helping or leading or had formed the group he keeps attacking.
I believe I have written in the past speculating that the "Grey Council" could be the "Black Council" after all we only know of three members. I have to wonder if this is a way to pull Harry into their orbit without Harry knowing what they are doing.
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Mr. Death
I'm presuming that the White Council (or at least those in charge of the White Council) are unaware of Eb's not fully loyal attitude.
Ah, I misinterpreted your line to mean you thought the White Council views him as darkside, when what you meant was they would view him as darkside if they knew, yes?
Mr. Death,
I believe I have written in the past speculating that the "Grey Council" could be the "Black Council" after all we only know of three members. I have to wonder if this is a way to pull Harry into their orbit without Harry knowing what they are doing.
Considering Odin is also Grey Council and he is clearly not Black Council, and that the single Grey Council action we've seen was a massive strike against the Black Council's biggest weapon -- with Lea and by extension Mab calling them into that battle directly -- this argument just does not hold any water with me.
I don't see any actions Ebenezer has taken -- or has had attributed to him -- that indicate he could possibly be Black Council.
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Ah, I misinterpreted your line to mean you thought the White Council views him as darkside, when what you meant was they would view him as darkside if they knew, yes?
Considering Odin is also Grey Council and he is clearly not Black Council, and that the single Grey Council action we've seen was a massive strike against the Black Council's biggest weapon -- with Lea and by extension Mab calling them into that battle directly -- this argument just does not hold any water with me.
I don't see any actions Ebenezer has taken -- or has had attributed to him -- that indicate he could possibly be Black Council.
I agree entirely, I dont think McCoy is actually Black, as there are just too many things past and present that would make no sense if he were on that Team.
That being said, as a Devil's Advocate statement: I would not include Lea and by extension Mab's presence in Changes in your reasoning. According to Lea there was a Back-room deal between her and Vadderung involved in what went down in Changes. And of any faction, SG proved that Mab would have no qualms about working beside an enemy if the bargain were sound.
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I agree entirely, I dont think McCoy is actually Black, as there are just too many things past and present that would make no sense if he were on that Team.
That being said, as a Devil's Advocate statement: I would not include Lea and by extension Mab's presence in Changes in your reasoning. According to Lea there was a Back-room deal between her and Vadderung involved in what went down in Changes. And of any faction, SG proved that Mab would have no qualms about working beside an enemy if the bargain were sound.
There is a difference between working with an enemy and working with The Enemy. The Red Court were Black Council weapons -- Cowl used them and allied with them, as did the Fomor. If the Black Council is Outsider-aligned (and Cowl's presence heavily implies if not confirms it is), then Mab is definitely against it.
Besides, Mab wasn't working beside any enemies in Skin Game. Her goal was explicitly, from the start, to undermine and subvert Nicodemus's plans.
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Considering Odin is also Grey Council and he is clearly not Black Council, and that the single Grey Council action we've seen was a massive strike against the Black Council's biggest weapon -- with Lea and by extension Mab calling them into that battle directly -- this argument just does not hold any water with me.
I don't see any actions Ebenezer has taken -- or has had attributed to him -- that indicate he could possibly be Black Council.
Then, perhaps the “Black Council” isn’t what we think it is. That’s my whole point.
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Then, perhaps the “Black Council” isn’t what we think it is. That’s my whole point.
So your not saying that maybe the Grey Council is secretly Black, you are saying that maybe the Black Council is secretly Grey?
I can dig it.
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Then, perhaps the “Black Council” isn’t what we think it is. That’s my whole point.
Okay, now I'm understanding what you meant a bit better, and what you meant about doing what's necessary, etc. If the Black Council/Circle/Cowl and his SuperPals were actually working towards a goal that was less "Destroy the World because we're the Bad Guys and that's Our Job" and more "We have to Destroy Some Things to Save the Rest" or something less obviously...black, then I could see Eb working alongside them.
That said, I think that the Black Council is way too morally bankrupt for Eb to work with them. Peabody, for instance, popped a mordite-infused mistfiend into a dark, crowded room, offing fifty wizards, for instance. There's being an antihero, and there's being a villain with an excuse.
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Then, perhaps the “Black Council” isn’t what we think it is. That’s my whole point.
What has the Black Council done -- either on screen or attributed to them -- that indicates that they're anything besides black-hearted villains?
Was it when they backed a plot to murder innocent women and thus prevent magically adept humans from being born?
Was it when their agents sought to blow up Demonreach, which would've destroyed a chunk of the US and killed millions?
Was it when Peabody murdered a Senior Council member and framed the Wardens to try and subvert and divide the council, then murdered dozens of wizards with mordite when he was found out?
Perhaps it was when their allies, the Fomor, were kidnapping innocent men, women and children and planned to murder an unborn child to break the mother?
Seriously -- everything that could possibly be attributed to the Black Council is abhorrent and evil actions.
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Considering Odin is also Grey Council and he is clearly not Black Council, and that the single Grey Council action we've seen was a massive strike against the Black Council's biggest weapon -- with Lea and by extension Mab calling them into that battle directly -- this argument just does not hold any water with me.
Besides which, Ariana was ultimately trying to use the bloodline curse to kill Ebenezar. If it had just been about Harry, she could have blown him up in his office at any time. That doesn't scream that they were secret colleagues on the Black Council to me.
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So your not saying that maybe the Grey Council is secretly Black, you are saying that maybe the Black Council is secretly Grey?
I can dig it.
Precisely.
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Mr. Death,
What has the Black Council done -- either on screen or attributed to them -- that indicates that they're anything besides black-hearted villains?
Was it when they backed a plot to murder innocent women and thus prevent magically adept humans from being born?
Was it when their agents sought to blow up Demonreach, which would've destroyed a chunk of the US and killed millions?
Was it when Peabody murdered a Senior Council member and framed the Wardens to try and subvert and divide the council, then murdered dozens of wizards with mordite when he was found out?
Perhaps it was when their allies, the Fomor, were kidnapping innocent men, women and children and planned to murder an unborn child to break the mother?
Seriously -- everything that could possibly be attributed to the Black Council is abhorrent and evil actions.
Again, we don't know enough to know who was behind all that. What I wonder is if "the Circle" isn't a splinter off of the "Grey Council" which is what Harry has thought was the "Black Council". There can and might be more than one organization moving in the background undermining the power of the White Council.
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Snark Knight,
Besides which, Ariana was ultimately trying to use the bloodline curse to kill Ebenezar. If it had just been about Harry, she could have blown him up in his office at any time. That doesn't scream that they were secret colleagues on the Black Council to me.
You are assuming the Reds were part of the Black Council/The Circle. We don't know that they were. If they were where was Cowl at Chichen Itza?
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You are assuming the Reds were part of the Black Council/The Circle. We don't know that they were. If they were where was Cowl at Chichen Itza?
Not all the Reds as a unified nation, just Ariana. Cowl doesn't need to be present at every single thing the Circle does - it would have been actively counterproductive to Ariana's moment of political glory to have a dark wizard around seen as supervising her. She never figured on Harry piecing together what they were up to in time to turn it into a slugging match.
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Mr. Death,
Again, we don't know enough to know who was behind all that. What I wonder is if "the Circle" isn't a splinter off of the "Grey Council" which is what Harry has thought was the "Black Council". There can and might be more than one organization moving in the background undermining the power of the White Council.
We know enough to start drawing conclusions; we can place Outsiders behind several of those actions, and people who we've since learned were allied with Outsiders at the others.
"Black Council" is a name Harry came up with, but "The Circle" fits what he'd assumed and concluded about the Black Council.
And the "Grey Council" was deliberately and explicitly founded in response to the Black Council/Circle, so it makes no sense for the Circle to have splintered off from it.
What we still do not have is any actions taken by suspected or confirmed members of the Circle/Black Council doing anything we can construe as being good or well-intentioned. Nor have any of their agents offered justification for why they're doing evil things.
The idea that the Black Council is somehow not badguys just plain does not have support in the text, and neither does the idea that Ebenezer is their ally.
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Well, if we circle back to DB, we get to see a justification of "black magic" used to preserve life by Kumori, who is directly attached to Cowl, who is part of the Circle. That doesn't, in any way, rule out the Black Council being the in universe front for the the Outsiders. But it could indicate that members of the organization are capable of being turned. If Kumori were smacked in the face with proof that her noble goal of ending death would actually ruin existence, she might leave the Black Council or turn double agent. Combined with Nic's "One day" remark about being a Saint, I think it is entirely possible the end goals of the Black Council are EVIL, but they have deceived members with false hopes and impossible utopias.
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That I can agree with -- and I think it's notable that we didn't see Kumori with Cowl the second time, and I don't think it's because she died.
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We know enough to start drawing conclusions; we can place Outsiders behind several of those actions, and people who we've since learned were allied with Outsiders at the others.
"Black Council" is a name Harry came up with, but "The Circle" fits what he'd assumed and concluded about the Black Council.
And the "Grey Council" was deliberately and explicitly founded in response to the Black Council/Circle, so it makes no sense for the Circle to have splintered off from it.
What we still do not have is any actions taken by suspected or confirmed members of the Circle/Black Council doing anything we can construe as being good or well-intentioned. Nor have any of their agents offered justification for why they're doing evil things.
The idea that the Black Council is somehow not badguys just plain does not have support in the text, and neither does the idea that Ebenezer is their ally.
We have only Eb's word about the rationale and structure of the Grey Council. We know two other members but we don't know why they joined or what they hope to get out of the Grey Council.
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Snark Knight,
You are assuming the Reds were part of the Black Council/The Circle. We don't know that they were. If they were where was Cowl at Chichen Itza?
Probably working behind the scenes somewhere else while Dresden, Leah, KoTC, and other allies were distracted at Chichen Itza. Also remember that only wizards can summon Outsiders. So where the Outsiders have been you can start making connections to the Black Council.
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We have only Eb's word about the rationale and structure of the Grey Council. We know two other members but we don't know why they joined or what they hope to get out of the Grey Council.
What reason do we have to doubt Ebenezer's word? What actions have been attributed to him that would make one think he's lying?
As far as I'm concerned, those other two members confirm what side the Grey Council is on.
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Yes, every organization's members could potentially be flipped, even those infected by Nemesis. Remember something that Mab or someone said "I think".. She said: Yes, she can be cured, but she has to want to be cured.
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Mr. Death,
What reason do we have to doubt Ebenezer's word? What actions have been attributed to him that would make one think he's lying?
As far as I'm concerned, those other two members confirm what side the Grey Council is on.
He lied to Harry about the significance of the Laws and didn't tell Harry that he had a license to kill him if he misbehaved. He never told Harry he was his Grandfather until after Harry figured it out for himself. Eb may not lie but he has a long history of choosing which "truths" he will choose to reveal. I would be floored if there weren't much more to the "Grey Council" than Eb is choosing to tell Harry.
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Mr. Death,
He lied to Harry about the significance of the Laws and didn't tell Harry that he had a license to kill him if he misbehaved. He never told Harry he was his Grandfather until after Harry figured it out for himself. Eb may not lie but he has a long history of choosing which "truths" he will choose to reveal. I would be floored if there weren't much more to the "Grey Council" than Eb is choosing to tell Harry.
That's fair enough, but I doubt that the Truths about the Grey Council will be anything that would make me cringe, or totally mistrust Eb. Maybe some morally Grey stuff (see how clever I am!) close to what we knew about the Fellowship of St. Giles. Espionage, questionable judgment calls, harsh responses, ruthlessness—that kind of thing I could see, but no bombshell that would push Eb into the Bad Guy category.
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Mr. Death,
He lied to Harry about the significance of the Laws and didn't tell Harry that he had a license to kill him if he misbehaved. He never told Harry he was his Grandfather until after Harry figured it out for himself. Eb may not lie but he has a long history of choosing which "truths" he will choose to reveal. I would be floored if there weren't much more to the "Grey Council" than Eb is choosing to tell Harry.
I don't see how any of that points to Ebenezer being a badguy.
Does it say he hid things from Harry (arguably for Harry's own protection)? Yes. Does it say he did those things out of villainous intentions? No, quite the opposite.
Harry's lied to his allies or hidden truths from them for the same sorts of reasons ("You don't want to get involved with this," "You'll be in danger if you know this," "I don't want my enemies to know we're related."). Do those make Harry a bad guy?
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Mr. Death,
I don't see how any of that points to Ebenezer being a badguy.
Does it say he hid things from Harry (arguably for Harry's own protection)? Yes. Does it say he did those things out of villainous intentions? No, quite the opposite.
Harry's lied to his allies or hidden truths from them for the same sorts of reasons ("You don't want to get involved with this," "You'll be in danger if you know this," "I don't want my enemies to know we're related."). Do those make Harry a bad guy?
You are looking at this in a very "black v. white" and morally absolute fashion. As such you are missing my point. I suspect that Eb is not the "good guy" some want him to be. I suspect that he is not a paragon of moral virtue and that by some people's defintions he may even be a "bad guy". That doesn't mean I think he is, as I said before, a mustache twirling villain, just that he may be a much darker shade of gray than anyone suspects.
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Mr. Death,
He lied to Harry about the significance of the Laws and didn't tell Harry that he had a license to kill him if he misbehaved. He never told Harry he was his Grandfather until after Harry figured it out for himself. Eb may not lie but he has a long history of choosing which "truths" he will choose to reveal. I would be floored if there weren't much more to the "Grey Council" than Eb is choosing to tell Harry.
what!?!? he drilled the laws into Harry's head.
The reason he didn't tell Harry about the Blackstaff is obvious for a number of reasons. First off he doesn't want to confuse a person who's shown the ability to go dark side that breaking the laws of magic are "ok" under certain circumstances. He wanted Harry to know the laws of magic, and drill home that they must be followed. Showing that he's the Blackstaff and breaks those rules would only prove confusing, and someone like Harry who's naturally defiant would be more tempted to violate the laws.
Second I mean it's a covert position, why would he share that?
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what!?!? he drilled the laws into Harry's head.
While breaking them himself. He said they were absolutes. Clearly, they aren't.
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While breaking them himself. He said they were absolutes. Clearly, they aren't.
And Harry who is tempted to go dark side would have had the same response which goes to show that it was a good thing that Eb didn't tell him.
The laws are to stop corruption caused by using the magic, not because of morality... They are against killing with magic but don't hesitate to cut your head off hence it's about corruption. Eb has a tool that prevents such corruption. He's the only person on the Council with such a tool so the laws are absolute for everyone else.
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Ebenezer being an explicit exception to the laws doesn't mean he was lying about their nature.
Cops have the authority to shoot people in the course of their duties -- does that change the nature of laws prohibiting murder?
My point is, the "morally dark" things that have been attributed to him have had explicit or implicit good aims. His goal, demonstrated by his actions, is to protect humanity and uphold the Laws of Magic against abuse and corruption. When asked, he showed enormous regret and sadness that he did what he had to do.
I argue he has the Blackstaff because he is as close to a paragon of moral virtue as the Council has. You wouldn't want to give the Blackstaff to anyone else because otherwise you're inviting someone to abuse the power.
So Ebenezer has lied or omitted things. Taking into account everything we've seen of his character, though, that is not nearly enough to suggest that he's lying about his intentions with the Grey Council or his opposition to the Circle/Black Council.
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Ebenezer being an explicit exception to the laws doesn't mean he was lying about their nature.
Cops have the authority to shoot people in the course of their duties -- does that change the nature of laws prohibiting murder?
My point is, the "morally dark" things that have been attributed to him have had explicit or implicit good aims. His goal, demonstrated by his actions, is to protect humanity and uphold the Laws of Magic against abuse and corruption. When asked, he showed enormous regret and sadness that he did what he had to do.
I argue he has the Blackstaff because he is as close to a paragon of moral virtue as the Council has. You wouldn't want to give the Blackstaff to anyone else because otherwise you're inviting someone to abuse the power.
So Ebenezer has lied or omitted things. Taking into account everything we've seen of his character, though, that is not nearly enough to suggest that he's lying about his intentions with the Grey Council or his opposition to the Circle/Black Council.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/26n79z2k04VqTSv7i/giphy.gif)
Lets not also forget that before becoming Blackstaff, Eb was captain of the Wardens, and well known for taking down warlocks.
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Ebenezer being an explicit exception to the laws doesn't mean he was lying about their nature.
Cops have the authority to shoot people in the course of their duties -- does that change the nature of laws prohibiting murder?
My point is, the "morally dark" things that have been attributed to him have had explicit or implicit good aims. His goal, demonstrated by his actions, is to protect humanity and uphold the Laws of Magic against abuse and corruption. When asked, he showed enormous regret and sadness that he did what he had to do.
I argue he has the Blackstaff because he is as close to a paragon of moral virtue as the Council has. You wouldn't want to give the Blackstaff to anyone else because otherwise you're inviting someone to abuse the power.
So Ebenezer has lied or omitted things. Taking into account everything we've seen of his character, though, that is not nearly enough to suggest that he's lying about his intentions with the Grey Council or his opposition to the Circle/Black Council.
100% agree. 8)
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We have only Eb's word about the rationale and structure of the Grey Council. We know two other members but we don't know why they joined or what they hope to get out of the Grey Council.
Also, remember, there is no “black council” as such. Dresden made it up as an early working theory to explain the small pieces he could see of what turned out to be a much larger picture. For all intents and purposes, the grey council is the closest thing to a “black council” in the books. They even said so themselves when discussing it.
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They said they'd be blamed as the Black Council, which is not the same.
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I am, myself, seeing the Grey Council as basically the Blackstaff writ large: the guys able to bend the rules to get the job done, when the official rules prevent proper action.
As such, with Harry and Odin onboard, we can pretty much assume they are facets of Ebenezar's outlook on life - a good guy, who will not hesitate to take direct action or engage in shady business if necessary, but unlike Harry, that is not his only way of acting (and Harry's growing out of it).
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I am, myself, seeing the Grey Council as basically the Blackstaff writ large: the guys able to bend the rules to get the job done, when the official rules prevent proper action.
As such, with Harry and Odin onboard, we can pretty much assume they are facets of Ebenezar's outlook on life - a good guy, who will not hesitate to take direct action or engage in shady business if necessary, but unlike Harry, that is not his only way of acting (and Harry's growing out of it).
To a certain extent yes, But I do think that the Blackstaff will remain the only one they expect to actually DO any Black Magic (with the possible exceptions of Vadderung and Harry himself). There is still a very real Danger to their people if they started using the Black without the Staff's protection. But in all the ways that Council Law differs from the Universal lines of Light Vs Dark, they will enjoy more freedom.
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Ananda,
Also, remember, there is no “black council” as such. Dresden made it up as an early working theory to explain the small pieces he could see of what turned out to be a much larger picture. For all intents and purposes, the grey council is the closest thing to a “black council” in the books. They even said so themselves when discussing it.
Yes they did. At the beginning of Proven Guilty Eb mentions people who "share his concerns" while talking to Harry about the traitors on the Council (only one of whom was Peabody). I think there was organization before Harry was invited into it. Whether that organization is what Harry perceives as the "Black Council" we will have to see.
Again, the best story are those where the antagonists are not without cause.
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Quantus,
To a certain extent yes, But I do think that the Blackstaff will remain the only one they expect to actually DO any Black Magic (with the possible exceptions of Vadderung and Harry himself). There is still a very real Danger to their people if they started using the Black without the Staff's protection. But in all the ways that Council Law differs from the Universal lines of Light Vs Dark, they will enjoy more freedom.
Aren't we speculating that the "Blackstaff" protects Eb from the influences of Black Magic? Do we have any specific confirmation in universe that the Blackstaff has such a function? Further, if you have organization backing the [in personum] Blackstaff how hard is it to believe that one or more of them will go a step too far in "bending" the rules to work for the goals of that organization?
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Quantus,
Aren't we speculating that the "Blackstaff" protects Eb from the influences of Black Magic? Do we have any specific confirmation in universe that the Blackstaff has such a function? Further, if you have organization backing the [in personum] Blackstaff how hard is it to believe that one or more of them will go a step too far in "bending" the rules to work for the goals of that organization?
Yup, it's been confirmed by WOJ several times. The Speculation part is that the Blackstaff is the same item as Mother Winter's missing Walking Stick; on that one Jim has said the the Fandom has correctly guessed something about Mama Winter's stick, but did not actually confirm the specific theory.
2009 Independence signing:
Q: How is Eb protected from black magic?
A: The Blackstaff is a literal black staff. He hasn’t had it when we’ve seen him, but he has it and it protects him.
2010 Lee’s Summit signing:
Q: Can you tell us a little more about the black staff?
A: The staff keeps Eb from going crazy, mostly. Also, the White Council stole it from someone. And they really want it back.
2010 Dragon*Con @ ~1:45
When Eb does his "Laying of the Cattle move" at the major battle near the end of Changes, is that a power of the blackstaff?
The Blackstaff is what keeps that kind of thing from driving him insane and turning him into a giggling villain. Yah you don't go messing with black magic in the Dresden Files, it's very very bad for you. At the same time, Magic is something that happens because you truly believe that when you set out to do it that you should be able to do that sort of thing. That says a few things about Eb that really Harry hasn't run into in any other forum other than right there. Yah Poor guy, He's got a tough job.
@4:30
Does the blackstaff have any powers that relate to the dead?
Other than making people dead? Really, that's kind of the point [Crowd Laughs] Really but the staff itself what it really does is it keeps Eb sane while he's doing insane things. Lucky him, he gets to deal with a hideously guilty conscious and nightmares later, but that's better than later being like *Muahahahahahahahaha* Which is sort of the other option if your going to go around using magic like that.
2013 Wyrdcon Q&A
The Blackstaff is not sentient per se it’s just really, really, really powerful and tapped into like some serious elemental powers in the universe. But basically all it really is is insulation from using those powers.
As far as "How far non-protected persons would go", well, that is no different for any other wizard at any given time; Harry's done it more than once, but it's still frowned upon quite heavily. They will almost certainly flirt with the Grey edges of the Black, but I think they will be trying very hard to Not Cross them (which I assume it not much different from what Warden's have to wrestle with regularly).
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Ananda,
Yes they did. At the beginning of Proven Guilty Eb mentions people who "share his concerns" while talking to Harry about the traitors on the Council (only one of whom was Peabody). I think there was organization before Harry was invited into it. Whether that organization is what Harry perceives as the "Black Council" we will have to see.
Again, the best story are those where the antagonists are not without cause.
We've seen the things what Harry perceives as the "Black Council" have done, and they are inimical, incongruent and incompatible with what we know about the people involved in the Grey Council, specifically Ebenezer and Odin.
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inimical, incongruent and incompatible
Props for the assonance.
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Mr. Death,
We've seen the things what Harry perceives as the "Black Council" have done, and they are inimical, incongruent and incompatible with what we know about the people involved in the Grey Council, specifically Ebenezer and Odin.
Do we know why they were doing those things or are we assuming they did them only to further their own power. You are assuming no one on the Grey Council will take actions that we might see as "evil" for "the greater good".
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It doesn't really matter why. What they were doing, the methods they employed and the allies they worked with, are bad. Evil, even.
What greater good does murdering defenseless women serve? What greater good does kicking off a new ice age serve? What greater good does blowing up Demonreach and calling outsiders into the world serve?
It doesn't matter what lame justifications they might give. The things they are doing are evil and contrary to everything Harry, Odin and Ebenezer have been shown to believe in.
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Mr. Death,
Do we know why they were doing those things or are we assuming they did them only to further their own power. You are assuming no one on the Grey Council will take actions that we might see as "evil" for "the greater good".
Step outside of the story for a moment. Do you think Jim is the type of writer who at the end of the series it will turn out that the Black Council are actually good guys, and Dresden is on the wrong side?
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Step outside of the story for a moment. Do you think Jim is the type of writer who at the end of the series it will turn out that the Black Council are actually good guys, and Dresden is on the wrong side?
Honestly? Yes, 100%
“No one is an unjust villain in his own mind. Even - perhaps even especially - those who are the worst of us. Some of the cruelest tyrants in history were motivated by noble ideals, or made choices that they would call 'hard but necessary steps' for the good of their nation. We're all the hero of our own story.”
― Jim Butcher, Turn Coat
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Honestly? Yes, 100%
If I'm not mistake Jim was giving an example of how to write really good villains, and that their motives in their own minds are good. We know what motivates Harry, we got a pretty good idea about what motivates Eb (unless he's been lying), and others... Cowl, the Black Council, Nicoemus all have their motives, but Jim is also pretty good about drawing the distinction between good motives, and bad. Dresden, Eb, Murphy, Odin.... They aren't perfect, they are capable of doing nasty things but it's pretty clear (at least to me) that Jim has drawn the distinction about who is bad, and who is not in the Dresden Files. Unless what they have shown is pure deception in which case the character we thought we knew wasn't true in the beliefs they have displayed.
One example of Eb being dark side I have thought of is that one of the side effects of the Blackstaff (unknown to the user) is that it can create an alternate personality that comes to the surface from time to time... So Eb might be trying to track down Cowl to kill him when in reality he is Cowl and doesn't know it.
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Unless the world isn't ours, that we stole it and the outsiders want it back. Then yes, were in the wrong. :P
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If I'm not mistake Jim was giving an example of how to write really good villains, and that their motives in their own minds are good. We know what motivates Harry, we got a pretty good idea about what motivates Eb (unless he's been lying), and others... Cowl, the Black Council, Nicoemus all have their motives, but Jim is also pretty good about drawing the distinction between good motives, and bad. Dresden, Eb, Murphy, Odin.... They aren't perfect, they are capable of doing nasty things but it's pretty clear (at least to me) that Jim has drawn the distinction about who is bad, and who is not in the Dresden Files. Unless what they have shown is pure deception in which case the character we thought we knew wasn't true in the beliefs they have displayed.
One example of Eb being dark side I have thought of is that one of the side effects of the Blackstaff (unknown to the user) is that it can create an alternate personality that comes to the surface from time to time... So Eb might be trying to track down Cowl to kill him when in reality he is Cowl and doesn't know it.
Nah, the way I see it if he did make Harry the ultimate villain it would be in an entirely believable, sympathetic, and purely *mundane* cause. It would be a path that we walked with him ever step of the way with completely Good /intentions/, and /still/ managed to look back and see a freshly paved road to Hell. Basically I think the BAT is going to be a rabbit-hole of the Grey Line between black and white, and I could see Harry coming out either way. Not that I think the whole series will end with Harry destroying the world or whatever, but he may need to be stopped at the edge of Mt. Doom.
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Nah, the way I see it if he did make Harry the ultimate villain it would be in an entirely believable, sympathetic, and purely *mundane* cause. It would be a path that we walked with him ever step of the way with completely Good /intentions/, and /still/ managed to look back and see a freshly paved road to Hell. Basically I think the BAT is going to be a rabbit-hole of the Grey Line between black and white, and I could see Harry coming out either way. Not that I think the whole series will end with Harry destroying the world or whatever, but he may need to be stopped at the edge of Mt. Doom.
To each his own! Jim could pull a switcharoo on us but I don't think so. Maybe with a character but I don't think with Dresden or the grey council as a whole. I don't see it turning out that the Black Council is actually a group of wizard fighting for the greater good.
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Nah, the way I see it if he did make Harry the ultimate villain it would be in an entirely believable, sympathetic, and purely *mundane* cause. It would be a path that we walked with him ever step of the way with completely Good /intentions/, and /still/ managed to look back and see a freshly paved road to Hell. Basically I think the BAT is going to be a rabbit-hole of the Grey Line between black and white, and I could see Harry coming out either way. Not that I think the whole series will end with Harry destroying the world or whatever, but he may need to be stopped at the edge of Mt. Doom.
I love that idea. Absolutely love it.
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To each his own! Jim could pull a switcharoo on us but I don't think so. Maybe with a character but I don't think with Dresden or the grey council as a whole. I don't see it turning out that the Black Council is actually a group of wizard fighting for the greater good.
Oh, Im confident at least some of them are fighting for A Greater Good. Whether everyone will agree with either the "Greater" or the "Good" part of that, who knows. At the very least we do know of one (Kumori) that is doing it for idealistic reasons rather than selfish ones. Hell, I dont think he's BC but Id be willing to describe Nic that way.
My actual prediction is that the BAT will be a big, ugly exploration of the Grey of Magic and Morality, lots of hard choices, hard Sacrifices, and Good Intentions taking things Southward. And the whole time we'll be seeing Elaine, off on her own, doing things we dont understand and that might seem downright Villainous if viewed with a bit of circumstantial Suspicion (which is the default for at least half the fan-base when if comes to Elaine). Everything will point to her being a direct Counterpart to Harry, Summer to his Winter, the Other Starborn, etc etc. At the end it will come down to Trusting Elaine, despite all his allies telling him not to. Jim said once that it will end in such a way where it hinges on Harry being the guy at the end making the Choice (dont quote me on phrasing) such that anyone else in his position would go the wrong way with it, that Being Who and What harry is at that moment is what would make the difference. In light of that sentiment: I think it will come down to Trust and respecting Free Will: and the most difficult way to do that is often just having to Stand Aside and trust Somebody Else's plan.
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Oh, Im confident at least some of them are fighting for A Greater Good. Whether everyone will agree with either the "Greater" or the "Good" part of that, who knows. At the very least we do know of one (Kumori) that is doing it for idealistic reasons rather than selfish ones. Hell, I dont think he's BC but Id be willing to describe Nic that way.
My actual prediction is that the BAT will be a big, ugly exploration of the Grey of Magic and Morality, lots of hard choices, hard Sacrifices, and Good Intentions taking things Southward. And the whole time we'll be seeing Elaine, off on her own, doing things we dont understand and that might seem downright Villainous if viewed with a bit of circumstantial Suspicion (which is the default for at least half the fan-base when if comes to Elaine). Everything will point to her being a direct Counterpart to Harry, Summer to his Winter, the Other Starborn, etc etc. At the end it will come down to Trusting Elaine, despite all his allies telling him not to. Jim said once that it will end in such a way where it hinges on Harry being the guy at the end making the Choice (dont quote me on phrasing) such that anyone else in his position would go the wrong way with it, that Being Who and What harry is at that moment is what would make the difference. In light of that sentiment: I think it will come down to Trust and respecting Free Will: and the most difficult way to do that is often just having to Stand Aside and trust Somebody Else's plan.
When I said "fighting for the greater good", I meant they actually are. That most people would recognize it. I'm sure that some on the Bcouncil believe they are fighting for the greater good, but most people would disagree. I mean look at Outsiders. Anything you view as evil, they are. Pain, suffering, torment, cruelty... That defines them. No grey there... Black, and white. No middle ground. I see the Black Council as Jim's version of the Sith. I see Dresden as, and the grey Council as those trying to defeat the Sith.
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When I said "fighting for the greater good", I meant they actually are. That most people would recognize it. I'm sure that some on the Bcouncil believe they are fighting for the greater good, but most people would disagree.
That's the thing, I DO think everyone will agree with their Goals, just not their Methods. I dont think it will come down to Good Guys doing the right thing and Bad Guys being simply, Obviously Evil, Rather it will be two groups aiming at the same Goal but with wildly different plans for the execution. The Question will be "Do the Ends Justify the Means?" and the answer can slip from No to Yes reaaaalllly Easy when the stakes are "Saving All Reality".
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That's the thing, I DO think everyone will agree with their Goals, just not their Methods. I dont think it will come down to Good Guys doing the right thing and Bad Guys being simply, Obviously Evil, Rather it will be two groups aiming at the same Goal but with wildly different plans for the execution. The Question will be "Do the Ends Justify the Means?" and the answer can slip from No to Yes reaaaalllly Easy when the stakes are "Saving All Reality".
I dunno..... I think the goals of the Black Council are to bring back the Old Gods.... I don't think anyone outside of the Black Council would like their goals, and what the result would be.
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I think the goals of the Black Council are to bring back the Old Gods....
Admittedly the Straightforward goal of Bring Back the rule of the Old Gods would a Damn Hard Sell. If they were trying to take advantage of the Outsiders for a more cosmic goal like Overthrow Free Will, or Kill Death, or something then there is more room for Spin.
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Admittedly the Straightforward goal of Bring Back the rule of the Old Gods would a Damn Hard Sell. If they were trying to take advantage of the Outsiders for a more cosmic goal like Overthrow Free Will, or Kill Death, or something then there is more room for Spin.
If you listen to Kumori you get the impression their goals are good. The question is if she has been manipulated into believing nonsense or what. She talked about keeping people alive (hello Palpatine manipulating Anakin). However that usually means that the people they want to live will live, and to hell with the vast majority of people.
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Personally, my feeling on the Black Council's goal is to destroy the current order of the world to establish a new one. That usually implies that they'd be the ones at the top of that hierarchy. So less about bringing the Old Gods back and more about becoming Old Gods themselves.
I've also toyed with the idea that they're trying to help the Outsiders destroy this reality so that they can create a new one, specifically one that meets their idea of what it could or should be. In that reality, death can be impossible, for instance. But ultimately, there wouldn't be much free will in that reality, because there wouldn't be many meaningful choices, or consequences for the ones you could make.
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Admittedly the Straightforward goal of Bring Back the rule of the Old Gods would a Damn Hard Sell. If they were trying to take advantage of the Outsiders for a more cosmic goal like Overthrow Free Will, or Kill Death, or something then there is more room for Spin.
I find it likely the two are mutually exclusive in this case. Just from Cosmological studies, some of the DB convo with Kumori and an idea death or 'non-existence' is part of what actually makes the Gates happen. Balance.
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I find it likely the two are mutually exclusive in this case. Just from Cosmological studies, some of the DB convo with Kumori and an idea death or 'non-existence' is part of what actually makes the Gates happen. Balance.
More that I could see scenario's where the BC helped the Old Gods come to Power and it looked a lot like Stamping out Free Will for the bulk of the populace, and/or a complete redefinition of "The Rules" such that things like Life/Death, Time, Gods, and The Soul would theoretically be wildly different. "Under New Management" from the top down, so to speak.
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groinkick,
I dunno..... I think the goals of the Black Council are to bring back the Old Gods.... I don't think anyone outside of the Black Council would like their goals, and what the result would be.
If their goal is to bring back the Old Gods then they are mustache twirling villains. Those are so boring. I'd rather have someone with really good reasons for what they do and who just go a step too far. Killmonger in "The Black Panther" was a great villain. Hell, he convinced the hero he was right the hero just recognized he couldn't go as far as Killmonger wanted to go. That Killmonger would become what he hated.
That's a good villain.
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groinkick,
If their goal is to bring back the Old Gods then they are mustache twirling villains. Those are so boring. I'd rather have someone with really good reasons for what they do and who just go a step too far. Killmonger in "The Black Panther" was a great villain. Hell, he convinced the hero he was right the hero just recognized he couldn't go as far as Killmonger wanted to go. That Killmonger would become what he hated.
That's a good villain.
I haven’t seen that film, but I agree with that sentiment.
In these books, we have Deirdre who went from being a sort of two dimensional villain side kick character to selflessly sacrificing herself to “save the universe” in Skin Game. I highly doubt she’ll return, but it’s sort of my pet theory that she’ll come back with some new role down the road. People argue that Nic had ulterior motives, but she isn’t Nic. She was a true believer as her conversation with Dresden earlier in the book and Nic’s retort to her admission of love illustrated. She was a character with a lot of potential, I thought, having been both a victim and victimiser at the same time. It was a shame she was never really developed.
On the “black council” thing, I still contend there isn’t one. Does Dresden even talk about it anymore since his universe expanded? It’s been a couple of years now since I read the books, but I think he dropped that theory and it only lives on in forums now, like a revenant rattling chains.
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I haven’t seen that film, but I agree with that sentiment.
In these books, we have Deirdre who went from being a sort of two dimensional villain side kick character to selflessly sacrificing herself to “save the universe” in Skin Game. I highly doubt she’ll return, but it’s sort of my pet theory that she’ll come back with some new role down the road. People argue that Nic had ulterior motives, but she isn’t Nic. She was a true believer as her conversation with Dresden earlier in the book and Nic’s retort to her admission of love illustrated. She was a character with a lot of potential, I thought, having been both a victim and victimiser at the same time. It was a shame she was never really developed.
On the “black council” thing, I still contend there isn’t one. Does Dresden even talk about it anymore since his universe expanded? It’s been a couple of years now since I read the books, but I think he dropped that theory and it only lives on in forums now, like a revenant rattling chains.
Cowl is the one who mentions "The Circle," so it apparently is a thing in some capacity.
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That's the thing, I DO think everyone will agree with their Goals, just not their Methods. I dont think it will come down to Good Guys doing the right thing and Bad Guys being simply, Obviously Evil, Rather it will be two groups aiming at the same Goal but with wildly different plans for the execution. The Question will be "Do the Ends Justify the Means?" and the answer can slip from No to Yes reaaaalllly Easy when the stakes are "Saving All Reality".
How would they "Kill Death" ? Kumori said that they want to stop humans from dying from "natural causes" such as age and disease. That's not killing death, is it? Human bodies are frail, and they age, and they get diseased, to stop aging and disease you'll have to alter the human DNA into something else, by Butters' definition, a body that makes 100% perfect copies of it's dying cells. Change how the immune system works and probably change the fact that cells can get infected to begin with.
That doesn't seem like a reasonable goal to me, with plenty of capicity for messing up, besides, even if it did work the result may not be "Human".
Edit:
I haven’t seen that film, but I agree with that sentiment.
How about Law Abiding Citizen?
In these books, we have Deirdre who went from being a sort of two dimensional villain side kick character to selflessly sacrificing herself to “save the universe” in Skin Game. I highly doubt she’ll return, but it’s sort of my pet theory that she’ll come back with some new role down the road. People argue that Nic had ulterior motives, but she isn’t Nic. She was a true believer as her conversation with Dresden earlier in the book and Nic’s retort to her admission of love illustrated. She was a character with a lot of potential, I thought, having been both a victim and victimiser at the same time. It was a shame she was never really developed.
I agree, I loved Deirdre's developing character in Skin Game, and poor girl, she belongs to Hades now. Ouch.
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Mr. Death,
Cowl is the one who mentions "The Circle," so it apparently is a thing in some capacity.
Which is part of the reason why I wonder if, perhaps, there are multiple factions that may not be working in conjunction amongst those who Harry generically refers to as "the Black Council". A single unified enemy with a singular purpose and vision would be far easier to combat than various organizations that are infighting amongst themselves.
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In a way, yes -- the Circle appears to have its hands in several different organizations.
I think the Circle, however, isn't that big. Up to now, their MO has been to send an agent (or several) into an organization and manipulate it to a particular end. They don't seem to have the outright manpower of something like the White Council, so I imagine the Circle itself is relatively small.
So I think the Circle is a single, unified enemy working through various organizations by manipulating them.
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If nothing else, one of the biggest theoretical differences between the Black Council and Cowl's Cirlce is that the Black Council is, basically by definition, a theoretical group of Mortal Practitioners. Which Harry admitted was mostly his own short-sighted assumption that Mortal practitioners would be at the Center of things (yay council arrogance), whereas the Circle is an actually verified Group in that we've witness two members discussing it among themselves as compared to the purely theoretical pattern-based Black Council, and one that most likely has a wide variety of member races from Vampires to Fomor, etc. Possibly at least one god, if only for narrative Balance since the GC has one on the roster.
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I'm pretty sure the intent is that the Circle is what Harry had dubbed the Black Council before he really understood it.
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Cowl is the one who mentions "The Circle," so it apparently is a thing in some capacity.
Yes, but that’s not Dresden’s conception of a black council. He imagined it early on as being rather specific when he thought the “plot” so to say was something other than it is. Going on memory from a few years ago, he thought this bc was a cabal of wizards trying to take over the white council from within for their own reasons. There simply is no such agency as the scope is much larger than Dresden imagined. Yes, there is a threat to the wc, but it’s neither localised nor specific to them. It’s a multidimensional plot looking to nullify their universe, not an internal power struggle.
Just because there is some group named at some point doesn’t make them interchangeable. Unless Dresden keeps talking about a black council in new books, I’d say it’s an outdated concept.
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I keep thinking the Circle is actually Anti-Outsider. I see it as similar to the group that Maggie Sr. invited Eb to dinner to meet. You had a member of the White Court, Red Court and White Council confirmed. Arianna recognized the danger that her mad King put reality in and acted against him. Lord Raith was trying to get in on the Starborn action this time around. I expect that a KotBD(given Nic's reaction to Hellfire at AT and the saint line) was there too, maybe Mavra (a MM ally)as well. A group of people with power that have a vested interest in keeping reality and humanity going. But that group would allow very different sacrifices for that end than our Grey Council.
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Anti outsider....when the only known attendees were affiliated with outsiders.
I don't think that tracks
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Anti outsider....when the only known attendees were affiliated with outsiders.
I don't think that tracks
We are still assuming that the Circle, or some members within it, were responsible for summoning the Outsiders for the Red Court during Proven Guilty, and various other occasions. Someone taught the Striga how to summon He Who Walks Behind in Blood Rites. And Cowl himself, the only member of the Circle who identifies himself as such in White Night has been very, very strongly connected to Outsiders, both through the Athame/Nemesis infection, and the events of White Night, wherein we are told by Lash that Vittorio is possessed by an Outsider, who is an underling of Cowl's.
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We are still assuming that the Circle, or some members within it, were responsible for summoning the Outsiders for the Red Court during Proven Guilty, and various other occasions. Someone taught the Striga how to summon He Who Walks Behind in Blood Rites. And Cowl himself, the only member of the Circle who identifies himself as such in White Night has been very, very strongly connected to Outsiders, both through the Athame/Nemesis infection, and the events of White Night, wherein we are told by Lash that Vittorio is possessed by an Outsider, who is an underling of Cowl's.
I don't think we have to assume -- as you say, the evidence is piled up pretty high at this point.
In addition, we know for a fact that Cowl was in league with the Red Court, enough to get an invitation to Bianca's ascension and conspire with them to give Lea the Athame. So that puts him in cahoots with the Red Court and by extension with Arianna.
As for HWWB, we know that Lord Raith had Outsider-powered immunity to magic. He was the one who was behind the Striga plot. It seems pretty obvious to me that he is the reason HWWB is still kicking around after Harry killed/banished/incinerated him.
I don't see coincidence here. At the party were one guy who we know for a fact was in league with a major Outsider and a vampire who is only a degree or two of on-screen separation from the wizard we know was in league with the Red Court and summoning Outsiders.
I would not be surprised at all to learn that Cowl was either at or under discussion at that dinner party.
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I don't think we have to assume -- as you say, the evidence is piled up pretty high at this point.
In addition, we know for a fact that Cowl was in league with the Red Court, enough to get an invitation to Bianca's ascension and conspire with them to give Lea the Athame. So that puts him in cahoots with the Red Court and by extension with Arianna.
As for HWWB, we know that Lord Raith had Outsider-powered immunity to magic. He was the one who was behind the Striga plot. It seems pretty obvious to me that he is the reason HWWB is still kicking around after Harry killed/banished/incinerated him.
I don't see coincidence here. At the party were one guy who we know for a fact was in league with a major Outsider and a vampire who is only a degree or two of on-screen separation from the wizard we know was in league with the Red Court and summoning Outsiders.
I would not be surprised at all to learn that Cowl was either at or under discussion at that dinner party.
Yep, pretty much. What I don't get is what they have to gain from the Outsiders winning.
I've tossed around the idea that they might want to let the Outsiders in to actually destroy this reality, because there is some function by which they can reboot it, or create another one that matches their idea of an ideal reality. I don't know how they'd accomplish that.
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Actually there is WOJ that strongly states there is a group of wizards that feel constrained by white council and are rebelling against it. They don't want to be bound by rules, they want to act as they please. So, it follows that these wizards would group up to create a black council. This would be distinct though from an attempt to destroy the universe. I think there is a group of wizards who want the white council weakened so that they can practice how they want without feeling constrained by the WC. They want to rule this world, therefore it follows they want this world to exist.
I think Nemesis however would likely find it easier to compromise this group who is already practicing black magic than it would those who aren't.
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I think Nemesis however would likely find it easier to compromise this group who is already practicing black magic than it would those who aren't.
I'd find it a little boring if, for example, Cowl was just infected with Nemesis rather than a willing ally. And the idea is that they'd rule a world that they'd somehow create—a better one (in their opinion). I want there to be a reason they're working with the Outsiders beyond Nemesis.
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Well I think they want the Outsiders assistance to shake things up so that they then can emerge on top. I don't think they want to destroy this world which is what the Outsiders want. I want it to be both. They are dealing with Outsiders on their own free will but are also infected by Nemesis, which is what Maeve was ultimately doing.
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I see two possible sides to it, and they are not paramutual.
On the one side, I think it possible and even likely that some of the leaders of the Circle/BC/Cowl&Co like Cowl are entirely willing conspirators, but I dont need all their membership to be similarly informed. Just like with Nic and the like the Denarians, not all have to be equal partners in control, but those that /are/ will have more Power and/or Agency to enact their schemes. Separately, I am fully in the camp that thinks the actual supernatural element of the Black Magic taint is an accumulation of incremental Outsider Taint (may or may not be the same entity behind the fae Nemesis Taint we've seen) caused by a Mortal willfully Choosing to twist Magic back on itself in one of the 7 most extreme ways, leading to tiny fractures in reality that allow Outsider influence to seep in. This mostly hinges on the connection between the Blackstaff's functional protection and it's theorized roots in the Winter Court