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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: raidem on April 05, 2018, 03:28:30 PM
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We have Griffyn612 theory that Mac is a transubstantiated Raphael. Considering the same evidence that Gryffyn puts forth for Mac to be Raphael, I'll put forth for him being God.
So, do we have evidence that precludes Mac from being God? What does it mean to be God within the Dresdenverse. Definition of DF God: ?.
We know that Mac creates "God's brew". And He is often described as downright Angelic.
If Mac is indeed some projection of God, then it makes more sense that he was more of a target in Cold Days with the Outsider attack on Demonreach than we believed. And Harry brought him there. Mac couldn't compromise mortal free will, therefore he followed. The attack on Demonreach with Mac upon the island then isn't possibly as much about destroying the island, releasing the sleepers, etc but doing away with God's projection within this reality. I don't think it would really 'hurt' God so much but it could cause a wrinkle in the balance of power for a moment. We now know per WOJ that God has commanded Outsiders to remain outside of Creation, outside of the Sandbox he has given us. However, he has given creation this sandbox, given mortals free will, so if we are going to wreck this creation by bringing in the void (Outsiders), then that is on us.
A: Almighty isn't really about determining the order of the universe. He isn't a GM. He made us a sandbox game and then let us decide how to play it, and mod it.
Now He's already told those forces, 'stay out of my sandbox' and they do. But He's also gives us the sandbox. And if we want to invite them in to screw it all up, well. The void is still there. Waiting.
I think even if God has settled on allowing Us to choose our Fate, I wouldn't put it past him to place a transubstantiated form in play of himself. And who better for this form to be than a bartender making God's brew, interacting with a Starborn that will likely be the deciding factor in the Fate of the Universe/Multiverse.
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Is there a good thread on Mac out there that I can borrow from. I don't feel like going through and gathering all the heavenly references to Mac or his brew. I found one. Just linked a prior thread that hit upon much of the discussion.
Topic: Oh No! Another Mac WAG! (Read 1569 times)
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,49643.15.html
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Check out this thread for New WOJ's on God, Lucifer, and the argument between the two.
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,51089.0.html
These WOJ's would have relevance to Mac should he be a projection/transubstantiated form of God.
Essentially, God considers his job done with respect to having given us the sandbox of creation. It is up to us to keep it. So, given this, I think God sees his role limited with respect to Outsiders, he has already commanded them to remain outside of the Sandbox but he has given us free will so if mortals open up a way for Outsiders to come in that is on us. I could see God step in and take a transubstantiated form in pivotal times to take actions that he wouldn't be able to take as God.
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Mac is not the White God. Mac is a retired member of Merlin's inner circle. He's the Beeromancer of the group. Used to be a big partier, but now just likes to watch others have fun.
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I don't see it. That maenad in the short story really put one over on Mac. It's one thing for him to respect mortal free will, but I don't see Mac letting a supernatural being mess with him like that if he had omniscience and omnipotence going for him.
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Sharkface's reaction seemed less in line with meeting a remnant of TWG. I would expect more victory or gloating, less annoyance. Plus Mab's interaction with him on the island. And the whole "I'm out," thing doesn't seem possible for TWG since it is everything. IDK.
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Sharkface's reaction seemed less in line with meeting a remnant of TWG. I would expect more victory or gloating, less annoyance. Plus Mab's interaction with him on the island. And the whole "I'm out," thing doesn't seem possible for TWG since it is everything. IDK.
Same. Im not saying there arent more people like Nic that would love the chance to literally tweak God's nose, but the scenes we've had with people who know his deal just dont seem to fit right.
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Sorta, yes, and definitely not...
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Bluntly, I don't think so. Nor do I think he's Raphael.
I think he's Frankenstein's monster, a functionally immortal mortal who used to work at the Outer Gates as an assistant to the previous Gatekeeper because, due to his state, he is incorruptible.
Kidding. I don't know what he is. But I really, really doubt he's part of any Judeo-Christian hierarchy, TWG or otherwise.
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No.
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Mac being TWG would be kinda boring. It least it would be to me.
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Well the way it could work for me is the Corwin=God angle where God really isn't TWG either. He was just some entity in another work of fiction, the amberverse, that ended up creating a twinned multiverse. I just then place this God construct over Corwin, and have him participating in things as Mac.
Now that Sid there clearly is a God vs. Lucifer argument going on. So it isn't merely maneuvered, but I like this take because it downplays the religious connotations with him and makes h ok m into a dresden files being, not real life.
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I don't think Mac is God because I think he'd be more active in the Denarian story line. It would be very subtle, of course. But he seems more involved with the Sidhe, Outsiders, and Demonreach possibly.
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Seems unlikely. Mac has never once mentioned skee ball.
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I don't think Mac is God because I think he'd be more active in the Denarian story line. It would be very subtle, of course. But he seems more involved with the Sidhe, Outsiders, and Demonreach possibly.
That could mean they have orders to stay away too though... God and Lucifer want the Sandbox intact, His 'out' being respected by Denarians even should say WORLDS about his affiliations...
Id insist he is one of the angels whose Graces power the swords. Most likely the sword of love, cause of the Arthur connotations in his DR visit.
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That could mean they have orders to stay away too though... God and Lucifer want the Sandbox intact, His 'out' being respected by Denarians even should say WORLDS about his affiliations...
Id insist he is one of the angels whose Graces power the swords. Most likely the sword of love, cause of the Arthur connotations in his DR visit.
I could buy him actually being King Arthur (or maybe Gawain?) who found the Grail and drank from it, before ceding it to Hades. I do think he's mortal, in the sense that he was a regular (but important) guy, he's just got this healing thing that happens to him when he's unconscious. Not full immortality, more like rapid reconstruction. He's "Out" because he's seen it all, and all of his efforts to preserve the world looked like a bunch of nothing when he saw the Outer Gates.
My only doubts concern his divinity. Pretty much anything else I could buy.
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Hey. In the Amberverse, Corwin's son Merlin best friend Luke is likely one of the ones to go into the newly created multiverse. So, if Corwin=God=Mac in Dresdenverse, Merlin could possibly be Corwin's son. But the interesting one is Luke. If he was one of the earliest to enter the newly created multiverse, he could turn out to be Lucifer. Luke vs Lucifer.
Anyways, I do like the idea of taking Ambers multiverse that Corwin created and was never explored or touched due to the Author's death, and then have Jim use this untouched multiverse as a foundation for the Dresdenverse. It allows Jim to hide these Amber characters behind these mythological/religious/cultural characters.
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I don't think Mac is God because I think he'd be more active in the Denarian story line. It would be very subtle, of course. But he seems more involved with the Sidhe, Outsiders, and Demonreach possibly.
Involvement with the Sidhe fits the Manannan Mac Lir theory well.
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We have precedence in Abrahamic religions that God does and can walk the Earth, so it isn't entirely out of reason for God to walk on Earth in Dresden Files. So, it is plausible for Mac to be a disguised God. Even if Mac is God, he may have multiple disguises such that not even Vadderung or Mab know Mac is God, they may believe him to be something else, just another of other masks God uses when walking the Earth.
At this point, without explanation, we read Genesis (32:24-25):
… a man wrestled with [Jacob] till daybreak. When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob’s hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man.
We realize that Jacob was wrestling with God in a way that took Jacob to the limits of his strength – and beyond.
WEAKNESS TO BLESSING
In this crisis, Jacob’s strength is broken. All Jacob can do is hold on: “I will not let you go unless you bless me” (32:26). He can no longer grasp and take; he can only receive.
Jacob receives a new name and blessing (32:27-29). His new identity is now “Israel.” The meaning of this name is somewhat difficult to discern, but it probably means God prevails; he struggles with God; or God perseveres.
Bruce Waltke writes:
… at daybreak [Jacob’s] antagonist changes his name, and Jacob comprehends that the man is none other than God. Finally, as the sun rises above him (32:31), he walks away, better, limps away, a new man.
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I can buy Jim being inspired by the Amber Chronicles, or using some ideas based on them, but there is zero chance that the Dresden Files is literally connected to another series altogether, for the same reasons that the Hulk won't actually show up, even if he has Hercules's mantle.
Dresden, the Cinder Spires, and Alera—the three series Jim actually has intellectual property rights for—maybe, but definitely not something that he doesn't own. Speculation in that direction is a dead end.
You can draw as many parallels as you like, and that's perfectly valid, but Corwin is not going to show up in the Dresden Files any more than Cyclops.
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I can buy Jim being inspired by the Amber Chronicles, or using some ideas based on them, but there is zero chance that the Dresden Files is literally connected to another series altogether, for the same reasons that the Hulk won't actually show up, even if he has Hercules's mantle.
Dresden, the Cinder Spires, and Alera—the three series Jim actually has intellectual property rights for—maybe, but definitely not something that he doesn't own. Speculation in that direction is a dead end.
You can draw as many parallels as you like, and that's perfectly valid, but Corwin is not going to show up in the Dresden Files any more than Cyclops.
exactamundo.
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You can draw as many parallels as you like, and that's perfectly valid, but Corwin is not going to show up in the Dresden Files any more than Cyclops.
Corwin, Nevada already shows up in the Dresden Files after Harry, Susan go through the Ways to reach the Reds wharehouse in Changes and find themselves at a ghost town. Jim has admitted he borrowed travel through the Ways from Amber, so we already have "Corwin" showing up in Dresden Files, but as a place instead of a person. This "Corwin" is also a place Maggie Sr. visited.
As to other sources, the Fetches impersonate wellknown scary movie characters, we have references to Star Wars and Star Trek, we are going to have a Book titled after a Star Trek episode "Mirror Mirror". I wouldn't be to sure that we won't have "Corwin" show up without him necessarily being named as such.
Now, as far as Luke=Lucifer goes, or Merlin son of Corwin, son of 'God', it was just an longshot idea. I do like the idea though that Jim is using some templates from Amber in his DF creations, though these templates may be better attributed to AmberMush rather than the Amber Chronicles as AmberMush has content that isn't strictly copyrighted but that is player creations.
“The hallway on the other side is full of dangerous levels of methane and carbon monoxide, among other gases. The mixture appears to be volatile, and in the other side you can never be sure exactly which energies might or might not trigger an explosion. Forty-two walking steps to the far end, which opens on a ridge outside Corwin, Nevada.” There was a moment of silence, and then the same voice began to speak again, panting, shaking, and out of breath. “Notation: The hallway is not entirely abandoned. Something tried to grab me as I came through.” She coughed several times. “Notation secundus: Don’t wear a dress the next time you need to go to Corwin, dummy. Some farmer’s going to get a show.”
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Things like that are homages, references, or in-jokes, and a reference to a town called "Corwin" is not a connection any more than dropping a line from "They Live" in the movie theater in Proven Guilty was. It's more than a long shot. It's a legal problem that Jim cannot (and wouldn't want to) overcome.
Like I said, you can draw tons of parallels between Amber and the Dresden Files—you might even be able to use those parallels to predict future events—but there isn't a crossover. There legally can't be.
Maybe something like what you're suggesting happened, and God in the Dresden Files is just the guy who made this universe. But he won't be Corwin, or any character from the Amber Chronicles, the Marvel or DC Universes, or Star Trek. He or she (let's face it, with the DF and Harry's luck, God's probably a female, if she has a gender at all) will be an original creation made by Jim for the Dresden Files.
Assuming Jim can and has the desire to overcome the intellectual property issues surrounding this, if you're right, it wouldn't make sense. Even importing a character Jim created himself in AmberMUSH wouldn't fit with the Dresden Files's existing canon. It would be foolish to even try to do so, because it would require far, far more effort to justify than to make something new, and offers absolutely nothing of value to the vast majority of his readers, who have no idea what AmberMUSH is. Cameos are supposed to make a significant cross-section of your fanbase squeal in delight, like if Jayne Cobb showed up in Dollhouse. And honestly, making a character from another series altogether God would just confuse or infuriate the vast, overwhelming, near-total majority of people reading the book. Are we to be expected to read an entirely different book series by a different author with a different publisher in order to understand the backstory for a critically important character?
Please don't take this as a personal attack; it's not. I just think that theorizing like this isn't worth it.
On the other hand, I invite you to write fanfiction about this to your heart's content; I'll read it.
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I just think that theorizing like this isn't worth it.
I disagree and enjoy it.
The Corwin/God thought is only one unlikely but possible comparison of Amber/Dresden Files. There are many more plausible scenarios in which a Corwin/nonGod persona sets up as a Barkeep in Chicago. This isn't Mac as God, but something like a Corwin character.
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I just think that theorizing like this isn't worth it.
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If we stopped theorizing what will be left of the forum? Nothing left to talk about.
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The metaphor can only be stretched soooo far before it's beating a dead horse.
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I disagree and enjoy it.
Okay. You do you.
If we stopped theorizing what will be left of the forum? Nothing left to talk about.
I didn't say to stop theorizing. I meant that this type of theorizing (crossovers between totally different, separate intellectual properties with zero chance of ever happening within the series) isn't particularly useful or enlightening. Like I said, parallels are perfectly fine, useful to others, and can be rather enlightening, but that's different from building hypotheses based on a different author's character showing up within the story's main canon.
I might be able to buy a crossover short story, on the other hand, but not the core of the Dresden Files novels.
And Raidem, I promise you, if this winds up being true, I will be the first person in line getting ready to kiss your ring. If you don't happen to have a ring, I will provide a particularly fancy one.
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I pursue this line of inquiry for multiple reasons, most of it is just to look at the series through another lens like I have by adopting the Murphy=Mab theory. I added further intrigue into the series by postulating a familial relationship between Harry, Murphy, and Marcone with Marcone's origin based in some future. Further adding to the complex timeline, I proposed a Nicodemus whose descendants include Harry.
Now, after I pretty much added enough complexity within Dresden Files for the purposes of my rereads, I started looking elsewhere at influences upon Jim when he was creating the series and see if I could incorporate elements of them into the series. So that is what I'm doing. I don't have a DF book to read so I do this in the meantime.
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I didn't say to stop theorizing. I meant that this type of theorizing (crossovers between totally different, separate intellectual properties with zero chance of ever happening within the series) isn't particularly useful or enlightening. Like I said, parallels are perfectly fine, useful to others, and can be rather enlightening, but that's different from building hypotheses based on a different author's character showing up within the story's main canon.
I'm with you there. I like the sandbox Butcher has made, and while there are cool things in other authors' playgrounds, adding them into this sandbox feels too cluttered and confusing. It also dilutes the concentrated Dresdenium too much for me. Now, drawing parallels based on templates and mechanics is cool, whether its comparing the magic system with another universe or inferring who might do what based on mythology, but at the end of the day, I hope to see Butcher come up with something unique. And so far he has. Sure, there are references to things out the wazoo, but everything has the distinctive seal of Dresden's originality on it. A seal that looks an awful lot like a scorch mark and smells both like sulfur and frost, somehow.
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I didn't say to stop theorizing. I meant that this type of theorizing (crossovers between totally different, separate intellectual properties with zero chance of ever happening within the series)
Well the thing is, Jim has flat out said he will take an idea from somewhere else and put a new coat of paint on it. For example the the Zerg from StarCraft and the Codex series. He took them, gave them a new coat of paint and used them. I'm not saying that any theory in particular is correct, but it's not outside the realm of possibility that you can connect dots within the dresdenverse based on another story if Jim used it for inspiration.
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Things like that are homages, references, or in-jokes, and a reference to a town called "Corwin" is not a connection any more than dropping a line from "They Live" in the movie theater in Proven Guilty was. It's more than a long shot. It's a legal problem that Jim cannot (and wouldn't want to) overcome.
Supernatural had a reference mention of a clued cop in Chicago named Murphy. The Alex Verus series mentioned rumors of a guy in Chicago who flouted magical secrecy by advertising in the phone book.
These are inside jokes for the fans, raidem, not hints that all the franchises are in a common universe.
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Well the thing is, Jim has flat out said he will take an idea from somewhere else and put a new coat of paint on it. For example the the Zerg from StarCraft and the Codex series. He took them, gave them a new coat of paint and used them.
Yeah, but that doesn't actually make them the Zerg. The Xel Naga are not there hanging out somewhere in the background of the Alera stories waiting to do horrible things to people.
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It becomes a matter of respect at some point, i'm quite certain Jim does not want people directly comparing his to others to the point of proof=copyright infringement possibility. We have the inability to see and pass it on to ppl more worried about 'their theories' because they've been attacked for them so many times the it's scabbed over into an autoresponse that their theories are not only valid, but should be being made in such a format.
Wag about DF all you want, show where Jim got his inspiration, pls quit saying they are one in the same, or implying more. It's quite disrespectful. (and I loath the idea of having to ask someone vaguely connected to Jim to shut you down.... but I just might... more so because you disrespected my thread because I didn't want to collaborate and then proceeded to repeated talk about your own disconnected theories in attempt to annoy me, despite having no response to your original post, a convo with yourself... and less than a week later are no longer 'depressed' or annoyed in life but willfully producing new idea's. Seems you succeeded in annoying me, here's my response(which also does nothing to invalidate my own facts and argument, on the contrary, it simply drives me to make it))
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It becomes a matter of respect at some point, i'm quite certain Jim does not want people directly comparing his to others to the point of proof=copyright infringement possibility.
You mean like him saying Mirror Mirror is from an episode of Star Trek that has the same exact title? Like I said before, if you put your own spin on something you aren't violating a copyright issue.
Almost every story ever written is based on some story the author has read or heard about. There hasn't been a truly original story in probably thousands of years.
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You mean like him saying Mirror Mirror is from an episode of Star Trek that has the same exact title? Like I said before, if you put your own spin on something you aren't violating a copyright issue.
Almost every story ever written is based on some story the author has read or heard about. There hasn't been a truly original story in probably thousands of years.
Actually, if Star Trek wanted to push, they might be able to stir up trouble, however the name itself isn't copywrite. Also why Jim has avoided quite a few DnD monsters despite most being under an open umbrella because one group could later claim rights if they so choose. Now if They could viably prove Jim was taking from their revenue/base by putting out something of the exact same nature then yea, Look at fortnite being sued by PubG, they aren't the same, but that one little aspect was Battle royale enough to force Fortnite to shut down soon.
Star trek being sci-fi and a show it's kinda hard to say any such thing, but a book on fantasy where in Merlin archetypes are prevalent? Yea.... absolutely. Ya'll seem to forget this is America and they can choose to sue over the slightest provocation regardless of an assured victory. You seem to forget the guy who patented the motor vehicle and waited 20 years until they were being produced to press the patent, which caused ever single competitor to fold and give royalties except Henry Ford whose work helped overturn said patent.... After a lengthy legal battle that would in our case, basically kill the DF.
*compare it to mythology, compare it to works already in the public domain like Shakespeare. Stop saying it's a rip off of protected works before someone decides to take it seriously in the wrong way.
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I think you guys are making copyright infringement too easy to do with respect to literary works. And no one said "it's a rip off of protected works," Jonas.
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I think you guys are making copyright infringement too easy to do with respect to literary works. And no one said "it's a rip off of protected works," Jonas.
What do you think "The whole of the Dresden Files is spun off of the second Pattern Corwin drew" is?
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That isn't copyright infringement, and it is equally valid to say that DF is it's own multiverse but since Jim drew inspiration from Amber and the Author's death left the Corwin multiverse untouched I like to think Jim has thought about it a time or two. Are you saying he has not once thought about Corwin's multiverse? He plays/played AmberMush where that multiverse has significant importance. And Jim has already stated he has borrowed traveling in the NeverNever from Amber's traveling in the multiverse. I also find it highly likely since he has played AmberMush that he has read Amber Chronicles which once again exposed him to Corwin's untouched multiverse.
"The whole of the Dresden Files is spun off of the second Pattern Corwin drew
I also didn't say that. I said one could fit the DF multiverse as being the untouched multiverse mentioned in Amber but there is so much more to the Dresden Files that isn't part of Amber. Jim likes to describe his Dresdenverse as being large enough to fit Star Wars, Star Trek, Xmen, Etc. Yet you guys can't seem to understand that there was an author, Roger Zelazny, who set up his multiverse like this prior to Jim. In Amber, a Amberite could travel to anything they could imagine, so if they can imagine a Dresdenverse they would be able to visit it. According to Jim, Star Wars can exist in the Dresdenverse without copyright infringement, likewise I say Dresdenverse can be said to exist in Amberverse without copyright infringement. These are aspects of a HUGE multiverse where you don't have to write them, they already exist as written. You just make the suggestion that they are included or reacheable in your multiverse and let the fans imagination fill in the blanks.
I'm seeing that your arguments are essentially boiling down to badly misrepresenting what I've said. You are putting words in my mouth, that I didn't say to cast me in a negative like. And, you haven't read Amber series so you most likely don't know what you are talking about with regard to Amber and its potential influences on Jim. And Fred, Iago, has basically stated that Jim has been influenced by Amber; he even sees some Amber influences in some of the white court vampires. Jim also admitted to being influenced by Amber and having played AmberMUSH.
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I haven't read the Amber series? Then which ten books did I literally just finish reading a few days ago?
Yes. Jim was influenced by Amber. Just as he was influenced by the Zerg. That doesn't make them the exact same thing. There's a difference between "in a theoretically infinite multiverse anything is possible" and "The actual characters are hanging around, and Mac is Corwin." YOU, no I, were the one who tried to spin this into being based on the second Pattern. That's a bit more than an expansive multiverse, you're bringing in very specific aspects of the other story.
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I haven't read the Amber series? Then which ten books did I literally just finish reading a few days ago?
And the majority of you or others arguments have been from time periods in which you haven't read the books so the jist of the statement stands with the exception for most recent reading.
I stand by my Wag's, that Mac and Dresdenverse is inspired by Corwin and Corwin's untouched Pattern.
Again, Jim CHOSE to include a nod to Corwin by choosing "Corwin, Nevada" and having it a destination in a traveling trip through the nevernever which Jim has admitted to borrowing from Amber in which Corwin is the main protagonist. So, we already know Corwin's name is in play. Maggie Sr. traveled to Corwin, Nevada. She recorded the travel on the gem given to Harry. The Reds made their wharehouse near Corwin, Nevada.
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Again, Jim CHOSE to include a nod to Corwin by choosing "Corwin, Nevada" and having it a destination in a traveling trip through the nevernever which Jim has admitted to borrowing from Amber in which Corwin is the main protagonist. So, we already know Corwin's name is in play. Maggie Sr. traveled to Corwin, Nevada. She recorded the travel on the gem given to Harry. The Reds made their wharehouse near Corwin, Nevada.
Sounds like a nod to me. He said he borrowed that travel sequence from Amber. Fans of Amber who read Dresden might notice the similarities, and think "Hmm, seems familiar. I wonder if he's read the - hey, this is in Corwin! Haha! He has good taste in books." To me, that sounds like the extent of the homage. No Mac/Corwin connection needed. However, I haven't read Amber, so there could be other similarities I'm missing.
While I disagree with you on the shared universe theory (or shared multiverse, whatever), it's still legitimate speculation. There's been talk of copyright infringement in this thread, but the thing is Mr. Butcher could do it in a way that is infringing or in a way that isn't. Most of this would depend on how he names things. If Mac is ever called Corwin in the series, and his relationship to the universe is described as you specified, that would be infringing. Like if he actually had the character Darth Vader appear as an antagonist, named as such. If Mac is never named as such, however, and his oversight of the universe is merely alluded to, it becomes a non-issue, even if that's exactly what Mr. Butcher had in mind. Look at the Alien in Proven Guilty. It's not really an Alien if you read the text literally, but it's worded in such a way that anyone who knows about Xenomorphs will squee with delight. Or terror. Ultimately, though, copyright is a legal battle over who gets to have money from what idea. The Dresdenverse is focused on the idea of Harry Dresden, not Mac, so I think we're okay.
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Sounds like a nod to me. He said he borrowed that travel sequence from Amber. Fans of Amber who read Dresden might notice the similarities, and think "Hmm, seems familiar. I wonder if he's read the - hey, this is in Corwin! Haha! He has good taste in books." To me, that sounds like the extent of the homage. No Mac/Corwin connection needed. However, I haven't read Amber, so there could be other similarities I'm missing.
They don't look alike. In AmberMush, not Amber, there exists a Worlds End Bar that could be rather similar to Mac's bar. Both have many Mirrors (portals) and teh World Ends Bar is like a multiversal hubway.
Going with a different line of thinking, Hey, maybe Jim's character in AmberMush is who becomes Mac in Dresdenfiles. Then it isn't Corwin but a character within AmberMush that makes it from Amberverse into Dresdenverse. Jim's character was Bassor. So in this Wag, Mac would be Bassor.
As I recall it when Jim was working on Semiautomagic (eventually renamed Storm Front), he was a fan of the Anita Blake novels, was playing Amber Diceless online via AmberMUSH (along with me), and so on. The lines of influence may trace more directly to that stuff than the World of Darkness. The White Court vampires, after all, are pretty closely modeled on a house of Chaos we both played in on AmberMUSH called Thanlis. Their blood was a little more silver than pale pink, and they could shapeshift like any Chaosian could, but every time the WCVs pop up in the novels I see shades of Bassor (Jim's character) and Mitre (mine) all over 'em.
I agree with the following and it better states where I'm going with things.
If Mac is never named as such, however, and his oversight of the universe is merely alluded to, it becomes a non-issue, even if that's exactly what Mr. Butcher had in mind. Look at the Alien in Proven Guilty. It's not really an Alien if you read the text literally, but it's worded in such a way that anyone who knows about Xenomorphs will squee with delight. Or terror. Ultimately, though, copyright is a legal battle over who gets to have money from what idea. The Dresdenverse is focused on the idea of Harry Dresden, not Mac, so I think we're okay.
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And the majority of you or others arguments have been from time periods in which you haven't read the books so the jist of the statement stands with the exception for most recent reading.
OR, maybe, and hear me out.
I actually had read the Amber Chronicles long before Jim even started writing the Dresden Files, and there's some other reason I'm arguing with you. Some reason that's not based on my not knowing the Amber series.
But what could that possibly be?
It's basically the difference between the White Court being based off one of the Ways Jim used, and them being literal shapeshifters from another reality entirely. The difference between having a multiverse, and having that multiverse actually being THE spectrum of Order and Chaos (and then later more Order).
And if I'm making things up to make you look bad, and you don't actually mean it that literally, why did you bring up the second Pattern as the origin at all?
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The argument about reading the Amber series is tangential at this point. I stand by my and others belief that it influenced Jim. I stand by my belief that Jim could incorporate some crossover characters but not named that from Amber as a nod to Zelazny. I have wild ass guesses that have Mac as one of these crossover characters in the form of a copy of Corwin.
Is this some grave sin I have committed?
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I don't mean it that literally, except that it could be seen as such. That corwin's suggested appearance, or someone like him that did something similar, hints that this multiverse origin may tie into something ofher. I in my wags argue it is, but it is extremely likely we will never get confirmation but only indirect circumstantial evidence like I've said before of having corwin appear in the story. Should that happen then we know that somewhere there is an untouched multiverse from amber. Actually, per woj that in the dresdenverse one could find star wars or Jedi then it follows one can find Amber and the created corwin pattern. So it seems to me that the corwin pattern is likely to already exist within dresdenverse somewhere. My question then is asking if the dresdenverse was derived from it.
And for the record, you weren't the main target of who I was suggesting as not having read amber series. That would be Jonas.
Ooh, how about this instead, Mac is Robert zelazny, or Jim Butcher for that matter. Either fits the same role, they each are creating a multiverse and so are Gods of it. And again, in the case of Jim Butcher, having Mac be one of Jim's playing characters could fit the same role too.
It's basically the difference between the White Court being based off one of the Ways Jim used, and them being literal shapeshifters from another reality entirely.
I didn't say that they were. This was Iago's comment that you are badly interpreting:
As I recall it when Jim was working on Semiautomagic (eventually renamed Storm Front), he was a fan of the Anita Blake novels, was playing Amber Diceless online via AmberMUSH (along with me), and so on. The lines of influence may trace more directly to that stuff than the World of Darkness. The White Court vampires, after all, are pretty closely modeled on a house of Chaos we both played in on AmberMUSH called Thanlis. Their blood was a little more silver than pale pink, and they could shapeshift like any Chaosian could, but every time the WCVs pop up in the novels I see shades of Bassor (Jim's character) and Mitre (mine) all over 'em.
Iago says he sees "shades of Thanlis" all over WCV, that isn't literal shapeshifters.
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While I still disagree entirely with your premise (that this universe is caused by the second Pattern) I will admit that in an infinite enough universe (as in Amber) it's possible for there to be a Pattern out there. Though I don't think it's THE Pattern, because that is counter to the cosmology of the Dresden Files as we know it. You can only have one real true origin of everything.
That said, in the interest of fairness, I'd point out that Zelazny did insert himself into the Chronicles of Amber as a minor character. (The guard on the way to the Pattern chamber.)
That said, I disagree with the idea of a truly infinite multiverse that may have Spider-Man or whatnot in it. But that is because it seems to me that new universes are caused by a free will Choice made by a person, and no Choice a person can make is going to alter the rules of reality enough to make a radioactive spider give someone superpowers and not just make them very sick.
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That said, in the interest of fairness, I'd point out that Zelazny did insert himself into the Chronicles of Amber as a minor character. (The guard on the way to the Pattern chamber.)
YAY. You did read it. He was also writing his own book. This would be another Zelazny like thing to do, Jim writing himself into the story. :)
Though it isn't unique to him of course.
Another thing that can be fitted with the Amber story is the other destroyed Patterns Merlin finds out exists. He is able to restore one of them, but I think there were like 8 of them. This could be similar to how many Universes that ended up destroyed by Outsiders, that Uriel ended up pulling the plug on.
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YAY. You did read it. He was also writing his own book. This would be another Zelazny like thing to do, Jim writing himself into the story. :)
Though it isn't unique to him of course.
The biggest example I can think of was Stephen King writing himself a big role in the Dark Tower series. From my understanding with fans it was hit or miss. Me personally, I loved it. I thought it was well done and it worked so well to tie this story to him as his magnus opus.
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The biggest example I can think of was Stephen King writing himself a big role in the Dark Tower series. From my understanding with fans it was hit or miss. Me personally, I loved it. I thought it was well done and it worked so well to tie this story to him as his magnus opus.
His main appearances were acceptable, but the Id/Ego/Superego Stephen King Triplets was a bridge too far.
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yes I agree with that. It was a stretch.
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Ooh, how about this instead, Mac is Robert zelazny, or Jim Butcher for that matter. Either fits the same role, they each are creating a multiverse and so are Gods of it. And again, in the case of Jim Butcher, having Mac be one of Jim's playing characters could fit the same role too.
Hmm. I could see him pulling an Alfred Hitchcock/Peter Jackson and making himself appear as a cameo. Not sure where, though. Mac doesn't seem enough like what little I know about Mr. Butcher. I would imagine someone snarkier, and more into either a martial art or a game-type pastime.
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Hey.
What about “Bring it, Darth Bathrobe!”
Jim and his friends are playing a LARP within Dresdenverse.
We do have a WOJ that says if Harry ever met Jim, Harry would punch Jim. So maybe Harry will end up punching Darth Bathrobe. :)
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agatha christie wrote a parody of herself in the Hercule Poroit serries, Ariadne Oliver. it's a comic character she inflicted on her hero.
is mac A god, maybe. is he THE God? nope.
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I never argued Mac is God in the sense of say Father of Jesus. It was more along the lines of God of a fictional metaverse.
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I never argued Mac is God in the sense of say Father of Jesus. It was more along the lines of God of a fictional metaverse.
So God as in the actual Creator entity, just not necessarily related to the in-world Abrahamic religions and/or the Angelic Team
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Yeah.
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I just had this thought in another thread, Mac could be a corwin like character who walked a pattern which either created a new universe or opened a way to it. In the case of opening a way rather than creating the universe, Mac can be not God but some entity that allowed travel between multiverse/universes.
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I just had this thought in another thread, Mac could be a corwin like character who walked a pattern which either created a new universe or opened a way to it. In the case of opening a way rather than creating the universe, Mac can be not God but some entity that allowed travel between multiverse/universes.
Maybe.... Watcher could be some sort of Mantle/Celestial Being that monitors realities, and the travel between them.
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It would explain why Mac is a being that HWWBefore took note of. It would/could also explain why Mac has so many Mirrors in his Bar. He is also keeping tabs on things elsewhere. It goes along with my WAG that Mac's Bar isn't just a place in one reality but that it has some significance across realities. It exists as some multiversal Pub in some respects. I mentioned before the changing sign at his bar noting ACCORDED NEUTRAL TERRITORY vs ACCORDED NEUTRAL GROUND vs ...