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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: kbrizzle on December 20, 2017, 05:42:17 AM

Title: Justine’s heritage
Post by: kbrizzle on December 20, 2017, 05:42:17 AM
Did anyone come up with a good WAG as to Justine’s parentage? I recall a WoJ that she’s not entirely human. And she’s kinda weird to be honest.

Jim included a line in Grave Peril at Bianca’s party where Justine basically tells Harry that she experiences wild mood swings from time to time & Thomas’ presence helps. I thought it was kind of a cop out from Jim about we shouldn’t feel like Justine is a victim with Stockholm Syndrome, but looks like he may have been setting something interesting up.

What do you guys think?
Title: Re: Justine’s heritage
Post by: wardenferry419 on December 20, 2017, 08:45:01 AM
I thought she might be a changling since her mental issues seem similar to what Sarissa had.
Title: Re: Justine’s heritage
Post by: Rasins on December 20, 2017, 07:40:56 PM
According to Kavros, Justine's mood swings are what make her so delicious to the Vamps.  Makes her emotions much stronger.

Title: Re: Justine’s heritage
Post by: groinkick on December 20, 2017, 08:52:41 PM
I thought she might be a changling since her mental issues seem similar to what Sarissa had.

Yeah she's probably some kind of mix...  Changeling or one parent was mortal, and the other was something else....  Something is causing her to swing back and forth.  I wonder if her being balanced out when fed upon is because it's her other, non vanilla side being fed on.
Title: Re: Justine’s heritage
Post by: Kindler on December 20, 2017, 09:09:12 PM
I always liked to think that she actually had Cassandra's Tears, which drove her to instability. Lydia's introduction in the same book was a little too coincidental to me, and Lydia wasn't exactly a picture of mental health. Her association with a different Vampire Court also appealed to my sense of symmetry.

It kind of ties in to my thought that those with Cassandra's Tears are descendants of second-born children of the Archive maternal line.

I don't know if she's a changeling or not, but I'd be interested if she had some kind of connection to the Fomor.
Title: Re: Justine’s heritage
Post by: wardenferry419 on December 20, 2017, 11:31:40 PM
I would put Justine under the category mostly mortal but not fully mortal.
Title: Re: Justine’s heritage
Post by: Ananda on December 20, 2017, 11:38:49 PM
Maybe she’s part tribble?  Think of how cute her tribble baby might be if the tribble genes come to the forefront. Here’s a sample pic of her holding her baby.
(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/ac/fb/0d/acfb0da68603c031f5edc3c05fc9188a--star-trek--star-trek-tos.jpg)
Title: Re: Justine’s heritage
Post by: wardenferry419 on December 21, 2017, 12:02:07 PM
Can't be, Uhura is better looking than Justine.
Title: Re: Justine’s heritage
Post by: Rasins on December 21, 2017, 07:04:00 PM
Maybe she’s part tribble?  Think of how cute her tribble baby might be if the tribble genes come to the forefront. Here’s a sample pic of her holding her baby.
(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/ac/fb/0d/acfb0da68603c031f5edc3c05fc9188a--star-trek--star-trek-tos.jpg)

More likely a Gremlin ...

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Justine’s heritage
Post by: wardenferry419 on December 22, 2017, 12:53:11 AM
I love Gremlins. A good holiday movie.
Title: Re: Justine’s heritage
Post by: pcpoet on December 23, 2017, 06:56:33 PM
I think she has demon blood in her and that makes her emotionally unstable. I think that kravos knew exactly what Justine was. I also think if you want a good idea of her back story read the short Even hand. Justine rescues a little girl being held by the former. I think at one Time Justine was held in similar circumstances.
Title: Re: Justine’s heritage
Post by: groinkick on December 23, 2017, 08:30:07 PM
Is it possible Justine at one time was mind manipulated by a wizard, and it messed her up?  We know that people can be damaged if this is done.  Perhaps she has a parent or sibling that messed with her mind?
Title: Re: Justine’s heritage
Post by: forumghost on December 25, 2017, 02:09:05 AM
I have no idea about Justine's heritage, and I suspect it doesn't matter- that biologically speaking, she's quite ordinary

Rather, she's just extra-tasty to Wampires because she's the reincarnation of a Paranormal Romance protagonist that migrated from a parallel universe.
Title: Re: Justine’s heritage
Post by: Rasins on December 28, 2017, 04:55:10 PM
I think there are plenty of mentally unbalanced normal people out there that we don't have to go beyond humanity for her heritage.

Could she be a scion of a demon or something, sure.  But really, I doubt it.
Title: Re: Justine’s heritage
Post by: Talby16 on December 28, 2017, 09:02:28 PM
Just want to stop by and fan the flames a bit. We know that when Thomas was mortally injured he fed on Justine to heal himself. Lara states that based on his injuries it should have been a fatal feeding. The accepted explanation is that Thomas held himself back (at risk to himself) out of his love for Justine. What if she has some other attribute due to her parentage that protected her?
Title: Re: Justine’s heritage
Post by: wardenferry419 on December 28, 2017, 11:41:24 PM
That is a possibility.
Title: Re: Justine’s heritage
Post by: Kindler on December 29, 2017, 01:56:48 PM
Just want to stop by and fan the flames a bit. We know that when Thomas was mortally injured he fed on Justine to heal himself. Lara states that based on his injuries it should have been a fatal feeding. The accepted explanation is that Thomas held himself back (at risk to himself) out of his love for Justine. What if she has some other attribute due to her parentage that protected her?

Maybe the inverse of a relatively emotionless Kincaid, a nephilim? But it dates to so far back in her ancestry that it only presents itself as relative insanity and heightened emotions?

Or, like Raisins said, she's mentally ill. Maybe the function by which the White Court affects humans (making them feel heightened desire or terror) holds a clue to whether it's mental or physical for her. Do they mess with chemical balances and hormone production to achieve the effect, or is it purely mental? I'm assuming Thomas's (and other White Court Vampires) calming effect is a byproduct of rebalancing whatever is off-kilter.
Title: Re: Justine’s heritage
Post by: Rasins on December 29, 2017, 04:03:50 PM
I see the feeding as a means for them to drain off her extra emotions.  When she was almost fatally fed upon, she was SO drained she could barely communicate.  As her illness came back, she recovered some, eventually needing meds to stay level, as Lara's asst.

Once she broke the true love protection, she's probably off her meds again, and using Thomas to smooth her out again.
Title: Re: Justine’s heritage
Post by: Kindler on December 29, 2017, 08:34:03 PM
I see the feeding as a means for them to drain off her extra emotions.  When she was almost fatally fed upon, she was SO drained she could barely communicate.  As her illness came back, she recovered some, eventually needing meds to stay level, as Lara's asst.

Once she broke the true love protection, she's probably off her meds again, and using Thomas to smooth her out again.

My understanding wasn't that it was explicitly Thomas's feeding that did it, but his presence, to which I attributed his natural luring...aura? Talents? Ability? Mechanism? Mechanism. If it was the feeding, then it could just be stifling symptoms rather than correcting an issue.
Title: Re: Justine’s heritage
Post by: groinkick on December 30, 2017, 06:14:03 AM
I have no idea about Justine's heritage, and I suspect it doesn't matter- that biologically speaking, she's quite ordinary

Rather, she's just extra-tasty to Wampires because she's the reincarnation of a Paranormal Romance protagonist that migrated from a parallel universe.

From Buffy the vampire slayer?  Making a guess.  What were you thinking of?
Title: Re: Justine’s heritage
Post by: wardenferry419 on December 30, 2017, 07:39:25 PM
Sookie Stackhouse?
Title: Re: Justine’s heritage
Post by: Rasins on January 03, 2018, 04:46:04 PM
Sookie Stackhouse?

You had to go there, didn't you?
Title: Re: Justine’s heritage
Post by: wardenferry419 on January 03, 2018, 09:48:02 PM
Sorry, it is the trivia nerd in me. I MUST guess the right answer.
Title: Re: Justine’s heritage
Post by: jonas on January 03, 2018, 09:55:05 PM
I would put Justine under the category mostly mortal but not fully mortal.
yea I think she's a changling personally. Something about what Kravos said when he possessed both of them. Which is really a huge F'ing clue Justine was Nfected early on. She already had holes in her willpower akin to Lydia's drug usage without anything that would naturally compromise her... except emotions and other inflections of aspects of the self upon the conscious mind. Her Id or other aspects manifest was stronger than her free will..
Title: Re: Justine’s heritage
Post by: wardenferry419 on January 03, 2018, 10:04:35 PM
Why name the character Justine which is very close to Justin?
Title: Re: Justine’s heritage
Post by: Rasins on January 04, 2018, 06:19:36 PM
yea I think she's a changling personally. Something about what Kravos said when he possessed both of them. Which is really a huge F'ing clue Justine was Nfected early on. She already had holes in her willpower akin to Lydia's drug usage without anything that would naturally compromise her... except emotions and other inflections of aspects of the self upon the conscious mind. Her Id or other aspects manifest was stronger than her free will..

That also could just be another mentally ill person.
Title: Re: Justine’s heritage
Post by: groinkick on January 04, 2018, 06:41:19 PM
Why name the character Justine which is very close to Justin?

(https://media.tenor.com/images/7ef310ebf52c446353a009400d1f00cf/tenor.gif)


Never even thought of that!
Title: Re: Justine’s heritage
Post by: Rasins on January 04, 2018, 06:57:19 PM
(https://media.tenor.com/images/7ef310ebf52c446353a009400d1f00cf/tenor.gif)


Never even thought of that!

Reminds me of a meme.  Could be offensive to some, so I'm putting it in a spoiler.

(click to show/hide)

Please remember this is all in fun.
Title: Re: Justine’s heritage
Post by: groinkick on January 04, 2018, 06:59:57 PM
Reminds me of a meme.  Could be offensive to some, so I'm putting it in a spoiler.

(click to show/hide)

Please remember this is all in fun.

lol I'm not offended however I don't know how others will handle it.

(http://dxe5lcrjpy7emwfo-zippykid.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/trouble.gif)
Title: Re: Justine’s heritage
Post by: wardenferry419 on January 05, 2018, 12:05:53 AM
Uh-Oh, Rasisns is getting ris-kay! LOL
Title: Re: Justine’s heritage
Post by: jonas on January 05, 2018, 02:15:13 AM
That also could just be another mentally ill person.
If they hadn't later connected the idea of 'congenital defect' to Sarissa's Changling status messing with her, sure.
Title: Re: Justine’s heritage
Post by: Ananda on January 05, 2018, 04:11:47 AM
Reminds me of a meme.  Could be offensive to some, so I'm putting it in a spoiler.

(click to show/hide)

Please remember this is all in fun.
Aww, that was funny. It sounds like something my husband would say. People are too easily offended these days. I find it’s better to assume people generally mean well and have good intentions and not read too much into things.
Title: Re: Justine’s heritage
Post by: Rasins on January 05, 2018, 04:18:22 PM
Aww, that was funny. It sounds like something my husband would say. People are too easily offended these days. I find it’s better to assume people generally mean well and have good intentions and not read too much into things.

The exact same meme could be made about men ... LOL
Title: Re: Justine’s heritage
Post by: Kindler on January 08, 2018, 02:15:43 PM
Why name the character Justine which is very close to Justin?

Maybe her mental illness stems from being discarded by Justin shortly after he discovered that she didn't have magical talent. A failed attempt at creating a starborn?
Title: Re: Justine’s heritage
Post by: wardenferry419 on January 08, 2018, 03:06:57 PM
Maybe nothing or maybe something, just seems a little odd to me.
Title: Re: Justine’s heritage
Post by: Talby16 on January 09, 2018, 03:19:44 PM
With the lack of new material to go over we could be just be reading into things a bit much. I mean, we all know that Mr. Butcher is not a dangerous mastermind who leaves clues/plot threads in his books that will not be fulfilled until the BAT. Right?
Title: Re: Justine’s heritage
Post by: Rasins on January 09, 2018, 07:28:03 PM
Maybe her mental illness stems from being discarded by Justin shortly after he discovered that she didn't have magical talent. A failed attempt at creating a starborn?

Justine is like 20 years younger than Harry.  Since he killed Justin when he was 16, I don't think it's possible for Justine to have been anywhere near Justin.
Title: Re: Justine’s heritage
Post by: Kindler on January 09, 2018, 08:28:41 PM
Justine is like 20 years younger than Harry.  Since he killed Justin when he was 16, I don't think it's possible for Justine to have been anywhere near Justin.

My reading is closer to ten years. Harry mentions she's eighteen-twenty in Grave Peril, and Harry himself is 28-32, as far as I can recall. That's just enough time for Justin to have Justine, realize she's not a starborn, toss her, and start checking orphanages.

It's probably bunk, anyway.
Title: Re: Justine’s heritage
Post by: Ananda on January 09, 2018, 11:40:40 PM
It’s code*.  Justine = Just (a) teen. Butcher was letting us know she was a teenager at the point of introduction. Due to her mental instability compounded by trauma, she seized emotionally in that state and is thus forever developmentally a teen.  It helps explain the juvenile and codependent relationship she and Thomas have as he also is developmentally stunted since, when he came of age, he was vampirised (aka vampirisation aka envampination).

*not really
Title: Re: Justine’s heritage
Post by: wardenferry419 on January 09, 2018, 11:52:27 PM
I would put Justine's level of emotional and intellectual development ahead of Thomas.
Title: Re: Justine’s heritage
Post by: Rasins on January 10, 2018, 12:08:45 AM
Per the timeline, Justine was born about 17 years before Storm Front. Grave Peril was about a year later, so Justine was about 18 when Harry met her.  Which means, when Harry killed Justin, she'd have been about 2.

Also, IIRC, in GP, Justin said her parents had placed her in "special schools" really institutions/mental hospitals throughout her life, which would suggest that Justin wouldn't have had "access" to her.

I hate to poke holes in theories, but this gnawed at me.  Sorry.
Title: Re: Justine’s heritage
Post by: forumghost on January 10, 2018, 12:27:51 AM
I would put Justine's level of emotional and intellectual development ahead of Thomas.

I mean that isn't hard, he's related to Harry after all
Title: Re: Justine’s heritage
Post by: wardenferry419 on January 10, 2018, 09:58:28 AM
Yeah, I was iffy about the connection; just thought it was a curious about name similarity.
Title: Re: Justine’s heritage
Post by: forumghost on January 10, 2018, 10:16:59 AM
Having similar names isn't a connection, it's Jim liking certain names.

Gwen from Cinder Spires is another Maggie, anyone want to speculate on her relation to Dresden?
Title: Re: Justine’s heritage
Post by: Kindler on January 10, 2018, 07:44:18 PM
Having similar names isn't a connection, it's Jim liking certain names.

Gwen from Cinder Spires is another Maggie, anyone want to speculate on her relation to Dresden?

I pointed that one out to my dad over the summer, and he groaned. It's not enough that the silkweavers were enough like the Vord to make us think crazy things...

Per the timeline, Justine was born about 17 years before Storm Front. Grave Peril was about a year later, so Justine was about 18 when Harry met her.  Which means, when Harry killed Justin, she'd have been about 2.

Also, IIRC, in GP, Justin said her parents had placed her in "special schools" really institutions/mental hospitals throughout her life, which would suggest that Justin wouldn't have had "access" to her.

I hate to poke holes in theories, but this gnawed at me.  Sorry.

And yeah, that's what I'm saying. I'm presuming that he discarded her as a baby, then dug up Harry and Elaine shortly after.

It's not what happened; it'd be too soap opera, I think, but it's fun for me to think about.
Title: Re: Justine’s heritage
Post by: Rasins on January 10, 2018, 07:50:46 PM
And yeah, that's what I'm saying. I'm presuming that he discarded her as a baby, then dug up Harry and Elaine shortly after.

It's not what happened; it'd be too soap opera, I think, but it's fun for me to think about.

LOL ... I can live with that.
Title: Re: Justine’s heritage
Post by: Teslas Shadow on January 12, 2018, 11:58:49 AM
As far as I can recall, we don't know anything about Justin's extended family. Justine could be a niece or other relation that was named after him.

Heh.. maybe Justine is Cowl's daughter..and he named her after Justin.
Title: Re: Justine’s heritage
Post by: Quantus on January 12, 2018, 01:10:49 PM
As far as I can recall, we don't know anything about Justin's extended family. Justine could be a niece or other relation that was named after him.

Heh.. maybe Justine is Cowl's daughter..and he named her after Justin.
I thought we had something vague about her having a similar family backstory to Charity in that she came from a family that had more Money than Love.  There were a bunch of theories trying to tie her, Charity, and Faith all together by virtue of that similarity.   But I couldnt say for certain if it's actually mentioned anywhere; need to check Aftermath and Bombshells. 
Title: Re: Justine’s heritage
Post by: Kindler on January 12, 2018, 01:52:33 PM
I thought we had something vague about her having a similar family backstory to Charity in that she came from a family that had more Money than Love.  There were a bunch of theories trying to tie her, Charity, and Faith all together by virtue of that similarity.   But I couldnt say for certain if it's actually mentioned anywhere; need to check Aftermath and Bombshells.

Hmm. So we have Hope (Carpenter), Faith, and Charity—which in some translations of the Bible is the end of "Faith, Hope, and Love." Been noted before, I'm sure. "Justine" means "upright" or "righteous." As a double-whammy, "Amanda" means "deserving of love," too. So, in the BAT, we could have Faith, Hope, Love, and Charity all under one roof, alongside "Righteousness." (As a side note, "Harry" means "Commander of an army" or "protector of a home," which fits well.)