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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: wardenferry419 on November 07, 2017, 11:36:24 PM
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Who has thorny's coin?
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Marcone said he would look into it. Has he searched and not found it, figured out where it went and is not telling Harry, or does he have it?
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I heard a theory that Hendricks picked it up. That's the reason that Marcone and Hendricks were in Rome, trying to get Hendricks un-possessed.
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When do we find out that Marcone and Hendricks were in Rome?
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I'm trying to remember for sure, but wasn't it in GS during the meeting at Murphy's house?
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I think so, that is when we had Childers representing Marcone's interest.
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Well, who's present that's still kicking at the end of the book?
Harry
Eldest Gruff
Sanya
Michael
Marcone
Ivy
Hendricks
Gard
Tessa
Nic
Rosanna
Deirdre
An Army of Worthless Mooks Who Would KILL to Get a Coin for Themselves
Thomas, Molly, and Murphy aren't around.
Nic was on the boat, and seemed genuinely surprised that Harry didn't have the Coins, so I'll rule him out.
Deirdre was a bit busy with the whole murdering Harry thing.
Michael and Sanya just... no.
Ivy was out of it, pretty much unconscious.
Marcone works for Marcone, and I believe him when he says he doesn't know.
Hendricks... I don't think he'd pick up a Coin. A) he's too smart for that, and B) he's too loyal to Marcone for split loyalties with anyone else (except for Gard, because he totally loves her.)
Gard might be interested in it for simple information gathering purposes, but I'm not sure she's really capable of doing something that might compromise her loyalty to Vaderrung.
Harry doesn't remember picking it up if he did it at all.
That leaves Tessa, Rosanna, Eldest Gruff, and an Army of Mooks Who Would Kill to Get Their Hands on a Coin.
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If memory serves, Michael was in Harry's view from the time he put the coin into his pouch until the helicopter flew away. That eliminates Tessa and Rossana unless the helicopter landed on another part of the island before going back to the mainland. Same with the Army of Mooks (even less of a chance since they are vanilla mortal). Eldest Gruff may have the power to do it, but we do not officially see or hear him until after the helicopter has left. My money is on Hendricks by mistake or Gard on the orders of Vaderrung.
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As much as I like the closed room mystery puzzle, I feel like we can't forget the possibility that someone summoned the coin.
We know it's possible since Lash wanted to show Harry how to do it in the climax of WN before her Heroic Sacrifice™ and it was one of his backup plans if Mab turned him down in Changes.
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Gonna go with Hendricks, for the Merlin/Arthur connect... that would likely make him Lancelot, the betrayer...
*OH SH*T, Gard even works as a surrogate Guin, A. She helps him with the magic side of his kingdom, B. they don't boink... C. She does boink 'Lancelot', apparently
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I'm sticking with Hendricks.
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Assuming a closed room mystery as phil said above, I think the only two options are Hendricks and Gard. I'm going with Gard on orders from Vadderung to secure either a coin or that coin in particular (due to Thorny being in collusion with or infected by Nemesis).
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I could see Thorny being in collusion with Nemesis, but not Nemfected. I realize our WoJ only says Arch-Angels, but I'm betting Angels in general are too unchanging, until they fall that is, to be Nemfected.
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have to go along with Kindler on this one.
The other possibility is that one of them took the coin, without intending to "take" the coin. I could totally see Marcone acquiring the coin, carefully placing it in some vault and leaving it there without ever letting anyone (including himself) touch the coin with flesh. It is one of the few ways to harm the denarians as a whole after all - put a coin out of circulation.
The other possibility not discussed is that some spell (death curse...) triggered to send the coin to some pre-arranged spot.
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Doesn't Thorny eat magic kinda like Papa Raith's protection spell?
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Doesn't Thorny eat magic kinda like Papa Raith's protection spell?
I got the sense that the function by which he "ate" the spell was qualitatively different from Papa Raith. Eb described it as magic sliding off him; Thorny waved a hand and "ate" it. Lord Raith's was passive protection, Thorny's was active, if that makes sense. At least, that's how I read it.
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I got the sense that the function by which he "ate" the spell was qualitatively different from Papa Raith. Eb described it as magic sliding off him; Thorny waved a hand and "ate" it. Lord Raith's was passive protection, Thorny's was active, if that makes sense. At least, that's how I read it.
Same antimagic force to it though yea?
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Same antimagic force to it though yea?
No. One is Pam on a frying pan, the other is teflon. Stuff doesn't stick to it, but the way it's done is different; same outcome, different means. Outsider sponsorship is not the only means by which magic can be negated; we saw that with the Genoskwa, which grounded magic out passively.
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Does Thorny gain in power when eating magic or is it dispersed?
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No. One is Pam on a frying pan, the other is teflon. Stuff doesn't stick to it, but the way it's done is different; same outcome, different means. Outsider sponsorship is not the only means by which magic can be negated; we saw that with the Genoskwa, which grounded magic out passively.
.... Na man, pretty sure that's the whole point of Necromancy/darkmagic/antilife connectives. positive and negative force. both things come from the negative sources.
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Thorny Nem played a shell game and bolted al binder like.
Or the Dens tricked or weakened her enough Ivy into taking the coin
while she was in the cage. To gain info on OW or other uses.
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.... Na man, pretty sure that's the whole point of Necromancy/darkmagic/antilife connectives. positive and negative force. both things come from the negative sources.
The point is that there is more than one negative source. Some from here, some from Outside. The function by which Thorny ate Dresden's magic is described totally differently. One is implicitly from Outsider sponsorship. The other doesn't have to be.
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The point is that there is more than one negative source. Some from here, some from Outside. The function by which Thorny ate Dresden's magic is described totally differently. One is implicitly from Outsider sponsorship. The other doesn't have to be.
Yea, that.
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The way I read it was, that Pappa Raiths version is like a black-hole. You could just keep dumping more and more in and it just goes away.
Where as Thorny's was more like he took it into himself.
Kind of like if you threw a hamburger at Raith, a gravitional force moved it into a trashcan. Thorny caught the hamburger and consumed it.
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It fell into the cold and dark waters of the lake and Mab picked it up. Thorned Namshiel is currently in a block of ice being tortured by Mab.
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It fell into the cold and dark waters of the lake and Mab picked it up. Thorned Namshiel is currently in a block of ice being tortured by Mab.
That is a great image, but I don't think this is the case. It's not in the nature of the coins to remain out of circulation.
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That is a great image, but I don't think this is the case. It's not in the nature of the coins to remain out of circulation.
Yeah, but it hasn't been very long, just a couple of years. That's milliseconds to a Fallen. We still haven't seen Cassius's Coin come back, for example, though we've seen Ursiel's, which was delivered to the Church at the same time (within a day or two, I think). Neither of them were there during Small Favor, when every Denarian left was present.
Lasciel's was on the bench for, what, four years, max? White Night through Cold Days/Skin Game? Cassius's has been out for ten, just about.
And if it did fall in the water, imagine if Cat Sith picked it up while he was down there; Nemesis/Thorny/Mab all warring for control of the Eldest Malk. That's a big ball of bad I'd like to see.
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That is a great image, but I don't think this is the case. It's not in the nature of the coins to remain out of circulation.
It is not in their nature to meddle in the affairs of the Sidhe either. When they do they have to pay the price. And if the coin is really infected Mab has a legitimate reason to keep it as long as she guards the gates.
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It is not in their nature to meddle in the affairs of the Sidhe either. When they do they have to pay the price. And if the coin is really infected Mab has a legitimate reason to keep it as long as she guards the gates.
I agree, but I also think that's the crux of it. She might have legitimately held the host/coin combo without any problem. But if you take something out of mortal hands that's specifically suppose to be in mortal hands I gotta think theirs some kinda backlash... This is perhaps a situation where Mab's own nature gets the better of her. When she held the WK it let the fetches come play... for the right reasons she can do the wrong thing.
Now we have two coins potentially out of mortal hands and the apocalypse is brewing, I find this a likely coincidence. Any other major force we've seen put on 'ice' or clay, that's not supposed to be has had major backlash. And oh look, now we have walkers just strolling around reality at will without any sort of host.
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I agree, but I also think that's the crux of it. She might have legitimately held the host/coin combo without any problem. But if you take something out of mortal hands that's specifically suppose to be in mortal hands I gotta think theirs some kinda backlash... This is perhaps a situation where Mab's own nature gets the better of her. When she held the WK it let the fetches come play... for the right reasons she can do the wrong thing.
Now we have two coins potentially out of mortal hands and the apocalypse is brewing, I find this a likely coincidence. Any other major force we've seen put on 'ice' or clay, that's not supposed to be has had major backlash. And oh look, now we have walkers just strolling around reality at will without any sort of host.
(If this sounds sarcastic or flippant, that isn't my intent): Are you suggesting that disrupting the Order of things—in this case by removing the Coins from mortal circulation with Lasciel's, Ursiel's, and Thorny's in the possession of Mab and Hades—that there will be backlash, and that the Walkers manifesting in our reality represents this backlash?
Also, yes, remember that Hades has both Lasciel and Ursiel; the Gensokwa was killed at the Ice Gate, and Harry didn't retrieve his Coin.
If I understand correctly, that's an interesting idea. I'm not sure how that would be explained if it's the case. Mac says there are three Walkers, and there are three Coins out of mortal hands now. This goes against the idea that Nemesis is He Who Walks Beside, of course, so maybe we'll see the third Walker come out to play soon.
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(If this sounds sarcastic or flippant, that isn't my intent): Are you suggesting that disrupting the Order of things—in this case by removing the Coins from mortal circulation with Lasciel's, Ursiel's, and Thorny's in the possession of Mab and Hades—that there will be backlash, and that the Walkers manifesting in our reality represents this backlash?
Also, yes, remember that Hades has both Lasciel and Ursiel; the Gensokwa was killed at the Ice Gate, and Harry didn't retrieve his Coin.
If I understand correctly, that's an interesting idea. I'm not sure how that would be explained if it's the case. Mac says there are three Walkers, and there are three Coins out of mortal hands now. This goes against the idea that Nemesis is He Who Walks Beside, of course, so maybe we'll see the third Walker come out to play soon.
More or less, yep.(forgot about Ursiel there) The coins balance out the swords 30 to 3, but as we've seen in the DF elsewhere most everything has a balance on the leverage. Usually in a tit for tat manor. but what if it's to keep their real counterweight in check, 3 walkers to take on 3 KotC. Other reasoning's that point that way, that the Denarians are basically breeding an atmosphere of apocalyptic potential... actually dispersing the energy from collecting and manifesting all in one spot or giving the walkers a penumbral mirror to cast themselves into reality with, as the Fallen take on the mirroring of all the host's actions themselves.
*I could, by and large wax eloquent about this theory for hours, as it's really the one that ties and binds most of the rest of my theories into one cohesive whole.
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Dresden files does have elements of Numerology to it.
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I had to read that 4 times to NOT see you suggesting that Mag and Hades picked up a coin and were hosting fallen.
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If you can pick the holy grail and the spear of destiny and the shroud why not a few coins?
After all he does not take them out of circulation, he just makes sure the next holder is really motivated.
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Well, it has to be better than the security that the church is usually. I remember Harry's comment about vending machines.