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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: raidem on November 06, 2017, 10:25:20 PM
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I've posted this before but I wanted an updated version that hasn't been delete.
Death Masks
Mac caught my eye when I came in and nodded to my left. I looked. A sign on the wall said, ACCORDED NEUTRAL GROUND. I looked back at Mac. He drew a shotgun out from behind the bar so that I could see it and said, "Got it?"
"No problem," I answered.
Dead Beat
The minute I shut the door behind me, some of the fear and tension faded, the dark energies Cowl had stirred up sliding around the tavern like a stream pouring around a small, heavy stone.
A sign on the wall just inside the door proclaimed, ACCORDED NEUTRAL TERRITORY.
Proven Guilty
Referred to by Fix in phone call as:
Accorded neutral territory,” he responded.
He meant McAnally’s pub.
Then when they meet at McAnally's
There’s a sign Mac’s got hanging up at the door that reads ACCORDED NEUTRAL GROUND.
White Night
On the wall beside the door was a wooden sign that stated, simply, ACCORDED neutral ground. That meant that Mac had declared the place a nonpartisan location,
Small Favor
Reference to it
It doesn’t keep out any of the supernatural riffraff—that’s what the sign by the door is for. Mac had the place legally recognized as neutral ground among the members of the Unseelie Accords, and members of any of the Accorded nations had a responsibility to avoid conflict in such a place, or at least to take it outside.
Cold Day's References
(Vadderung's Bodyguard, I think)
A woman with a voice cold enough to merit the use of the Kelvin scale spat, “He will meet you. Accorded Neutral Ground. Ten minutes."
Thomas swung to his feet and slipped the little automatic into the back of his pants, then pulled his shirt down over it. “Where are we going?” “Accorded Neutral Ground,” I said.
When they visit to meet Vadderung, sign reads see excerpt:
The two of them went to a far table, bickering cheerfully, and sat down, passing by the real reason we were meeting here—a modest wooden sign with simple letters burned into it: ACCORDED NEUTRAL TERRITORY.
Skin Game
When Harry meets with Mab and Kringle at McAnnaly's it reads, see excerpt.
Normally, Mac’s does a brisk trade, but today there was a sign on the door that read: CLOSED FOR PRIVATE PARTY. A second sign hung inside the door, a wooden one, into which the words ACCORDED NEUTRAL TERRITORY had been neatly burned.
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I am guessing that a simple explanation like Mac had a new sign made ain't going to cut it.LOL
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So, there is a flip flop between ACCORDED NEUTRAL GROUND, ACCORDED NEUTRAL TERRITORY mainly and one OUTLIER of ACCORDED neutral ground. The last though might simply be a not ALL CAPS mistake.
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So, what if Mac's bar is a nexus point existing out of time. (Like the Restaurant in Adams' book) And, sometimes the scenery shifts, minutely, but Mac stays relatively unchanged.
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So, what if Mac's bar is a nexus point existing out of time. (Like the Restaurant in Adams' book) And, sometimes the scenery shifts, minutely, but Mac stays relatively unchanged.
Wow, beat me too it, what if, like MW, Mac exists in so many different realities as the same relative thing in each? So the background timeline shifts cause his sign to change more often than other examples?
Also, I wonder at the difference in wording in defining grounds and territory. Grounds makes it almost a 'hollowed' place whereas Territory refers more to it's protection by a group authority, small nuances like that.
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Yeah the last time I had this up, I was wondering about a central nexus like your talking about.
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Yeah the last time I had this up, I was wondering about a central nexus like your talking about.
One could say as it's a sign gotten from Mab, a being of singular existence. as opposed to his own item, it's the only thing directly from each interrelated reality. The rest is his domain/he brings it makes it himself, like his microbrew(which seems to end up in more than enough alternate realities even without a Dresden in the mix lol)
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So, Mab's sign is changing with Mab's identity or history in some sort of EXTREMELY MINOR flux.
Or, Mac succeeded in Quest but his Reward is in flux changing from ACCORDED NEUTRAL GROUND to ACCORDED NEUTRAL TERRITORY.
The exact language of the quest Mab lays out to get Accorded status for a bar and the exact language of the reward is in flux.
Or, maybe there is two very close parallel realities that are getting flip flopped with just that change being noticed as separate between the two.
And exactly what the Quest says the sign/bar will be called as a result.
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It is a difference that makes no difference in my opinion, call it ground or territory the bar is a neutral area.
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It's likely just an inconsistent mistake, but Harry does comment that vanillas never seem to be able to find it.
The beer is certainly beyond this mortal plane.
It is clear that it is Mac's demesne in the Nevernever. Ipso facto, Mac is a ghost. One that brews beer. A... spirit spirit.
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It's likely just an inconsistent mistake, but Harry does comment that vanillas never seem to be able to find it.
The beer is certainly beyond this mortal plane.
It is clear that it is Mac's demesne in the Nevernever. Ipso facto, Mac is a ghost. One that brews beer. A... spirit spirit.
Mistakes have been corrected before, but certain things though pointed out, still remain the same. Other things were pointed to as timeline flux, which would make sense too.
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Mistakes have been corrected before, but certain things though pointed out, still remain the same. Other things were pointed to as timeline flux, which would make sense too.
Is there a list of previous corrections in subsequent editions somewhere? That'd be interesting to read.
I don't think that we can use dialogue as an example; that's just difference in word choice, and they're synonymous terms. The sign changing is concrete, though. It was messed up badly in Cold Days during the fight with He Who Walks Before, and was likely replaced. I don't recall damage to it in previous books that would explain it, though.
Small inconsistencies like the exact wording can be explained by this being Harry's recollections, looking back years after everything had happened. I'm not sure this is a firm example of timeline changes. However, the sign is specifically different in Proven Guilty and White Night, the two books with the most time travel theorizing; they're the same as Death Masks, which doesn't have anything to do with time travel, as far as I'm aware on my theory readings.
Heh. Maybe Harry went back to switch out the Shroud to give it to Hades, which is why it isn't the real one.
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Is there a list of previous corrections in subsequent editions somewhere? That'd be interesting to read.
Not that i'm aware, of but he has plenty of Beta readers... might be a list of things left unchanged though. Bianca's assistants name, the car changing models in DB, Morty's Hair and domicile switched back and forth, this sign shenanigans, ect. Things that clearly are not correct but are not corrected in later editions either.
(actually, I think there is a pinned post of caught mistakes somewhere too)
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So it's Ground until Cold Days.
Wasn't there a fire in Cold Days?
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So it's Ground until Cold Days.
Wasn't there a fire in Cold Days?
Yeah, Mac picks up the sign and hangs it back up on the wall after the fight with He Who Walks Before, but it's all messed up and charred to hell.
But it switches in Dead Beat to "Territory," then back to "Ground" in Proven Guilty.
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Maybe he has two different signs.
But most likely, Jim just keeps forgetting which one is which.
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Yeah, Mac picks up the sign and hangs it back up on the wall after the fight with He Who Walks Before, but it's all messed up and charred to hell.
But it switches in Dead Beat to "Territory," then back to "Ground" in Proven Guilty.
Oh, I missed that.
Lends more credence to my theory about each book being a different "version" of Harry in a different Mirror Mirror type universe with just little differences.
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By itself not major proof of anything. Could just be author inconsistency. However, it is one more piece of evidence on the timeline/reality side of the argument.
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By itself not major proof of anything. Could just be author inconsistency. However, it is one more piece of evidence on the timeline/reality side of the argument.
I'm firmly on the different realities explanation. At least redacting it for Jim.
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If it was different in just one book or changed once I could see it as evidence of time travel changes, but with the flip - flopping it strikes me as just a minor detail that was overlooked during editing.
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If it was different in just one book or changed once I could see it as evidence of time travel changes, but with the flip - flopping it strikes me as just a minor detail that was overlooked during editing.
Noooooooo .... It can't be.
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Occam's razor.
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Personally I think it was a Jim oops. But he's all but said that all of his "oops"-es will be explained, maybe by Harry being a poor narrator.
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In Peace Talks Harry will probably walk into the bar, notice the sign says Territory instead of Ground, and mention something to Mac along the lines of "Did this sign switch words?" To which Mac will only shrug and grunt while serving Harry a steak sandwich.
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In Peace Talks Harry will probably walk into the bar, notice the sign says Territory instead of Ground, and mention something to Mac along the lines of "Did this sign switch words?" To which Mac will only shrug and grunt while serving Harry a steak sandwich.
Oh, I'd love Harry to walk into Mac's at the beginning of Mirror and see Ground, then walk in while he's over there, and see Territory.
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In Peace Talks Harry will probably walk into the bar, notice the sign says Territory instead of Ground, and mention something to Mac along the lines of "Did this sign switch words?" To which Mac will only shrug and grunt while serving Harry a steak sandwich.
I like this. It sums up Mac so well.
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And since it is Mac chief Brewmancer and King of the Steak Sandwich... Harry will accept the grunt and ask no further questions.
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Actually, one time Mac tastes the brew finds it's a bit off and ends up looking at the sign. I'll have to go find out when that was.
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Actually, one time Mac tastes the brew finds it's a bit off and ends up looking at the sign. I'll have to go find out when that was.
You know, that does ring a distant bell ... please do find it.
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On a related topic to Mac: in his speech in Changes about Harry being tested when he finds out that he has a daughter, does it seem to anyone else that Mac is speaking from experience?
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Children make parents talk more than we want to.
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Its very telling that Mac chose to give that speech at that pivotal point in Harry's life.
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On a related topic to Mac: in his speech in Changes about Harry being tested when he finds out that he has a daughter, does it seem to anyone else that Mac is speaking from experience?
Its very telling that Mac chose to give that speech at that pivotal point in Harry's life.
Children make parents talk more than we want to.
Absolutely. And I've found myself sputtering incomprehensible sounds that are never part of speech, when my kids were involved.
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Also, substituting gibberish when I want to say curse words.
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Also, substituting gibberish when I want to say curse words.
New amusing game. Next time I read through the series I am going to replace all of Mac's grunts with swear words. That should add a new slant to the text.
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I have done that with some of R2D2 beeps.
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New amusing game. Next time I read through the series I am going to replace all of Mac's grunts with swear words. That should add a new slant to the text.
In ALL CAPS, so he's constantly shouting.
"This is a rough case, Mac," I said.
"F**K," Mac agreed.
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Does anyone think that Mac's lack of conversation is a choice or an obligation?
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Does anyone think that Mac's lack of conversation is a choice or an obligation?
I'd go with choice. In my mind he is observing events, not influencing them. Which makes his soliloquy to Harry in Changes all the more important.
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Does anyone think that Mac's lack of conversation is a choice or an obligation?
Doesn't Harry say Mac looks tired or uncomfortable after saying a bunch of words all at once? It might cost him something to speak; not quite an obligation or choice, exactly, but a limitation, if that makes sense. Though it's just as likely that Harry was being snarky.
Regardless, it's an interesting question. What characters or figures in myth and legend have speech limitations? Relatedly, which are notoriously difficult to amuse? I'm rereading Cold Days, and Vaderrung was very pleased with himself when he got Mac to laugh, like it was a particular challenge.
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Doesn't Harry say Mac looks tired or uncomfortable after saying a bunch of words all at once? It might cost him something to speak; not quite an obligation or choice, exactly, but a limitation, if that makes sense. Though it's just as likely that Harry was being snarky.
I'm pretty sure he says much the same thing when Hendricks is doing some thinking, so I'd chalk it up to snark.
It also makes it easier to write tertiary characters when they happen to be taciturn for whatever reason.
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Doesn't Harry say Mac looks tired or uncomfortable after saying a bunch of words all at once? It might cost him something to speak; not quite an obligation or choice, exactly, but a limitation, if that makes sense. Though it's just as likely that Harry was being snarky.
Regardless, it's an interesting question. What characters or figures in myth and legend have speech limitations? Relatedly, which are notoriously difficult to amuse? I'm rereading Cold Days, and Vaderrung was very pleased with himself when he got Mac to laugh, like it was a particular challenge.
That is an interesting question about legendary characters with speech limitations. Something I might look into.
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Does anyone think that Mac's lack of conversation is a choice or an obligation?
Perhaps like DR his usual voice is not what he uses to communicate, but a preplanned number of monosybllic replies?
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I think Vidar, Odin's son, had a speech issue. He becomes the one who avenges his father's death and kills Fenrir.
A number of theories surround the figure, including theories around potential ritual silence and a Proto-Indo-European basis.
Víđarr is introduced by the enthroned figure of High as "the silent god" with a thick shoe, that he is nearly as strong as the god Thor, and that the gods rely on him in times of immense difficulties.[6]
We do have that short story of the elves that hoard and/or repair shoes in the Dresden Files"
Georges Dumézil theorized that Víđarr represents a cosmic figure from an archetype derived from the Proto-Indo-Europeans.[19] Dumézil stated that he was aligned with both vertical space, due to his placement of his foot on the wolf's lower jaw and his hand on the wolf's upper jaw, and horizontal space, due to his wide step and strong shoe, and that, by killing the wolf, Víđarr keeps the wolf from destroying the cosmos, and the cosmos can thereafter be restored after the destruction resulting from Ragnarök.[19]
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I think Vidar, Odin's son, had a speech issue. He becomes the one who avenges his father's death and kills Fenrir.
A number of theories surround the figure, including theories around potential ritual silence and a Proto-Indo-European basis.
Víđarr is introduced by the enthroned figure of High as "the silent god" with a thick shoe, that he is nearly as strong as the god Thor, and that the gods rely on him in times of immense difficulties.[6]
Georges Dumézil theorized that Víđarr represents a cosmic figure from an archetype derived from the Proto-Indo-Europeans.[19] Dumézil stated that he was aligned with both vertical space, due to his placement of his foot on the wolf's lower jaw and his hand on the wolf's upper jaw, and horizontal space, due to his wide step and strong shoe, and that, by killing the wolf, Víđarr keeps the wolf from destroying the cosmos, and the cosmos can thereafter be restored after the destruction resulting from Ragnarök.[19]
Interesting. I don't peg Mac as a god or demigod, personally, but the ritual silence aspect may be relevant. "Watcher" might refer to someone watching for Ragnarok, rather than watching for Outsiders. Maybe the Outsiders previously attempted to trigger Ragnarok and failed (circa 1066, by the way), and this time they're trying to trigger the Biblical apocalypse?
Also, anyone else interpret Fenrir as a pack of wolves rather than one big one? Like, a group of Viking lycanthrope berserkers who tried to invade England and failed under the direction of King Harald, ending the Age of Vikings in the weeks leading up to Hastings in 1066 and damaging the English forces enough that they lost to William the Conqueror shortly thereafter? (I'm talking about Stamford Bridge, where legends say a single berserker held off the English army single-handed and took down several dozen of them before the English shot him down from the riverbanks with longbows.)