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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: KurtinStGeorge on October 21, 2017, 07:21:20 AM
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I thought it might be fun to look at some minor issues in Proven Guilty.
Harry hits the Winter Wellspring with Summer Fire which causes every Winter Fae on the border with Summer to rush back to Arctis Tor to try to kill Harry. After getting back to Chicago Harry discovers that this was what Lily hoped would happen. Harry figured out that Lily and Maeve were working together because when time got slowed down around Arctis Tor, this allowed Summer forces on the border with Winter to leave their defenses and go attack the Red Court and only Maeve had the ability to mess with time and how it flowed around Arctis Tor. (OK Mab or Mother Winter could do the same thing but Lily wasn't talking to either of them.)
So here's mystery #1: Did Harry have to specifically hit the Winter Well Spring to make this plan pay off? Because if he did it seems like a real low probability move by Lily. Harry could have fried Eldest Fetch without ever touching Winter's Well and how could Lily even predict Harry would have to get to the top of Arctis Tor in order to rescue Molly? Theoretically, the battle could have taken place downstairs or in some room within the castle or on the stairs leading to the top. Perhaps Maeve might have suggested where Harry would have to go to find Eldest Fetch and Molly.
Even so, what if Harry hadn't hit the Well with Summer Fire and instead used Summer Fire to knock down a wall or parapet that was an integral part of the castle. Would this have had the same effect on the Winter Fae at Summer's border? I can't prove this but I have a feeling it would have been the same or near enough to make no difference in the overall result. The way Jim has written about Mab's palace; though admittedly that's very little, suggests Arctid Tor is almost alive, and perhaps even sentient. The way the castle reacted to blood being spilled on its floor is suggestive of the first and in Cold Days Harry mentions some lights and or shifting colors within the walls that he decided were probably unsafe to stare at for too long. This suggests Artic Tor is more than another pretty Faerie Ice Castle. There may be a specific psychic connection between Arctis Tor and all of Winter. Someone could stand outside and throw rocks or even Hellfire at it and it wouldn't cause a reaction but an attack using Summer Fire or perhaps any specific Summer magic would cause all of Winter to come back to defend their Capitol. So that's my answer to my own question.
Minor mystery #2: Was Maeve surprised that Lily's plan worked? Maeve didn't think very highly of Lily so I wouldn't be surprised if she expected Lily's plan to fail. If this was the case that would mean Maeve wasn't happy she had to slow time and allow Summer to attack the Red Court, but she had no choice if she wanted to continue to deceive Lily.
Minor mystery #3: Was Maeve surprised that Harry survived his encounter with Eldest Fetch? I'm guessing Maeve knew about Eldest Fetch because during the final confrontation with the Scarecrow Harry realizes he's dealing with a fetch, but one that has been granted extra power. This suggests Nemesis involvement, though it doesn't absolutely prove it, but what else explains this? If Maeve expected Harry to die than except for continuing to reinforce Lily's trust in her, Maeve didn't have a very good day. She had to help Lily attack the Red Court which, even if it wasn't a full ally was at least a useful asset, and the annoying wizard survived another violent encounter that should have killed him.
Do you have any different explanations or other questions about unsolved Proven Guilty mysteries that; as far as you know, haven't been discussed yet?
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I would imagine that hitting the wellspring was the best case scenario, but any kind of major damage (not an unlikely situation with Harry involved) would probably have done it.
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I wonder if hitting the Well with Summer Fire helped any with containing or fighting Nemesis infection at large in the Winter Well.
Maeve probably worked with Lily intending it to completely free Lea, but I was wondering the above too.
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I suspect releasing Summer fire anywhere in AT would have had the same effect, since AT IS the heart of winter.
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I can't believe I missed the nuances you talk about in the OP. I must have done a rushed read or something or just looked at the topic and jumped in.
So here's mystery #1: Did Harry have to specifically hit the Winter Well Spring to make this plan pay off?
Eldest Fetch made it certain that Harry was going to hit the Winter Well. It may be that Mab had a deal where she offered the service of EF to another. EF job was to free Lea. EF hid behind Lea's statue within the Winter Well so it was going to get hit regardless. If EF wasn't in employ of another, then perhaps this was a way for Mab to reveal a nemfected Lea in anticipation of a Cold Day's plot. This Lea and the circumstances around it I'm sure created some doubt in Harry's mind several years later in a pivotal plot in CD. If Mab for whatever reason (maybe due to a deal she made) was prohibited from giving the order to pull her soldiers from Summer's border's herself, EF maneuvered to have them recalled without Mab giving the order. It's just that Mab didn't count on herself being endangered with the full blast of Harry's attack which included Summer's fire on EF but hit Winter's Wellspring instead.
Hitting the Winter Wellspring was critical in bringing back the Winter Armies and putting Mab in danger.
Minor mystery #2: Was Maeve surprised that Lily's plan worked? Maeve didn't think very highly of Lily so I wouldn't be surprised if she expected Lily's plan to fail. If this was the case that would mean Maeve wasn't happy she had to slow time and allow Summer to attack the Red Court, but she had no choice if she wanted to continue to deceive Lily.
It was the fallback option for nemesis. They didn't take out Mab or whatever they wanted to do in PG. So Maeve then had to make lemonhead out of lemons and feed the lie to Lily that she assisted Lily in taking out RCV and Outsiders assisting them.
EF was beholden to Mab. So, Mab used him to pay off a favor to do something she didn't want done. Or, she used him to lure Harry to fulfill a mission for her and was just killed in that endeavor. Just another sacrifice in a list of millions of such sacrifices. Or, he was nemfected and tried to play Mab's creature, Mab was suspicious. She let Harry take him out. Mab had to act like Molly meant nothing to her, EF would snap her neck at a moments notice. Nemesis was likely watching from somewhere. So, Mab and her Fetches had to look bloodthirsty vs Molly and Splattercon!!!.
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I really want to know who Molly thought she was talking to before she was taken by Fetches.
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My thought has long been that Lily wasn't smart enough to come up with that plan (as it essentially involved outsmarting Mab), and that it was actually Nemesis' idea all along to get Harry to AT. As for the super-Fetch, remember that it deliberately hid behind the Wellspring (which is why Harry tried shooting through it). Coincidence or Nemfection?
We've seen that Cat Sith can get nemfected, why not Eldest Fetch? As evidence, I'd like to point out an interesting weirdness: Earlier, when Harry/Thomas are trying to get away from the Scarecrow, he causes it to slip on ice. On the face of it, this is a little implausible. After all, we've seen (Cold Days) that even the Winter Knight has no problem running on ice, and this is a power being from deepest Winter.
To me this is circumstantial evidence that Scarecrow may have been infected and therefore doing Nemesis' bidding all along. As such, Maeve's plan to get Harry to
the Wellspring and hit it becomes slightly less implausible.
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Good catch about fetch on ice. Very similar to difference in Cat Sith attacks while being control by Nemesis. Nemesis does not have a natural feel for host's body.
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Agreed, good catch on the slipping on the ice thing.
However, we know that one of Aurora's retainers (forget which one) used glamor twice to fool Dresden about who he was (disguised himself as a ogre and as a unicorn). Why not disguise himself to look like winter (Eldest Fetch), and thus slip on the ice.
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We really need a timeline of PG-related events.
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What do you mean? Like an outline of events that happened in PG based on timeline, or something else?
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Maybe events associated with or occurring with PG. I feel like Harry stepped into the end of that problem and we missed the setup.
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Earlier, when Harry/Thomas are trying to get away from the Scarecrow, he causes it to slip on ice. On the face of it, this is a little implausible. After all, we've seen (Cold Days) that even the Winter Knight has no problem running on ice, and this is a power being from deepest Winter.
Thomas also did way the hell less damage cutting the scarecrow with a steel sword than one would ordinarily expect from a usual Fae.
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I really want to know who Molly thought she was talking to before she was taken by Fetches.
My money is on the Fetch looking like Harry, or time travel Harry being there. The former fits historically with the bad guys' methods for getting at the Carpenters, but I don't think we saw any fetches imitate a human.
The latter would be twisted, but is obviously a long shot because it requires time travel, and it doesn't explain exactly how the fetches would have gotten in; they'd have to have been with ttHarry, looking like friends or allies, for Molly to invite the group collectively.
But at that point, Harry being there becomes superfluous, because they could just look like him. The only point would be to allow him to ensure they didn't hurt anyone too much.
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My guess was a fetch disguised as a human or Sandra Marling.
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I really want to know who Molly thought she was talking to before she was taken by Fetches.
I only remember her Yelling, did her brother say she spoke too? I've figured maybe the ones who came into the door and crossed the threshold bound themselves differently to their task than hammerhands did outside.
He hurt (little Michael?) but the ones who invaded only retrieved Molly, depending on the why for of it all that act could be construed as toward helping... say by sucking her Nfected lifeforce out?
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There was a brief conversation. Here is the quote:
We listened to Daniel's recounting of the attack. It was simple enough. He'd heard Molly moving around downstairs and had come down to talk to his sister. There had been a knock at the door. Molly had gone to answer it. There had been an exchange of words, and then Molly had screamed and slammed the door.
"She came running into the living room," Daniel said. "And they broke down the door behind her and came in." He shivered. "They were going upstairs and Molly said we had to distract them, so I grabbed the poker from the fireplace and just sort of jumped them." He shook his head. "I thought they were just costumes. You know. Like... really stupid burglars or something. But the Reaper grabbed me. And he was going to... you know. Cut me with that curved knife." He gestured vaguely at his wounded arm. "Molly hit him and he dropped me."
So whatever the mask was it had to be someone Molly trusted enough to invite inside and somewhat familiar to the fetches. All three of the fetches had experience with Harry so they could have used his appearance. Could also have been Rawlings possibly. Molly might have invited a police officer in. My money is on the boyfriend Nelson. Since it was Molly's mental manipulation of him that attracted the fetches I think they were capable of taking his appearance.
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*cough* Sandra Marling *cough cough*
Don't mind me, I'm just throwing some gasoline on this speculation fire over here. ;D
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I like the thought of the boyfriend.
As to Sandra Marling ... I just don't see her as a bad guy. Not sure why other do.
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I like the thought of the boyfriend.
As to Sandra Marling ... I just don't see her as a bad guy. Not sure why other do.
Because, Rasins, she's spooky!
Nah, there's a little bit of circumstantial stuff around her; the nametag printers weren't working all week (though that's just as easily from Molly's Murphyonic Field), she's the one who got Molly working with the convention, and she's also the one who planted the idea of using fear to combat addiction in Molly's head.
Personally, I didn't even remember the character until I started coming here a while back, and I wouldn't be surprised if few average readers do, so for that reason, if no other, I don't think she's important.
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Plus Sandra Marling smacks of the same ineptitude as Ms Sommerset did in SK, that of a fishy(key word for Fomor) fae trying to come up with a normal cover name.
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As to Sandra Marling ... I just don't see her as a bad guy. Not sure why other do.
RE: Sandra, there's also something in the DFRPG about her (on how she disappeared after PG mysteriously IIRC).
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It was the RPG that got me believing something was going on with Sandra. She is,also, in the running as a possible Kumori.
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Wow, until this thread I never had a second thought about Sandra. She looked pure vanilla mortal to me. Someone used to introduce Harry to the con and provide some background. Now you guys have got me wondering. There is a lot of circumstantial evidence around her that she might be spooky. Implanting the idea of using fear speaks the loudest to me. We know (or we assume) there was some kind of background game going on with Molly. Some game designed to make sure that Molly ended up as Harry's apprentice. Ms. Marling could have been the front used to bring Molly's powers to Harry's awareness.
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Because, Rasins, she's spooky!
Nah, there's a little bit of circumstantial stuff around her; the nametag printers weren't working all week (though that's just as easily from Molly's Murphyonic Field), she's the one who got Molly working with the convention, and she's also the one who planted the idea of using fear to combat addiction in Molly's head.
Personally, I didn't even remember the character until I started coming here a while back, and I wouldn't be surprised if few average readers do, so for that reason, if no other, I don't think she's important.
Have you BEEN to a convention like this? I'm surprised the printers were working at all. LOL
And I get the other stuff.
But I didn't know about the RPG stuff. That would push my paranoid needle toward the upper scale.
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Marling is definitely connected to the supernatural. But, which faction? My best guess is Mavra. Is there anybody else that seems like a possible?
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Can the black court create thralls without killing them?
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What if she was complaisant? What if she approached a Blampire and said she'd work for them?
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What if she was complaisant? What if she approached a Blampire and said she'd work for them?
That would mean she has a knowledge of the supernatural in general and some desire to work for the Black Court in particular. Since by WOJ black court vampires are evil that does not say good things about Sandra if this is the case.
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My guess would be desperation or coercion.
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Marling is definitely connected to the supernatural. But, which faction? My best guess is Mavra. Is there anybody else that seems like a possible?
If she's important at all, my money is on Winter.
Jenny Greenteeth probably had her own flunkies.
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That would mean she has a knowledge of the supernatural in general and some desire to work for the Black Court in particular. Since by WOJ black court vampires are evil that does not say good things about Sandra if this is the case.
If she's important at all, my money is on Winter.
Jenny Greenteeth probably had her own flunkies.
I'll enjoy it if we see her again and in what role.
On the other hand, I will not be surprised if we never see her again.
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She will probably be one of those name drops or minor thread resolutions in the BAT that has people scrambling through the previous books to connect the dots.
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Yeah, Maeve has gone from minor annoyance to major problem to another link in the Nemesis chain.
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Yeah, Maeve has gone from minor annoyance to major problem to another link in the Nemesis chain.
And Aurora went from unknown to big bad in a few chapters. LOL
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The best characters are those who develop slowly over time.
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Like Butters.
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Like Butters.
Yeah, his character arc in South Park is one of the best in the series. :-D
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Minor characters developing into more is one of the biggest reasons I like long series in general and Dresden Files specifically. Just off the top of my head:
SF: Murphy, Morgan, Susan (and a whole bunch more because first book...)
FM: Alphas
GP: Thomas, Michael, Charity
SK: Mab/Eb/LtW/Elaine
DM:Sanya/Molly/Ivy/Nic
BR: Lara
DB: Butters/Ramirez/Luccio
PG: Madrigal (Kind of a stretch, but I am drawing a blank)
WK: ?
SF: Tessa/Eldest Gruff
TC: Private Eye (I know he has only appeared in one so far, but I think he will come back)
Changes: Vadderung
GS: Evil Bob (did he survive Omaha Beach?) and arguably Bonnie
CD: Sarissa/Titania
SG: Hanna (I know she might be dead, but since this is the latest book who knows)
Once again, that is just off the top of my head. I'm sure others can come up with more.
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I think the biggies are Butters and Ivy. Jim has mentioned that both of them were supposed to be basically throw-away characters.
Also I'd have to add Kincaid to the list. Though he's always been kind of larger-than-life to me.
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Yeah, his character arc in South Park is one of the best in the series. :-D
I have alot of respect for South Park Butters.
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Minor characters developing into more is one of the biggest reasons I like long series in general and Dresden Files specifically. Just off the top of my head:
SF: Murphy, Morgan, Susan (and a whole bunch more because first book...)
FM: Alphas
GP: Thomas, Michael, Charity
SK: Mab/Eb/LtW/Elaine
DM:Sanya/Molly/Ivy/Nic
BR: Lara
DB: Butters/Ramirez/Luccio
PG: Madrigal (Kind of a stretch, but I am drawing a blank)
WK: ?
SF: Tessa/Eldest Gruff
TC: Private Eye (I know he has only appeared in one so far, but I think he will come back)
Changes: Vadderung
GS: Evil Bob (did he survive Omaha Beach?) and arguably Bonnie
CD: Sarissa/Titania
SG: Hanna (I know she might be dead, but since this is the latest book who knows)
Once again, that is just off the top of my head. I'm sure others can come up with more.
For WK, Abby the precog with the little dog.
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For WK, Abby the precog with the little dog.
Thats a good one. I think we will see her again before the BAT.
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I hope so. She is ditzy in a funny way.
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What about the dead Vikings? I can't remember the name of the one who is guarding the door of the BFS, but he's been mentioned twice by name in 2 books.
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don't forget Anna Valmont, Binder, both have had their 2nd book now.
I hope we'll see more of Goodman Grey also.
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I hope so. She is ditzy in a funny way.
Last mention of her is Ghost Story, when Murphy tells Harry she was shot during Fitz's drive by, and they weren't sure if she was going to make it.
It's actually kind of odd that Harry doesn't ask about her at all for the rest of the book, considering that's in the opening hundred pages. Nobody brings her up in Cold Days (which include extensive references to the Paranet) or Skin Game (which doesn't really mention it at all), either. She's a major-ish player now, so it's a bit out of place that we never got an update on her condition, especially since it was off-screen to begin with.
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If there was no mention; then, maybe, she didn't die.
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Well, then again, there was no mention of Toto either.
I think she made it. Hope so anyway.
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one of those "no news is good news"?
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I assume she's still alive, yes. It just seems like an oversight; her getting shot is basically a throwaway line by Murphy that isn't brought up again. I know Dresden's priorities are different in the last three books, but it feels out of place for it to be totally unacknowledged.
I mean, in Turn Coat, Will and Georgia are with Andi the whole time they're off-page, and this was after Kirby was killed; sure, they're a pack, but I'd expect someone to be with Abby, you know? Especially because Toto loves Will. But everyone we see at the Chicago Justice League Meeting at Murphy's house is running around with Dresden. Heck, Murphy's hanging out at the BFS when we see her next. Especially odd given the attacks that were going on throughout Chicago at the time; she's in a hospital, and vulnerable.
Am I reading too much into it? Yes. I am. I'm nitpicking. I plead guilty.
But damn it, I love dogs and dog owners. I want to know that Abby and Toto are okay, because I'm emotionally invested in their codependent relationship.
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I assume she's still alive, yes. It just seems like an oversight; her getting shot is basically a throwaway line by Murphy that isn't brought up again. I know Dresden's priorities are different in the last three books, but it feels out of place for it to be totally unacknowledged.
I mean, in Turn Coat, Will and Georgia are with Andi the whole time they're off-page, and this was after Kirby was killed; sure, they're a pack, but I'd expect someone to be with Abby, you know? Especially because Toto loves Will. But everyone we see at the Chicago Justice League Meeting at Murphy's house is running around with Dresden. Heck, Murphy's hanging out at the BFS when we see her next. Especially odd given the attacks that were going on throughout Chicago at the time; she's in a hospital, and vulnerable.
Am I reading too much into it? Yes. I am. I'm nitpicking. I plead guilty.
But damn it, I love dogs and dog owners. I want to know that Abby and Toto are okay, because I'm emotionally invested in their codependent relationship.
Good points. She is essentially the Paranet liaison to the Chicago Justice League. A part of the inner circle. It would be strange for their to be no one with her given that she is likely in increased danger due to her role. Probably just an oversight and will be resolved in later books. Maybe in PT the Paranet will be utilized in some way and we will find out for sure what happens to her.
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Here is something else I found interesting near the end of the book when Eb and Harry are going over the case.
I grunted. "The traitor to the Council. Someone had to tell the Reds where Luccio's boot camp was hidden."
"Yes," he said, and leaned forward. "And outside of Luccio only four people knew."
I arched my brows at him. "Morgan?"
"That's one," he agreed. "Injun Joe, the Merlin, and Ancient Mai were the only others."
I whistled slowly. "Heavy hitters. But knock Morgan off your list. He didn't do it."
Ebenezar arched his brows. "No?"
I shook my head. "Guy is a dick," I said, "but he's on the level. We shouldn't tell him, but he's no traitor."
Ebenezar frowned for a moment and then nodded slowly. "Very well, then. I'll vouch for Injun Joe."
Are we assuming that Peabody also knew as a result of his duties and Eb didn't know or think to mention him? Did Peabody find out as a result of his mind bending? Or did Peabody not know and one of the four mentioned is another traitor?
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The assessment is that Peabody would have known about Luccio's boot camp, but nobody thought to include him in the list of possible traitors.
As secretary, he would have known almost everything the Senior Council knows. The locations of safe houses and camps would have been in the orders and other forms he would have had the Senior Council sign.
In addition, renting or purchasing the land for the camps, and the order to deliver supplies and equipment would have gone through him.
APG
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The assessment is that Peabody would have known about Luccio's boot camp, but nobody thought to include him in the list of possible traitors.
As secretary, he would have known almost everything the Senior Council knows. The locations of safe houses and camps would have been in the orders and other forms he would have had the Senior Council sign.
In addition, renting or purchasing the land for the camps, and the order to deliver supplies and equipment would have gone through him.
APG
Aside from that, he could have directly influenced the selection of that particular location through his mental hold on the Senior Council and Luccio. Really, it's impossible to say how many decisions by the Senior Council were actually their decisions from the start of the series.
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Aside from that, he could have directly influenced the selection of that particular location through his mental hold on the Senior Council and Luccio. Really, it's impossible to say how many decisions by the Senior Council were actually their decisions from the start of the series.
Makes you wonder if some of the anger/malice directed at Harry since his trial was actually influenced by Peabody in an effort to get rid of a starborn.
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The negativity felt towards Harry existed already at most Peabody heightened it. And, yes, people often forget the paper-pushers that organize the activities.
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Do you think Peabody was the "head secretary" back when Harry was on trial?
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Do you think Peabody was the "head secretary" back when Harry was on trial?
I think it is likely. Wizards have a long lifespan and Merlin probably does not have a high staff turnover.
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I think it is likely. Wizards have a long lifespan and Merlin probably does not have a high staff turnover.
Yeah, that makes sense. Still I kind of wish he'd been a more recent addition to the Adminomancy staff.
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Black Council types seem to be about the long con. The most dangerous foes work in the system, learn how the system works, then plant the bomb. Kinda like what Martin did to RCV.
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I think it is likely. Wizards have a long lifespan and Merlin probably does not have a high staff turnover.
There's something funny to me about the thought of Peabody murdering his way up the administration staff to become Head Secretary.
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It couldn't be any obvious murder. More likely maneuvering his way by sucking up and pointing out others problems. Ya know, how it works in most businesses.
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It couldn't be any obvious murder. More likely maneuvering his way by sucking up and pointing out others problems. Ya know, how it works in most businesses.
Or fingering others as a traitor. Burning a few fellow spies is a great way to earn trust and sow dissent.
In fact, I'd be surprised if several on the Council didn't suspect that's what Harry did when he accused Peabody.
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Or fingering others as a traitor. Burning a few fellow spies is a great way to earn trust and sow dissent.
In fact, I'd be surprised if several on the Council didn't suspect that's what Harry did when he accused Peabody.
That there is a devious thought. Leave it to those council idiots to figure out some way to still pin that on Harry.
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Where there is a will; there is a way.
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Until Harry took out the Red court, one and all.
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Harry has a long list of questionable interactions that the WC could use as grounds. And, that is just the stuff they know about. If they knew all of it; he would probably be shot on sight.