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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: groinkick on October 09, 2017, 06:18:55 AM
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Hannah told Dresden about how she defended herself (from rapists I think?), and then from the Wardens who came after her. However she was holding a Coin of the great deceiver who had intimate knowledge of a Harry Dresden. #1. He wants to rescue women. #2. He understands using lethal magic in self defense #3. He understands what it's like to have the Council breathing down your neck. I have to ask if she was being honest with Harry, or if she was simply manipulating him per Lasciel's input.
What say you?
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I say autocorrect messed with your title. :P
Though I think she was telling the truth and that's part of why she was picked for Lasciel's coin.
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I don't think she has received the coin yet. there is a definite change in personality of Hannah between Hannah first arriving at the wherehouse staging area for the assault on marcone's bank vault and when Michael replaced murphy as Dresden's + 1.
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I don't think she has received the coin yet. there is a definite change in personality of Hannah between Hannah first arriving at the wherehouse staging area for the assault on marcone's bank vault and when Michael replaced murphy as Dresden's + 1.
yeah you dont suddenly get guts to go buck naked in front of your team mates. aka she deffinetly get coin during the preparation of heist
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Her history and gender were maybe factors in Nico hiring her. Play on Dresden's weaknesses.
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yeah you dont suddenly get guts to go buck naked in front of your team mates. aka she deffinetly get coin during the preparation of heist
The way she talks about Lasciel and the Denarians, it has to have been way more time than that. She talks about them finding her and accepting her and giving her a new home... that's not something that happens in a day and a half.
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The way she talks about Lasciel and the Denarians, it has to have been way more time than that. She talks about them finding her and accepting her and giving her a new home... that's not something that happens in a day and a half.
I agree, I think Harry had it pegged pretty good when he said that she'd probably had the coin for a few weeks. but that doesn't mean that she wasn't telling the truth.
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I doubt she made it up entirely. It's a poor liar who makes stuff up that can be easily fact checked like that.
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I agree, I think Harry had it pegged pretty good when he said that she'd probably had the coin for a few weeks. but that doesn't mean that she wasn't telling the truth.
I think she was very much telling the truth. She killed with magic her rapists and the Wardens wanted to arrest her and ultimately behead her for being a warlock. This made her run, this made her bitter against the White Council. She wasn't wrong there, the same fate was waiting for young Harry save he had a unknown grandfather in high places who was willing to defend him and stand with him under the Doom... When she fled she then went among the half turned vamp resistance and made many friends... Problem there was when Harry ended the Red Court, those half turned became mere humans once more and those who were very old simply died of old age, she felt isolated and it made her bitter towards Harry.. This made her very vulnerable to be tempted by someone like Nic, who along with Laciel saw a perfect opportunity for revenge..
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I say autocorrect messed with your title. :P
Hold on... Let me just...
(https://media.tenor.com/images/e73f7cc169dc2b13423cd94e6470d175/tenor.gif)
What say you?
I say she was telling the truth... from a certain point of view.
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Hold on... Let me just...
(https://media.tenor.com/images/e73f7cc169dc2b13423cd94e6470d175/tenor.gif)
I say she was telling the truth... from a certain point of view.
Ha! That was my first thought as well.
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I say autocorrect messed with your title. :P
Haha no, I was working from memory and forgot her last name lol.
Hannah had the Coin for a while I think. The fireball that she had incredible control over killing the Fomor goons needed incredible control, and I believe Jim said that Lasciel was what gave her that precision.
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Haha no, I was working from memory and forgot her last name lol.
Hannah had the Coin for a while I think. The fireball that she had incredible control over killing the Fomor goons needed incredible control, and I believe Jim said that Lasciel was what gave her that precision.
All that says is she had the Coin post Changes... So she still could be telling the truth..
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I would argue that she is telling the truth. After all, it is the fuel for her rage as demonstrated at the last fight. You cannot get made like that over a lie you are telling your enemies.
The other argument is story wise. A strong theme in this series is that the white council is failing. Not able to identify and protect young wizards is just another sign of this. Not being able to identify when one was wronged and fix with justice is another. Ascher is a poster child for the white council's failures.
Having it all be lies adds nothing to the story and steals away drama. So it must be the truth.
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Personally, my take on it is Lasciel was torquing her anger way too hard for her to be strategic about trying to lie her way into Harry's sympathies. She just wanted to burn him down on the spot, and was confident she could overpower him in a straight fight.
I mean, she was too stupidly overaggressive to even bring a shield spell to the fight. Deceptive head games seems like it would take another tier of clear thinking beyond what she already failed to show.
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I think she was very much telling the truth. She killed with magic her rapists and the Wardens wanted to arrest her and ultimately behead her for being a warlock. This made her run, this made her bitter against the White Council. She wasn't wrong there, the same fate was waiting for young Harry save he had a unknown grandfather in high places who was willing to defend him and stand with him under the Doom...
I suspect she was telling the truth...but maybe not the complete truth, and maybe a funhouse mirror version of it.
For ex, the Council does recognize self-defense exceptions to the First Law. Did she kill her rapists in the process of defending herself...or in revenge for the assault? Did she use magic to try to defend herself...or did she go past self-defense into something else?
Of course there's always the issue of whether she was believed or not, Harry was acting in self-defense but the truth of his claims were doubted. But then again, Harry himself notes that Eb was not the only member of the Council who had sided with him, either. How much of Harry's problem was Morgan's obsessions?
Hannah's case is not necessarily a binary "Telling the truth or lying" thing. She could be telling the truth and the matter still not be entirely as she describes it. The more so with Lasciel whispering in her head...
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I read the title of this thread a few times and then came to see if it was about Archer after all :)
I think she had the coin for a while, and I belived her main story but some details are probably added at hoc in Harry's benefit.
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For ex, the Council does recognize self-defense exceptions to the First Law. Did she kill her rapists in the process of defending herself...or in revenge for the assault? Did she use magic to try to defend herself...or did she go past self-defense into something else?
They do, but without a good advocate what chance does the accused really have? When Harry was dragged before the Council to be judged, he was a scared kid with a hood over his head, they spoke in Latin, he didn't understand a word of it. What chance did he really to defend himself if Eb hadn't come forth? Given the recent history of the Council and the attitude of the Merlin, Hannah would have had no chance... And there is also this, how much knowledge of the Council and her rights did she have? If she only had rumor to go by, of course she ran... Harry was totally ignorant of both the Laws and the Council.. In my opinion if he had a clue at all he too would have ran.
Of course there's always the issue of whether she was believed or not, Harry was acting in self-defense but the truth of his claims were doubted. But then again, Harry himself notes that Eb was not the only member of the Council who had sided with him, either. How much of Harry's problem was Morgan's obsessions?
His problems with Morgan came later because he was of the same mind as the Merlin that potential warlocks once they've crossed the line cannot be reformed. It is unclear how much they sided with Harry, they were mostly afraid of this kid with so much raw power that he could take out a former Warden in a duel.
Hannah's case is not necessarily a binary "Telling the truth or lying" thing. She could be telling the truth and the matter still not be entirely as she describes it. The more so with Lasciel whispering in her head...
Oh I think it can be the truth and exactly as she described it down to her bitterness after her friends died.. The question is more about what happened after that. Here is my theory, Andriel sees and hears everything, so through him, Nic would be aware of Hannah and her plight. Nic also knows that Lasciel was rejected by Harry and is none too happy about it. So from there I don't think it would be too hard for him to arrange "contact" between Lasciel's coin and Hannah.. We know how good she is at twisting the mind, we saw what she was able to do as "Sheila" to Harry in Dead Beat, only he was saved by Butters pointing out there was no Sheila. He was saved by that and the fact he had had an earlier soul gaze with a Denarian in Death Masks and didn't want any part of that club. So it isn't too hard to believe Lasciel could manipulate someone already angry and very bitter with promises of revenge for her friends.
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Anger and indignation like what Hannah showed usually comes from genuine persecution. I believe it happened as she described, which is why she is so bitter; she defended herself, and was unjustly hunted for it. I'm not even sure she meant to kill the Wardens when they found her; fire is not delicate. But her persecution complex made her a perfect target for Nicodemus. Whether or not it happened exactly as she detailed is up for debate, but I believe she truly believed that's how it was, if that made sense.
My real question is why the Genoskwa signed up. Dude already had tons of power with no obligation. What did he have to gain by chaining himself to Ursiel? What did he want to destroy that he couldn't on his own?
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I don't think the Genoskwa was thinking about it in those kinds of terms. He just wants more power to destroy things.
You could ask the same about money. What can you buy with $10 billion that you can't with 9? Nothing, really, and yet people who have that kind of money are always trying to get more.
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My real question is why the Genoskwa signed up. Dude already had tons of power with no obligation. What did he have to gain by chaining himself to Ursiel? What did he want to destroy that he couldn't on his own?
He probably didn't see it as chaining himself. From a certain point of view, it might look like additional freedom.
For all his raw power, there were probably still some sort of restrictions on what the Genoskwa could do with his power on his own. Every supernatural nation we've seen seems bound by its own internal codes, and balances of power with its neighbours. The Bigfoots seem to be pretty strongly isolationist on the topic of not drawing attention - I wouldn't be at all surprised if a lot of his hate for River Shoulders was due to resenting that the "lotus eaters" could and would gang up on him if he indulged himself too far against humanity.
Joining the Denarians is really only 'chaining yourself' if you don't like their core objectives. If you're supportive or neutral to their overarching mission, wearing their hat instead of the one you were born with gives you a certain degree of latitude to indulge in bloodlust without blowback from your birth nation.
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The Bigfoots seem to have peaceful natures, not prone to violence or anger. Not to say that they never fight; but, are very reluctant to get dark. But, every once and a while, some is born with a tendency to go against the grain and be a real A$$H@\E.
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I believe Geno and River shoulders are different sects of their species. Like winter to summer fae.
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I tend to agree with Mira here.
I'll add that if you are accused of killing someone in self defense, then you kill some cops because you are afraid they are going to kill you, you won't get a second chance. You will be taken out.
I see the council doing the same thing when their cops are killed by someone.
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Agreed, and more so since it involves magic.
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I tend to agree with Mira here.
I'll add that if you are accused of killing someone in self defense, then you kill some cops because you are afraid they are going to kill you, you won't get a second chance. You will be taken out.
I see the council doing the same thing when their cops are killed by someone.
That's part of what I mean when I say I think she's likely telling the truth, but not necessarily all of it. We have her version, which I suspect is basically true, but not necessarily the whole truth.
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Like the 4 blind guys describing an elephant by touch, everything is POV. Though, I hate to be the blind guy who gets the rear-end.
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I tend to agree with Mira here.
I'll add that if you are accused of killing someone in self defense, then you kill some cops because you are afraid they are going to kill you,
You know they are going to kill you mostly without a trial and sometimes with a show trial without any proper defense. There is a difference.
you won't get a second chance. You will be taken out.
I see the council doing the same thing when their cops are killed by someone.
Sure but that does not make her tale not true. Those cops are just vigilantes recognized by no proper state on earth anyway. It is all self defense. Maybe self defense with excessive force but knowing how trigger happy the wardens are and how practically non existent the rehabilitation options are and how normal capital punishment is you can not expect anyone hunted by the wardens to turn herself in and not to act like a cornered animal.
That does not mean the wardens are necessarily wrong but it has nothing to do with morality, justice or even law. More with magical health control eradicating everything that can be a risk.
It can be defended because law breakers usually become big problems later but it is also a self fulfilling prophesy, this kind of hunting will drive people over the edge in the arms of people like Nicodemus or Lord Raith.
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wait im trying to remember wasnt Aschers attackers 3 vanilla mortal thugs and she already knew how to wield a decent bit of power.
That is completely different than if she was defending against a warden of the white council who had been wielding magic for many decades as dresden did.
didn't Dresden mention in ghost story how he would laugh at all the high school bullies because it would be so ridiculously easy for him to destroy them.
a few sparks thrown at their faces would have scared off the rapists or she could have just halfway burned them to death then slit their throats.
id say its probably true but it would have been very easy for her to survive without killing with magic and wouldn't fall under self defense with magic.
The exemption is only for the most extreme of cases.
also with geno maybe he was the some weakling emo bigfoot and the only reason he was so scary was because of the coin
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I don't think we will ever get Hannah's whole story. Bad stuff happens in every life. Elaine took her bad stuff and became a detective. Murphy took her father's death and became a cop. Hannah took her bad stuff and became a destroyer.
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You know they are going to kill you mostly without a trial and sometimes with a show trial without any proper defense. There is a difference.Sure but that does not make her tale not true. Those cops are just vigilantes recognized by no proper state on earth anyway.
They're recognized by the White Council, which is what matters. The Council would point out that they never authorized any state to be involved in the issue.
That does not mean the wardens are necessarily wrong but it has nothing to do with morality, justice or even law. More with magical health control eradicating everything that can be a risk.
True. The Laws are much more like prophylactic measures than they are 'justice.'
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They're recognized by the White Council, which is what matters. The Council would point out that they never authorized any state to be involved in the issue.
Every terrorist organisation could say that.
True. The Laws are much more like prophylactic measures than they are 'justice.'
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I like that phrase "prophylactic measure." The wardens are the condoms of the White Council. They keep you from feeling the really fun stuff that can get you into bad trouble.
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While you're being attacked by rapists is generally not when you're thinking tactically and analytically enough to say, "OK, what's the minimal amount of force needed to safely make these guys back off."
When you're being attacked like that, the much more likely thing to go through your head is more along the lines of, "GET OFF ME GET AWAY DIE DIE DIE!"
And, again, her power is fire. It's already hard to control, let alone when you're overcome with fight-or-flight emotion. "Just burn them half to death" is just not a reasonable suggestion. It's even less reasonable than the whole "shoot to wound" argument, and that's saying something.
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The Wardens are of particular interest to me, after some extended study of criminal justice programs. Dresden uses cop analogies for them, but that doesn't really apply.
They're Special Forces. They're not investigating a crime, or bringing in someone for questioning, or even bringing in someone for a trial. They're getting to a high-priority target. If they can reasonably take that person down without undue risk to themselves, great. If not, lethal measures are necessary. You're dealing with warlocks, those who have enough power and a willingness to disregard the Laws. They can summon demons, kill with a ritual, or invade someone's mind if they're not prepared for it. They're dangerous threats that need to be neutralized.
The ones that get a trial are usually just for show, but that's because they always backslide. When a warlock backslides, people die. The two trials that we see include the Merlin personally soulgazing one (who was also obviously insane), and a full confession from another. Even Harry, who has huge reservations about the Wardens, recognizes that there really is only one way to deal with true warlocks. He argues for prevention, not clemency.
Anyway, that's what I think about it.
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I doubt she made it up entirely. It's a poor liar who makes stuff up that can be easily fact checked like that.
But Ascher had a very good liar on her side, and there was no way that Harry could have fact-checked her claims before they would have been no longer relevant.
That said, I think it's more like Lasciel to play reverse psychology on Harry by telling him the truth in this instance, just to shake his faith in magic in case he succeeded in killing Ascher and then investigated her past more thoroughly.
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That's my take too.
Hannah was deliberately chosen as Lasciel's host precisely because of her history, gender, and personality, all to fuck with Dresden, make him more likely to overlook any suspicions he has, and more willing to hesitate when the time came.
Suffice to say that this failed.
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Every terrorist organisation could say that.
And if they have the power to back it up, it's true. At the end of the day, anybody can claim authority, but to borrow a line from Tolkien, "a king he is who can hold his own'.
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The Wardens are of particular interest to me, after some extended study of criminal justice programs. Dresden uses cop analogies for them, but that doesn't really apply.
They're Special Forces. They're not investigating a crime, or bringing in someone for questioning, or even bringing in someone for a trial. They're getting to a high-priority target. If they can reasonably take that person down without undue risk to themselves, great. If not, lethal measures are necessary. You're dealing with warlocks, those who have enough power and a willingness to disregard the Laws. They can summon demons, kill with a ritual, or invade someone's mind if they're not prepared for it. They're dangerous threats that need to be neutralized.
The ones that get a trial are usually just for show, but that's because they always backslide. When a warlock backslides, people die. The two trials that we see include the Merlin personally soulgazing one (who was also obviously insane), and a full confession from another. Even Harry, who has huge reservations about the Wardens, recognizes that there really is only one way to deal with true warlocks. He argues for prevention, not clemency.
Anyway, that's what I think about it.
Harry himself once told Karrin that over the centuries, the Council has made many efforts to rehabilitate warlocks, and it always failed with the ones who have really gone bad. Even Harry has had to reluctantly admit that the Council's attitude might be necessary, much as he loathes it.
That's what I meant above by 'prophylactic measures'. The Council treats warlocks less as criminals and more like plague carriers. Whether they're guilty or innocent, whether it's their fault or not, they cannot be allowed to spread the plague. Likewise, protecting the public from a potential warlock takes priority over fairness. That's pretty harsh, but at the same time, stop and think how much harm a warlock can do if he or she runs loose for long.
That said, the Council could use a better agitprop operation, for their own sake and the sake of yet-to-fall potential warlocks.
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And if they have the power to back it up, it's true. At the end of the day, anybody can claim authority, but to borrow a line from Tolkien, "a king he is who can hold his own'.
But a state does not hide. It claims territory and authority over people in a clear visible way. Terrorist organisations and criminal gangs hide.
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But a state does not hide. It claims territory and authority over people in a clear visible way. Terrorist organisations and criminal gangs hide.
Criminal gangs and Cable companies ALSO claim territory and authority over people in a clearly visible way in some areas, but that doesn't make them states.
The White Council has existed in it's current state since (iirc) before the fall of Rome, as a International Power.
If anything, their relative age and power would make them the legitimate state by the right of 'here first suckaz', and other nations the criminals trying to take their territory.
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Criminal gangs and Cable companies ALSO claim territory and authority over people in a clearly visible way in some areas, but that doesn't make them states.
Necessary but not sufficient condition.
The White Council has existed in it's current state since (iirc) before the fall of Rome, as a International Power.
More like a secret society. You could make a youtube conspiracy video about them.
If anything, their relative age and power would make them the legitimate state by the right of 'here first suckaz', and other nations the criminals trying to take their territory.
They made no visible claim. No flag, signpost, travel documents, international relations with other states here on earth, ....
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I think that the WC is trying to balance out their place between two worlds, the mortal and the supernatural.
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I think that the WC is trying to balance out their place between two worlds, the mortal and the supernatural.
I think it more about finding themselves less relevant in a modern world, the time of the village wise woman or man has past. Kids who show signs of talent no longer have any place to go or any knowledge of what it all means. All they know is they have these cool talents and like normal kids everywhere they experiment with them and get into trouble. Meanwhile the WC has been decimated by wars over the last thousand years and have spent their time navel gazing unlike Harry who has attempted to fit into the modern world openly as a practicing wizard. As a result, zero tolerance has evolved into not just being the safest course for both worlds but the easiest to implement. But as we all know zero tolerance policies are seriously flawed because there isn't a one size fits all and justice usually isn't served by it... But those those who advocate it will argue, it keeps everyone safe so it doesn't matter that perhaps a few talented babies who might make great wizards someday are thrown out with the bath water.
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The Paranet helps but the WC should expand it by hiring non-magic users to monitor the internet for potentials.
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"The Paranet? Isn't that that Warlock Dresden's spy network? No way we can trust it"
- half the WC right now.
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Good point, but maybe duplicate and adapt some of its functions.
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Good point, but maybe duplicate and adapt some of its functions.
I agree, except:
"If you ask me, this whole intra-webs thing is just a bunch of hooey. Darn kids messing round with their fancy do-dads. Why, back in my day...."
- The other half of the WC right now
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Well, could always put Luccio in charge. She seems tech-savy and has some connections.
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Well, could always put Luccio in charge. She seems tech-savy and has some connections.
Yes, leave the wardens in charge and see how many members you have left after they start killing people. ;D
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Yes, leave the wardens in charge and see how many members you have left after they start killing people. ;D
Luccio really does not seem the type to just start slaughtering her way through a group of minor talents.
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Luccio really does not seem the type to just start slaughtering her way through a group of minor talents.
I agree that Luccio might not; some others I am less certain, but not Luccio.
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Luccio really does not seem the type to just start slaughtering her way through a group of minor talents.
There is a lot of room for own initiative with the wardens, it is mostly hands of management. Types like Morgan can do whatever they like and make reports later or not.
Some distance between the parameters and the white council is advisable.
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They kill warlocks. Even Morgan didn't just up and execute Dresden when he suspected he was murdering folks with magic. He waited for the council's judgment and tried to get evidence or catch him in the act. If Morgan could do whatever he liked and make a report later or not, Dresden would've been dead in Storm Front.
I think you're confusing the average talent's fear of the Wardens with how they actually operate.
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They kill warlocks. Even Morgan didn't just up and execute Dresden when he suspected he was murdering folks with magic. He waited for the council's judgment and tried to get evidence or catch him in the act. If Morgan could do whatever he liked and make a report later or not, Dresden would've been dead in Storm Front.
I think you're confusing the average talent's fear of the Wardens with how they actually operate.
When Harry tried to bring in Molly for trial the merlins reaction to was something like "why did you not kill her yet" and "you are wasting time". Even with a warden they do not really trust like Harry the overview is minimal.
I am sure a lot of wardens do their jobs as expected but there is a lot of room for abusing power, cutting corners, acting on tunnel vision, ....
And little chance of discovery. In such an organisation you need only a few bad apples to get a reputation among people who do not dare to complain because there is no independent complains department and wardens will cover each other. Because that is what members of closed organisations do if they get the chance.
And if a bad apple is in a position of influence others will copy his behaviour because they think it is normal.
Wardens have power. People behave differently around them which makes them less aware what is going on.
And most importantly pressure to get results can do the rest. The whole structure promotes abuse of power and no real brakes on it. The only brakes are the wardens own consciences. That is not enough.
So I do not think they will all the run out to kill the kids but if one does there is little to stop him and other abuse will even be more likely.
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Any person with power has the opportunity to abuse that power. The best that can be done is checks and balances and hope the person with the power has corresponding morality.
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They kill warlocks. Even Morgan didn't just up and execute Dresden when he suspected he was murdering folks with magic. He waited for the council's judgment and tried to get evidence or catch him in the act. If Morgan could do whatever he liked and make a report later or not, Dresden would've been dead in Storm Front.
I think you're confusing the average talent's fear of the Wardens with how they actually operate.
Morgan was an honorable man who had a near fanatical belief in the laws of the White Council. It's unlikely that every warden has such honor, and belief in those laws. Morgan in some ways is very similar to Michael. Justin was also a warden, he chose to ignore the laws, and abuse his position.
Morgan and Justin were opposite ends of the spectrum. It's probably the case that the majority of the wardens fall somewhere in the middle of usually following the laws, and crossing the line on occasion. Especially if someone they care for, or a fellow warden had been killed recently, and they have had their fill of trying to face warlocks on uneven terms.
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On the subject of warden morality, consider the looser conscription standards since the start of the war with the Red Court. Harry mentions that they finished the war with more wardens than they started with because of it, but what kind of people were brought in? The common denominator is that they're capable in combat, not that they're loyal, upstanding citizens; see Dresden's conscription. I find it hard to believe that some of them weren't a little trigger-happy in the magic department.
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Some of them probably are; but, not all of them. For every happy hunter of warlocks there is a Carlos showing maturity and a whole spectrum of personalities in-between.
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When Harry tried to bring in Molly for trial the merlins reaction to was something like "why did you not kill her yet" and "you are wasting time". Even with a warden they do not really trust like Harry the overview is minimal.
Because she was a warlock.
The paranetters are not warlocks.
That's what it boils down to. The Wardens might be fanatical, but they're fanatical about killing warlocks, not just lopping the heads off any minor practitioner they can get away with.
They don't have a quota. There isn't some "results" leader board they have to keep up on that's going to make them want to kill more people.
In fact, Harry makes it explicitly clear in White Night that the people who make up the Paranet are explicitly under the protection of the White Council. They have a hotline that minor talents can call to get people like Harry to show up. Half the plot of White Night was framing the Wardens because otherwise the minor talents would have been able to call them for protection.
So I don't get it. Why do you seem to think the Wardens are going to look at a list of innocent minor talents and consider it a hit list?
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Thank you, Mr. Death. I think I was approaching the subject in the wrong way.
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When Harry tried to bring in Molly for trial the merlins reaction to was something like "why did you not kill her yet" and "you are wasting time". Even with a warden they do not really trust like Harry the overview is minimal.
I am sure a lot of wardens do their jobs as expected but there is a lot of room for abusing power, cutting corners, acting on tunnel vision, ....
And little chance of discovery. In such an organisation you need only a few bad apples to get a reputation among people who do not dare to complain because there is no independent complains department and wardens will cover each other. Because that is what members of closed organisations do if they get the chance.
And if a bad apple is in a position of influence others will copy his behaviour because they think it is normal.
Wardens have power. People behave differently around them which makes them less aware what is going on.
And most importantly pressure to get results can do the rest. The whole structure promotes abuse of power and no real brakes on it. The only brakes are the wardens own consciences. That is not enough.
So I do not think they will all the run out to kill the kids but if one does there is little to stop him and other abuse will even be more likely.
As I said, for various reasons some of them perhaps understandable, the White Council's justice for breakers of the Laws, has become a zero tolerance policy...
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Not all magic users who are not WC are warlocks. Some are doing good and just lack the juice to leave amateur level.
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Because she was a warlock.
The paranetters are not warlocks.
That's what it boils down to. The Wardens might be fanatical, but they're fanatical about killing warlocks, not just lopping the heads off any minor practitioner they can get away with.
They don't have a quota. There isn't some "results" leader board they have to keep up on that's going to make them want to kill more people.
In fact, Harry makes it explicitly clear in White Night that the people who make up the Paranet are explicitly under the protection of the White Council. They have a hotline that minor talents can call to get people like Harry to show up. Half the plot of White Night was framing the Wardens because otherwise the minor talents would have been able to call them for protection.
So I don't get it. Why do you seem to think the Wardens are going to look at a list of innocent minor talents and consider it a hit list?
No, I am saying that if there is abuse of power there are no checks and balances to stop it and it can easily spread. I expect it to be covered up as well to protect the good name of the wardens.
The whole organisation is structured in such a way that begs for abuse of power. How much abuse of power there really is is for Jim to decide but I would not trust an organisation structured like that in the real world at all.
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But there are reports -- Dresden makes mention of making them. Morgan must have someone he has to report to, otherwise why wouldn't he have just summarily executed Dresden in the first book?
You're making some pretty stern pronouncements about their procedures, but we don't even see their procedures. You're assuming there's no oversight at all, when there is evidence -- like I said, Dresden makes reports -- that there is.
There's a White Council hotline that minor talents and even normals can call. Even before the Paranet.
And a lot of potential White Council members could come from the minor talents. It's in the White Council's best interests to have good relationships with groups like the Paranet because they are actively harmed by having a bad relationship with them.
Again, it's notable that the start of the plot in White Night is specifically framing the Wardens so that the victims don't go to the White Council for help -- i.e., if Vittorio and Madrigal hadn't gone out of the way to stop them, the minor talents could have scuttled the whole plot by calling on the White Council.
That wouldn't be the case if the Wardens were a group that would kill minor talents just because they could get away with it.
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But a state does not hide. It claims territory and authority over people in a clear visible way. Terrorist organisations and criminal gangs hide.
Doesn't matter. If you've go the power, you get to set the rules.
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Good point, but maybe duplicate and adapt some of its functions.
It's a potential part of the solution, but by itself it isn't enough, and could even make things worse.
Imagine you're a kid/young adult (age anywhere from 10 to 20) who had discovered your talent, and that other magical talents exist, but that's all you know. So you go looking for information, and you find the Paranet. Fine.
How do you know you can trust it? It's one more Internet-based data source among countless other occult, supernatural, and scientific sites.
The bad guys are likely to set up their own real-looking 'occult mutual help associations', too. Should our hypothetical youth trust the Paranet, the Metanet, the Magenet, or the Psinet? They're all going to have some stuff in common, but how does he or she know that only the Paranet is giving it all straight?
It's a variation on the same old hypothetical I've cited several times over the years: a new talent discovers two textbooks. One is Elementary Magic by Ebenezar McCoy. One is Introduction to Magic by Professor Relmmek. Both purport to be basic textbooks for the beginning talent.
How does our uninformed talent know he should trust McCoy and burn the Relmmek book? McCoy's book starts out with the Seven Laws at the beginning, but how does the new talent know that that's the straight dope, or not?
The problem has no ready solution. The same problem applies to the Paranet.
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Because she was a warlock.
The paranetters are not warlocks.
That's what it boils down to. The Wardens might be fanatical, but they're fanatical about killing warlocks, not just lopping the heads off any minor practitioner they can get away with.
They don't have a quota. There isn't some "results" leader board they have to keep up on that's going to make them want to kill more people.
But that doesn't make them much less terrifying to the rest of the magical world. That fear is quite understandable. Power is scary, at the best of times, and the Wardens have a bunch of it, both magical and political/social.
Also, the Wardens look like the bad guys to the uninformed talents. How can you be the good guys when you behead 10 year olds for breaking rules they never heard of? They are most or less the good guys, but they don't look that way to the outsiders and the uniformed.
The Wardens and the well-informed in the DV know why the good guys sometimes behead 10 year olds, but not nearly all the minor talents know it. Of those who do know, a lot of them aren't going to want to believe it.
In fact, Harry makes it explicitly clear in White Night that the people who make up the Paranet are explicitly under the protection of the White Council. They have a hotline that minor talents can call to get people like Harry to show up. Half the plot of White Night was framing the Wardens because otherwise the minor talents would have been able to call them for protection.
This is part of why the Council needs a better PR operation, for everyone's sake. Even the Paranetters fear the Wardens, it was very easy to frame them because everybody is already scared of them. That fear is not entirely justified...but it's not 100% unjustified, either. The Wardens have a deserved reputation for ruthlessness. They're not as ruthless and indifferent as people think they are, but they are ruthless enough to make people nervous around them.
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But there are reports -- Dresden makes mention of making them. Morgan must have someone he has to report to, otherwise why wouldn't he have just summarily executed Dresden in the first book?
Because his personal ethics did not support that. Harry was surprised as well. Nothing would have stopped him as nothing had stopped his earlier and later abuse of power.
You're making some pretty stern pronouncements about their procedures, but we don't even see their procedures. You're assuming there's no oversight at all, when there is evidence -- like I said, Dresden makes reports -- that there is.
You can put whatever you like in those reports. The wardens are fundamentally understaffed.
There's a White Council hotline that minor talents and even normals can call. Even before the Paranet.
And a lot of potential White Council members could come from the minor talents. It's in the White Council's best interests to have good relationships with groups like the Paranet because they are actively harmed by having a bad relationship with them.
One would think so. Mark that even if there is a trial there is no defense and the accused is not allowed to understand the trial or say anything. That does not promote trust in the judicial system in any way.
Again, it's notable that the start of the plot in White Night is specifically framing the Wardens so that the victims don't go to the White Council for help -- i.e., if Vittorio and Madrigal hadn't gone out of the way to stop them, the minor talents could have scuttled the whole plot by calling on the White Council.
It is notable how easy that is and nobody gets the idea of noticing the white council about it in any way. They do not know about any channel to do that safely.
That wouldn't be the case if the Wardens were a group that would kill minor talents just because they could get away with it.
They are not. It is just that if one of the wardens decides to kill a minor talent because it suits him or he needs someone to carry the blame or he really thinks he is guilty but does not have the time for consulting others or for whatever reason there is not much people can do about it and no real chance to get a complaint taken seriously unless you know someone.
And not just because he can get away with it. Few people kill just because they can get away with it but there is clearly a culture of killing warlocks in stead of giving them a trial because that is simpler and less time consuming. The warden on the phone when Harry called in proven guilty even thought they did not do hearings anymore.
Mark also Bob’s reaction when Harry gets a mantle in dead beat. Bob is being Bob of course but those jokes carry truth.
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As Billy Joel sang "It's a matter of trust." Who do you trust, the experienced and reliable warden/cop or the teenaged warlock/punk that says the warden was mean to me? One has done his duty for awhile and the other ignorantly thinks they know everything.
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Arjan, please point me to any examples we have of the Wardens executing non-warlock minor talents without cause and without verifying that Black Magic has happened.
Your argument seems predicated on the idea that giving the Wardens access to the Paranet (spoiler alert: They already have access to it; Carlos and Luccio are aware and involved to some extent) will make this not just possible, but apparently inevitable.
Because his personal ethics did not support that. Harry was surprised as well. Nothing would have stopped him as nothing had stopped his earlier and later abuse of power.
And Morgan was considered among the "worst" of the fanatical Wardens. So, the guy seen as the unreasonable boogie-man, the man most likely to, in Dresden's words, lop the heads off baby bunnies if he suspected them of black magic...
... also has strict ethics and a devout adherence to the laws such that he doesn't abuse them.
Kiiiiiiiinda makes you think that maybe, just maybe, that kind of ethics and adherence to the laws is something that's purposefully instilled in the Wardens, doesn't it?
You can put whatever you like in those reports. The wardens are fundamentally understaffed.
What are you basing this on? Someone reads Harry's reports. There is oversight. Harry's position is one of oversight.
They were understaffed because of the war, and then they bounced back to even more numbers than they had before it started.
One would think so. Mark that even if there is a trial there is no defense and the accused is not allowed to understand the trial or say anything. That does not promote trust in the judicial system in any way.
Again: This is for warlocks.
After the Warden has found evidence of Black Magic and had it verified by another person, either another Warden or someone like the Merlin. Both the trials we have seen on the page have this happen explicitly -- the Korean kid has the Merlin examine the victims and soul gaze him. Molly has Carlos independently examine her victims and verify that Black Magic has happened.
You're trying to argue that one Warden can just decide willy-nilly that black magic happened and execute whomever he wants without any repercussions or oversight when what we see of the trials indicates the opposite.
It is notable how easy that is and nobody gets the idea of noticing the white council about it in any way. They do not know about any channel to do that safely.
Yes, there is a fear of the White Council, just like a lot of people have a fear and distrust of the police. That doesn't mean that the Wardens actually are going around and killing whoever they want whenever they want.
They are not. It is just that if one of the wardens decides to kill a minor talent because it suits him or he needs someone to carry the blame or he really thinks he is guilty but does not have the time for consulting others or for whatever reason there is not much people can do about it and no real chance to get a complaint taken seriously unless you know someone.
Does Luccio seem like the type of commander who doesn't care what her troops are doing?
Does Morgan seem like the type of commander that wouldn't follow up to make sure the laws are being enforced properly?
Those are your top two. They're the ones who set the example for the rest of the Wardens. And they're two scrupulous people who adhere to the Laws and their procedures as if they're gospel.
To date, we haven't seen a Warden who would act the way you're suggesting. The closest we have is probably Morgan who, even though he had decided in his own mind that Dresden was guilty, waited until he thought he had proof before taking action.
And not just because he can get away with it. Few people kill just because they can get away with it but there is clearly a culture of killing warlocks in stead of giving them a trial because that is simpler and less time consuming. The warden on the phone when Harry called in proven guilty even thought they did not do hearings anymore.
The Warden on the phone was also young and they were, again, at war. Most Warlocks that are combat-capable just don't come quietly. Yes, there is a culture of killing Warlocks. Again: Killing Warlocks, which even the most fanatical Wardens define as "People who have actually, provably violated the Laws of Magic because either I found evidence in their victims or they're literally throwing fireballs and trying to kill me at this particular moment."
So, please, point me to a Warden who's killed an innocent minor practitioner just because they suspected, but hadn't proved, Black Magic.
The thing you're taking as a certainty has just plain not been demonstrated as happening in the books.
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Warlocks are not human? That is exactly why being branded a warlock is something to be feared by minor talents more so because some wardens can be very creative in explaining the laws when it suits them, see Morgan.
Who did not trust his own system, and he should know.
Who also showed that the white councils attitude to fair trials is not restricted to warlocks. Nobody accused Morgan of being a warlock but he was hooded anyway and had no defense exept for what nepotism brought him.
We know the warden counted members like Justin so expecting exemplary behaviour from all of them is not realistic. And more important thee is no appeal possible and the whole affair can be finished on site with whoever available.
So much power with so little oversight and no appeal or second opinion is scary. It is not good for people even the best of them.
And what Bob said was not a lie, with that cloack he can.
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Again, you're laying out the fears that members of the Paranet might have.
I'm talking about the reality of the situation.
You mention "once they start killing people" as if it's just a given that the Wardens will start executing people on the list just because they have the list.
I'm arguing that A. the Wardens already have the list and B. that is just not a reasonable, realistic expectation given what we've seen of the Wardens.
Morgan's trial was very much a unique situation. Morgan trusted his own system plenty, enough to literally devote his entire life to it. Saying he ran from the Wardens when he was framed does not mean he doesn't trust the Wardens and the White Council as a whole. That whole book is a huge outlier, not indicative of how the White Council or the Wardens normally do things.
Morgan being pursued because he was framed does not indicate that the Wardens are just going to kill whoever they want with no oversight. The idea that there isn't oversight just isn't supported -- there are reports, there are regional commanders, and there are mentions of people reading those reports and following up with their subordinates.
Is it perfect? No, of course not, nothing is. Do people have fear of being branded a Warlock? Yes, just like people have fear of being accused of normal crimes.
But none of that means that the Wardens are just going to start executing people just because they have access to the Paranet.
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Let me suggest an alternative to there being no Wardens. Instead of trying to track, determine guilt either by their actions and/or a soulgaze, and executing them; you let warlocks do whatever they want. Wouldn't that be a nice world to live in; but, only if you are a warlock.
What alternative is there to execution? Rehabilitation, as if criminals and drug addicts never relapse. Which is basically what a warlock is with the added bonus of magical ability. Containment, stick every warlock in DR. How long before it exceeds capacity and/or becomes a source of interest of evil elements?
A person born with magical aptitude is given both a gift and a burden. A gift to use power that few have. A burden to use that gift properly. Would it be it better if novice magic users knew that the WC existed and that there are consequences and punishments for misuse of power? Maybe. But ignorance of the WC does free the novice from the responsibility that hurting others for selfish cause is wrong.That queasy feeling you get before you do bad is not indigestion it is the rumblings of guilt.
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A police force is there to find and catch criminals but there is a reason police and judge are seperated in a modern society. There are all kinds of safeguards to be build in the wardens simply lack and that is no accident.
That does not mean the wardens will go on a killing spree just for the fun of it but it means there is a lot of room build in for problems to go undetected and I don’t think that is an accident.
Jim build that room to begin with to be used for plot purposes.
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I guess I am confused. Are you more interested in the holes within the warden system as a problematic plot device or as an organizational deficiency?
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You're still painting the Wardens as this unregulated, unsupervised group. But they are regulated and they are supervised. They're a military command structure -- yes, members operate with a degree of autonomy, but we know from Dresden's experience that they meet together with a fair amount of frequency, they know each other, and they keep each other briefed on their cases and what they're doing.
They are, as Murphy puts it, a bureaucracy. They're not lone-rangers taking the laws into their own hands without anyone to answer to. We know by name at least three people that they can and do answer to.
What we still don't have is an example of a Warden abusing his or her power in the way that you're suggesting is all but inevitable.
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You're still painting the Wardens as this unregulated, unsupervised group. But they are regulated and they are supervised. They're a military command structure -- yes, members operate with a degree of autonomy, but we know from Dresden's experience that they meet together with a fair amount of frequency, they know each other, and they keep each other briefed on their cases and what they're doing.
They are, as Murphy puts it, a bureaucracy. They're not lone-rangers taking the laws into their own hands without anyone to answer to. We know by name at least three people that they can and do answer to.
What we still don't have is an example of a Warden abusing his or her power in the way that you're suggesting is all but inevitable.
Which is not surprising because we have so few examples of everything and what we have is most probably atypical anyway.
It is just that what we know about the structure (no separation of powers, No appeal, fast convictions, trial outcome can be political motivated,...). The circumstances (war, lack of manpower, too many warlocks, gerontocracy, nepotism). And human nature abuse is to be expected. The only question is the scale.
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Which is not surprising because we have so few examples of everything and what we have is most probably atypical anyway.
Atypical which way, though?
Most of our perspective is through Dresden, a man who felt hounded by the Wardens in general and Morgan in particular for most of his adult life.
The view we have is skewed -- and for most of the series, it's skewed to see the Wardens as worse than they actually are. And then Harry meets the Wardens and starts working directly with them and, hey, his view has softened considerably since he put on the grey cloak.
That, to me, says that the Wardens are not the boogie-men that Dresden paints them as for the first few books.
It is just that what we know about the structure (no separation of powers, No appeal, fast convictions, trial outcome can be political motivated,...). The circumstances (war, lack of manpower, too many warlocks, gerontocracy, nepotism). And human nature abuse is to be expected. The only question is the scale.
The war was probably a good thing for the Wardens, at least in this respect. It cleared out a lot of the old guard -- the ones who would be the most political, the most hardline, and replaced most of them with younger Wardens like Harry and Carlos. By the end of the war, the Wardens' numbers have increased substantially from the pre-war days, and the vast majority of them are going to be the younger crowd.
Hell, Harry's one of the guys training them these days. AAAA Wizardry's whole framing story is Harry lecturing a class of young Wardens-to-be on how to properly assess, investigate and solve cases.
If anything, the newest crop of Wardens should be a hell of a lot more open and friendly toward the Paranet and the people in it, considering Carlos and Harry are two of the guys directly overseeing and training them and all.
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Many of the younger ones might have been on the internet before their magic kicked it. So bonus on knowledge.
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Warlocks are not human? That is exactly why being branded a warlock is something to be feared by minor talents more so because some wardens can be very creative in explaining the laws when it suits them, see Morgan.
Who did not trust his own system, and he should know.
Who also showed that the white councils attitude to fair trials is not restricted to warlocks. Nobody accused Morgan of being a warlock but he was hooded anyway and had no defense exept for what nepotism brought him.
We know the warden counted members like Justin so expecting exemplary behaviour from all of them is not realistic. And more important thee is no appeal possible and the whole affair can be finished on site with whoever available.
So much power with so little oversight and no appeal or second opinion is scary. It is not good for people even the best of them.
And what Bob said was not a lie, with that cloack he can.
In non-magic human society, people go to jail. There are several aspects of this: Punishment, possible rehabilitation and to separate people, who break the law from people, who don't break the laws.
With black magic, there is the issue of black magic corrupting the mind and soul. Once a magic user does enough bad things, their minds are irreparable. That is the premise we have here. Molly rewired heads of how many people? 2? Note her impulse control issues. And she had very good intentions.
@Arjan: Your whole argument is basically "anarchy for everyone and people will naturally behave well" combined with "Death to the fascist oppressors!". This doesn't hold water in any society for long, Mr. Shoe. If a society is to have rules, there need be enforcers who make sure that the rules don't get broken. It's plain and simple like that. Why, do you ask? For the very same reason, why communism can't work efficiently and tends to break down eventually. Because of human nature. Most human are naturally selfish creatures, even though during our lives in some civilizations, we learn to behave a lot less selfishly. And yes, there are some people who for one reason or another are fairly little selfish or even not at all. But those are few and far between.
Now, to explain, why it's counterintuitive for wardens to abuse their power:
1) Even talented mages can be born from less talented mages. Therefore if mages wish to live on as a species, they actually need to protect the lesser talents ] ref.: White Night ]. So if one warden would feel like bullying/killing some lesser talents, another warden would feel compelled to stop him.
2) Truly strong people don't feel the need to bully the weak. It may sound like a cliché, but it's also the truth. Because weak people pose no challenge. Strong people became strong by overcoming real challenges. Same thing goes for smart people. And if said person feels pride in his achievements, bullying weak people tarnishes his own self-image.
3) It's one thing to keep people scared of wardens. It keeps them on their toes. Let's say, that a single warden went rogue and his targets don't manage to tell anyone for some reason [ you know, because there are no phones, no Internet, no mail, hell, not even a fire to send smoke signals. ]. I'd like to ask you a few questions, if you don't mind:
a) Why wouldn't the targets simply run away?
b) Holding a hostage is exhausting and you have to keep them alive, if you really, really want to earn your De Sade badge. How do you do this while actually performing your Warden duties?
... and finally...
c) Wardens are not immortal. They are not gods. They may be very powerful but that doesn't mean that they are unbeatable with any other means than magic. And while magic is nifty, I read somewhere, that it's very difficult to cast a spell when someone bashes you over the head or kicks you into a garbage can. So, pray, explain to me: how precisely would said rogue warden make sure that his victims wouldn't stick together, stand up to him and either knock him out or even kill him?
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In non-magic human society, people go to jail. There are several aspects of this: Punishment, possible rehabilitation and to separate people, who break the law from people, who don't break the laws.
With black magic, there is the issue of black magic corrupting the mind and soul. Once a magic user does enough bad things, their minds are irreparable. That is the premise we have here. Molly rewired heads of how many people? 2? Note her impulse control issues. And she had very good intentions.
@Arjan: Your whole argument is basically "anarchy for everyone and people will naturally behave well" combined with "Death to the fascist oppressors!".
That is not my argument at all. There are simply too many people on earth to make a stateless solution possible. We need to live together and that means a structure with law. And also a structure with checks and balances.
The heart of the matter is not that the wardens do something about warlocks, that is necessary. The heart of the matter is that the wardens lack most of the safeguards, checks and balances we want organisations with power to have.
There is no separation of police and justice system. There is no appeal, no defence apart from what nepotism can give you and some wardens can go on unsupervised for quite some time.
It is precisely because I have no illusions about human nature and because a job with the wardens will already attract violent people that I am concerned.
Justin was a warden. Harry can write in his reports whatever he likes and he does. Morgan can abuse his power and trials can be politically motivated show trials. It is simply not good enough for an organisation with that much power.
This doesn't hold water in any society for long, Mr. Shoe. If a society is to have rules, there need be enforcers who make sure that the rules don't get broken. It's plain and simple like that. Why, do you ask? For the very same reason, why communism can't work efficiently and tends to break down eventually.
Which communism are we talking about? Stalin was very good in enforcing his rules. He did not have those pesky checks and balances though.
Most dissidents were not economically motivated. They had problems with living in a state that had no respect for human rights, no separation of powers, no safeguards against any abuse of power by the (secret) police.
Because of human nature. Most human are naturally selfish creatures, even though during our lives in some civilizations, we learn to behave a lot less selfishly. And yes, there are some people who for one reason or another are fairly little selfish or even not at all. But those are few and far between.
Now, to explain, why it's counterintuitive for wardens would abuse their power:
1) Even talented mages can be born from less talented mages. Therefore if mages wish to live on as a species, they actually need to protect the lesser talents ] ref.: White Night ]. So if one warden would feel like bullying/killing some lesser talents, another warden would feel compelled to stop him.
2) Truly strong people don't feel the need to bully the weak. It may sound like a cliché, but it's also the truth. Because weak people pose no challenge. Strong people became strong by overcoming real challenges. Same thing goes for smart people. And if said person feels pride in his achievements, bullying weak people tarnishes his own self-image.
3) It's one thing to keep people scared of wardens. It keeps them on their toes. Let's say, that a single warden went rogue and his targets don't manage to tell anyone for some reason [ you know, because there are no phones, no Internet, no mail, hell, not even a fire to send smoke signals. ]. I'd like to ask you a few questions, if you don't mind:
a) Why wouldn't the targets simply run away?
b) Holding a hostage is exhausting and you have to keep them alive, if you really, really want to earn your De Sade badge. How do you do this while actually performing your Warden duties?
... and finally...
c) Wardens are not immortal. They are not gods. They may be very powerful but that doesn't mean that they are unbeatable with any other means than magic. And while magic is nifty, I read somewhere, that it's very difficult to cast a spell when someone bashes you ever the head or kicks you into a garbage can. So, pray, explain to me: how precisely would said rogue warden make sure that his victims wouldn't stick together, stand up to him and either knock him out or even kill him?
I know it is bad for the wardens to abuse their power. It is bad for government and all their institutions to abuse their power, it undermines their legitimacy and it reduces the will of the population to work with the authorities even if it is to everyone's benefit. Nevertheless it happens and it happens precisely because of human nature. A lot of people are not that good in handling power. So every organisation should have mechanisms in place to prevent abuse of power and to repair its consequences. History and actuality tells us it is necessary.
The wardens do not have enough of that.
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Which communism are we talking about? Stalin was very good in enforcing his rules. He did not have those pesky checks and balances though.
Stalin was simply a tyrant who used a certain political situation to his advantage.
As for dissidents, plenty were motivated politically, plenty were motivated financially. And many were used as tools from outside and then discarded.
It is precisely because I have no illusions about human nature and because a job with the wardens will already attract violent people that I am concerned.
Justin was a warden. Harry can write in his reports whatever he likes and he does. Morgan can abuse his power and trials can be politically motivated show trials. It is simply not good enough for an organisation with that much power.
Well Justin's situation wasn't yet well explained, but I doubt that he had been a warden when he adopted Harry. It seems to me like he had retired from the job before starting to build a secret starborn army. Otherwise it's unlikely, that there would have been no visits.
If you have a military force that is tasked with fighting monsters and protecting your people, of course you need them to be somewhat violent. The funny part is that most normal people who are often in contact with violence tend to yearn for peace.
And I'm pretty sure that torturing less talented people would end up as at least being worth of some jail-time in warden prisons.
As it has been mentioned, wardens are called cops by Harry, but they most definitely aren't the equivalent of Magical Cops [ TM with a transformation sequence in each episode ]. They are soldiers. They don't police people's everyday lives. They step in only if one of the laws of magic have been broken. And occasionally wave fingers at people.
I know it is bad for the wardens to abuse their power. It is bad for government and all their institutions to abuse their power, it undermines their legitimacy and it reduces the will of the population to work with the authorities even if it is to everyone's benefit. Nevertheless it happens and it happens precisely because of human nature. A lot of people are not that good in handling power. So every organisation should have mechanisms in place to prevent abuse of power and to repair its consequences. History and actuality tells us it is necessary.
The wardens do not have enough of that.
Hmmm... I disagree. You don't need to double-check every case a warden fills his paperwork on, it's enough if you check on a random few cases of each warden. I mean, yes, we don't have many details on how wardens' work days look like but from what we could observe, Wardens mostly operate in groups, or at least in pairs. We've seen only Morgan, Harry and Carlos operate without another warden. And Morgan did this only in Storm Front iirc. Normally they always have some kind of backup. Even Harry has someone, usually, although it's usually not a warden.
With random checks or some kind of "After care", chances for foul play decrease.
And... frankly, while you need people who are violent, or at least don't mind being a little tough every now and then, you don't want insane sadistic assholes in your army. Because those assholes may decide to turn against you one day.
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We have said that wardens are similar to cops and soldiers. How about another group that closely resembles Wardens. I was thinking of U.S. Marshals.
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Hm... possible. I don't know enough about US Marshals to comment further.
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Well, cops have precincts they are stationed at and tend to be localized power. Soldiers tend to function in units. But, marshals, specifically Wild West marshals, seem to have broader, government-based authority. Just a thought.
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Well... the Wild West wasn't really the _Wild_ west we see in movies and read about in books.
But I guess I can see your point.
Also: "When you have 1 wizard, you have a wizard. With any higher number of wizards, you'll get an argument."
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And that leads to bureaucracy where nothing gets done.
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Oh, I don't know... when writing software you also write entries about logging. I don't see clerks working faster than computers :D it's all about the design and efficiency. And that can be calculated before implementing anything.
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I would say that I have reluctant acceptance of most organizational authority. Don't like it but understand its necessity.
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Checks and balances do work actually. If you imagine a police corpse that can execute people on the spot without a seperate juridical system, much oversight, courts of appeal etc. you can imagine the difference. It might be more effective in fighting crime until it gets corrupted beyond repair. All those safeguards have a reason.
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The corruption that we have seen within the wardens and WC has been isolated and individualistic and not systemic.
We have DuMorne, status unknown-posssibly retired warden, trying to create thug squad and doing black magic.
We have Morgan, hardcore and jaded but still toeing the line.
We have Peabody, a mind-corrupting mole.
We have Luccio, loyal but vulnerable in new body.
Finally, there is Cristos, suspect but proven.
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The corruption that we have seen within the wardens and WC has been isolated and individualistic and not systemic.
We have DuMorne, status unknown-posssibly retired warden, trying to create thug squad and doing black magic.
We have Morgan, hardcore and jaded but still toeing the line.
We have Peabody, a mind-corrupting mole.
We have Luccio, loyal but vulnerable in new body.
Finally, there is Cristos, suspect but proven.
But the reason Cristos 'had to be' chosen was because of systemic decay in the WC involving power blocks colliding between West and the rest.
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Within any large group, sub-groups will develop. These sub-groups will try to exercise power and influence over other sub-groups or the group entire. Does not mean that one or all sub-groups are corrupt. Corruption comes from the misuse of power not from its uneven flow or distribution.
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The corruption that we have seen within the wardens and WC has been isolated and individualistic and not systemic.
We have DuMorne, status unknown-posssibly retired warden, trying to create thug squad and doing black magic.
We have Morgan, hardcore and jaded but still toeing the line.
We have Peabody, a mind-corrupting mole.
We have Luccio, loyal but vulnerable in new body.
Finally, there is Cristos, suspect but proven.
But Harry distanced himself from council politics so there is a lot we do not know.
But Jim created a lot of room for himself to make parts of the wardens, say their regional in some far away country, as corrupt as he needs for story purposes.
Silent regional deviations from normal warden practices are also quite possible.
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While much is possible and detailed understanding of warden activity is lacking; what has been showed, generally, paints the wardens as a dedicated and principle group tasked with difficult actions and hard choices.
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The corruption that we have seen within the wardens and WC has been isolated and individualistic and not systemic.
We haven't seen a lot of it over time, though. At the start of the story, the Wardens appear to be more or less on the square, but we don't know much of their overall history.
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As Billy Joel sang "It's a matter of trust." Who do you trust, the experienced and reliable warden/cop or the teenaged warlock/punk that says the warden was mean to me? One has done his duty for awhile and the other ignorantly thinks they know everything.
If I'm an uninformed, or semi-informed, minor magical talent? Probably neither, or I might trust the warlock if I didn't know the true score. How do I know that Warden has been doing his duty for years? How do I know what his actual duty even is? How do I know that Council isn't full of it and handing out lies to preserve their own power?
People who've been around the block a few times might begin to notice that the Wardens do more good than harm, but that would take some experience, and even then the Wardens are scary.
If I was mostly uninformed about How It Works, and faced with a choice of believing the Molly of Proven Guilty or a Warden who had come to kill her, I might well think that it's a choice between a scared kid who tried to do something good (and in fact did do something good in the course of screwing up), and a psychopathic murderer with a sword.
If I sided with Molly and saved her from the 'psychopathic murderer', after a bit I might begin to realize I had made the wrong choice...but that would take some time and seeing the effects in action.
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Warlocks are not human? That is exactly why being branded a warlock is something to be feared by minor talents more so because some wardens can be very creative in explaining the laws when it suits them, see Morgan.
Who did not trust his own system, and he should know.
Who also showed that the white councils attitude to fair trials is not restricted to warlocks. Nobody accused Morgan of being a warlock but he was hooded anyway and had no defense exept for what nepotism brought him.
We know the warden counted members like Justin so expecting exemplary behaviour from all of them is not realistic. And more important thee is no appeal possible and the whole affair can be finished on site with whoever available.
So much power with so little oversight and no appeal or second opinion is scary. It is not good for people even the best of them.
And what Bob said was not a lie, with that cloack he can.
I suspect that there is at least some oversight. We don't know any details about how the Wardens are organized, but I doubt they really have completely free hands. But they can get pretty close, as Bob noted, and a clever one who goes bad can hide it for a long time, as we see with Justin.
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Let me suggest an alternative to there being no Wardens. Instead of trying to track, determine guilt either by their actions and/or a soulgaze, and executing them; you let warlocks do whatever they want. Wouldn't that be a nice world to live in; but, only if you are a warlock.
That's really the only excuse for the Council's policies, that the alternative appears to be vastly worse.
The question is whether the Council and the Wardens could do a better job than they do, or organizes things to produce better outcomes. At the very least, they need to do a better job of PR in the magical world.
A person born with magical aptitude is given both a gift and a burden. A gift to use power that few have. A burden to use that gift properly. Would it be it better if novice magic users knew that the WC existed and that there are consequences and punishments for misuse of power? Maybe. But ignorance of the WC does free the novice from the responsibility that hurting others for selfish cause is wrong.That queasy feeling you get before you do bad is not indigestion it is the rumblings of guilt.
Yeah, but it's not that simple. Yeah, killing with magic might produce that queasy feeling...unless you're defending yourself against attempted rape or murder. Then it might seem appropriate. (In fact, is has to seem appropriate in the moment to use magic to do it.)
Transforming another? Yeah, we know why the Council sees it as murder, but why would a new talent? Esp. since people can self-transform safely.
Reading minds? Meddling with them? Even here, it's possible for a wrong thing to seem very right under some conditions, see Molly Carpenter. And note, too, that Molly really did almost surely save Rosie's baby from being born addicted, so there's an additional complication. Molly didn't just think she was doing good, she really did do something good in the process of doing something bad. The Jedi mind trick? You're saying Ben Kenobi was a monster just for distracting an enemy?
Messing with the dead? OK, a lot of people would recoil from that out of native revulsion...but there are people would think they could do good that way, too. Esp. since there are gray areas even here.
Messing with time? Well, anyone familiar with much science fiction would know how many ways time travel might cause problems, but if you'd never thought about it, or assumed that the past was fixed...
And the Seventh Law doesn't even require magic to break. In theory, a total mundane could fall foul of the Seventh Law simply by reading the wrong book in innocence. Think about that.. You find an old book in your great-grandmother's attic, read it, and someone decides you have to die for it. For reading a book.
It is by no means obvious to an uninformed person that this stuff is bad, or why, or why the response has to be so harsh.
The Council does try to remove the stuff that's forbidden so people can't accidentally read it...but even that looks bad to the naïve. 'You're saying you have the right to dictate what I can do with my powers, how I can use them, heck, what I'm allowed to even read?' 'Yes. And I'll kill you if you don't comply.'
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Well... the Wild West wasn't really the _Wild_ west we see in movies and read about in books.
But I guess I can see your point.
Also: "When you have 1 wizard, you have a wizard. With any higher number of wizards, you'll get an argument."
I like that. A scourge of black vampires, an argument of Wizards.
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I hadn't thought what you call a group of wizards; but, an argument seems appropriate, don't it? Most of your responses I have no problem with. The only one that got me was the Ben Kenobi comment. At most, I would chalk it up to grey magic. Harry did something similar in PG to a stressed cop after the con attack.
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Better than on the Discworld, where the plural of wizards is "War".
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I agree that the White Council needs much better PR.
The problem with the Wardens as an organization, I think, is that there aren't enough of them. The White Council is a global organization, and a few hundred Wardens to police things. You're talking one Warden per, what, fifteen, twenty million people? Considering that they like to work in teams when handling true threats, it's no wonder that they have such a terrifying reputation. They only show up when things are bad, and when they do show up, people die. They're like plague doctors, except, you know, plague doctors actually carried the disease from house to house on their clothes.
I think that the real issue is pretty much a matter of scale. They have such a limited number of assets that there is no prevention; they're not an acceptable deterrent, and the sheer size of humanity over the past century is making their job that much harder (it's quintupled). If they had enough Wardens to have two or three in each major city, even that might not be enough, but it'd be a start. They don't have a presence like cops do—the "cop on every street corner" proposal helped (though how much of an impact it had is debatable, considering it went into effect during an economic boom and at the tail end of a pretty dramatic demographic shift) on crime reduction. Police trust is higher where people know their local beat cops. It is my belief that people don't trust institutions by reflex; they trust people, and that trust may extend to their organization over time.
Their lack of notable presence directly led to the minor talents' willingness to believe that Wardens were murdering them in White Night, in my opinion; Wardens were faceless enforcers to them, not, you know, people.
As for Arjan's thoughts on the topic, I believe that any (and every) organization is susceptible to corruption and abuse, the Wardens included. Considering the numbers involved—again, numbering in the hundreds—it is perfectly possible to introduce additional oversight without hindering their ability to respond to threats.
I do think it's notable, however, that the only confirmed outlier that we've seen on page is Peabody, the one person who seemed least likely to be a backstabbing murderer.
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Okay, so the Wardens are the White Council's cops... They arrest and enforce the Laws of Magic... However they are not supposed to sit in judgement of would be law breakers, that is the Senior Council's job. With the wars and modern times both are spread pretty thin... Also there are good and bad Wardens, if they are took quick on the draw and a young would be warlock loses his or her head before trial, most in the Council look the other way, makes their job easier because they feel they don't have the time to waste on a kid that no one will put his or her own head on the line for and who is a lost cause anyway.. So from her perspective, Asher was telling the truth, if she has surrendered the odds of her keeping her head were not in her favor... The chances were also good that she would have lost her head before a trial was arranged in the first place with no questions asked..
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I agree that the White Council needs much better PR.
The problem with the Wardens as an organization, I think, is that there aren't enough of them. The White Council is a global organization, and a few hundred Wardens to police things. You're talking one Warden per, what, fifteen, twenty million people? Considering that they like to work in teams when handling true threats, it's no wonder that they have such a terrifying reputation. They only show up when things are bad, and when they do show up, people die. They're like plague doctors, except, you know, plague doctors actually carried the disease from house to house on their clothes.
I think that the real issue is pretty much a matter of scale. They have such a limited number of assets that there is no prevention; they're not an acceptable deterrent, and the sheer size of humanity over the past century is making their job that much harder (it's quintupled). If they had enough Wardens to have two or three in each major city, even that might not be enough, but it'd be a start. They don't have a presence like cops do—the "cop on every street corner" proposal helped (though how much of an impact it had is debatable, considering it went into effect during an economic boom and at the tail end of a pretty dramatic demographic shift) on crime reduction. Police trust is higher where people know their local beat cops. It is my belief that people don't trust institutions by reflex; they trust people, and that trust may extend to their organization over time.
Their lack of notable presence directly led to the minor talents' willingness to believe that Wardens were murdering them in White Night, in my opinion; Wardens were faceless enforcers to them, not, you know, people.
As for Arjan's thoughts on the topic, I believe that any (and every) organization is susceptible to corruption and abuse, the Wardens included. Considering the numbers involved—again, numbering in the hundreds—it is perfectly possible to introduce additional oversight without hindering their ability to respond to threats.
I do think it's notable, however, that the only confirmed outlier that we've seen on page is Peabody, the one person who seemed least likely to be a backstabbing murderer.
And Peabody was not a warden; he was admin.
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Okay, so the Wardens are the White Council's cops... They arrest and enforce the Laws of Magic... However they are not supposed to sit in judgement of would be law breakers, that is the Senior Council's job. With the wars and modern times both are spread pretty thin... Also there are good and bad Wardens, if they are took quick on the draw and a young would be warlock loses his or her head before trial, most in the Council look the other way, makes their job easier because they feel they don't have the time to waste on a kid that no one will put his or her own head on the line for and who is a lost cause anyway.. So from her perspective, Asher was telling the truth, if she has surrendered the odds of her keeping her head were not in her favor... The chances were also good that she would have lost her head before a trial was arranged in the first place with no questions asked..
Their responsibilities include protecting both the Senior Council and other White Council members from attacks, dealing with the Vampire Courts, the Faerie, and warlocks and serving as judge, jury and executioner when in the field against violators of the Seven Laws of magic. Many warlocks are killed resisting arrest, or apprehended after their crimes have earned them a death sentences. Hearings before the Senior Council are rare. Dresden Wiki
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Their responsibilities include protecting both the Senior Council and other White Council members from attacks, dealing with the Vampire Courts, the Faerie, and warlocks and serving as judge, jury and executioner when in the field against violators of the Seven Laws of magic. Many warlocks are killed resisting arrest, or apprehended after their crimes have earned them a death sentences. Hearings before the Senior Council are rare. Dresden Wiki
No, they are not judge and jury! The accused are entitled to a trial, even if it has evolved to almost a kangaroo type event where the outcome is predestined because of 1] practicality, not enough wizards willing to risk to the Doom to rehab a young would be warlock, 2] because the Merlin in particular believes the results are mixed at best to disastrous if the rehab fails... So it may have evolved to a point where young offenders are simply killed for a variety of reasons by the Wardens, but that isn't how it is supposed to be.. So these days the Council does a lot of looking the other way unless someone like Harry insists that a trial is held.. The whole point of the trial for the Korean kid in my opinion was an object lesson for Harry by the Merlin that trials are mostly a waste of time..
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They're not "entitled" to a trial -- the vast majority of Warlocks are executed in the field by Wardens.
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They're not "entitled" to a trial -- the vast majority of Warlocks are executed in the field by Wardens.
That doesn't mean they weren't entitled to on, just that for the most part, they don't do them anymore for lack of the manpower... The response when Harry asked for one for Molly was, " I thought we didn't do that anymore..." If what you say was true, Morgan would have given Harry the chop long ago because until the end he never stopped believing he was a warlock...
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That doesn't mean they weren't entitled to on, just that for the most part, they don't do them anymore for lack of the manpower... The response when Harry asked for one for Molly was, " I thought we didn't do that anymore..." If what you say was true, Morgan would have given Harry the chop long ago because until the end he never stopped believing he was a warlock...
Or because, as Harry said, the white council has a lot of traditions but not many rules. There is no right of trial and the word trial is a mockery anyway.
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Well, not quite a mockery, since they do require a fair bit of evidence to convict, but yes.
The real problem is not the trials but the rest of the process- The Doom is far to harshly restricted and far too rarely leveled.
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That doesn't mean they weren't entitled to on, just that for the most part, they don't do them anymore for lack of the manpower... The response when Harry asked for one for Molly was, " I thought we didn't do that anymore..." If what you say was true, Morgan would have given Harry the chop long ago because until the end he never stopped believing he was a warlock...
Well, I think that since Harry did have a trial; that he was now part of the legal system. Prior to a trial a warden could use their own judgement. After a trial and a verdict by the Senior Council, he was on probation. Add in the fact that another wizard's life was tied to his probation.
"It is considered a form of probation and a rare occurrance because it requires a member of the White Council to speak in the defense of the accused. If a young spellcaster uses black magic or breaks the Laws of Magic, they are put on trial; the Doom of Damocles is only granted if a member of the White Council speaks on their behalf and manages to sway three-fourths of the council. The defendant is then placed under the care and responsibility of that particular member to be trained; if they fail to learn and use black magic again, they will be killed, along with the senior member that they were being trained by." Dresdenfiles wikia.
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They're not "entitled" to a trial -- the vast majority of Warlocks are executed in the field by Wardens.
I actually suspect that most such encounters probably happen after it's well past the point of no return, so it's not so much an execution as 'died in combat' or something along those lines.
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Or because, as Harry said, the white council has a lot of traditions but not many rules. There is no right of trial and the word trial is a mockery anyway.
How so? How would you do the trial differently? Other than making sure the whole Senior Council carries it out, I mean?
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Well, not quite a mockery, since they do require a fair bit of evidence to convict, but yes.
The real problem is not the trials but the rest of the process- The Doom is far to harshly restricted and far too rarely leveled.
Honestly...how do we know that?
We don't have much in the way of information on the recidivism rate of warlocks, what we do have tends toward: they usually repeat offend. Apparently, over the centuries, the Council has tried a lot of different things to try to rehabilitate them, even Harry admits this, and he also tells Karrin that pretty much none of it ever worked very well.
We know that it's possible for a warlock to turn away...at least in the early stages, sometimes, with help. We've see it with Molly and possibly with Harry. (We don't technically know if Harry ever was one, even he isn't sure exactly what happened in that fight with Justin). It looks as if it happened with Margaret, though we don't know the details and how hard it was for her or how much help she needed.
But note that even in the case of Molly, it was a major struggle, she nearly fell several times, she needed help from Harry, her parents, her siblings, Lea, and to a lesser degree others as well, to get back on track, and it took a long time. That was after one significant offense, with semi-good intentions and results that were not 100% bad.
What if she had messed up 3 or 4 times before Harry caught her? What if her initial act had been less mixed, more purely selfish? What if she hadn't had the family she has, the father she has, and a Wizard of the White Council who knew her since she was a kid?
The Doom is harsh, but I don't think we can say with confidence that the Council should allow it more often or less stringently.
(Also, I suspect the Doom is only required for convicted warlocks, I doubt a talent caught in the early stages of the grey areas necessary requires it.)
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I hadn't thought what you call a group of wizards; but, an argument seems appropriate, don't it?
That's what I'm calling a group of Wizards until JB says otherwise. :lol:
Most of your responses I have no problem with. The only one that got me was the Ben Kenobi comment. At most, I would chalk it up to grey magic. Harry did something similar in PG to a stressed cop after the con attack.
It's near the edge of the grey area, but it's very dark grey at best. It's like the First Law, you could probably make a self-defense case for what Kenobi did that the Council might buy, if they agreed that the circumstances were such that you had no other better options and what you doing in the first place didn't make the whole situation your fault in the first place.
But even that little bit of coercion is going to do some damage, to your target and you. It's how the Korean kid got started, more or less, just a little harmless manipulation...
I've commented before that in the DV, I can imagine back in 1977 a Warden sitting in the movie theatre watching the first Star Wars movie, seeing Kenobi do that mind trick, seeing it portrayed as harmless, effective, and easy, looking around him at a theatre full of kids, teens, and young adults, and imagining a whole population of kids, teens, and young adults, seeing it across the world, including untrained talents, and thinking to himself something like "Oh Bleeping Crap."
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How so? How would you do the trial differently? Other than making sure the whole Senior Council carries it out, I mean?
You could start with using a language the accused would actually understand.
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You could start with using a language the accused wold actually understand.
Fair point; they aren't given the opportunity to defend themselves. Hell, I studied Latin for five years, and that was just to read and write it; there are way too many oddities (considering "V" is almost always pronounced as a "W," for instance, or that sentence structure is weird and relies on suffixes way, way too much) to make it practical after the rise of Germanic and Germanic-influenced languages most Western hemisphere residents are familiar with. There's a reason Greek persisted as a spoken language in Rome.
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It acts like a self fulfilling prophesy. If the wardens come for you you act like a cornered animal because you are. This pushes them further over the edge.
It is even worse. The widespread believe in how the laws and warlocks work combined with how the dresdenverse works has a power of its own. Those who are out are pushed further out.
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It acts like a self fulfilling prophesy. If the wardens come for you you act like a cornered animal because you are. This pushes them further over the edge.
It is even worse. The widespread believe in how the laws and warlocks work combined with how the dresdenverse works has a power of its own. Those who are out are pushed further out.
It also deals with a problem that the Senior Council doesn't care to take the time/risk with for the disastrous results that come when they judge wrongly..
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It also deals with a problem that the Senior Council doesn't care to take the time/risk with for the disastrous results that come when they judge wrongly..
From the Council's prospective, 10 wrongly executed people is probably better than one warlock being wrongly freed.
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From the Council's prospective, 10 wrongly executed people is probably better than one warlock being wrongly freed.
Those 10 can not prove anything anymore while the one that escapes and surfaces later has to be a really dangerous one and has a huge axe to grind. So he will strengthen the councils belief and next time it will be 15 to one. And they won't soulgaze every warlock either, there is a cost involved.
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Sometimes you can only do what you can with what you got to work with. It is a big ole' world with a whole lotta people in it.
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Sometimes you can only do what you can with what you got to work with. It is a big ole' world with a whole lotta people in it.
if they cover the whole world. They pretend to but with only a few wardens in the US and probably less in Latin America there must be really big cities and big swats of territory with no warden precence at all.
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if they cover the whole world. They pretend to but with only a few wardens in the US and probably less in Latin America there must be really big cities and big swats of territory with no warden precence at all.
Before the war, IIRC there were about 200 Wardens. Obviously trying to police the whole planet with 200 people is an impractical proposition. The only thing they could do is wait for signs of trouble to show up, or try to suss out the warning signs of the worst stuff ahead of time.
For ex, Charity's group did get a Warden visitation, and a warning about the Laws of Magic, so something drew the Council's attention to Gregor.
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That said they obviously did a really shitty job with Gregor, since it was their visit that convinced him to start ritualistically sacrificing his followers for power, but... points for trying I guess?
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Sometimes pointing out that an A**hole is being an A**hole just encourages them to be a bigger A**hole. :)
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Sometimes pointing out that an A**hole is being an A**hole just encourages them to be a bigger A**hole. :)
It is actually a very efficient method. When you don't know what to do you just scare them shitless.
You either don't hear from them anymore, problem solved, or they do something obviously wrong, you can just kill them => problem solved.
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Good point.
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That said they obviously did a really shitty job with Gregor, since it was their visit that convinced him to start ritualistically sacrificing his followers for power, but... points for trying I guess?
Maybe, or maybe that was the plan all along and he moved up the time table when he realized the Council was suspicious of him. No way to know, since we don't know exactly what Gregor intended. (Though I wonder if it'll matter at some point down the road as we approach the BAT.)
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It's sort of like why they official rules for quiddich penalties are a secret.
Telling the players would just give them ideas.
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It's sort of like why they official rules for quiddich penalties are a secret.
Telling the players would just give them ideas.
LOL. Well they would find ways to technically adhere to the rules, but violate them in spirit.
/Ulfgeir
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LOL. Well they would find ways to technically adhere to the rules, but violate them in spirit.
/Ulfgeir
In all seriousness, I suspect that something like that debate goes on among the Wardens and the Senior Council over time. That is, is it better to explain to the masses what the danger of violating the Laws is, and risk giving people ideas, or to keep the possibilities quiet and only warn the people who are already in the know?
The problem is that both POVs are right. If the Council is open, a lot of people will avoid violating the Laws and keep their heads who otherwise would not, but other people who never suspected you even could mess around with Time or that the Outer Gates even existed will now know it and start looking for ways to use it.
OTOH, keep it too quiet and people who would avoid trouble if they knew the danger will fall into the trap of breaking the Laws in innocence, or even with good intentions, and end up causing a lot of pain and suffering and damage before they lose their heads.
I wouldn't be a bit surprised if there are ongoing arguments, year after year, on that subject within the Council.
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I guess not telling weeds out some potential problems but it also, sometimes, snares people like Molly.
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I guess not telling weeds out some potential problems but it also, sometimes, snares people like Molly.
Not telling them also means you can interpret them creatively to suit the situation.
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Not telling them also means you can interpret them creatively to suit the situation.
Yes. Along with the sincere POVs on both sides, there'd be some who wanted it kept quiet to make their own lives easier.