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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: raidem on September 24, 2017, 01:08:36 PM

Title: Harry/Marcone Relationship
Post by: raidem on September 24, 2017, 01:08:36 PM
I've in the past speculated that there is some father son relationship, or paternal lineage, going on, with a temporal spin on things in the mix between Harry and Marcone.  I've further speculated that TT_Harry and/or TT_Murphy are Marcone's parents.  The following is the first interaction in the series between Harry and Marcone and the dialogue drips with fatherly references of some type.  So I've wondered if perhaps Jim has set the stage for a complex time plot whereby someones (Marcone's) origin lies within time travel; someone needs to time travel for him to be born. 

The simplest explanation is that Marcone enjoys using the father persona in dealing with Harry.  And Jim likes describing it that way.
The simple reason without time travel with it being significant is that there is some paternal familial relationship that connects Harry and Marcone.

Stormfront and Dresden Files series begins with Son paying tribute to father.
Quote
For Debbie Chester, who taught me everything I really needed to know about writing. And for my father, who taught me everything I really needed to know about living.
I miss you dad.

This is then followed closely by multiple 'father' references during the Harry/Marcone encounter.
SF:
Quote
Marcone seemed somewhat put off by my attitude. Maybe I was supposed to be holding my hat in my hand, but I had never really liked Francis Ford Coppola, and I didn't have a Godfather. (I do have a Godmother, and she is, inevitably perhaps, a faery. But that's another story.)
Quote
He wrinkled up his face as if carefully considering what he would say, and taking my well-being into account with grandfatherly concern. "How much would it set me back to have you not investigate something?"
Quote
"All right, then," he said, smoothly, and as though nothing had happened. "I won't try to force my offer on you, Mister Dresden." The car was slowing down as it approached my building, and Hendricks pulled over in front of it. "But let me offer you some advice?"
He had dropped the father-talking-to-son act, and spoke in a calm and patient voice.
FM:
Quote
"Get out of my office," I said. I stepped inside and closed the door.
"Now, now, Mr. Dresden," Marcone said, a father's reproof in his tone. "Is that any way to talk to a business partner?"
Quote
...Marcone chuckled. "I think you should hear me out." I looked him in the eyes and smiled faintly. "No. Get out."
His fatherly manner vanished, and his eyes became cold. "I have neither the time nor the tolerance for your childishness, Mr. Dresden.
By now, in just a cursory review of just the first few books, Jim has deliberately depicted Marcone employing a fatherly approach when attempting to persuade Harry to do what he wants. What that exactly means, I'm not sure but it can be the basis of potential foreshadowing and irony depending on how things turn out.

TIDBITS THAT AREN'T NECESSARILY GERMANE.

(click to show/hide)

I'll add to this as I come across additional pertinent information.
Title: Re: Harry/Marcone Relationship
Post by: Con on September 24, 2017, 01:26:31 PM
-_- Harry is clearly the scion of Odin
Title: Re: Harry/Marcone Relationship
Post by: Thatguywhocomesaround on September 24, 2017, 03:45:23 PM
Marcone was a solider in Vietnam? That doesn't sound right. I think WOJ was a Marine, but was it specified it was Vietnam?
Title: Re: Harry/Marcone Relationship
Post by: raidem on September 24, 2017, 06:41:48 PM
From what I recall he was a marine in Vietnam.  Though I might be getting Michael carpenter confused in with the woj.  You definitely remembered correctly that he was a marine.
Title: Re: Harry/Marcone Relationship
Post by: Mira on September 25, 2017, 11:20:16 AM
From what I recall he was a marine in Vietnam.  Though I might be getting Michael carpenter confused in with the woj.  You definitely remembered correctly that he was a marine.

Yeah, it doesn't sound right that Marcone was a marine in Viet Nam...   Does anyone know what his age is?  That would tell us a lot about whether he was or not.. 
Title: Re: Harry/Marcone Relationship
Post by: raidem on September 25, 2017, 12:45:25 PM
Quote
@BillyYank Marcone was a Marine.
So that settles it, there isn't an allusion at least in that quote to Vietnam.

This was the last reference to Marcone I could find in WOJ section via search for his name. 
Quote
2011 Naperville Signing
You have a big supporting cast of antagonists in the Dresden Files, are there any you prefer writing over others?
...And Marcone is also a favorite.  Being able to write the short story Even Hand from his viewpoint was very enlightening for me.  Because I had never really been entirely certain what his take on Dresden was until I actually got inside his head and started writing him for a while.  He’s the guy that looks at Dresden like, you know, the guy that looks at the drunken Sheriff in town who’s just like “I just want the shootouts to stop.”  It’s like, Come on, yes you keep wining them but COME ON, there’s gotta be a better way that brakes fewer windows.  But at the same time he owns the undertaker shop so… [shrugs and waves his hand in front of them like they are balancing scales].

Now back to establishing lower limit on Marcone's age via Amanda's age.
Quote
Amanda's birth via Priscilla's timeline prior to Storm Front
~13-17 BSF: Amanda Beckitt born.  [Age:0] {This needs to be analyzed further it is based largely on description of Amanda as in late teens, early twenties in DM which according to timeline takes place 3 years after Storm Front)
Quote
[2-7 years BSF] What I could see was the Beckitt family. Husband, wife, daughter, a little girl maybe ten or eleven years old. [Age: 10-11]
She is "in her late teens or early twenties" in DM which takes place about 3 years after SF. [Age 18-23]

Now for Marcone
Quote
@BillyYank Marcone was a Marine. [Age>17 when he entered service]
I'm having some difficulty making some of the facts we know about Marcone mesh particulary regarding his apparent age at time of shootout, service as a marine, temporal proximity to Storm Front, his takeover of Chicago's criminal underworld.
Quote
I looked over my shoulder to see a very, very young-looking Marcone.
He wasn't wearing a business suit. He had on jeans and a black leather jacket. His hair was longish, a little mussed, and he also sported a stubble of beard that gave him the kind of rakish look that would attract attention from the girls who fantasized about indulging with a bad boy. [Age:?]
How long was Marcone involved in the years of internal struggle after the Vargassi family dissolved into internal strife?
Quote
"Gentleman" Johnny Marcone had been the thug to emerge on top of the pile after the Vargassi family had dissolved into internal strife. The police department saw Marcone as a mixed blessing, after years of merciless struggle and bloody exchanges with the Vargassis.
SF: Marcone's appearance during first Harry/Marcone encounter
Quote
Gentleman Johnny Marcone didn't look like the sort of man who would have my legs broken or my jaw wired shut. His salt-and-pepper hair was cut short, and there were lines from sun and smiling etched into the corners of his eyes. His eyes were the green of well-worn dollar bills. He seemed more like a college football coach: good-looking, tanned, athletic, and enthusiastic. The impression was reinforced by the men he kept with him.

Harry's Age
Quote
25 BSF, October 31:  Harry is born.  Harry's mother, now Margaret Gwendolyn Dresden, dies in childbirth.  She is murdered by a ritual entropy curse, courtesy of Lord Raith. [Harry's Age SF=25]
Based on time of shootout, estimate of Amanda's birth, Harry's birth, and Marcone involvement in a shootout 2-7BSF at age no earlier than 18, I estimate that Marcone is at least 6-10 years older than Harry.
Title: Re: Harry/Marcone Relationship
Post by: jonas on September 25, 2017, 02:40:13 PM
Merlin to Uther or Arthur, He helped him cement his kingdom, is known/rumored to be in 'cahoots' with him, Marcone literally tried to get him in the advisor role for magics even, both caught up in the Grail quest in ways, ect.
Title: Re: Harry/Marcone Relationship
Post by: Mira on September 25, 2017, 03:25:11 PM
Quote
Now for Marcone
Quote

    @BillyYank Marcone was a Marine. [Age>17 when he entered service]

I'm having some difficulty making some of the facts we know about Marcone mesh.
Quote

    I looked over my shoulder to see a very, very young-looking Marcone.
    He wasn't wearing a business suit. He had on jeans and a black leather jacket. His hair was longish, a little mussed, and he also sported a stubble of beard that gave him the kind of rakish look that would attract attention from the girls who fantasized about indulging with a bad boy.

Why? Because he was busy taking over the criminal enterprise in Chicago after that shootout or so I suppose and the shootout wasn't that much earlier than Storm Front.

Age is important to determine whether or not he served in Viet Nam...    The fall of Saigon happened in 1975..  That was forty-two years ago, if Marcone entered the service at 18 and served in Viet Nam, the youngest he could be is 60, most likely he is older if the claim is he saw combat..  I didn't get the impression that Marcone was that much older than Harry, but that is merely an impression,  is there better information out there?   As to entering at age 17, I believe he'd need parental consent to do so, I cannot imagine his crime family parents giving that.. But I could be wrong about that as well.
Title: Re: Harry/Marcone Relationship
Post by: raidem on September 25, 2017, 03:27:39 PM
Oh, sorry.  I already dismissed the Vietnam bit in my post of the WOJ I partly incorrectly recalled.
Quote
@BillyYank Marcone was a Marine.
So that settles it, there isn't an allusion at least in that quote to Vietnam.

So, I'm not concerned about the Vietnam piece anymore. I was moving on to establish an age for him. The thing is though if you view/read the comics, the Marcone portrayed there is much older than Harry.
Quote
As to entering at age 17, I believe he'd need parental consent to do so, I cannot imagine his crime family parents giving that..
I don't think it's established that he has crime family parents.  We are in the dark as to his parents otherwise I wouldn't even be entertaining this WAG.
Title: Re: Harry/Marcone Relationship
Post by: Rasins on September 25, 2017, 06:19:40 PM
We know MacFinn was in Vietnam.  Don't know about Marcone though.
Title: Re: Harry/Marcone Relationship
Post by: Mira on September 25, 2017, 11:07:02 PM
We know MacFinn was in Vietnam.  Don't know about Marcone though.

Yes, and he was an older guy,  being a Loop may have allowed him to age more slowly like wizards.. Marcone however is a vanilla mortal as far as we know.
Title: Re: Harry/Marcone Relationship
Post by: Thatguywhocomesaround on September 26, 2017, 01:02:55 AM
Well, in regards to Marcone's age - I always liked to think of him at thirty or very early thirties at the start of the series. At least five years or so on Harry.
Title: Re: Harry/Marcone Relationship
Post by: Thatguywhocomesaround on September 26, 2017, 01:08:15 AM
So, it can be pretty easy to figure out.

He could have started his criminal career early, joined the Marines -served his time for the minimum, and Vargrassi war kicked off when he returned or not soon after.
Title: Re: Harry/Marcone Relationship
Post by: jonas on September 26, 2017, 01:34:10 AM
So, it can be pretty easy to figure out.

He could have started his criminal career early, joined the Marines -served his time for the minimum, and Vargrassi war kicked off when he returned or not soon after.
Which it's a stupid way to make a time table but GTA vice city and Marcones 80's Hair support that timeline lol.
Title: Re: Harry/Marcone Relationship
Post by: wardenferry419 on September 26, 2017, 09:40:00 AM
In Storm Front, circa 2000, I would put Marcone in his early 40s, That would mean he was born between 1955 and 1960.  Old enough to have served in Vietnam,  barely. Presently, 15+years later, Marcone is around 60, give or take a few years. That is my estimate.
Title: Re: Harry/Marcone Relationship
Post by: Rasins on September 26, 2017, 03:52:40 PM
I didn't get the impression that Marcone was old enough to have served in Viet Nam.
Title: Re: Harry/Marcone Relationship
Post by: raidem on September 26, 2017, 04:04:46 PM
Should I make a Marcone's Age thread?

Oh, and I linked the WOJ about Marcone being a Marine.  There wasn't a reference to Vietnam that I thought there was.  So, I'm not sure why Vietnam is still being discussed though whatever, perhaps there is another hint, or suggestion outside of the WOJ delivered via twitter.

Title: Re: Harry/Marcone Relationship
Post by: jonas on September 26, 2017, 08:29:05 PM
Guess you don't see any Arthur, Merlin comparisons?
Title: Re: Harry/Marcone Relationship
Post by: raidem on September 26, 2017, 09:23:20 PM
 I see that he wanted very much to employ Harry early on, to get him to sign a contract.
 I see Jim deliberately writing Harry/Marcone interactions with  fatherly undertones.  Marcone seems to employ father talking to son act with Harry when he is trying to get Harry to do something.  Harry perceiving Marcone's actions as someone employing father talking to son act.
Title: Re: Harry/Marcone Relationship
Post by: jonas on September 26, 2017, 09:58:12 PM
Merlin is younger than Uther btw. I accredited it to identifying Marcone as fatherly, as he only actually tries that the first time, but Marcone is identified with similar words even when not trying to be. Ultimate test? Check Even Hand for the same key word descriptions, a technique we know Jim uses for identifications and drawing similarity.
See if he's still 'fatherly' without Dresden in the scene?
*have to wait on brief cases for my own copy ;/
Title: Re: Harry/Marcone Relationship
Post by: wardenferry419 on September 26, 2017, 09:58:23 PM
Good ole' Uncle Johnny Marcone is always looking out for his little nephew Harry.
Title: Re: Harry/Marcone Relationship
Post by: raidem on September 26, 2017, 10:45:19 PM
There is only one reference to father in Even Hand but it is a Reference to Father Forthill. Even Hand does have him acting fatherly though:).
(click to show/hide)

Yeah, that has crossed my mind too, at least the uncle bit.  But just keep in mind, Marcone plans to test himself against Harry, aka kill him, should the need arise.
(click to show/hide)
In my far out WAG with Marcone's origin lying in time travel with Harry and Murphy as parents.  I see Marcone set against a dangerous father, with Marcone taking out the Evil Harry.
Title: Re: Harry/Marcone Relationship
Post by: wardenferry419 on September 26, 2017, 11:12:03 PM
So, Marcone is the Dresdenverse Cable.
Title: Re: Harry/Marcone Relationship
Post by: raidem on September 27, 2017, 12:55:13 AM
Oh, Cain and Able?
Some in the past have wondered if marcone is another brother of Harry. Maybe cousin... who knows.
Title: Re: Harry/Marcone Relationship
Post by: wardenferry419 on September 27, 2017, 09:17:46 AM
Cable as in Cyclops son sent to the future then returns to the present as an old man with the goal of defeating Apocalypse.  It is an X-Men thing.
Title: Re: Harry/Marcone Relationship
Post by: raidem on September 27, 2017, 12:31:54 PM
Gotya.  Ooh, that can be used as great circumstantial evidence supporting a John Marcone connected with time travel and perhaps having surprising identities for his parents due to TT.  Nice find and addition.  His name begins with Nathan similar to marcone, according to woj.  It should be noted however that there are references on internet of Hendricks first name being Nathan.
Title: Re: Harry/Marcone Relationship
Post by: Kindler on September 27, 2017, 01:01:44 PM
I think, if there's going to be Time Travel, it's going to involve Harry heading back to meet Papa Murphy and help him with a Black Cat case. There's a Word of Jim that basically confirms it wasn't a suicide; to me, that's an indication that we'll find out what really happened to him.

I could see a chain of events taking shape, with Murphy and Harry getting thrown back there by Uriel (or Mab, or whatever) because someone else was messing with time, like Nicodemus in a last-ditch attempt to pull off a win. They get stuck there for a while, baby happens, then get snapped back to the present, being forced to abandon their baby, who they find out is John Marcone. Because he's such an important figure, they can't go back and rescue him, or risk violating Time Laws by ending the loop (or I guess, in this case, opening a closed loop).

Super implausible, sure, but why not? If nothing else, there's a pretty good reason to end their relationship if Jim intends to do that.
Title: Re: Harry/Marcone Relationship
Post by: Rasins on September 27, 2017, 03:45:41 PM
I have a hard time believing there is any blood relationship between Harry and Marcone.

I'd sooner believe he's the time-traveled son of Faith Astor.
Title: Re: Harry/Marcone Relationship
Post by: raidem on September 27, 2017, 03:54:42 PM
I think what got me headed the way of Harry and Marcone being related and with some father/son dynamic going on was many of the early father, grandfather, father talking to son, fatherly references between Harry and Marcone.

Besides that, I probably would never have gone down this route.
Title: Re: Harry/Marcone Relationship
Post by: Rasins on September 27, 2017, 04:03:41 PM
I think what got me headed the way of Harry and Marcone being related and with some father/son dynamic going on was many of the early father, grandfather, father talking to son, fatherly references between Harry and Marcone.

Besides that, I probably would never have gone down this route.

Oh, I get it.  I just think having everyone related (okay not EVERYONE, but ...) would detract from the world-wide threat and drama of the series.  At least for me.
Title: Re: Harry/Marcone Relationship
Post by: raidem on September 27, 2017, 04:06:58 PM
Has Mouse ever met Marcone?
Title: Re: Harry/Marcone Relationship
Post by: Rasins on September 27, 2017, 04:08:00 PM
Has Mouse ever met Marcone?

Now you aren't going to try to suggest that Marcone is a shape-shifted Mouse, are you?

LOL
Title: Re: Harry/Marcone Relationship
Post by: Kindler on September 27, 2017, 04:57:21 PM
Now you aren't going to try to suggest that Marcone is a shape-shifted Mouse, are you?

LOL

It's the other way around; Mouse is a shape-shifted Marcone, who was taught how to become a Foo Dog by Tera West. Obvs.  ;D
Title: Re: Harry/Marcone Relationship
Post by: raidem on September 27, 2017, 05:37:32 PM
No.  Mouse is in the know of quite a few things.  If there is say a TT father/son relationship between Harry and Marcone, then I'd suspect that Mouse might be clued in on it. Maybe, Maybe not.  But it would be interested to get Mouse's take on Marcone.

There is a WOJ about Mouse being in the know.
Quote
2011 Atlanta Signing
How about a short story from the perspective of Mouse or Mister? A day in the life?
I suppose it could be done.  Mister’s would be really freaky, because he’s a cat. [unintelligible]….he’s a cat.   I guess it could be fun writing that.  From Mouse’s perspective?  I don’t know, Mouse knows too much about what’s going on, he’d give it away. Mouse is actually far more clued in than Dresden
Title: Re: Harry/Marcone Relationship
Post by: Rhetoric on September 27, 2017, 05:39:21 PM
Has Mouse ever met Marcone?

Do the comics count? (https://i.imgur.com/l6VliU7.png)
Title: Re: Harry/Marcone Relationship
Post by: raidem on September 27, 2017, 05:41:19 PM
Ah, very nice. It counts somewhat.
Title: Re: Harry/Marcone Relationship
Post by: wardenferry419 on September 27, 2017, 10:47:57 PM
I think that Marcone uses fatherly tones with Harry as an irritant due to Harry's stubborn attitude towards authority figures. Add in the facts that Harry lost his real father tragically, killed his adopted father, and recently become a father figure himself and that only increases his annoyance.
Title: Re: Harry/Marcone Relationship
Post by: raidem on September 27, 2017, 11:01:02 PM
Very sensible, though on the first meeting marcone was trying to persuade Harry, so I doubt he used a fatherly facade as an intended irritant.
Title: Re: Harry/Marcone Relationship
Post by: jonas on September 27, 2017, 11:34:40 PM
Very sensible, though on the first meeting marcone was trying to persuade Harry, so I doubt he used a fatherly facade as an intended irritant.
Considering it is largely played up by him when he does do it, one wonders where he learned it. 'Acting' a role like that take a bit of effort to develop. What's the origin of this fatherly coach personae I wonder?
Title: Re: Harry/Marcone Relationship
Post by: wardenferry419 on September 27, 2017, 11:47:31 PM
A fatherly coach is one way to describe a military platoon sargeant. Other descriptions, from my experience, are less nice.
Title: Re: Harry/Marcone Relationship
Post by: Rhetoric on September 27, 2017, 11:59:18 PM
Jim Butcher referring to Marcone as a "paternalistic authority figure (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDJDn-ggqOo&feature=youtu.be&t=1h2m39s)." (1h 2m 39s)
Title: Re: Harry/Marcone Relationship
Post by: wardenferry419 on September 28, 2017, 12:03:07 AM
Thank you, I don't think I have seen this one before.
Title: Re: Harry/Marcone Relationship
Post by: Rasins on September 28, 2017, 06:48:21 PM
Considering it is largely played up by him when he does do it, one wonders where he learned it. 'Acting' a role like that take a bit of effort to develop. What's the origin of this fatherly coach personae I wonder?

And here I thought he was emulating Bill Cosby.
Title: Re: Harry/Marcone Relationship
Post by: jonas on September 28, 2017, 07:14:37 PM
And here I thought he was emulating Bill Cosby.
roflmao
Title: Re: Harry/Marcone Relationship
Post by: wardenferry419 on September 28, 2017, 10:30:23 PM
Only if Marcone offers Harry a "special" pudding pop for his headache.
Title: Re: Harry/Marcone Relationship
Post by: raidem on October 02, 2017, 01:46:24 PM
Quote
"Lawrence. Show me your wrist."
"He's lying, boss," Gimpy Lawrence said again, but his voice was shaking. "He's just trying to mess with your head."
"Lawrence," Marcone said, his tone the gentle reproof of parent to child.

I found one reference where Marcone uses parental tone, or at least Harry/Jim describes it as such, to someone other than Harry.  This is consistent with Jim's WOJ that Marcone is a paternalistic authority figure.