So we know the White Court are the primary caretakers of the Venatores ...
We know Lara organised the publishing of Bram Stoker's book a manual on killing Black Court. Which if you think about it was inspired by the reverse status quo of the Ventori which was destroy all books with knowledge of a creature.Not sure where you got WCV are caretakers of venatori, we only know Laura and Thomas are involved? But... My personal theory, and since Laura as the Venator cut out would know/understand better how it all works and was directly involved with stoker, two points that back up my idea,
Stoker changed that not by publicizing their secret weakness's, but by causing belief about them to create said weakness's.Sorry to be so blunt about it, but it seems to me that's a bit too simple. Belief is more than wishful thinking. Something in the universe has to back it up. Otherwise all those storks with their heads in the sand wouldn't lose out on the evolutionary lottery so badly.
I just had a thought about Mavra in Dead Beat. What if she is a Venator too? The reason Lara is is that she wants to get rid of competition. Gods don't seem to have much use for Vampires ... they feed on and destroy too many sources of potential power. Reason enough that no new ones arise.Define your problem better than blunt opinion that I might smite it down with the bluntness it rode ye in on :) or do you think people just randomly day dream about taking control of their lives, about being safe from monsters in the dark or that there's a 'cure all' to anything or do they actually hope and believe them? an idea's a powerful thing, the stokerocalpse was caused by a book, and it ended by and large through the same mob methodology used in said book. why? Because after being introduced to the idea they choose to believe it was possible. By and large otherwise it coulda happened the same way waaay before any book on how to. Still had Clerics, still had fire... Nothing changed but the belief in the possibilities ;)
Sorry to be so blunt about it, but it seems to me that's a bit too simple. Belief is more than wishful thinking. Something in the universe has to back it up. Otherwise all those storks with their heads in the sand wouldn't lose out on the evolutionary lottery so badly.
Define your problem better than blunt opinion that I might smite it down with the bluntness it rode ye in on :) or do you think people just randomly day dream about taking control of their lives, about being safe from monsters in the dark or that there's a 'cure all' to anything or do they actually hope and believe them? an idea's a powerful thing, the stokerocalpse was caused by a book, and it ended by and large through the same mob methodology used in said book. why? Because after being introduced to the idea they choose to believe it was possible. By and large otherwise it coulda happened the same way waaay before any book on how to. Still had Clerics, still had fire... Nothing changed but the belief in the possibilities ;)Of course the book gave people power and hope. Knowledge is power. And of course people believed in the methods described. They worked. You were arguing that the methods only worked because people believed in them, that they became effective via blind belief. That's not very logical imho. Someone had to try them for the first time and that person can't have been too confident about their chances of survival at the time. They were facing a Black Court Vampire. The first guy to try anything from Stoker's repertoire was probably very surprised they made it.
fyi, the storks hide with fear, not with faith.
Of course the book gave people power and hope. Knowledge is power. And of course people believed in the methods described. They worked. You were arguing that the methods only worked because people believed in them, that they became effective via blind belief.And there your arguing that of course they believed in prescribed methods because they worked but we have no proof whatsoever that they went after BCV in such a way before Stoker. So your placing the chicken before the egg.
That's not very logical imho. Someone had to try them for the first time and that person can't have been too confident about their chances of survival at the time. They were facing a Black Court Vampire. The first guy to try anything from Stoker's repertoire was probably very surprised they made it.They were facing unknowable evils that hadn't yet been defined. Before Stoker mortals didn't know jack about it being BCV, hence why they got confabulated with the black death, a simple disease. Bob voices it directly and shows proof ppl just didn't 'believe' anything about them priori, They didn't even have a name for Reinfeilds. Why is that signifigant? Because not even wizards, the mostly likeliest to twig to BCV don't have any other word but that which stoker used. Stoker defined them in name just like he defined the BCV in identity.
Stoker himself or his informants had to collect the information before they put them together in a book of mass-destruction. If your reversal of cause and effect would have worked, they could have just made up the weaknesses of the Black Court. If that method worked, you could kill anything that way.Stoker had informants or he himself? proof of that? cause it seems like you just pulled that one out of the air there, he was informed by lara. Whom we know is part of the oblivion war and understands both identity and how mortal belief effects it.
I kind of got the impression that Stoker had gotten the vast majority of his information straight from the Whites. And that there were a LOT of other supernatural nations that were getting very concerned about their rise in power. So there were several efforts to take them out.That's my read as well. I havent seen any actual mention of other schemes, but he does confirm that Everyone resented the sudden power of the Blacks, and also that Lara/the WC was behind Bram (who Jim described as the Cut-Out man of the scheme).
Stoker just got the mortals involved.
See, so I was right. He didn't die of syphilis. Lara wouldn't have had it (her demon would have killed it, assuming she'd ever been exposed), and I doubt she'd have had fun times with Stoker if he already had it. So Lara ate him, and then spread the story that he died of syphilis. (OK, I admit it, my theory was that the black court killed him and spread the false story. But I still claim being right that in the DV Stoker did not die of syphilis. :D )
Die of syphilis? God, no, man. Stoker was the cutout. :)
The BC didn't /know/ about the WC's involvement until well after the fact, at which point it was entirely academic. The BC who are left survive because they are extremely pragmatic. They don't have enough trouble surviving /without/ picking a fight with the entire White Court, who will only send the peasants and pitchforks anyway? If one needs to vent one's spleen, one does it on hapless mortals, preferably those no one will miss.
The BC who wanted to get all ballsy about Just Vengeance died in the fifties and sixties, culminating in the heyday of the Hammer films. :)
I think that was all within the text. I didn't record Jim saying it, but that doesn't necessarily mean he didn't.
The text definitely says that the Wampires somehow motivated Stoker to write his books though. And Jim does sorta confirm that Stoker was killed for being spot on.
Stoker was killed for being delicious.
Lara: Bram, Bram, Bram. You've done so well. Time for your reward.
Lara (later): ...
Lara (in her journal): It's so easy to get carried away when one works with the creative talent. So much enthusiasm.
4. if the elders of the black court could have taken mab, then HOW ON EARTH did any mere force of humans manage to go up and stake them? i mean, they should've wiped out anything that was coming after them if they can take on MAB herself...just a thought
Power in the spirit world isn't the same thing as power in the material world. And a one-on-thirtyish fight (Mab vs the elders of the BC) is WAY different than a one-on-20,000 fight (a BC vampire against a modest mortal city). Especially when the 20,000 know what your weaknesses are, and how to kill you with them. Smiley And that's assuming that you don't have a saint, or an independent wizard, or a shaman, a Knight of the Cross or some other champion, or other spiritual allies on your side which was not uncommon. Hell, for that matter, you might well be aided by vampires from the other Courts. *Everyone* resented how powerful the Blacks had become.
Stoker had informants or he himself? proof of that? cause it seems like you just pulled that one out of the air there, he was informed by lara. Whom we know is part of the oblivion war and understands both identity and how mortal belief effects it.Raisins and Quantus have already provided the quotes, so yep, Stoker had informants. Lara Raith. We don't know exactly how she got the information, but it's not very hard to figure out imo. She probably collected it from various sources. And maybe Stoker himself was encouraged to figure some things out. How they put it all together isn't that important though, imo. The thing is that it was information about weaknesses of the Black Court that was already true. You were arguing that the publication of those weaknesses somehow was a catalyst for the methods to become effective because people believed in them. I only pointed out that this was an over-simplification of the way how belief works in the DV in my very humble opinion. People don't start believing in things because they read about them in a novel. Ok, some do, but that's not the normal case. I'm sure that very few readers of the Dresden Files rely on crying out "Forzare" at their opponents when they end up in a fight. ;)
Raisins and Quantus have already provided the quotes, so yep, Stoker had informants. Lara Raith. We don't know exactly how she got the information, but it's not very hard to figure out imo.I already said that in the little bit you quoted, then pointed out why that's significant and why your early assertation that Stoker had informants or researched himself was off track... you can't say it one way before and claim you meant something else now... that's not what you were referring to earlier
Stoker himself or his informants had to collect the information before they put them together in a book of mass-destruction.It's not linearly connected to the idea Stoker researched or 'had informants' vs what I already pointed out, Lara did it. Who is also a venator who knows all about how the oblivion war works. It's not a big leap when Mab had Disney make fairy land to cement the Sidhe back in that someone else can do the same. Someone else who knows the value of mortal information.
I already said that in the little bit you quoted, then pointed out why that's significant and why your early assertation that Stoker had informants or researched himself was off track... you can't say it one way before and claim you meant something else now... that's not what you were referring to earlier It's not linearly connected to the idea Stoker researched or 'had informants' vs what I already pointed out, Lara did it. Who is also a venator who knows all about how the oblivion war works. It's not a big leap when Mab had Disney make fairy land to cement the Sidhe back in that someone else can do the same. Someone else who knows the value of mortal information.Look, I don't wanna go into one of those discussions about a stupid point where people dissect each other's posts sentence per sentence for ages. They usually aren't very interesting for anybody else. I wrote informants because Stoker had been provided the information. It is commonly known that those "informants" were the WC, especially Lara. I wasn't trying to argue anything else, I just used a word that I thought would be understood in the meaning that's commonly accepted afaik. Maybe that wasn't the best choice of words, so sue me.
Gentle reminder: what happens on these forums is intended to be friendly discussion, so let's keep it that way.
Stoker changed that not by publicizing their secret weakness's, but by causing belief about them to create said weakness's.It is my opinion that for this to be true, too many factors other than belief have to be cut out of the equation. Their relevance isn't reflected in your theory. Physics, the power of the opposition, other beliefs maybe ... The most important one imo is that belief doesn't just happen, it has to have a strong basis to grow from, and it probably doesn't do diddly if it is just one guy believing something, no matter how strongly he does so. The reason I called your theory an over-simplification is this: I think it would just be way too easy to finish a strong enemy if I just made people believe they had certain weaknesses if those weaknesses were not really there. That'd be dangerous misinformation, not a weapon to be shaped. In my interpretation, the logical consequence of your proposed theory is that something very akin to wishful thinking could be effective. Imo, the power of faith is not that easy to be tapped into because true faith just isn't that easy and it might not be able to account for everything.
You're right, sorry.I would add to this that while it's been stated (by harry in Day One) that Belief can indeed create new creatures or provide exisitng creatures an identity enough to manifest, I think it would be a whole other order of magnitude to be able to /override/ an existing creature with new Powers or Rules, especially against their will. It shoud be easier to grant a willing creature a new Strength than to impose a Weakness on an enemy.
Jonas, I apologise if I've hurt your feelings. It wasn't my intention and I never intended to get sarcastic. Please let me rephrase my personal, subjective opinion on this statement of yours:It is my opinion that for this to be true, too many factors other than belief have to be cut out of the equation. Their relevance isn't reflected in your theory. Physics, the power of the opposition, other beliefs maybe ... The most important one imo is that belief doesn't just happen, it has to have a strong basis to grow from, and it probably doesn't do diddly if it is just one guy believing something, no matter how strongly he does so. The reason I called your theory an over-simplification is this: I think it would just be way too easy to finish a strong enemy if I just made people believe they had certain weaknesses if those weaknesses were not really there. That'd be dangerous misinformation, not a weapon to be shaped. In my interpretation, the logical consequence of your proposed theory is that something very akin to wishful thinking could be effective. Imo, the power of faith is not that easy to be tapped into because true faith just isn't that easy and it might not be able to account for everything.
You're right, sorry.Why thank you, and I myself apologize for any abruptness.
Jonas, I apologise if I've hurt your feelings. It wasn't my intention and I never intended to get sarcastic.[
Please let me rephrase my personal, subjective opinion on this statement of yours:It is my opinion that for this to be true, too many factors other than belief have to be cut out of the equation. Their relevance isn't reflected in your theory. Physics, the power of the opposition, other beliefs maybe ... The most important one imo is that belief doesn't just happen, it has to have a strong basis to grow from, and it probably doesn't do diddly if it is just one guy believing something, no matter how strongly he does so. The reason I called your theory an over-simplification is this: I think it would just be way too easy to finish a strong enemy if I just made people believe they had certain weaknesses if those weaknesses were not really there. That'd be dangerous misinformation, not a weapon to be shaped. In my interpretation, the logical consequence of your proposed theory is that something very akin to wishful thinking could be effective. Imo, the power of faith is not that easy to be tapped into because true faith just isn't that easy and it might not be able to account for everything.Stating your opinion is fine, but when you don't reply to my circumstantial evidence, quote someone else as pointing out something I pointed out directly. An then precede to disagree by opinion, which you've already stated, I tend to feel offended a bit... if you don't wanna dissect everything that's fine. I don't want to get into opinion versus opinion rage matches, so I try to stick with where I'm at on my hill and dissect things, not wonder if I can oust you from yours. Elvis is the only king I'll ever recognize ;)
The reason I called your theory an over-simplification is this: I think it would just be way too easy to finish a strong enemy if I just made people believe they had certain weaknesses if those weaknesses were not really there. That'd be dangerous misinformation, not a weapon to be shaped.Going back to this and the point I thought i'd made, the BC was relatively new, a mere 500 yrs or so old. and since their was no information on them it becomes impossible to disseminate disinformation. Now on the other hand if I know BVC came recently from outside, understand the consequences and nuances of the oblivion war at mortal knowledge and then proceed to cement something more so in reality by spreading a book about it then I must have a better reason then revealing weakness's to mortals. Mortals already had faith and fire and garlic, already used them for other things even as you pointed out. But somehow the scourge continued to spread.
Why is that important? Because before stoker the thing that was Drakul, that birthed the BCV's was never connected to being a vampire or producing vampire heirs. So the very belief that we were dealing with a new vampire caught hold itself in Stoker's book's. again, he defined them. With my premise being Lara did so intentionally. If you wanna discuss that or refute it, cool.This is simply incorrect in the Dresden Files. Drakul and Dracula are two completely different people. Drakul doesnt have any connection to vampires at all (that we know of), rather his son Dracula specifically and intentionally Created the Black Court in the course of vague family Drama and daddy issues. The Black Court existed prior to the publication of Bram Stoker, and said publication ididnt actually Change the Black Court, it simply advertised them. It had the side benefit of making everyone believe that Black Court where THE vampire race, so the others could point to it and say "See, I can eat garlic so Clearly Im not a Vampire." But again, this is a matter of publication of their weaknesses, not spontaneous generation of new weaknesses.
*that might help with your 'inertia' Quantus. Stoker was the originator of said momentum.
This is simply incorrect in the Dresden Files. Drakul and Dracula are two completely different people. Drakul doesnt have any connection to vampires at all (that we know of), rather his son Dracula specifically and intentionally Created the Black Court in the course of vague family Drama and daddy issues.replace drakul with Dracula then, the father son issue always confuses me, it has nothing to do with the df, just the damn thing itself always confuzzles me.
The Black Court existed prior to the publication of Bram Stoker, and said publication ididnt actually Change the Black Court, it simply advertised them.That's what's up for debate here actually, your inferring that from what you believe from your perspective but that don't mean it's true. Point of fact Ramps have all the same weaknesses as Blamps to a lesser degree(except maybe garlic, I can't confirm that offhand) and people already knew about them so advertising known vampire weaknesses doesn't help directly. Pointing out another being is a vampire could help define them as such though. since they are greater effected by faith, I tie that into being angelic in nature, the belief applied to them that they are vampires actually causes vampire weaknesses to effect them more, such as it does.
It had the side benefit of making everyone believe that Black Court where THE vampire race, so the others could point to it and say "See, I can eat garlic so Clearly Im not a Vampire." But again, this is a matter of publication of their weaknesses, not spontaneous generation of new weaknesses.Spontaneous generation of a whole new race born from angelic power is precisely what happened when Dracula did the deed. It was an entirely new creation without tags from other things connecting it to reality. A virtual unknown that stayed that way. You can't say what you think and have it automatically refute a theory... that's not how theory works. It's why they're so damnably frustrating sometime. I avoid raging against things like he-who-walks-beside though..
replace drakul with Dracula then, the father son issue always confuses me, it has nothing to do with the df, just the damn thing itself always confuzzles me.Issues keeping the two straight, or are you saying you dont understand why Dracula would have parental issues?
That's what's up for debate here actually, your inferring that from what you believe from your perspective but that don't mean it's true. Point of fact Ramps have all the same weaknesses as Blamps to a lesser degree(except maybe garlic, I can't confirm that offhand) and people already knew about them so advertising known vampire weaknesses doesn't help directly.Ramps ware weak to Sunlight and Faith. Blampires are weak to those, and also Garlic, theoretically Necromancy, and if we take the Stoker book as a valid source, running water and the mirror bit and a host of others. Which is enough differential to leverage in the 19th century. But I suspect White Court would not have minded if there was Collateral Red Court Damage, regardless.
Pointing out another being is a vampire could help define them as such though. since they are greater effected by faith, I tie that into being angelic in nature, the belief applied to them that they are vampires actually causes vampire weaknesses to effect them more, such as it does.
Spontaneous generation of a whole new race born from angelic power is precisely what happened when Dracula did the deed. It was an entirely new creation without tags from other things connecting it to reality. A virtual unknown that stayed that way.1)I really think it is a HUGE leap to say that because something has a weakness to Faith Energy it has to be rooted in Angelic Power. Angels do not have a monopoly on Faith energy. 2)What Dracula did in "creating himself as the first Black Court Vampire" is a wildly different thing than publishing a book and spontaneously creating a new monstrous Race out of pure belief, and has to be a wildly different thing than instantly (or near enough by ageless corpse standards) Imposing wholly new weakness on a pre-existing race. Otherwise, there would be Jedi running around (and Butters doesnt count) and more people falling through wardrobes.
You can't say what you think and have it automatically refute a theory... that's not how theory works. It's why they're so damnably frustrating sometime. I avoid raging against things like he-who-walks-beside though..
Again, this isn't refuting anything I've supplied through inference. Just trying to point out the difference. Probably gonna have to pull out the history books, look through Ms Ducks work and shore up my defenses... my hill shall not be allowed to easily stand ;D
This is simply incorrect in the Dresden Files. Drakul and Dracula are two completely different people. Drakul doesnt have any connection to vampires at all (that we know of), rather his son Dracula specifically and intentionally Created the Black Court in the course of vague family Drama and daddy issues.
I think the relevant WOJ leaned pretty strongly in the direction that Vlad Dracula didn't intend on exactly the result he got by founding the Black Court. It wasn't explicit, but I got the sense he'd halfway flubbed an ascension ritual and turned himself into a monster rather than a minor god.I got a similar impression, though Im not personally leaning toward an ascension-ritual persay. Per WOJ "They're actually tainted by something hideous and unworldly", and Drakul is something "entirely unhuman that got trapped in human form". I think Dracula Tried to get in touch with the "extended family" and got tainted/possessed by what he let in. Or rather let Inside... <Insert ominous thunderclap here>
Issues keeping the two straight,That, I confabulate them as the same person cause for years I thought they were.
1it doesn't have to be rooted in angelic power, but isn't it? Drakul in the DF I think is literally Lucifer trapped in a mortal vessel without his power
Nice explanation for Michael's description of Mavra, but I'm afraid it doesn't hold together. We know Lucifer is not deprived of his power, because he sponsored the Hellfire pentagram traps in Small Favor - Uriel confirmed Harry's deduction that energy expenditure on that level had to indicate an archangel 'cheated' to involve himself, by saying that was what gave him room to balance the scales by granting Harry soulfire.Agreed, for the same evidence.
Nice explanation for Michael's description of Mavra, but I'm afraid it doesn't hold together. We know Lucifer is not deprived of his power, because he sponsored the Hellfire pentagram traps in Small Favor - Uriel confirmed Harry's deduction that energy expenditure on that level had to indicate an archangel 'cheated' to involve himself, by saying that was what gave him room to balance the scales by granting Harry soulfire.Never said his power wasn't there, just that' its' not with him
@GiftedMonster Though for the record, the Dresden universe angels have been around since before time was a Thing. #TemporalHipstersAnd another I can't find that talks about how the fallen might only 'think' their the original beings. Which i'd point out if a greek woman was really what Lasciel originally looked like then Human's would have to always been a part of creation which Isn't true per the dragon's being annoyed they moved into such a position of importance when they arrived. So the idea a dragon being an angel from the dino age makes some sense, Lucifer being the fallen snake makes more so.
As he was quickly signing books, I figured I wouldn't be able to get a long answer out of him, so I shot for a yes no question - "Does Satan rule hell like Hades rules his place?" was what I tried to ask, but as soon as I said "Does Satan rule hell-" he frowned and said no. But then he heard the rest of my question and elaborated. I think I remember his answer verbatim: "Hades is like the CEO of his own small company, sort of. Satan is more like an officer of a sprawling multinational conglomerate - the hierarchy of hell operates exactly like a corporation, obviously" By 'an officer', I assume he meant CEO, what with being a fallen archangel and all, but the word he used was officer.
Q: Difference between the Fallen and other creatures from Hell?
A: Fallen are like corporate – they’ve got the backing of an organization.
All of this is a great indicator that Lara can't simply be blocked into "the bad guy" category I find Thomas's paragraph monologue at the end unconvincing.(click to show/hide)
Die of syphilis? God, no, man. Stoker was the cutout. :)
The BC didn't /know/ about the WC's involvement until well after the fact, at which point it was entirely academic. The BC who are left survive because they are extremely pragmatic. They don't have enough trouble surviving /without/ picking a fight with the entire White Court, who will only send the peasants and pitchforks anyway? If one needs to vent one's spleen, one does it on hapless mortals, preferably those no one will miss.
The BC who wanted to get all ballsy about Just Vengeance died in the fifties and sixties, culminating in the heyday of the Hammer films
Back the White COurt and Venatores for a moment here's a direct transcription of the scene in Back Up where Thomas explains the Oblivion War to Bob.(click to show/hide)
Okay so gimme a minute that's like three pages of typing....
We know from this and the scene in Cold Days where Harry picks up a copy of the Brothers Grimm dedicated to Mab, that Mab came up with the idea of using the dessimination of information to alert the public first using vague folktales of the Brothers Grimm.
Hard to say if this was the inspiration for the White Council's policy of dessimination like they did with the Necronomicon or they got the idea's directly from the Venatores like Mab did.
Lara in turn used this policy with Stoker's book who was a pretty poor playwright as a go to guide to kill Black Court during the Black Court Purge, and if Quantus and that WOJ is to believe who are themselves tainted with the Outside.
All of this is a great indicator that Lara can't simply be blocked into "the bad guy" category I find Thomas's paragraph monologue at the end unconvincing.(click to show/hide)
Seems like a lot of millenia of work to cut down competition.
Also whose Marduk and Tiamat?
There's a thread on the board by a roman historian whose an expert on Latin that Jim made a msitake with this Latin translation of "Venatori Umbrorum" just like he did with Die der Erlking. I jokingly suggested that he did it intentionally that there's a triple meaning to Venatori. Who know's maybe there is?
The Prosthanos Society seems like dead ringers for the Fomor maybe they're apart of them? It'd make sense as the Fomor is an amalgamation of dark gods and goddesses who've been forgotten likely largely due to the efforts of the Venatores.
Also if the Archive leads the Venatores and presumably knows of the Fae's role as Guaridans of the Outer Gates as well as they're obviously more connected role with the natural world and the change of seasons... Why try to get rid of them? Presumably the chaos of the 1600s and 1700s were one of those insane periods Thomas was talking about.
How would Thomas even know about those insane periods if theirs no recorded history of the Venatores activities?
Okay so to sum up let's make some presumptions on some dark gods, pantheons who the Venatores have been partially succesful against, as obviously we wouldn't know of the totally succesful ones.
In the book series that we know of.
Books:
-Black Court (Lara's direct involvement with Stoker)
-Fomor (speculative given Leansidhe's description during Bombshells. I can quote it at request but I feel like this post has enough of that for one post)
-Kemmler (The destruction of all copies of Kemmler's other works and of that of Die der Erlking combined with Thomas's shifty behaviour and help)
-Red Court (If you're including Lara and Thomas's support during said Chicken Pizza operation)
- Inca and Mayan gods that appear in the DFRPG Paranet Papers
Speculative outside the Books
Real World:
-Titans (Probably they're greatest failure as they are so closely tied with Greek myths and much of our ancestral knowledge in a variety of fields comes from Greek culture)
- Egyptian demons like Apophis (Second greates failure thanks to Stargate)
-Gaulish deities (The fact that we know so little of Gaulish myths and what we do know is innacurate colorful descriptions by Julius Caesar which have largely been discounted. No other evidence of the wicker man for instance nor do we know whom Obelisks were supposed to worship. Finally Apollo and Mars seem to have taken over most of their gods in the Roman period)
Any others people can think of?
Here (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,34801.msg1663694.html#msg1663694) is the WOJ that explains Ivy's role with the Oblivion War.(click to show/hide)
Do you think given the theory that the Black Court were created in part from energy from The Outside, that the Archive had a direct hand in ordering Lara and the Ventores to get rid of them?
Lara took the strategy she used as a Venatore and inverted it to combat an enemy on this side of reality. The Archive likely didn't have much to say on the matter one way or another, past maybe a smirk of seeing someone new figuring out that trick.
What makes for interesting thought experiments, as Con is suggesting, is to think through other examples where that tactic has been used in the DV, and test the waters to see if we can spot any other likely Vanatores.
Thank You Fro- (seriously?) Froklsnt
But yes I think the Fomor from their description of 'dark gods' from various pantheons, are that they are defeated gods who the Venatores may have had a hand in their downfall or at least lack of remembrance in humanity.
I don't know about them being forgotten in the well. If you're an (effectively) Immortal being and your buddy, also and Immortal is locked up in the well, are you going to forget them?
I'm beginning to think that part of the goal of Peace Talks will be for the Fomor to negotiate the release of some of the inmates.
I'm not sure that applies; I've always thought that it was mortal memory that counted, for the Oblivion War and other things. Like Mab working with Disney (conjecture by Harry in Cold Days) to spread fairy tales in the last century. She should have all the Sidhe belief she needs, what with the millions of soldiers hanging out at the Outer Gates. I figured similar rules apply to Cthulhu.
Confirmed by Thomas in the Short Story Back Up and COnfirmed by the dedication in the Grimm book in Cold Days. Mab spread fairy tales.
Hades as Erlking... huh can't believe I hadn't thought of that.Huh, interesting. Never caught that.
Mostly I still refer to the meaning of anagram Erlking and Kringle
I'm not sure that applies; I've always thought that it was mortal memory that counted, for the Oblivion War and other things. Like Mab working with Disney (conjecture by Harry in Cold Days) to spread fairy tales in the last century. She should have all the Sidhe belief she needs, what with the millions of soldiers hanging out at the Outer Gates. I figured similar rules apply to Cthulhu.
Not knowing for sure what the requirements are for any being to be consigned to oblivion, and by that I mean I don't know what kind of being is ABLE to be consigned.
CAN a Naggloshii be consigned, for example?
The Naggloshii that are on the mortal plane are already here, so Oblivion isn't an option for them. They don't need a mortal to allow their influence on this plane because they're already here, and can influence just fine themselves, thank you. A Naggloshii in the Nevernever, as a semi-divine being, is probably at risk for that, though.
There is a separate, unanswered question about how mortal belief affects non-mortal beings who are already here. I expect we will get a lot of answers to that in book 18, which Jim told the DF Podcast would be about washed up gods as pro-wrestlers.
Well, sort of. Those Naggloshii that are in the Well Came from another realm and were supposed to go back but decided to stay. Would that be enough, after removing them from mortal memory to consign them?
I think that falls into the unanswered questions of how belief affects (semi)divine beings on the mortal plane. Maybe if no one knew what it was, it would be powerless. Maybe it could pop out of the Well one day and simply go "Ahh! After ten thousand years I'm free! It's time to conquer Earth!"
I don't think we've been given that information yet. My guess is that it would be weakened but still able to act. In that state, it could make itself known to mortals and begin fostering new beliefs about it, and rebuilding it's power, like Odin did. I think there's a WoJ about creatures inspiring new legends to regain their power.
See, and what I'm picturing is the opposite. I'm picturing that once they are sufficiently forgotten, they disappear out of the well. Eventually leaving a depression where a new inmate could be place.I whole heartedly agree. Think that's part of the point of imprisonment, to waste away into oblivion. Explains the way some of them aren't Named, any identity itself has been forgotten but the idea itself, the entity is not.
See, and what I'm picturing is the opposite. I'm picturing that once they are sufficiently forgotten, they disappear out of the well. Eventually leaving a depression where a new inmate could be place.
Fascinating idea. Could be. That theory would mean that everything in there right now, all 12 (or 13) hallways worth of beasties are still known on Earth. In that case, either the previous wardens were very busy adding inmates, or it takes geologic levels of time for these things to be "sufficiently forgotten."
Fascinating idea. Could be. That theory would mean that everything in there right now, all 12 (or 13) hallways worth of beasties are still known on Earth. In that case, either the previous wardens were very busy adding inmates, or it takes geologic levels of time for these things to be "sufficiently forgotten."
I can't remember, but I thought the Archive hangs onto the memory for a century, or 1000 years to be sure it doesn't pop up again, then "forgets" the entity, and they are then considered consigned to oblivion.yea, hopefully anyway. I mean what if someones been secreting it down for generations via oblivion war and then suddenly revives it as an idea with nobody realizing how old and dangerous it actually is?
yea, hopefully anyway. I mean what if someones been secreting it down for generations via oblivion war and then suddenly revives it as an idea with nobody realizing how old and dangerous it actually is?
Wouldn't the Archive know that that 'book' or whatever still exists? And if it's passed on verbally, she'd know that too.Perhaps, but it seems she knows what was written, not necessarily if it continues to exist after it's written. Otherwise i'd see little point to keeping a look out for so long, overkill? She's looking for renewed references.
Personally I think the Archive is flawed at best. Oral History works, sometimes even better than written history. Written history languages change, translations get changed people argue over minute nuance of meaning of a single word that can change the entire text. Think of your favourite song as a kid and think about how everytime that song comes on you find yourself singing to the words even though you had no conscious knowledge of having memorised it. It's muscle memory in your brain.
Oral History is exactly like that it's the reason we know Homer's works so well. The reason why in my own country aboriginal dreamtime stories remember a time when the world was covered in ICE. They live in Australia people this is from tribes who haven't seen ice for centuries in the middle of the desert or rainforest. The description matches. Admittedly a lot of that knowledge of history and culture died out particularly in the last two centuries or so. But how the hell would the Archive know which Old Dark Gods of Aboriginal legends are still around. They haven't been written down ever to begin with and arguably this makes them more powerful as they are harder to forget well unless humanity forgets the tribe that remembers them of course.
The last few posts in this thread are superb examples of why the Oblivion War, as a concept, really doesn't make sense.
Just as Ivy has all that magical lore in her head, she also has everything about hacking. So she could potentially search and wipe out any tainted knowledge on the net. She would know the instant some one made a digital copy, so ready to attack when posted.