There was a woj on cowl and mavra.Or, if you're a fan of time travel theories, her story is already over. ;)
I believe the question asked about both and their longevity going forward.
From what I recall, the woj suggests mavras end is coming sooner than later. So I took that coals storyline will continue longer than mavras.
I feel, though, that we haven't seen the end of her. Didn't Jim say that she would appear in Mirror Mirror, actually as an ally? I wonder if she was able to use the Word, too. She does have power.
Given that Kemmler was a necromancer, it fits that anything dead would want to limit his knowledge from getting out into the general public (of the supernatural world)
The WOJ was ambiguous to an extent, but given that his phrasing was 'fast ally' I think prevailing opinion was that she's an ally to evil Mirror Dresden. Prime Harry might collaborate with her temporarily if it was necessary to confront a mutual enemy he considered even worse, but I don't think he could condone her as more than a temporary truce of necessity.
What Mavra can't tell the difference between the two Harry's? Prime Harry could work with Mavra, but for a different goal than what Mavra would expect.What if Prime Harry is more insightful than !Harry and uses Necromancy vs Mavra where !Harry cannot.
Speaking of which Lara, Mavra, and Cowl have been absentee for the last third of the series. Are there any other villians that need to make a re-appearance? Additionally, what has been going on with the Senior Council since Changes? I really want to see their reaction to the new super-charged Harry.Some of them have a recurring pattern, jim has acknowledged vaguely. Like the Denarians every five books, for example.
Some of them have a recurring pattern, jim has acknowledged vaguely. Like the Denarians every five books, for example.
I expect most if not all of those to appear in the next one for the Peace Talks (probably not Cowl, at least not as an envoy).
Or, if you're a fan of time travel theories, her story is already over.
Skin Game threw me for a bit of a loop with that. I'd kept expecting at least a B-plot with vampires, since one court or another has been significant somehow in every multiple of three up until SG.Damn, good point. OK, sooooo....What if Hades is somehow the progenitor of the White Court? Their official Court Language is from the right general region. Maybe the spirit half of that particular breed of "half-born" was a greco-roman something?
Damn, good point. OK, sooooo....What if Hades is somehow the progenitor of the White Court? Their official Court Language is from the right general region. Maybe the spirit half of that particular breed of "half-born" was a greco-roman something?
Im reaching hard for something, help me out
Damn, good point. OK, sooooo....What if Hades is somehow the progenitor of the White Court? Their official Court Language is from the right general region. Maybe the spirit half of that particular breed of "half-born" was a greco-roman something?Are's and Aphrodite had triplets named, terror, lust and despair. ;) one Greco-Roman connection.
Im reaching hard for something, help me out
Are's and Aphrodite had triplets named, terror, lust and despair. ;) one Greco-Roman connection.Interesting
9 BCV, Glau, Whatever came out of ATThat was book 8. Book 9 was White Night.
InterestingOh, oops. I wondered why I had to strain on that. WN is easier, We got Raith which covers vamps and N. Cowl, Elaine, ect.
That was book 8. Book 9 was White Night.
The council expert on the vampire courts was killed, but I. Wonder what happened to his gathered lord. I could see mavra and cowl eager for the parts concerning the BCV, that combined with necromancy would have epic consequences.
Are's and Aphrodite had triplets named, terror, lust and despair. ;) one Greco-Roman connection.
That's somewhat of a stretch. The children of Ares and Aphrodite are usually Harmonia (Harmony), Phobos (Fear), and Deimos (Terror), or just Phobos and Deimos.well,
Later on Eros and Anteros (gods of love) can be listed as children of Ares and Aphrodite.
But Eros is love and desire, not merely lust (though that's included), and Phobos/Deimos are more like battlefield fears (panic/rout/terror) than despair.
In Greek mythology, Eros (/ˈɪərɒs/ or US: /ˈɛrɒs/, /ˈɛroʊs/;[2] Greek: Ἔρως, "Desire")[3] was the Greek god of sexual attraction. His Roman counterpart was Cupid[4] ("desire").While none of what you say is inherently untrue,(although I give your Eros proclamation a stink eye on it being in the direction of a pure historical opinion at this pointin space/time)but purely looking at it from aspects of power, not from beliefs around those powers the result is the same there. fear, terror, lust in origin. All lines up.
Phobos (Ancient Greek: Φόβος, pronounced [pʰóbos], meaning "fear") is the personification of fear in Greek mythology.
Phobos in Greek literally means fear (Ancient Greek: Φόβος). Spartan soldiers would idolize Phobos, because he symbolized discipline, and consistency of the armed forces.
Deimos[pronunciation?] (Ancient Greek: Δεῖμος, pronounced [dêːmos], meaning "dread"), is the Greek god of terror.
well,While none of what you say is inherently untrue,(although I give your Eros proclamation a stink eye on it being in the direction of a pure historical opinion at this pointin space/time)but purely looking at it from aspects of power, not from beliefs around those powers the result is the same there. fear, terror, lust in origin. All lines up.There's also the roman evolution to consider, much like Hades to pluto.
Hmm I've always been of the opinion the Wampire's Hunger is from the Outside. It doesn't fit that they'd be from a Greek offshoot as all the Greek beings or descendants of are part of the Natural Order whether they've turned it Sidhe or a Guardians of Items of Power like Hades.How are the Wampires not "part of the natural order" where Gorgans and cyclopes and, well, a lot of the Fomor still are?
Plus it fits in with the theme that the Venatores are fighting the Outside and Elder Gods as they have a link to them already, like they're trying to fight their own dual natures.
I've always imagined their demon side to be something like a bloodline curse like the Loup Garou curse, not a natural part of the world order, but I guess I could be wrong the emotions they feed on and their antithesis are part of the natural order in a lot of animals. or at least mammals.What gets me about the White Court and makes me want to say they are more part of Nature than the rest is that they are Born, (can) retain their Soul's, and are "mortal" in the sense of Free Willed beings that could be a Denarian or a Knight or whatever. Of the 3-7 Vampire Courts out there, that's special so far.
I could have been confusing Black Court and White Court in my mind now that you mention it.
All this to say I love the idea that the Wampires are a greek mythos offshoot race. Greek myths were full of thatMmm i'm gonna make a complete and total Wag off of that, just to see if i'm right myself :)
Combine that with the fact that Drakul is "something entirely unhuman that got trapped in human form" and Dracula created the Black Court "in an effort to win his father's approval"
Could you direct me to a WoJ on that? That's a new one on me.Sure thing, Here you go.. It's the second part, but the Black Court portion of the "Are they Evil" part is also informative
2015 AMA
Are all red courts and black court vampires evil?
This is a pretty huge question and depends a lot on how you view the world.
Red Court vampires, by definition, to become a vampire, have to murder someone else to become what they are. They have to end another person's life to satisfy a desire that does not /need/ to be satisfied in order for them to continue living. Every single one of them makes a choice to sate that desire rather than allow another human being to live--the Fellowship of St. Giles proves that.
(Of course, there are shades of grey involved--a half-vampire who was kept starving and without water in a basement for three days before they were thrown a mortal has a much more difficult time making a clear-headed choice than a half-vampire who was restrained yet cared for by a group of religiously fanatic monks at a Fellowship stronghold, but there's still a choice being made.)
That could, by some people, be considered a working definition of evil. Sometimes unfortunate, sometimes understandable as to how someone could make that choice, but evil nonetheless.
Black Court Vamps are a different story. They're actually tainted by something hideous and unworldly. They are driven to kill to survive. They don't really have a lot of choice about it. They enjoy being what they are, and doing what they do. They can be sad that they don't have someone who loves them, or upset that the world has passed them by and has changed on them, but at the end of the day, they're basically black-hearts who occasionally pull out a few of the tattered remains of their humanity, fail to fit back into them like they used to, and get maudlin about their glory days when they could watch the sun rise.
And also what is Drakul a scion of?
Drakul wasn't a scion of anything! He was something entirely unhuman that got trapped in human form. Dracula was his half-human child, who naturally had enormous paternal issues, and wound up creating himself as the first Black Court Vampire in an effort to win his father's approval.
It didn't work out so well.
If Drakul really linked to the BCV via Dracula, then I wonder if one can affect the other. I had this theory concerning an altered version of the dark hollow ritual, using the BCV as a fuel source. It could make the ritual work, or some how affect Drakul.
Was that you?They don't need a hallow though, every time they consume a life they are doing a smaller version of eating spirits. directly from people along with life.... and hopefully not the soul.
damn I thought that was woj. Great theory though man.
I thought the Black Court Elders Dark Hollow was one of the reasons they were a threat to Mab and why she had a hand in stopping them. White Court having got the idea of using printing press to use mortal authorities in part from Mab and the Grimm fairytales.
I think the theory was that during the Black Court Purge, the thirteen Elders of the Black COurt gathered together to perform the Dark Hollow at Tugunska where Ebenezar wiped them out. They were performing the Dark Hollow to survive and ascend from the Purge.The Darkhallow as we've seen it would need a hell of a lot more Life than an isolated part of Siberia, no?
The Darkhallow as we've seen it would need a hell of a lot more Life than an isolated part of Siberia, no?
I think the theory was they were going to use the Black Court as the fuel. I dunno I read the theory awhile ago I think when I first joined I'll try to find it.I think that would only get you half-way. Black Court vamps operate on necromantic energy, so they'd be playing the role of the Ghosts for the Darkhallow, but you still need an equivalent amount of Life energy to backfill the space once the Necromantic energy gets sucked in and starts creating the Vacuum.
I think that would only get you half-way. Black Court vamps operate on necromantic energy, so they'd be playing the role of the Ghosts for the Darkhallow, but you still need an equivalent amount of Life energy to backfill the space once the Necromantic energy gets sucked in and starts creating the Vacuum.
Well maybe they brought the population with them, I mean how deserted is the area around Chitzen ItzaIt's a dense Jungle, as opposed to a sparcly forested snow desert. The sort of Life we are talking is on the order of Millions of mortals (and so presumably exponentially more per the Zombie rules), which is not the sort of population you can just import.
I like that theory it also possibly supports my theory that the Dark Hallow and y extension the Word of Kemmler was based on the Black Court and their magic.Thinking about how BLV feed, slurping down a whole life. One wonders if every time they feed it's not a miniature DH. They begin draining the life so fast the spirit gets caught up in the 'vortex' too. Instant upgrade.
Could their be an adaptation of the Dark Hallow where instead of taking life it turns people into lack Court to get numbers risen again?
Thinking about how BLV feed, slurping down a whole life. One wonders if every time they feed it's not a miniature DH. They begin draining the life so fast the spirit gets caught up in the 'vortex' too. Instant upgrade.That's basically the theory yeah, but I don't wanna take too much away from Anubissama's theory of Queen Mavra. How do you think she'd use the Word of Kemmler? How do you think she'd organise her court?
Thinking about how BLV feed, slurping down a whole life. One wonders if every time they feed it's not a miniature DH. They begin draining the life so fast the spirit gets caught up in the 'vortex' too. Instant upgrade.fwiw, this has always been my interpretation of the WOJ that alluded to the Erlking using Darkhallow mechanisms: that the Erlking added to his Power one Hunt, one Prey at a Time
fwiw, this has always been my interpretation of the WOJ that alluded to the Erlking using Darkhallow mechanisms: that the Erlking added to his Power one Hunt, one Prey at a TimeMakes sense to me, hasn't it twice now shown up on Halloween? Still in his old hobbies.
Makes sense to me, hasn't it twice now shown up on Halloween? Still in his old hobbies.And in CD he indicated that a Halloween Hunt is a yearly tradition.
I wonder how Vadderung/Kringle maintains his power now that he's MORTAL that's right quantus, I said it What?! COme at me Bro!Blood sacrifice of babies and the cutest puppies, obviously :P
The worship from his Einherjaar and Valkyrie can't be enough, information is obviously crucial to it given how well informed he is. Their must be something that keeps him on par with Mab enough to tell her to "get in line" or just barely avoid "tedious duels".
That's basically the theory yeah, but I don't wanna take too much away from Anubissama's theory of Queen Mavra. How do you think she'd use the Word of Kemmler? How do you think she'd organise her court?Depends...
Blood sacrifice of babies and the cutest puppies, obviously :P
That's basically the theory yeah, but I don't wanna take too much away from Anubissama's theory of Queen Mavra. How do you think she'd use the Word of Kemmler? How do you think she'd organise her court?Ok now that your post gave me a brain fart and I hunted up the clue I needed.
And a one-on-thirtyish fight (Mab vs the elders of the BCI'm feeling waggish. I think the BCE were actually starting to replace old mantles held by the 30 fallen. cause ya know Dracula=son of dragon=winged serpent=fallen angel, ect. They actually both are primarily based on angelic power. So maybe Mavra want's to eat them all up and become a super angel/ fallen/ undead born goddess?
Depends...30-ish Black Court Elders. Thirteen is the number of Grey Council Members and the max number that can collaborate on a spell via a Circle, but it sometimes gets confused in discussion
In need of info, do we KNOW there were 13 BC Elders? I thought it was said to be 30 but I can't find any numbers in any listed woj at all.
4. if the elders of the black court could have taken mab, then HOW ON EARTH did any mere force of humans manage to go up and stake them? i mean, they should've wiped out anything that was coming after them if they can take on MAB herself...just a thought
Power in the spirit world isn't the same thing as power in the material world. And a one-on-thirtyish fight (Mab vs the elders of the BC) is WAY different than a one-on-20,000 fight (a BC vampire against a modest mortal city). Especially when the 20,000 know what your weaknesses are, and how to kill you with them. Smiley And that's assuming that you don't have a saint, or an independent wizard, or a shaman, a Knight of the Cross or some other champion, or other spiritual allies on your side which was not uncommon. Hell, for that matter, you might well be aided by vampires from the other Courts. *Everyone* resented how powerful the Blacks had become.
To me it sounds like Drakul is a potential inmate for the well, but after it is released from its human shape cage.
Part of me hopes the BCV would be wiped out, but unless something akin to the bloodline curse is used, it would be very tricky. I am at least hoping for the remaining elders and nobles of the court get dealt with. Without the protection of their patrons, the remains of the court would be hunted and removed.
The thing is with such a limited number of elders, I doubt they would ever gather together as it would present too big a target. So it would be a big deal for them to do so.
30-ish Black Court Elders. Thirteen is the number of Grey Council Members and the max number that can collaborate on a spell via a Circle, but it sometimes gets confused in discussion
Sure thing, Here you go.. It's the second part, but the Black Court portion of the "Are they Evil" part is also informative:QuoteAnd also what is Drakul a scion of?
Drakul wasn't a scion of anything! He was something entirely unhuman that got trapped in human form. Dracula was his half-human child, who naturally had enormous paternal issues, and wound up creating himself as the first Black Court Vampire in an effort to win his father's approval.
It didn't work out so well.
Same. Finding out he was the Founder changed things dramatically, not the least of which is anchors the Black Court as the youngest by FAR (of the three we've seen, anyway). Id always discounted theories of Mavra being (or becoming) an Elder based on the assumption that the Elders would be a few thousand years old like the oldest of the Reds or Whites. But now we know that a)they are all going to be a 1000 years or less (give or take) and b)they gain power via pure bodycount, so in the right circumstances they could really thrive. And by "right circumstances" I mean anything that might have a Horseman of the Apocalypse Named after it.
Thanks! I had missed that last. I remembered reading someone in-story refer to Dracula running away to join the Black Court, but I had not realized that he had founded it.
Same. Finding out he was the Founder changed things dramatically, not the least of which is anchors the Black Court as the youngest by FAR (of the three we've seen, anyway). Id always discounted theories of Mavra being (or becoming) an Elder based on the assumption that the Elders would be a few thousand years old like the oldest of the Reds or Whites. But now we know that a)they are all going to be a 1000 years or less (give or take) and b)they gain power via pure bodycount, so in the right circumstances they could really thrive. And by "right circumstances" I mean anything that might have a Horseman of the Apocalypse Named after it.
All of a sudden, my mind flashes to Kemmler, who according to Bob had a big hand in bringing about the Great War. Bob told Harry that Kemmler had spent the better part of a century setting it up (which makes sense, because the international tensions that exploded in 1914 had deep roots), but he never did give Harry/us any real motive other than that Kemmler was 'crazy and evil'. Bob did, however, tell Harry that Kemmler had allies in the vampire courts.
Now crazy and evil can certainly motivate people, but spending decades on end carefully setting up something as big as World War I presumably had some purpose beyond 'just because'. But if you wanted your Black Court allies to have a chance to level up quickly, that would be a way to go about it.
The thing is with such a limited number of elders, I doubt they would ever gather together as it would present too big a target. So it would be a big deal for them to do so.
All of a sudden, my mind flashes to Kemmler, who according to Bob had a big hand in bringing about the Great War. Bob told Harry that Kemmler had spent the better part of a century setting it up (which makes sense, because the international tensions that exploded in 1914 had deep roots), but he never did give Harry/us any real motive other than that Kemmler was 'crazy and evil'. Bob did, however, tell Harry that Kemmler had allies in the vampire courts.Yes they did, the ground work and death before a dark hallow is part of what makes up how big and bad it's actually going to be, he was setting the groundwork for his own DH that woulda made DB's look like a kitty ride by comparison. iirc, first time they killed him was before he could pull it off.
Now crazy and evil can certainly motivate people, but spending decades on end carefully setting up something as big as World War I presumably had some purpose beyond 'just because'. But if you wanted your Black Court allies to have a chance to level up quickly, that would be a way to go about it.
I basically he was just setting up a fertile environment for Chaos, Death, and Change. Which is something that benefited Blamps just as much as kemmler. Probably was a great time for Nic too, I bet he was jealous. Any or all of them could have been co-conspirators, allies, and/or complicit bystanders in that time.Chaos is a ladder.
Chaos is a ladder.Oh my god, my childhood wasnt wasted!
Oh my god, my childhood wasnt wasted!Methinks Harry would have been better served playing Guess Who, considering his... nemesis...(click to show/hide)
I. Hope if Harry sees mavra that he carries out his threat and uses necromancy on her, to either turn her into a weapon against other threats or force her into facing the sun/walk into the fire.Or just unmake the magics keeping her animated, causing her to crumble into a pile of dust at a casual wave of his hand.