ParanetOnline
The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: LordDresden2 on July 30, 2017, 04:24:47 AM
-
It strikes me that there might eventually be an issue with Butters and Bob playing Batman, and that's the Council.
Remember, Luccio told Harry that they knew about Bob, as a former assistant-spirit to Kemmler. She also said that the Council had a 'destroy on site' order out for Bob, because he was too dangerous to be allowed to run loose, and in fact that he had been destroyed. In fact, of course, Justin had taken the skull from Kemmler's base and Harry had inherited him.
But now Butters is out there using Bob to energize various magical weapons and tools, and using them relatively openly. If the Council notices that Butters is suddenly wielding devices using way more magical energy than he should be able to manifest, someone might get curious as to how the former medical examiner is suddenly tapped into so much power, and if they took a closer look and realized how he was doing it, then suddenly Harry and Butters and the Chicago Alliance have Trouble with a capitol T right here Lake Michigan City.
I wonder if anybody's thought about that risk...
-
It strikes me that there might eventually be an issue with Butters and Bob playing Batman, and that's the Council.
Remember, Luccio told Harry that they knew about Bob, as a former assistant-spirit to Kemmler. She also said that the Council had a 'destroy on site' order out for Bob, because he was too dangerous to be allowed to run loose, and in fact that he had been destroyed. In fact, of course, Justin had taken the skull from Kemmler's base and Harry had inherited him.
But now Butters is out there using Bob to energize various magical weapons and tools, and using them relatively openly. If the Council notices that Butters is suddenly wielding devices using way more magical energy than he should be able to manifest, someone might get curious as to how the former medical examiner is suddenly tapped into so much power, and if they took a closer look and realized how he was doing it, then suddenly Harry and Butters and the Chicago Alliance have Trouble with a capitol T right here Lake Michigan City.
I wonder if anybody's thought about that risk...
If and when they find out someone isn't going to like it you can be sure of that.. Someone on the Council will want to confiscate him, some will want him studied, some will want him destroyed, and others will want to use him themselves.
-
The entire reason Butters and company have had to step up so openly is that the Council doesn't have assets on the ground in Chicago. Now that Harry's back, they'll have an even better excuse to continue ignoring the Fomor push on the city. Also given that the senior Wardens are under the impression Bob was destroyed in Kemmler's lab rather than taken by Justin, there's plenty of room for them to remain ignorant unless Jim chooses to write some coincidences to make Bob coming to light into a subplot.
Another angle that I think might be riskier than Butters' gear is that Evil Bob is still out there. If some of his schemes get on the Council's radar and they trace the deception about him being destroyed back to Justin, it's a short jump to Harry.
-
The entire reason Butters and company have had to step up so openly is that the Council doesn't have assets on the ground in Chicago. Now that Harry's back, they'll have an even better excuse to continue ignoring the Fomor push on the city. Also given that the senior Wardens are under the impression Bob was destroyed in Kemmler's lab rather than taken by Justin, there's plenty of room for them to remain ignorant unless Jim chooses to write some coincidences to make Bob coming to light into a subplot.
Another angle that I think might be riskier than Butters' gear is that Evil Bob is still out there. If some of his schemes get on the Council's radar and they trace the deception about him being destroyed back to Justin, it's a short jump to Harry.
My guess is that at some point Harry will need some outside help to deal with Evil Bob and that help might have to come from the Council. It's one thing for Harry to try to explain to the Council that Bob purged himself of Kemmler's knowledge and influence; it's another for Harry to simply say, "I first saw this disembodied skull with Corpsetaker (or Corpsetaker's shade) and I thought it looked very much like the skull Justin kept in his lab, with similar designs and sigils carved into it except Justin's skull didn't speak or float in mid air." Harry wouldn't even be lying. (Probably) The first time Harry saw Evil Bob was when the disembodied skull was working for Corpsetaker and I bet the first time Bob spoke to Harry was after Harry had killed Justin and left his master's lab a smoking wreck.
-
It would still prompt questions of, if they knew Justin had stolen the skull, why it didn't turn up in the wreckage after Harry defeated him.
-
Did the whole council have a "destroy on sight" order for Bob, or just the Wardens?
-
Did the whole council have a "destroy on sight" order for Bob, or just the Wardens?
The Wardens do not act unilaterally, the original order had to have come down from the Council, or at least the Senior Council.
-
They arent going to execute Bob on sight, they'd need to actually recognize him as the same Spirit that belonged to Kemmler, and he currently looks, acts, and I daresay his energy Feels substantially different. And now he has the very real and truthful defense that HE is not that Spirit, not anymore.
So the only way it's going to get pushed is if somebody traces the Skull back to Kemmler via Harry and Justin. Which in retrospect might well be another reason he wanted a spare skull. Otherwise the more likely public explanation is that Butters got it from Marcone's organization. It would have started appearing post BFS-founding but while Harry was good and dead.
-
They arent going to execute Bob on sight, they'd need to actually recognize him as the same Spirit that belonged to Kemmler, and he currently looks, acts, and I daresay his energy Feels substantially different. And now he has the very real and truthful defense that HE is not that Spirit, not anymore.
Makes no difference. Remember, the Council is not about justice, but restraining power and maintaining public safety. They don't want Bob destroyed (and they think he has been destroyed, remember) as a punishment, they want him destroyed as a preventive measure. Too much knowledge and power with too little restraint. That's true whether he's good, bad, or neutral.
-
The entire reason Butters and company have had to step up so openly is that the Council doesn't have assets on the ground in Chicago.
For the time being, yes. But eventually they'll have agents in place again, probably a resident Warden (Chicago's a natural place for a ranking Warden in North America), and Harry being THE Warden means that they'll eventually be focusing a lot of attention in that area. Which means somebody may start hearing some odd stories...
Another angle that I think might be riskier than Butters' gear is that Evil Bob is still out there. If some of his schemes get on the Council's radar and they trace the deception about him being destroyed back to Justin, it's a short jump to Harry.
True enough, and possibly a real risk.
One possible 'out', that the Council might accept (under the right circumstances): Harry could claim that he's holding Bob prisoner in his capacity as THE Warden, letting him operate on limited parole. It's the sort of useful fiction that the Council might pretend to believe if it was politically convenient to do so, and Harry appears to have Bob on a tight leash.
-
Makes no difference. Remember, the Council is not about justice, but restraining power and maintaining public safety. They don't want Bob destroyed (and they think he has been destroyed, remember) as a punishment, they want him destroyed as a preventive measure. Too much knowledge and power with too little restraint. That's true whether he's good, bad, or neutral.
Makes no difference:) They dont want bob dead because they've deemed all Spirits of Intellect to be a Dangerous thing in and of themselves. They want NecroBob destroyed because that one, specifically, knew and did things that were "appalling" according to Luccio. They dont just go execute every Spirit of Intellect. So they'd have to first have a reason to think that Bob is the same one that Kemmler "twisted", before they'd bother.
-
Makes no difference:) They dont want bob dead because they've deemed all Spirits of Intellect to be a Dangerous thing in and of themselves. They want NecroBob destroyed because that one, specifically, knew and did things that were "appalling" according to Luccio. They dont just go execute every Spirit of Intellect. So they'd have to first have a reason to think that Bob is the same one that Kemmler "twisted", before they'd bother.
That depends on how unique Bob is in the first place, until the advent of Evil Bob and now Bonny he might have been the only one outside of the Archive. So it might be a destroy first and ask questions later type of thing. Or lacking imagination, which many Wardens and Council members do, they may not realize that a wacky kid wizard can change the personality of the spirit by naming it "Bob" and imprinting his teen aged over productive hormones on it, changing it.. They may not conceive of the idea that the evil part can be suppressed at all by the holder of the skull. Finally they would not be able to fathom the idea that that spirit because of the last two holders of his skull would successfully rid himself of the evil persona, but more dangerously unwittingly create an evil twin in the process.
-
That depends on how unique Bob is in the first place, until the advent of Evil Bob and now Bonny he might have been the only one outside of the Archive. So it might be a destroy first and ask questions later type of thing. Or lacking imagination, which many Wardens and Council members do, they may not realize that a wacky kid wizard can change the personality of the spirit by naming it "Bob" and imprinting his teen aged over productive hormones on it, changing it.. They may not conceive of the idea that the evil part can be suppressed at all by the holder of the skull. Finally they would not be able to fathom the idea that that spirit because of the last two holders of his skull would successfully rid himself of the evil persona, but more dangerously unwittingly create an evil twin in the process.
Oh, We've been told since way back that there are others SoI out there so I wasnt really thinking on that side. But you are right we only know specifically of the three (including the alluded Athena). My thought was that a) Bob and Necrobob look, act, and feel different, and b) Bob can always very truthfully claim that Evil-bob is the one they really want. And now he also has C) He's the side-kick of a full-time Knight of the Cross, which if not exactly unassailable protection, is still a better bargaining position than if he were owned by an ex-cop or a Polka-meister or a freakin' scary Warlock-Knight of Evil Fairies.
Side topic:
Per WOJ, beings like Bob are incapable of Changing their own Natures (the whole Free Will bit) but they can still Change with enough exposure to Mortals. Once upon a time Bob could not so much as perceive Faith or Angels or anything on that side of the spectrum. But playing magical Jarvis for a Knight of the Cross might just be the sort of thing to move his needle, no?
-
The Wardens do not act unilaterally, the original order had to have come down from the Council, or at least the Senior Council.
Yeah, but my thought was whether or not the entirety of the council was responsible for destroying Bob, or just the Wardens.
-
Yeah, but my thought was whether or not the entirety of the council was responsible for destroying Bob, or just the Wardens.
Well, given that the order theoretically went out during the gathering of their cumulative strength to fight Kemmler, it might have gone out to the bulk of the Council as well as some key allies. On the other hand, the presence of said "Key Allies" might have been enough to warrant the "Clean-up" being managed solely by the Wardens. They'd have expected lots of Dark artifacts and knowledge and probably would fully trust all of the extended alliance.
-
I'm betting that Bonnea will get some negative looks from the Council, and Harry is going to have to defend her.
I think Bob would only have to point to EB to show that it's not HIM they are looking for.
-
And now he also has C) He's the side-kick of a full-time Knight of the Cross,
Good point. :lol: That does potentially change everything.
-
Has WoJ ever said anything about relations between the White Council and the Knights of the Cross? I don't think we've ever seen anything on that subject in the books.
In general they seem to share the same goals, so I can't see any serious conflicts between them. But at the same time, I wouldn't expect the White Council to take too kindly to a Knight's use of a spirit of intellect that should have been destroyed long ago.
-
Has WoJ ever said anything about relations between the White Council and the Knights of the Cross? I don't think we've ever seen anything on that subject in the books.
In general they seem to share the same goals, so I can't see any serious conflicts between them. But at the same time, I wouldn't expect the White Council to take too kindly to a Knight's use of a spirit of intellect that should have been destroyed long ago.
I dont know of anything specific. They seemed on good enough terms in PG when Michael saved their butts, but such circumstances lead to that. I dont know of any long-term relationship, but I dont know of any long-term relationship with the Knights as a whole aside from the Church.
In general the Knights seem to get a lot of respect from nearly everyone (even Binder), but they change often enough and work almost entirely independant, so I suspect they get the benefit of the doubt on being "The Good Guy" in any given situation, but are still judged individually as they come and go, and I doubt there's anything formal. I do note nobody argued too hard against Harry starting a war to save a Sword, or at least nobody argued about that part of it, so I suspect they all respect the Role they play, if not always the individual in that role. And Im quite sure that sometimes the council has goals or priorities that do not align with the Knights, so conflict is certainly possible. And if Michael is correct, the Original Merlin had something to do with the Swords in the early days, so Langtry and/or McCoy might know some interesting things about it.
-
I'd say Langtry's reaction to his appearance at Molly's trial was pretty indicative of them knowing about the KotCs. What will be interesting is how much Arcane magic Butter's will continue to use now that he's got a sword.
-
I'd say Langtry's reaction to his appearance at Molly's trial was pretty indicative of them knowing about the KotCs. What will be interesting is how much Arcane magic Butter's will continue to use now that he's got a sword.
Yes and no. I think it shows they know of the Knights in a general sense, but Langtry didnt know the current ones enough to know Michael by sight, which I think is telling.
-
Yes and no. I think it shows they know of the Knights in a general sense, but Langtry didnt know the current ones enough to know Michael by sight, which I think is telling.
I read that as they just don't cross paths that often, which makes sense when you figure the different purposes.
Speaking of which, We know that the Wouncil is there to limit power, that could be read as limiting free-will. Wouldn't that be contrary to TWGs pursuit of and support of free-will?
-
I read that as they just don't cross paths that often, which makes sense when you figure the different purposes.
Harry had never crossed paths with Papa Wraith and he was known on sight, and Im pretty sure it's happened other times too. We arent talking about knowing every the Council (or for that matter all the various "usual suspects" the Wardens are expected to know on sight), we're talking about knowing the three Ordained Champions of the Almighty *insert ominous chorus music* and in Michael's case, the Knight whose sword Langtry went to War over. McCoy recognized him as a habitual associate of Harry's, but it surprises me that a man as meticulous as Langtry wouldnt stay informed. It's not like Michael was new to the job or anything either.
Speaking of which, We know that the Wouncil is there to limit power, that could be read as limiting free-will. Wouldn't that be contrary to TWGs pursuit of and support of free-will?
Nope, Mortals can Exercise their own Free Will by restricting others all they want (slavery, murder, etc) just like mortal servants of Fallen Angels can freely attach a heavily protected Casa Carpenter. Heaven may or may not like it, and may or may not Judge them for it in their afterlife, but it only gets involved if it's a Non-Mortal interfering with Free Will Causality. Otherwise, Humans are Free to be controlling Jerks to each other.
-
Harry had never crossed paths with Papa Wraith and he was known on sight, and Im pretty sure it's happened other times too. We arent talking about knowing every the Council (or for that matter all the various "usual suspects" the Wardens are expected to know on sight), we're talking about knowing the three Ordained Champions of the Almighty *insert ominous chorus music* and in Michael's case, the Knight whose sword Langtry went to War over. McCoy recognized him as a habitual associate of Harry's, but it surprises me that a man as meticulous as Langtry wouldnt stay informed. It's not like Michael was new to the job or anything either.
Nope, Mortals can Exercise their own Free Will by restricting others all they want (slavery, murder, etc) just like mortal servants of Fallen Angels can freely attach a heavily protected Casa Carpenter. Heaven may or may not like it, and may or may not Judge them for it in their afterlife, but it only gets involved if it's a Non-Mortal interfering with Free Will Causality. Otherwise, Humans are Free to be controlling Jerks to each other.
Point 2, good point.
Point 1 above, I can totally see Langtry knowing that there are only three, and who they are, even though there are only 2 at the moment. However, IIRC, Michael was not in his usual crusaders garb. And having another GUY step through with the other members of the senior council, he just wasn't that prepared, in that frame of reference, to think it might be a KotC.
Knowing that there are only 2 active knights, asking which sword would be appropriate as well.
-
Point 2, good point.
Point 1 above, I can totally see Langtry knowing that there are only three, and who they are, even though there are only 2 at the moment. However, IIRC, Michael was not in his usual crusaders garb. And having another GUY step through with the other members of the senior council, he just wasn't that prepared, in that frame of reference, to think it might be a KotC.
Knowing that there are only 2 active knights, asking which sword would be appropriate as well.
It's not like Machael and Sanya look at all alike, or that any of the other swords have looked anything like a Crusader sword (at least for the last half-century or more). Langtry personally could see Michael and Amoracchius, was told Michael's name and that he's a Knight and he Still had to ask which sword! If he got a file on the Knights, he didnt read it.
-
It's not like Machael and Sanya look at all alike, or that any of the other swords have looked anything like a Crusader sword (at least for the last half-century or more). Langtry personally could see Michael and Amoracchius, was told Michael's name and that he's a Knight and he Still had to ask which sword! If he got a file on the Knights, he didnt read it.
Oh my goodness, Langtry is Nemfected!
-
It's not like Machael and Sanya look at all alike, or that any of the other swords have looked anything like a Crusader sword (at least for the last half-century or more). Langtry personally could see Michael and Amoracchius, was told Michael's name and that he's a Knight and he Still had to ask which sword! If he got a file on the Knights, he didnt read it.
Well, you can't read them all.
That Langtry didn't recognize Michael probably says more about his priorities than about Michael's standing in the supernatural world.
-
Well, you can't read them all.
That Langtry didn't recognize Michael probably says more about his priorities than about Michael's standing in the supernatural world.
When you are talking about a major figure like The Merlin, those two things get pretty close to the same thing, no?
-
As a supernatural big wig, I would have expected Langtry to know who the current KotC are, but he might not have seen a recent photo of Michael. He could also have been testing Harry, seeing what Harry knew of the situation and if this was some plot on his part. Feigning ignorance to make a person tell more information is a common interrogation tactic. Colombo loved it. If Harry didn't know who this Knight was, Langtry might have played things differently.
As for Harry saving the Sword, I recall the argument against Harry wasn't that he saved the Sword, it was his own stupid actions caused it to be in peril to begin with.
-
As a supernatural big wig, I would have expected Langtry to know who the current KotC are, but he might not have seen a recent photo of Michael. He could also have been testing Harry, seeing what Harry knew of the situation and if this was some plot on his part. Feigning ignorance to make a person tell more information is a common interrogation tactic. Colombo loved it. If Harry didn't know who this Knight was, Langtry might have played things differently.
I dont disagree that it might be a reasonable tactic in general, but I dont think that it was at all the case here. Lets look at what he had and what he gained: He knew it was a Knight, Knew the sword shape/type, knew michael wasnt a giant black-skinned Russian or tiny Okinawan man, knew that Harry Knew and his Name and that he was a Knight, knew that the little girl he'd just ordered executed was the daughter of said aforementioned Knight.
What could possibly be gained by feigning ignorance, he got nothing additional other than the word "Amoracchius" from Harry. If that's a move forward, I have no idea what direction he's going
-
I dont disagree that it might be a reasonable tactic in general, but I dont think that it was at all the case here. Lets look at what he had and what he gained: He knew it was a Knight, Knew the sword shape/type, knew michael wasnt a giant black-skinned Russian or tiny Okinawan man, knew that Harry Knew and his Name and that he was a Knight, knew that the little girl he'd just ordered executed was the daughter of said aforementioned Knight.
What could possibly be gained by feigning ignorance, he got nothing additional other than the word "Amoracchius" from Harry. If that's a move forward, I have no idea what direction he's going
Besides Harry's knowledge, Langtry could know what would motivate the man. Which of Faith, Hope, or Love is the Blessed Power imbuing this man. A Knight of Love who is protecting his child from an injustice, and that is something Langtry could see killing Molly as, a necessary Evil, could gain the full Strength to fight the council.
-
Besides Harry's knowledge, Langtry could know what would motivate the man. Which of Faith, Hope, or Love is the Blessed Power imbuing this man. A Knight of Love who is protecting his child from an injustice, and that is something Langtry could see killing Molly as, a necessary Evil, could gain the full Strength to fight the council.
This would be after he knew it was her father.
-
As a supernatural big wig, I would have expected Langtry to know who the current KotC are, but he might not have seen a recent photo of Michael. He could also have been testing Harry, seeing what Harry knew of the situation and if this was some plot on his part. Feigning ignorance to make a person tell more information is a common interrogation tactic. Colombo loved it. If Harry didn't know who this Knight was, Langtry might have played things differently.
As for Harry saving the Sword, I recall the argument against Harry wasn't that he saved the Sword, it was his own stupid actions caused it to be in peril to begin with.
I'd also expect him to know which Sword is Am (since it's the only Broadsword among the Three) but he still asks Harry.
I don't think that the Swords and Wizards cross paths very often- and it's also fair to remember that they seldom are in one hand for long.
(Really though, not knowing about the guy that punched out a Freaking Dragon is pretty weird, now that I think about it. Langtry had to be pulling something there, right?)