Actually, the point is kinda specifically addressed in Small Favor. IIRC Luccio says something about starting a war with "yet another Signatory of the Accords" (even if only a minor member).Ah, I see. I didn't think they ever mentioned them. Nice to know they're keeping tabs on Dresdens actions at least lol.
The fact that the Nickelheads are members of the Accords kinda limits the Council from taking action.
By and large Harry's boot has proven to be Mab's most effective and efficient weapon :)
I was going to say, "That we've seen", but I realized that isn't the truth. I seem to recall a REALLY big weapon we saw of Mab's in Cold Days.In CD? ??? ??? mmm I don't know therefor which you speak? weapon?
Actually, here's a thought:Erm, but would the council know this? Looking at it that way, I'm not so sure a black staff is any different from a dingy coin, because of how I perceive the staff to work.
One of the exceptions to the rules is the Blackstaff. One of the big reasons this is possible is because the Blackstaff is able to shield the user from the corruption effects that come from breaking (at least some of) the Laws.
So what if the Coins offer a similar kind of protection? Sure the cost is your eventual free will, but the fact that the user won't go batshit crazy from Black Magic corruption might be enough that the Council is willing overlook the legal aspects of breaking the laws under a "other Accords signatory" loophole.
Actually, here's a thought:I don't see why it would. The Fallen in the coins would want their host to be more OK with breaking the laws and killing folks. Lash kept poking Harry's internal muderrage button, for instance.
One of the exceptions to the rules is the Blackstaff. One of the big reasons this is possible is because the Blackstaff is able to shield the user from the corruption effects that come from breaking (at least some of) the Laws.
So what if the Coins offer a similar kind of protection? Sure the cost is your eventual free will, but the fact that the user won't go batshit crazy from Black Magic corruption might be enough that the Council is willing overlook the legal aspects of breaking the laws under a "other Accords signatory" loophole.
In CD? ??? ??? mmm I don't know therefor which you speak? weapon?
Big-Assed army at the outer gates.Yea, sure. If she's willing to abandon the walls. But if those troops don't count towards the balance with summer out there, I imagine completely unbalancing it by trying to use them elsewhere would be one of the triggers for Aurora to pull them both into oblivion. So it's about as much of a weapon as DR is for Harry as far as usage beyond it's designated purpose. plus apparently
Well, I'm thinking a couple of things. First is that the Denarians are/were signatories to the Unseelie Accords and as a group could not be lightly touched by the Wouncil.
While they were members of the accords, it would have been a literal act of war to go after them for violating the Laws. I'd chalk it up to mostly not being worth pissing Mab off.
Besides which, the fallen is going to take control if the host starts acting erratically on too large a scale. Allowing a cooperating host like Tessa or Rosanna a few indulgences is one thing, but the Fallen have a purpose and they expect their hosts to mostly stick to acting on it.
One wonders how much of Nicodemus' boasting about being the dominant player and the Fallen following his lead is sheer self-deception. Anduriel may be laughing his shadowy ass off whenever he hears Nicodemus go into that rant.
Side note, I wonder whether Anduriel is the de facto head Denarian because he has a long-lived badass host who's been around since the beginning, or because his eavesdropping is that powerful?Everybody seems willing to follow a man/fallen with a plan. I'd bet Andurial's always been that Fallen, and has a tendency to influence his hosts in that direction I bet. Info being what he's best at it's what he has the most power in to offer. Huh.. Nic just became littlefinger in my mind ;D the goatee, the short stature, it all works rofl.
So unless the Denarians take direct action against the White Council, I really don't see these two bodies coming into direct conflict.
Even before the buildup, the Wardens outnumbered them almost 7-1, and the Denarians are almost never one coherent unit. If the White Council really, seriously decided the Denarians had to go, they'd probably be able to do it, and they'd have a much better chance of securing allies than the Denarians.
I still wonder, once the WC was officially at war with the Rampires and thus they were fair game under the Accords, Eb didn't drop satellites/chunks of asteroid/earthquakes/etc on every Rampire stronghold? Being able to throw around Tunguska Events just seems too overwhelming - I don't see what anyone short of god/cosmic level powers could do to defend against it.
IMO, it wouldn't even be really a war. In Small Favor, Harry describes Tessa as Council-level in a way that implies the other magic-using Denarians aren't. And a lot of the Denarians are just thugs, really terrifying to a mortal but not that much more impressive than the average Rampire. The only ones who I think would pose a real threat to halfway experienced Wardens, assuming equal numbers and barring situational factors heavily favoring the Denarian, are Thorned Namshiel, Tessa, Ursiel (depending on host), and Nic (who's a bit of a special case - assault rifle bullets impair him temporarily, and good evocations are way more destructive than that, so IMO Warden could defend themselves quite well, but they couldn't permanently kill him - unless they knew his weakness, which Harry does, so if he was fighting on the WC's side...)I dont think we should assume that Eb can bring Tunguska level's of Power/Energy to bear any time or place he wants. Any more than Harry can whistle up a Zombie T-Rex or reallocate miles of the earth's gravity any time or place; he was able to pull it off in one instance, but with several lucky things (Ley Lines mostly) all coming together to make it possible.
EDIT: And that's assuming Eb didn't intervene with Blackstaff-stuff.
I still wonder, once the WC was officially at war with the Rampires and thus they were fair game under the Accords, Eb didn't drop satellites/chunks of asteroid/earthquakes/etc on every Rampire stronghold? Being able to throw around Tunguska Events just seems too overwhelming - I don't see what anyone short of god/cosmic level powers could do to defend against it.
Luccio mmmmm ed again. I heard a pencil scratching. “Dresden,” she said, “I cannot stress to you enough how vital it is that we avoid general hostilities, even with a relatively small power.”
I still wonder, once the WC was officially at war with the Rampires and thus they were fair game under the Accords, Eb didn't drop satellites/chunks of asteroid/earthquakes/etc on every Rampire stronghold? Being able to throw around Tunguska Events just seems too overwhelming - I don't see what anyone short of god/cosmic level powers could do to defend against it.The Blackstaff doesn't give Eb more firepower, it helps him not go insane when he breaks the Laws of Magic. This is something Eb doesn't do lightly. Casaverde was a special case. They needed a response to Archangel and get rid of Ortega, even though it meant killing humans alongside. The White Council doesn't want to do that too often. They'd become complete hypocrites and maybe enrage other supernatural powers.
I dont think we should assume that Eb can bring Tunguska level's of Power/Energy to bear any time or place he wants. Any more than Harry can whistle up a Zombie T-Rex or reallocate miles of the earth's gravity any time or place; he was able to pull it off in one instance, but with several lucky things (Ley Lines mostly) all coming together to make it possible.
The Blackstaff doesn't give Eb more firepower,
This is something Eb doesn't do lightly. Casaverde was a special case. They needed a response to Archangel and get rid of Ortega, even though it meant killing humans alongside.
I dunno - it definitely keeps him from going crazy, but I'm not at all convinced that that's the only effect it has.I though there was something on this that mentions it's basically using it to do the magic in order to do the insulating. But I've yet to find that woj, been looking as this convo developed.
I though there was something on this that mentions it's basically using it to do the magic in order to do the insulating. But I've yet to find that woj, been looking as this convo developed.I dont recall one that sounds like that, but Id be fascinated (dont recall anything that actually addressed the mechanism of insulation).
I dont recall one that sounds like that, but Id be fascinated (dont recall anything that actually addressed the mechanism of insulation).Ya, i'm almost positive it's been addressed since then, somewhere. Iirc sometime around the KC signing. Need to remember to start putting Woj vids on for background when i'm bored. It's just not my first thought to alleviate it. But it usually does lol.
There is this one that indicates it doenst have any other discrete powers (at least none in eb's hands?) beyond the insulation properties:(click to show/hide)
How did Ebenezer's instant Death Spell in Changes work?
That had to do with Ebenezer's stick. That was all to do with the Blackstaff.
Any more to elaborate?
Well, there are a few who have speculated where the Blackstaff came from. That should explain it, for those who pieced it together.
Take a look at:Hmmm, if he's saying that the fan-theory for the blackstaff should explain it, I think that sends me straight back to it being the primary tool of Atropos: She who Ends Life. Prior to the appearance of Hades she was the closest thing to an incarnation of Death we'd seen, and even then the Fates were always above the Gods in most respects (at least in the sense that Fate itself was a Force even the Gods could not contradict).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gM-Phtpvm8s
At the 27 minute mark.
The fact that it's "Real Life" history is important makes it sound that the "Making Death" is a real part of its power (and has mythological precedent).
Hmmm, if he's saying that the fan-theory for the blackstaff should explain it, I think that sends me straight back to it being the primary tool of Atropos: She who Ends Life. Prior to the appearance of Hades she was the closest thing to an incarnation of Death we'd seen, and even then the Fates were always above the Gods in most respects (at least in the sense that Fate itself was a Force even the Gods could not contradict).
Well he also says in the same interview about a minute later that Mother Winter and Mother Summer aren't two of the Fates which is confusing. But he goes on to say he leaves clues in Skin Game as to who they are which is a reference to Hecate.He doesnt actually say that they /arent/ the fates, just that Skin Game elaborated on the way it all worked. The question specified that the asker thought that Mother Summer was a 2nd Fate in addition to Mother Winter being Atropos, and in a Separate WOJ he was asked something similar and the answer was more that they had the three-goddess part 90° off, which I took at the time to mean that both mothers are Atropos (which CD confirmed /is/ in the mix somehow), and that both Queens and Both Ladies share the other two of the Maiden/Mother/Crone triumverate. Skin Game showed that as many as 6 people can share one god's Name.
which I took at the time to mean that both mothers are Atropos (which CD confirmed /is/ in the mix somehow), and that both Queens and Both Ladies share the other two of the Maiden/Mother/Crone triumverate.
I doubt he can do it quickly, but he's done it at least 16 times (New Madrid, Krakatoa, Tunguska, Casaverde, "a dozen more at least") so he must know how to set it up, and the war with the Red Court lasted years.New Madrid was an earthquake, Krakatoa was a volcano and Casaverde was a satellite. I.e., each time he had to take advantage of already-present features. It's not something he can just whip up at will and aim wherever he wants, he apparently needs something to use in the environment.
I dunno - it definitely keeps him from going crazy, but I'm not at all convinced that that's the only effect it has.
True.
The attack they did in DB was even worse than the Archangel one, though - killing tons of Wardens in the hospital and coming very close to outright victory. That would seem to deserve an even larger response.
New Madrid was an earthquake, Krakatoa was a volcano and Casaverde was a satellite. I.e., each time he had to take advantage of already-present features. It's not something he can just whip up at will and aim wherever he wants, he apparently needs something to use in the environment.I agree 100%. That being said, the whole mystery of Tunguska was that it didnt have any obvious source, spawning all kinds of weird scientific theories for how that much energy could be released without a trace.
I agree 100%. That being said, the whole mystery of Tunguska was that it didnt have any obvious source, spawning all kinds of weird scientific theories for how that much energy could be released without a trace.Haven't they narrowed it down to some kind of meteorite strike by now?
Hmmm, if he's saying that the fan-theory for the blackstaff should explain it, I think that sends me straight back to it being the primary tool of Atropos: She who Ends Life. Prior to the appearance of Hades she was the closest thing to an incarnation of Death we'd seen, and even then the Fates were always above the Gods in most respects (at least in the sense that Fate itself was a Force even the Gods could not contradict).Perhaps, and I could be goofing my connections cause it's been interpreted a few ways, as Auranos's daughter her mythological precedent is it's HIS scythe used to cut off his ah, danglers. ANd it's in fact, the raven banner, Dagda's staff and other mythological items of similar power.
When Eb does his "Laying of the Cattle move" at the major battle near the end of Changes, is that a power of the blackstaff?
The Blackstaff is what keeps that kind of thing from driving him insane and turning him into a giggling villain. Yah you don't go messing with black magic in the Dresden Files, it's very very bad for you. At the same time, Magic is something that happens because you truly believe that when you set out to do it that you should be able to do that sort of thing. That says a few things about Eb that really Harry hasn't run into in any other forum other than right there. Yah Poor guy, He's got a tough job.
@4:30Quote from: jim butcherDoes the blackstaff have any powers that relate to the dead?All that says that the Blackstaff isn't the power but Eb is that the Blackstaffe just "insulates the user" from going crazy from black magic.
Other than making people dead? Really, that's kind of the point [Crowd Laughs] Really but the staff itself what it really does is it keeps Eb sane while he's doing insane things. Lucky him, he gets to deal with a hideously guilty conscious and nightmares later, but that's better than later being like *Muahahahahahahahaha* Which is sort of the other option if your going to go around using magic like that.
However there is this quote.Quotejim butcherThe Blackstaff is not sentient per se it’s just really, really, really powerful and tapped into like some serious elemental powers in the universe. But basically all it really is is insulation from using those powers.
Haven't they narrowed it down to some kind of meteorite strike by now?
Haven't they narrowed it down to some kind of meteorite strike by now?The current prevailing theory is that an ice meteor/comet hit the atmosphere and flash-boiled, causing an Air Burst (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_burst). However that is the current theory only because it;s the only explanation anyone has for a meteor-level explosion without a crater. There are some geologic explanations as well, for example; basically they say it was an exotic volcanic or nat. gas eruption rather than an exotic meteor.
The current prevailing theory is that an ice meteor/comet hit the atmosphere and flash-boiled, causing an Air Burst (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_burst). However that is the current theory only because it;s the only explanation anyone has for a meteor-level explosion without a crater. There are some geologic explanations as well, for example; basically they say it was an exotic volcanic or nat. gas eruption rather than an exotic meteor.So if any of those cases are true, it's once again a case of Ebenezer appropriating a handy aspect of the environment for the blast, rather than powering it entirely on his own.
So if any of those cases are true, it's once again a case of Ebenezer appropriating a handy aspect of the environment for the blast, rather than powering it entirely on his own.Yes. Though my main point was just that there isnt any sort of real understanding of what happened or which environmental aspect was invovled; all they really know is what /didnt/ do it. It wasnt a normal meteor, a normal earthquake/volcano/methane vent, etc.
Yes. Though my main point was just that there isnt any sort of real understanding of what happened or which environmental aspect was invovled; all they really know is what /didnt/ do it. It wasnt a normal meteor, a normal earthquake/volcano/methane vent, etc.Another possibility we haven't considered -- the blast may not have been something that Ebenezer made happen as an attack, but the result of him ganking a warlock in the middle of some huge spell they were preparing, and the gathered energy turning into fallout. Thinking of all the magic flying wildly around when Harry disrupted the Shadowman's spell and turn the knobs up.
It could have been an ectoplsma wave from a huge Way, any number of Ley-line supported spells, a giant ghost fly-swatter that bled over to effecting the physical world, a kaiju....
Another possibility we haven't considered -- the blast may not have been something that Ebenezer made happen as an attack, but the result of him ganking a warlock in the middle of some huge spell they were preparing, and the gathered energy turning into fallout. Thinking of all the magic flying wildly around when Harry disrupted the Shadowman's spell and turn the knobs up.Also true.
This ties into the Mavra thread post I just made but I thought there was woj or suggestion or theory that Ebenezar was taking out the thirteen Elders of the Black COurt who were doing a Dark Hollow. Which is why they were a threat to Mab. Theory is supported by local folklore and myth about something called 'the grey men' or 'the death men' or something in the region.First Ive heard of it, but that's interesting. There were some old letters between Eb and Simon in one of the recent RPG books that could have included something along those lines, might that be what you recall?
First Ive heard of it, but that's interesting. There were some old letters between Eb and Simon in one of the recent RPG books that could have included something along those lines, might that be what you recall?
Stoker's book is certainly mentioned in the letters but no direct mention of tunguska.Is there one that specifically speaks to Mab having that sort of actual motivation? I mean, there is WOJ that the Black Court Elders were a threat by virtue of being on the list of those that /could/ take her, but that's not to say she was actually pursuing that goal. Separately there is a WOJ that the Black Court were a threat to /Everyone/ because they'd grown in power so quickly or whatever and that everyone was gunning for them to one extent or another, but again it wasnt any more specific to Mab than to any other Interest. Is this an extension of those or is there something that specifically said Mab had it out for the Black Court?
WOJ is the Thirteen Elders were a threat to Mab.
But yeah iirc the theory was that the Purge was happening and the Thirteen Elders gathered at Tunguska (the region having several folklore about dangerous horror people called 'the grey men') to perform a Dark Hollow and ascend. It's also backed by the fact that thirteens the biggest number a group of people can perform a ritual.
Is there one that specifically speaks to Mab having that sort of actual motivation? I mean, there is WOJ that the Black Court Elders were a threat by virtue of being on the list of those that /could/ take her, but that's not to say she was actually pursuing that goal. Separately there is a WOJ that the Black Court were a threat to /Everyone/ because they'd grown in power so quickly or whatever and that everyone was gunning for them to one extent or another, but again it wasnt any more specific to Mab than to any other Interest. Is this an extension of those or is there something that specifically said Mab had it out for the Black Court?
I believe it might be this one. Though I think that there is a woj or that is the woj that says Black Court was a team up job between White Court and Mab. If not then that second WOJ is the reference point for it combined with them being on the list.The only ones Ive ever seen all say it was a pure White Court scheme. I think Mab just became the Measuring stick for Power, thanks to the "Who can Take Mab in a Fight" list.
The RPG also suggests it significantly with Mab taking an increased interest in Russia immediately after the Purge as if she expected it to happen. Very organised response and analogues of Rasputin's becoming Winter Knight to Harry getting shot and drowning the lake. Often the demise of the court is mentioned in the same breath as Mabs response.Is that the Paranet Papers as well?
Note also that by the time the Russian Revolution happened, Dracula had been published for roughly two decades.True Pietrovich's letters mention it as early as 1902 where he talks about publishing it further, with a previous mention of him instructing the Orthodox Church in eliminating Black Court Vamps.
Dracula - 1897
Tunguska - 1908
Russian Revolution - 1917