• Mab could NOT have sent the fetches to kill people at the con. She is not allowed to do this due to the rules of Fey Queens. Either someone else gave the command or the Fetches were killing on their own.
• The fetch knew enough about Molly to trick her into inviting them into the house (not a high threshold, but not complete ignorance)
• Thorned Namshiel was involved in the attack on Arctus Tor
A couple things stand out for me here.I like the idea. It would fit, cause he has the foreknowledge but can't really act directly.
1. The idea that a lot of foreknowledge was required to set all of this up.
2. The Fetches being somehow able to power through the Threshhold of Michael's house - especially given the Angelic protection that we are shown that exists around the house.
3. The long-term effects of this sequence: Harry's awareness of Nemesis, the sudden sowing of doubt among the Denarians, the beginning of the "Molly for Winter Lady" chain of events.
These things sort of say to me: Uriel. He could easily be using these event to maneuver Harry into position, to set up for him a powerful ally (Molly) where before he had an enemy (Maeve), plus he gets to knock the Denarians off kilter by having them turn on one another in suspicion. We know that Uriel likes to plan for the long term and also likes to see how many dominos he can set up to all fall down at the same time.
Which queen gave orders to the Fetches – or was the Fetch acting on their own?1 The Winter Mother did it, Eldest fatch says so 'I have served the queen of air and darkness since before human memory.' but before human memory puts things in the realm of oblivion. Only 2 ways to do that is if original was still around in another form, or died. Either way he's talking about the queen possibly before it was ever part mortal.
• If Madrigal was set up a year in advance, why. I cannot have been related to Molly’s use of black magic or the battle with the Red Court as neither could have been reliably predicted a year in advance. If he was set up from the begining, it had to be for another reason.
• Was the portal to winter always in the theater --- or did someone create the portal for this purpose? The first might suggest a longer term plot while the second might suggest it was created by a Winter queen.
• Why did Mab not destroy those who killed her guards?
• Did slowing time in Winter serve some other (less obvious) purpose?
• When did Maeve and Lilly learn about the attack on the White Council? Well in advance or only during the events in Proven Guilty?
• What else is going on that might justify time travel?
A fetch is a supernatural double or an apparition of a living person in Irish folklore. It is largely akin to the doppelgänger, and sightings are regarded as omens, usually for impending death.They came for Molly and what she'd been doing with magic, they came to balance the scales with Mab's free willed knight in the bullpin.
evidently referring to a psychopomp who "fetches" the souls of the dying,
found in two Old English glossaries.[4][5] In both texts, fæcce is glossed for mære, a spirit associated with death and nightmares.
seems to have regarded it as a Latin word, though it is unattested in Latin. Instead, it may be Irish, which could be the origin of the Hiberno-English fetch.[4]
The term "fetch" is sometimes glossed for the Scandinavian fylgja, an animal alter ego in Norse mythology connected to a person's fate, though unlike the Irish concept, the fylgja is almost always female.
I support Evil Bob as the one who fixed Little Chicago. I suspect he is able to pass Harry's threshold, and can counter Harry's wards.
These things sort of say to me: Uriel. He could easily be using these event to maneuver Harry into position, to set up for him a powerful ally (Molly) where before he had an enemy (Maeve), plus he gets to knock the Denarians off kilter by having them turn on one another in suspicion. We know that Uriel likes to plan for the long term and also likes to see how many dominos he can set up to all fall down at the same time.
The idea that a lot of foreknowledge was required to set all of this up.
Molly was probably set up by Sandra Marling, who organized the con and met her at a shelter where she had to do community work. Sandra suggested to Molly that fear can cure drug addiction. There is room for a long-term plan here.
Mab couldn't order Molly being killed, so she had to do something else in order to remove the potential danger a warlock daughter of a Fist of God would pose if she got recruited by the opposition. Hence the abduction. When Harry showed up to rescue Molly, Mab could be reasonably sure that he would take steps to turn Molly into an asset. Win-win.
I personally found PG a lot less confusing once I started to think about Mab's role differently. Harry is assuming she is a puppet-master who always knows exactly how things are going to play out in her favor. If you think of her as being in a corner instead and not knowing everything, her play makes more sense. She had to find out what was going on and who was moving against her.
The long-term effects of this sequence: Harry's awareness of Nemesis, the sudden sowing of doubt among the Denarians, the beginning of the "Molly for Winter Lady" chain of events
I support Evil Bob as the one who fixed Little Chicago. I suspect he is able to pass Harry's threshold, and can counter Harry's wards.
The Winter Mother did it, Eldest fetch says so 'I have served the queen of air and darkness since before human memory.' but before human memory puts things in the realm of oblivion. Only 2 ways to do that is if original was still around in another form, or died. Either way he's talking about the queen possibly before it was ever part mortal.
Not that it argues against Namshiel's presence (nothing says only one attacker used Hellfire), but I would note that Rosanna's absence from SG was also quite conspicuous. Also keep in mind Nic's comment in SmF about being sure one of the two women was "our own Judas". Personally, my theory is Tessa is the ringleader for 1-3 traitor Denarians, but she's succeeded for the time being in framing Rosanna as far as Nic is concerned.
The ideas above are possible (of course), but someone will have to explain what agenda people had here. What agenda did Winter Queens have with Molly? With the Con? With Sending the Fetch into the mortal world. Of course you can argue that Molly will be very important 5 years later and thus Molly’s involvement makes everything make sense (sorta not really), but Molly ascension to the Winter Lady is clearly a low probability outcome – and the future is probabilities. It seems a lot of effort to for very low odds of having a maybe sorta kinda vague impact on a new winter lady. Molly is related to one of the Knights of the Cross, but that is not Mab's concern even if Mab even knew about this. And Mab would not help Uriel by killing a bunch of mortals in any case. So again -- the actions of the Fetch do not make sense given what we know -- and foreknowledge or a plot against Molly (same diff) is a claim that does not seem very strong.I think that Mab didn't know what was going on. Her mission was finding out and reacting. A long con with her all knowing and planning doesn't make sense at all. Which you pointed out in your original post.
As to who fixed Little Chicago: I think it was the Gatekeeper. It would make sense for him to check on Harry, making sure he wasn't in on it either. He didn't fully trust Harry. His decision to send him the note might have been a test. If he observed him, he could have checked his apartment and lab for signs of suspicious activities. Little Chicago would have been interesting to him from a purely nerdy pov and he might have decided to not let Harry die from a stupid accident before he found out what was up with the young man.
Molly was most likely the target of the so-called Black Council. Sandra Marling met her long before PG. She could have recognized her potential as a wizard and that her family connection placed her very well to act against the Knights of the Cross. The Knights are a target the BC acts against, it wasn't a complete coincidence that Michael was there in Grave Peril. Imagine Molly as an undiscovered warlock with her psychomancy fully developed on the side of the BC (Nemfected, maybe with a Coin). There lies the apocalypse.
Mab and the Gatekeeper work more closely together than we knew at the time. I think they had the same information and maybe even decided together to share it with Harry, thus getting him on the playing field. The BC was up to something at that con in Chicago and it involved Black Magic. Nothing specific. Mab didn't know it was Molly at first or she could have done something more directly. Or get the GK to act, he is WC after all. Neither did she have plans to recruit her as a possible Winter Lady at that time. She didn't even know then that she would need one. And dragging her to Arctis Tor might have get her killed or her sanity ripped off her. Mab's first order of business was removing the prize from the hands of the BC, once she determined it was her (or Harry determined for her, he was the one who sent the Fetches right to the source of the black magic). Turning her into an asset instead in the long term by letting Harry take care of her: cherry on the top.
As to who fixed Little Chicago: I think it was the Gatekeeper. It would make sense for him to check on Harry, making sure he wasn't in on it either. He didn't fully trust Harry. His decision to send him the note might have been a test. If he observed him, he could have checked his apartment and lab for signs of suspicious activities. Little Chicago would have been interesting to him from a purely nerdy pov and he might have decided to not let Harry die from a stupid accident before he found out what was up with the young man.
So the gatekeeper created the situation by hinting to Mab she investigate -- and Mab's investigation had the side effect of creating the situation. Maybe. But then you have all these high level players getting involved into something that is only important because all these high level players get involved. It is a somewhat circular argument.Na, neither of them created the situation. The situation was created by the BC. They reacted to it. That's something else entirely.
I have to say that I'm still unconvinced that Thorned Namsial is the one who was throwing around hell-fire at AT.Very unconvinced here too.
I get it now. You see the attack on Arctus Tor preceding the arrival of the fetch. Mab sent the fetch to investigate afterwards and the events in the con are just collateral damage. Could be.
Lets diagram the events to see if this makes sense
* Mab makes it a point of arranging beacons on the mortal world for when she needs to send her spies to that world.
* Sandra Marling is one of those agents - which is why she organizes horror cons. Sandra arranged for "darby" to be there just in case she needs a spike in fear, but she realizes Molly is a mage and can perform this function as well. So she gives Molly the idea to use fear when she gets the word a strong beacon is needed.
* Then when Arctus Tor is attacked (perhaps to make sure Winter does not interfere in the planned attack on the white council, Mab uses this contingency and sends her fetches through to find out information.
* Fetches feed by their nature -- an unavoidable consequence of sending powerful fetches into a horror con. Mab obviously did not prohibit this behavior -- and not clear she could (under winter law) force a creature act outside its nature with strong cause
* Fetches realize this path is going to be plugged and take Molly back home with them as a psychic snack.
* Maybe a little nudge here or there from Uriel or gatekeeper to make sure Molly is involved and taken to Arctus Tor.
Is this correct?
If yes, questions
* Why did Mab not destroy the attackers. She is VERY powerful and could certainly call in as many winter allies as needed. No way a few Denarians and wizards could challenge her at Arctus Tor and survive.
* Why wait days without a response at Arctus Tor while the events proceeded at Earth. Yes she is collecting info, but why not summon new/stronger guards
* Why the erratic behavior of Mab overall in this space. Not her anger - her behavior that looks like madness
It's getting a little dated now (over 6 years old, and before we ever heard about Nemesis), but worth a read:Oldies but goodies, in other words classics. :)
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,26853.0.html
Elegast wrote an update post-Nemesis here:
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,35451.0.html
Mab didn't wait to get Molly out of their reach. She did it as soon as she found out.What the fetches? they were always there to fetch her for a queen of winter.
What the fetches? they were always there to fetch her for a queen of winter.
*rereading, I realized that was your intent. Good point on Glau though.
Jonas - I don't think so. I don't know that Mab knew yet what Molly's purpose was going to be, let alone a queen. But we do know that Mab eventually thought that Molly would be a better fit in Summer.Depends on why you think she ended up in AT really? But if Lea is dropping cluebats all over the place about wanting Molly, one thinks her boss might know why if nothing else. Purely from that, Mab wanted potential candidates for both summer and winter to be groomed. She just assumed wrongly. And i'd point out as she 'thought' her daughter would be best suited to replace her other daughter,probably came from a more personal and emotional reaction than logical reasoning. The Molly starborn theory would explain any interest directly but,
Jonas,Entirely possible, if you mean PG, not DB ;)
Are you saying that when Molly was take to AT in DB, she was forced into playing the part of a queen? Like a foreshadowing of her taking on the Lady's reigns?
Likely he knows already. Knew already. Maybe even pointed you in a direction that would show you more. Assuming he wasn't simply using you to poke a hornet's nest and see what flew up.
I have to say that I'm still unconvinced that Thorned Namsial is the one who was throwing around hell-fire at AT.Mab seemed convinced.
Mab seemed convinced.Not by my reckoning, when she get's pissed at Harry right before she leaves it always implied something hugely different.
Not by my reckoning, when she get's pissed at Harry right before she leaves it always implied something hugely different.Doesn't prove anything of course. But inference from Dresden's perspective as to the culprit is just as untenable evidence.(click to show/hide)
“Why?”I demanded. “Why did you want the Denarians
stopped? Why send the hobs to kill the Archive? Why recruit me
to save the Archive and Marcone in the event that the hobs
failed?”
Mab paused, turned, casually showing off the gorgeous curves
of her calves, and tilted her head at me. “Nicodemus and his ilk
were clearly in violation of my Accords, and obviously planning
to abuse them to further his ambition. That was reason enough
to see his designs disrupted. And among the Fallen was one
with much to answer for to me, personally, for its attack upon
my home.”
“The Black Council attack on Arctis Tor,” I said. “One of them
used Hellfire.”
Mab showed me her snow-white teeth. “The Watchman and I,”
Grimalkin mewled for her, “had a common enemy this day. The
enemy could not be allowed to gain the power represented by
the child Archive.”
I frowned and thought of the silver hand that had batted the
fallen angel and his master sorceries around as if he’d been a
stuffed practice dummy. “Thorned Namshiel.”
Mab’s eyes flashed with sudden, cold fury and frost literally
formed over every surface of the chapel, including upon my
own eyelashes.
“There are others yet who will pay for what they
have done,” Mab snarled in her own voice. It sounded hideous—
not unmelodious, because it was as rich and full and musical
as it ever had been. But it was filled with such rage, such fury,
such pain and such hate that every vowel clawed at my skin,
and every consonant felt like someone taking a staple gun to
my ears.
“I am Sidhe,”she hissed. “I am the Queen of Air and Darkness.
I am Mab.” Her chin lifted, her eyes wide and white around the
rippling colors of her irises—utterly insane. “And I repay my
debts, mortal. All of them.”
Her reaction, to me, reads as confirmation that Harry's guess was correct. Why else would the name of the Fallen cause her rage to ignite?Erroneous answer? The next part is Harry realizing he had offered the very same retribution by going there. The only clue we have as to the purpose of the AT attack comes from nic muttering about a 'survival instinct' to which I assume he meant N and it wanting out of it's entrapment with Lea... Mmm so, are the things that Mab has frozen over actually all fragments of N kept under ice?
Erroneous answer? The next part is Harry realizing he had offered the very same retribution by going there. The only clue we have as to the purpose of the AT attack comes from nic muttering about a 'survival instinct' to which I assume he meant N and it wanting out of it's entrapment with Lea... Mmm so, are the things that Mab has frozen over actually all fragments of N kept under ice?I think there's a good chance Mab has Namshiel's coin on ice now.
Anyway, it's more an idea of what reaction did attacking AT evoke from a timeline perspective coupled with the fact she moves from a convo to indirect topic of "others yet to pay". Granted... she Sidhe, so indirect is her bag, but it went from Harry's singular to Mab's plural pretty fast. She said more in that distinction than otherwise would have been said replying directly to Harry's assertion on a singular individual/duo. Which I don' count the now dead Host as in need of repayment. Harry cleared that debt presumably acting in her name :)
I think there's a good chance Mab has Namshiel's coin on ice now.I'm hoping she's not that stupid. What happens when an immortal whom isn't supposed to violate free will entraps a being whos job it is is to actively manipulate said free will? idk man, but Him and especially Lasciel Make me think if they can't be heard one way their allowed to let their presence be felt in another. We keep getting from the various sources how the fallen in the coins are supposed to be out and influencing (always manage to find that church patsy to recirculate them, unless it's always been the same guy...). What happens when that perfect balance of 30 vs 3 is disturbed? Rebalance. Hell.. i'm not so sure that's not why Fearbringer found a bit of a foothold.
Of course, now that Molly has developed these powers, it's just perfect that Harry is there to take her on as an apprentice. And, she has definitely attracted the notice of Mab.
Facts
• Lilly and Maeve conspired to lure winter into leaving their borders to allow summer to attack the Red Court
• Maeve slowed time in Winter so that winter armies would not threaten Summer for sufficient time -- such that Summer could attack the Red Court
• The Red Court did a major attack on the White Council during the events in Proven Guilty – including targeting Luccio’s boot camp (ie – really important battle)
I think there's a good chance Mab has Namshiel's coin on ice now....Dammit Mab. She's been known to do that for the right reasons despite potential consequences, when she hung Slate up to cool off.QuoteI'm hoping she's not that stupid.
...Dammit Mab. She's been known to do that for the right reasons despite potential consequences, when she hung Slate up to cool off.
If Mab has the coin my guess is that she can't hold it forever. It would be like a football team deciding to play in a basketball league or put it this way, Mab is out of her jurisdiction if she thinks she can hold the coin forever. She has a score to settle with Thorned Namshiel and any other Denarians who worked with him to attack Arctis Tor, but I'd bet she's limited in what she can extract as retribution.She will keep the coin longer and safer than the church would have done.
I have a running theory that "Mirror Mirror" is going to be a return to the events of Proven Guilty, where mirror Harry and normal Harry are manipulating things behind the scenes to keep or change the timeline.MM is gonna be a cross between