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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Thatguywhocomesaround on July 19, 2017, 09:35:17 PM
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Tavi and Nicodemus sqaure up against one another in a composite universe. (As in DF - Alera crossover world or something).
Nicodemus has knowledge of Tavi's past and is aware of his extreme intellect. So assume Nicodemus is taking precautions. Tavi, in turn, is aware of the temptation Nicodemus can offer and his fearsome reputation. Obviously, assume both men have knowledge of magic, furies, modern world, Alera world, and all.
Both have equal knowledge of this fusion setting.
Both may gain more knowledge of each other within their three combat encounters in the same way Harry and Nic have.
Tavi HAS Fury Crafting
R1
Tavi replaces Harry in Death Masks.
Can he outwit a Nicodemus, survive and foil his plan?
R2
Tavi replaces Harry in Small Favor
Can he outwit Nicodemus, survive and foil his plan?
R3
Tavi replaces Harry in Skin Game
Can he manage to get into the vault, stay true to Mab's word, outwit Nicodemus and survive?
NOTE - Assume in all three rounds that Tavi has the same help and friends Harry did and Nicodemus has the same resources in Death Masks, Small Favor, and Skin Gam respectively.
R4
Neither men have any knowledge of each other, both get one week prep to learn what they can and then play in Chess. Who wins?
Note- Assume Tavi knows the game of Chess of course
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Tavi has no Fury Crafting
In other words, can a vanilla mortal that happens to be moderately intelligent defeat a 2,000 year old immortal that's immune to physical damage, has the knowledge of a fallen angel, has the power to manipulate shadows, has at least a dozen mortal servants and a few demonic creatures, and has anywhere from three to a dozen fellow fallen angels working with him in any given book?
>:(
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In other words, can a vanilla mortal that happens to be moderately intelligent defeat a 2,000 year old immortal that's immune to physical damage, has the knowledge of a fallen angel, has the power to manipulate shadows, has at least a dozen mortal servants and a few demonic creatures, and has anywhere from three to a dozen fellow fallen angels working with him in any given book?
>:(
Recall, Tavi has Harry's resources. Knights of the Cross, Murphy, Thomas, Kincaid, and may move them and use them to his advantage as he wants. I can turn on Fury Crafting but I figured Tavi would sweep with that. What do you think?
Also, Tavi is quite a bit above moderate intellect. I do believe you aren't giving him enough credit in that area.
Also, there is more to defeating someone than killing them. This is not a straight up meet in a ring fight as other battles are I've done. I mean that works but there are other ways. Marcone managed to use his intellect (with help of course) against Nicodemus and survived a physical encounter with him. Harry has also used his intelligence to outgambit Nicodemus.
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Recall, Tavi has Harry's resources. Knights of the Cross, Murphy, Thomas, Kincaid, and may move them and use them to his advantage as he wants. I can turn on Fury Crafting but I figured Tavi would sweep with that. What do you think?
Also, Tavi is quite a bit above moderate intellect. I do believe you aren't giving him enough credit in that area.
Also, there is more to defeating someone than killing them. This is not a straight up meet in a ring fight as other battles are I've done. I mean that works but there are other ways. Marcone managed to use his intellect (with help of course) against Nicodemus and survived a physical encounter with him. Harry has also used his intelligence to outgambit Nicodemus.
Without Furycrafting, Tavi wouldn't stand a chance in a single fight.
Furycrafting would more or less even the playing field. But it wouldn't be a guaranteed win for him.
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Without Furycrafting, Tavi wouldn't stand a chance in a single fight.
Furycrafting would more or less even the playing field. But it wouldn't be a guaranteed win for him.
An average Citizens Furycrafting maybe. Tavi's Furycrafting on the other hand takes it from a stomp for Nick to a stomp for Tavi.
Seriously, End-of-Series Tavi was OP.
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An average Citizens Furycrafting maybe. Tavi's Furycrafting on the other hand takes it from a stomp for Nick to a stomp for Tavi.
Seriously, End-of-Series Tavi was OP.
Unless I'm completely misremembering, Tavi had a lot of power, and very little finesse, other than his flight. He could blow things apart, but that's not what a hero would do in the scenarios Harry found himself in when fighting the Denarians.
There are Innocents present in almost every fight. There's no mention of having Kitai present to help keep him calm and in control, and I was under the impression that she was the one with finesse.
Short of the Island fight, there's not all that much space for Tavi to cut loose. And even then, Demonreach might show up to fight Tavi, if he thinks he's attacking the Well.
I think the circumstances, and Nico's foreknowledge of Tavi's capabilities, are enough to level the playing field.
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What s great match up.
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Alright, Furycrafting added.
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I don't think we saw Tavi be delicate because his dramatic situations didn't require it. But he used veils easily, and Amara singled those out as delicate. He did the weathercrafting along the Wall so circumspect that people didn't realize it was furycrafting.
But I think furycrafting's combat strength is in evocation and in a fast moving fight, Tavi is both better trained and more suited than Dresden.
I'd need to reread the books, but Tavi in SG murders Nico in the underworld.
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I don't think we saw Tavi be delicate because his dramatic situations didn't require it. But he used veils easily, and Amara singled those out as delicate. He did the weathercrafting along the Wall so circumspect that people didn't realize it was furycrafting.
But I think furycrafting's combat strength is in evocation and in a fast moving fight, Tavi is both better trained and more suited than Dresden.
I'd need to reread the books, but Tavi in SG murders Nico in the underworld.
I thought there was a time he needed to knock down a fort entrance, and knocked down it and all the stonework around it.
That's how I'm remembering him. Eb's power with Harry's conscience. Tavi could blow Chitchen Itza apart, but he'd worry about hitting the blood slaves stored in cages at the base.
As for the fight in Hades, I suppose it depends on what Fury powers were available. Water, wind, and wood would be scarce to draw from. Fire was present, but only for illumination. Metal was present, but mostly as coins and such. But there'd be an abundance of earth.
Short of crushing Nico, it'd be a tough fight. Especially considering Nico's got tricks with his shadow that can keep him off the ground.
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Sorry people. I ask forgiveness for the intrusion but I'll drop this here because there are people who never visits the "story of us" section. And it's for a real good cause. Please spread the word and forgive me the intrusion, I'll delete this post if someone complains-
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,49919.msg2284038.html#new
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In other words, can a vanilla mortal that happens to be moderately intelligent defeat a 2,000 year old immortal that's immune to physical damage, has the knowledge of a fallen angel, has the power to manipulate shadows, has at least a dozen mortal servants and a few demonic creatures, and has anywhere from three to a dozen fellow fallen angels working with him in any given book?
>:(
Maybe the poster changed the post but I don't see anything about Tavi not having Fury crafting. He specifically says he HAS Fury crafting.
If Tavi has Fury crafting he absolutely destroys Nicodemus. I haven't seen anything from Nicodemus to indicate he would last more than a few moments against Tavi. Super human strength from his earth fury, super human speed with a sword or any metal, fire, water manipulation, healing, flight, wind manipulation, wood manipulation. He has a lot of tools and he doesn't require a blasting rod or any focus objects.
Unless I'm completely misremembering, Tavi had a lot of power, and very little finesse
By the end of the book he was very much in control of his abilities.
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WELP THIS ONE WAS A BUST!
I liked the chess match, though
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I'd put my money on Tavi in every respect when he compares to Harry.
So it's actually a no-brainer imo. Harry managed to win all three encounters. Tavi is going to destroy the evil b*.
The chess game should be interesting, though. But I think Tavi might win that one too.
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Which Tavi are we talking about? At the end of the series or say during PF?
The reason I'm asking is that in PF, Tavi has Alera at his elbow. With Alera he could do a whole lot more than just fury crafting.
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If Tavi has Fury crafting he absolutely destroys Nicodemus. I haven't seen anything from Nicodemus to indicate he would last more than a few moments against Tavi. Super human strength from his earth fury, super human speed with a sword or any metal, fire, water manipulation, healing, flight, wind manipulation, wood manipulation. He has a lot of tools and he doesn't require a blasting rod or any focus objects.
By the end of the book he was very much in control of his abilities.
I thought the elements had to be present for him to tap their potential? Other than Demonreach, he's not going to have an abundance of all the Fury types at any given time.
I guess I need a refresher on Alera, because I'm having a hard time picturing him tapping an abundance of nature Fury potential in downtown Chicago. Medieval cities in Alera were weaker when it came to Furies; imagine what a modern city would do.
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I thought the elements had to be present for him to tap their potential? Other than Demonreach, he's not going to have an abundance of all the Fury types at any given time.
I guess I need a refresher on Alera, because I'm having a hard time picturing him tapping an abundance of nature Fury potential in downtown Chicago. Medieval cities in Alera were weaker when it came to Furies; imagine what a modern city would do.
That's the problem with cross story fights. He "should" have access to them on DR as they seem to stay with him even if he travels to another continent in the Alera series. I don't recall furies being weaker in Alera. If he for example lost contact with the earth, he'd be cut off from his Earth fury. But asphalt, concrete ect are products of the earth so I don't know if he'd lose that power. :shrug:
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That's the problem with cross story fights. He "should" have access to them on DR as they seem to stay with him even if he travels to another continent in the Alera series. I don't recall furies being weaker in Alera. If he for example lost contact with the earth, he'd be cut off from his Earth fury. But asphalt, concrete ect are products of the earth so I don't know if he'd lose that power. :shrug:
See, I thought he was tapping the latent power of Furies in the environment around him.
The weakness around the cities was shown in that City dwellers had weaker (and fewer) Furies than rural dwellers. The suggestion, at least to me, was that as humanity moved away from the natural environment, their connection with the Furies weakened as well. But since the Furies themselves were described as weaker, I think it suggests that cities aren't the ideal environment for them.
Which would suggest that any similar presence in modern cities in the Dresdenverse would be similarly dampened.
In the alley/hotel/hades fights, there'd probably be enough stone and metal for him, but wind/fire/water would be scarce.
The train fight would be interesting, as he'd have metal and wind.
The Shedd fight would be the best source for a water fight.
Of course, with Nico knowing about Tavi, he'd probably know that his power was suppressed in his youth. I wouldn't put it past Nico to find a way to duplicate the effect under the right conditions, using Cassius for any spells necessary.
And picturing Tavi fighting all the Denarians is intriguing.
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See, I always thought that the furies in the city were simply the same furies that were local to the area before the humans, but they'd been used so much, and for so long that they were beyond just tame, they were completely broken and had no will of their own any longer.
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See, I always thought that the furies in the city were simply the same furies that were local to the area before the humans, but they'd been used so much, and for so long that they were beyond just tame, they were completely broken and had no will of their own any longer.
I can't recall what the books suggested. I thought there was a Bernard conversation where a couple people speculated, but didn't come to a conclusion.
Now, if I recall, it's hard for a crafter to simultaneously use conflicting furies. Did Tavi ever get over that, or does that still apply?
In other words, wood/metal, fire/water, air/earth combos don't work. That would affect what abilities he'd have in different scenarios.
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I can't recall what the books suggested. I thought there was a Bernard conversation where a couple people speculated, but didn't come to a conclusion.
Now, if I recall, it's hard for a crafter to simultaneously use conflicting furies. Did Tavi ever get over that, or does that still apply?
In other words, wood/metal, fire/water, air/earth combos don't work. That would affect what abilities he'd have in different scenarios.
There was a good conversation in Academ's Fury between Max and Tavi about whether or not human perception of furies made them different. The difference between nature-area furies and city ones is that in the wild areas, people were able to manifest discrete furies, like Bernard does frequently with Brutus. That's the real handicap Tavi has; he never had anything discrete, and had to do everything himself. In terms of lack of "finesse," it was described that Tavi had great strength, but wasn't able to do as many things at once as Kitai, who wasn't able to do things as strongly as he.
Being "cut off" from the source isn't enough to cancel out the abilities furies give a furycrafter; they have to be specifically countered. For example, to prevent Amara from escaping in the opening chapters of Furies of Calderon, she's buried up to her neck in the earth. The earth prevents her from summoning Cirrus—without being able to summon him, she can't fly. But if she was surrounded by fire, for example, she can still summon him.
In short, you're right about conflicting furies; there's no getting past that. But, because Tavi has access to all of them, he'd have to be collared to lock him down completely.
That is something I can see Nic arranging. He did, after all, have access to thorn manacles to hold Harry, so I'm sure he'd be able to whip up some similar effect.
That said, Tavi takes Badass Normal to new levels. He was the only muggle in a world of superhumans, and managed to fight Canim without the use of his furies at all, and still win, not to mention the various fights against strong furycrafters that he won with skill alone.
If he's got furycrafting, I don't see any of the three main encounters going in Nic's favor. His sword would be shattered in the opening exchanges, and that's if Tavi didn't decide to simply char him to a crisp from a distance. Even when he inevitably took to the air to escape, Tavi would be able to chase him down.
If Nic managed to capture him first, as he did Harry in Death Masks, I can absolutely see him collaring him, though, rather than keep him under running water, which would likely render all other conflicts moot.
In short, in a one-on-one fight, Tavi wins; if Nic gets the drop on him (unlikely—remember what watercrafting does for his situational awareness, and he'd sense the metal from his sword), Nic can collar him and kill him. I don't think he'd even bother trying to recruit him, either; he'd be too dangerous to keep around, unlike a poverty-stricken wizard with a host of complexes.
In chess, I give Nic the edge. Ludus is a wargame, not chess, and I think Tavi would be disappointed at the lack of a skyboard. 3D chess, on the other hand...