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McAnally's (The Community Pub) => Author Craft => Topic started by: weever on July 13, 2006, 02:13:23 AM
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I've recently taken a writing class where the instructor swore by writing an outline before writing a story. I've also heard authors say that their book would never have been written if they tried to do an outline first.
Now I'm trapped in this limbo between wanting to write free and plan the hell out of it. What works? Is there a happy medium, or is it one of those "whatever works for you" things? ???
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Hmmm...
I write an outline. Then I start writing. Then when I have an idea that takes me off of the outline, I re-outline to fit the new plan. Lather. rinse. repeat.
Could explain why I'm stuck about 10 chapters in ;)
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My first book I didn't bother with an outline. It got finished eventually, but I ran into a GSM problem and couldn't quite figure out how to end it either. My second book had an outline and I finished it much more quickly and directly. I also didn't keep to the outline, but I thought the outline helped direct my writing much better. My latest book also had an outline that I didn't strictly follow. Not quite done that one, but the outline helped again. My opinion: the outline can't hurt, and you can certainly ignore it when it gets in the way. ;)
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I don't use outlines, because I'm a short story author.
I'm working on two novels, but I'm just not an outline type...I have one in my head, I make notes so I don't forget where I want to go, but it's definately not an outline.
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I don't generally use an outline. I have tried it in the past and never made it past the outline phase. What works for me is to keep notes about everything, especially key scenes. I have a list of key scenes and write toward them. If a scene doesn't work becasue the plot has shifted, then I either adapt or abandon the scene. It's not perfect, but it works for me.
-paul
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I can't outline, either. For some reason, once I've written the outline I feel like I've told the story and the urge to write it goes away. ;D However, I do keep notes. I have those little-bitty flip notebooks with a pen stuck through the spiral bit. Since most of my ideas for scenes or dialogue snippets come to me in the car, I can grab it and jot down enough to jog my memory later.
I do wait for red lights. Fear not. ;)
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I don't do a detailed outline, but I try to at least have a bullet list of important events, in the order in which they'll appear in the story. It helps keep me on track. I'm always open to a better idea if it comes along, but having a list of bullet points helps me focus on whether the new thought really is a better idea and, if so, why.
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I outline. I make notes. I write about each character to get to know them, where they came from what made them the person they are. I write synopsizes for each chapter so I know what important event is happening in each.
I tried "writing by the seat of my pants." Doesn't work for me. I write myself into corners. But that's me!
I know lots of writers who don't outline. Lots of writers who outline, but not as extensively as me. I know authors who use note cards, other’s who use white boards. I know a bunch who use sticky notes. I know about as many different ways to approach writing a story as I do different authors. Everyone's different. There's no "right" way.
My advice...stop sweatin' the small stuff and start writing. You'll figure it out, grasshopper.
~Paige
~Here endth the lesson~ ::snicker::
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okay, it has nothing to do with fiction writing, but i figure that in this aspect writing essays might have something in common. Personally, I don't use outlines for writing. Doesn't work for me. However, what I will do is do a sort of brainstorm outline.....basically, a list of all the points/ideas I want to hit. And I go from there... I don't hit all of them in my writing, I use it to get things flowing and keep track of the things i wanted to hit. But if it goes off in a new direction, that's ok. But I still have a list to look at for inspiration when stuck.
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I write in...stages, I guess.
First I get the idea. If the idea is really big, it may be spun off as the basis of its own "world". If it's a smaller idea, I see if I can fit it into one of my existing worlds, to enrich that world. Then, in general, I daydream, and mull, and think about this idea and other things that are related to the idea.
This idea brew will sit in my head for a long time, often years, fermenting like a fine beer or wine. (At least I'd like to think the outcome will be like fine beer or wine and not vinegar! :D )
Then, suddenly, after a long time of thought-brewing a scene full-blown will spring into my head, and I'll write it down. At this point in time, I might write a few notes down as well, on characters, places, things, etc. to cement my ideas a little (before this my ideas are very fluid and shifting), but no outlines yet.
I'll keep kneading ideas and jotting these notes down for a long time, literally years, then suddenly things that were seperate will start to knit together, to gel and gather into something more solid, and I'll start the opening of the story.
I'll write a few thousand words, exploring the story's "physical" form (which is often different from the shape of it in my head)...characters, places, etc. I'll do this until I reach the end of what I know of the story, and start hitting the shapeless stuff I've not thought about yet.
ONLY THEN will I start outlining, and it will be very sketchy. I start to lay down "plot notes" here and there in files, and I work with that to define and bridge the shapeless parts.
However, I never do "set in stone" outlines; they're always more guidelines than anything, and "drawing outside the lines" isn't a bad thing.
So I outline just a bit when its really needed, and I make various notes all over the place about specific characters, places, magics, and things just so I can pick up my thoughts later and have them make sense (I learned quickly that cryptic notes didn't help me remember the awsome thing I was thinking about before!), but I don't do any outlining or note-taking purposefully or vigorously.
I like to think I write in a way that's similar to growing those bonsai trees; I tie certain parts down so they can't grow wild in weird ways, but I let other parts grow as they will so you have a natural looking but artfully shaped tree once the growing is all said and done.
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I rebel against outlining. I have since the sixth grade. I always hated it when teachers wanted an outline for every freaking assignment/essay. So, when I started writing when I was fourteen, no outlines for me. It's been that way ever since. I'm no stellar author, but I think, for me, a story works better based off of one idea...then I hop from idea to idea, writing notes and bits and bobs of things in a notebook when they strike me. Which is ususally right when I'm getting ready to go to bed. So I don't sleep. ;D I'm also a big fan of sitting down and just writing...anything that comes to mind in any kind of relation to the story, when I'm stuck/blocked. Some of my better ideas have come out of that "free writing", and whatever isn't of any use, I usually hold onto for a bit and then discard it. Outlining, for me, is uber-pressure, as if I'm supposed to come up with something to put down. I work well under pressure, but not the uber pressure.
Of course, that pressure is all in my head, and I've several people tell me I need my head checked....:)
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Try working with an outline-if it works for you great, if not, at least you'll know. Getting it down on paper or computer screen is the important thing. Whatever tool that helps get that done you'll have to be the final judge of. I do a combination of notes, vague outline and seeing where the story takes me. Then again, I'm still working on a couple stories so take what I'm saying with a grain of salt. ;) Shelley
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My outlines end up being pointless
I write them out, then forget about them and continue on writing
When I run into a problem I just abandon the story and take a couple of days off and wait for an idea.
SOmetimes it comes sometimes I just press the delete button and start again.
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I admire people who outline extensively. One of my critique partners used the snowflake method before NaNo last year, and she said it helped her immensely. She also admits that most of what was on the outline has been cut out in edits. The really fun, creative stuff came up spontaneously through the month of writing.
I dabbled with the snowflake method and decided it's not for me. If I'm going to spend that much time and energy putting words on a page, I'd rather have real pages to show for it- not just character sketches and outlines. As long as I have a general idea of where the story is going, I'm usually OK.
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Writing outlines make me want to throttle something/someone. That being said, i'm taking a quick break... i've been writing an outline. What tends to happen for me if i don't use one is that i go through everything very quickly, and by the end, i have to go back and flesh it out. It ends up that the first draft was more of an outline. and i don't know about you, but i don't want a 72 page outline. So i'm going to try it this way... hope everythign works out well... if not, i'll go back to writing as things come to me.
The important thing is to not be inflexible either way you go. Sometimes things need planning to work, and sometimes you'll come up with great ideas that aren't on the outline. Then again, sometimes you'll come up with really bad ideas that aren't on the outline... that happens to me... a lot. That's why i like outlines (ok... i HATE outlines, but spending some time on a rough outline saves me a lot of time staring at a blank screen later), they let me have a general goal, i know what's going to happen, and if i come up with a crappy idea... it's easier to tell that it's not a stroke of genius. (The problem comes when i come up with a crappy idea at 4am and my sleep deprived brain convinces me that it's a great one... yay for editing in the morning ;) )
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As I spent three hours yesterday outlining and getting all my ideas on paper as quickly as possible, I'm going to come back out in support of outlines again. When I started yesterday I had one scene in my head and no idea where I was going from there. After outlining, and adjusting, and making sure I was keeping my ideas reasonably straight, I now have a firm start on my next book. In eight pages I've partially fleshed out twelve chapters on the path to many more, so I have to say that outlining can be a great way to get lots of ideas down while still keeping a flexible path from which to deviate whenever it becomes inconvenient.
I don't know about the rest of you, but if I don't write down my ideas they tend to kinda get lost somewhere and ideas I had that were great at the time I can't remember when I'm actually writing. That bugs the shit out of me. It's also why I keep a notebook next to my bed in case I wake up with a great idea so I can scribble it down and go back to sleep.
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hrm, nope, my "great" ideas tend to stick with me in general. However, if i wake up having dreamed it (as you mentioned) i'm almost sure to forget... a week or two ago i had a great dream for a story, sadly, i didn't get it written down and it is now lost forever. On the bright side, i got a damned good idea for another one ;D
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I can do outlines for lengthy scenes, but not usually for an entire novel. It's more a case that I have certain things that I want to include and then check them off as I go along. Other times, entire scenes will play out in my head (usually when I'm in the bath/on a walk and can't write them down) so I scribble them down as is and then work them in later.
Outlines may help me see where I want to get to in the end, but since I tend to start off with a single idea/scene and then work forward from there, I don't often know exactly how the story will end before I get to the half-way point. Or if I have an idea for an ending, by the time I get there, I may think that's terrible and want to try something else entirely. (Even if it means cutting out a character completely.)
Basically, outlines are great for essays. For anything where the content is likely to be much more fluid, it's probably best not to plan too rigidly.
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I've found I have to outline. I really wish I could just sit down, and it would all flow out, but what ends up happening is that it flows out with no direction. So my process usually involves something like this:
1. Non-writing stage where I muster ideas in daily life (gym, driving, etc.)
2. White board notes--just brainstorming
3. Ordering of events in a list
4. The synopsis/outline - this is the monster. I go through chapter by chapter and write out what's going to happen in detail. It's not set in stone, and some things get finalized when I write the real deal ("over lunch, their rapport builds" - the means of that rapport are figured out later). It's a fantastic roadmap and gets me going because it's like a directive I have to follow. My last one was ~18pages single-spaced. It sounds crazy, but it's also good because my editor likes to see them before I write the book.
Never thought I'd do anything like this because I'm disorganized otherwise.
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It's great to hear that there is no single right way to do it. I've (for the moment) have settled on using a mental outline for the overall story. Then writing down chapter after chapter working towards the events I know I want to happen. Usually I end up putting a detail in to flesh out the scene that sparks a new idea and adds to the mental outline (or subtracts depending on the detail). So far the basic premise of the outline has stayed the same, but the mechanisms I thought would get me there has changed.
Now after saying all that I'm gauranteed to change my mind on outlines in the morning. Go figure. At least I'm writing, right?
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Sometimes there's an outline, sometime's there's not. Sometimes its really frickin' vague. The latter usually works the best.
Most times I toss the outline out the window because my brain up and goes "HEY! What if THIS happened instead?" and the rest of the outline makes no sense after that.
The only story I'm going to keep smack dab right on with the outline is two original stories I've got going in a world I created called Medi Varnl. Vague outlines but the plot looks good to me. Now the issue is writing the dang thing, heh.
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Sweet merciful crap... I spent the first 3/4 of my current novel without an outline...
Then I got stuck at the end...
Then Jim Butcher told me to outline...so I did...
And sweet mother of mercy...I'll be damned if I didn't outline the entire last quarter of the book within a few hours...while coming up with some awesome ideas I'd never have thought of without the outline.
So, thank you Mr. Butcher, I'm now converted to the smart way, and all the better for it.
I also found that after stalling for about an hour, once I finally started the outline of the last few chapters, it got rolling and I didn't really even have to think about it. The last scenes just came and flew onto the paper. So now I'm going to be up all night putting them to the computer.
Once again, thank you Jim!
B. L. Garver
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Sweet merciful crap... I spent the first 3/4 of my current novel without an outline...
Then I got stuck at the end...
Then Jim Butcher told me to outline...so I did...
And sweet mother of mercy...I'll be damned if I didn't outline the entire last quarter of the book within a few hours...while coming up with some awesome ideas I'd never have thought of without the outline.
So, thank you Mr. Butcher, I'm now converted to the smart way, and all the better for it.
No disrespect to Jim here, but this is another one of those places where everyone is different. I know of at least one quite successful published author who has been writing a very similar outline for every book she's published for years and hopes some days to get characters who won't take it off in a totally new and different direction by the third chapter.
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I tend to try coming up with an idea for the beginning and the ending, with a few ideas for major plot points along the way... but if I try doing more than that, the plot just feels too mechanical for me. I try letting my characters tell their own story... Only trouble is, this could explain why the supporting male character who can shapeshift into a 30-foot dragon keeps trying to take over my current story. Not even deciding to give this guy his own novel to star in could keep him in check! :: Laughs::
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NO OUTLINES
outlines take up so much time i mean sure it might help organize but i find just writing whatever is on the tip of your fingers is better. then you can go back read over edit, change words,delete words, add words etc but outlines are a no
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Outlines. No outlines. In the end you gots to do what works for you.
I outline. When it came to writing my novel, I wrote down every idea I had, wherever I was. I kept all of these ideas in a notebook. Then, I started to organize these into where they would happen in the novel. Eventually it was able to be expanded into a chapter by chapter outline. It made writing a lot easier. I knew where I was starting, what needed to happen from start to finish, and where I was ending. Now on my fourth draft, the story has drastically changed from that outline, but the skeleton is still there, I've just rearranged and bulked up some of the flesh.
Matt