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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: zoellert on May 11, 2015, 12:30:36 PM

Title: Soulfire Question for PP
Post by: zoellert on May 11, 2015, 12:30:36 PM
Since the release of the Paranet Papers and the changes to Soulfire, I have a question for everyone here's interpretation.

According to YS288 it says

Quote
In addition, if you already practice evocation, you may use a sponsored power source to “supercharge” an element you've already specialized in.

but in PP under The Mechanic of Soulfire it doesn't say anything about being able to supercharge spells. I don't know what to do any my GM is stuck as well. What does the board think it means?
Title: Re: Soulfire Question for PP
Post by: Haru on May 11, 2015, 01:45:41 PM
I haven't read the Paranet Papers yet. In the old version, you can take sponsor debt to do all kinds of things. You could take a point of sponsor debt to increase your roll by 2. You could take a point of sponsor debt to put an aspect on your spell that might change how it behaves. So instead of a fireball you might conjure up a butterfly made of flames that can fly around a corner to hit a target.
Title: Re: Soulfire Question for PP
Post by: zoellert on May 11, 2015, 05:00:53 PM
Quote from: Haru on May 11, 2015, 01:45:41 PM
I haven't read the Paranet Papers yet. In the old version, you can take sponsor debt to do all kinds of things. You could take a point of sponsor debt to increase your roll by 2. You could take a point of sponsor debt to put an aspect on your spell that might change how it behaves. So instead of a fireball you might conjure up a butterfly made of flames that can fly around a corner to hit a target.

yes, i get that, but PP replaced debt with a stress track for Soulfire now so it seems you could only supercharge a spell if you take a stress on the Soul track but since it wasn't clear we weren't sure.
Title: Re: Soulfire Question for PP
Post by: Sanctaphrax on May 12, 2015, 12:36:08 AM
There are three effects of Soulfire that I think you could describe as "supercharging" evocation.

First, it provides +1 power to "creative" evocations.

Second, it makes your magic more effective against Toughness.

Third, it lets you cast from the soul stress track.

Is that what you're after, zoellert?
Title: Re: Soulfire Question for PP
Post by: zoellert on May 12, 2015, 02:51:10 AM
Quote from: Sanctaphrax on May 12, 2015, 12:36:08 AM
There are three effects of Soulfire that I think you could describe as "supercharging" evocation.

First, it provides +1 power to "creative" evocations.

Second, it makes your magic more effective against Toughness.

Third, it lets you cast from the soul stress track.

Is that what you're after, zoellert?

Kind of, my main question is do you have to take soul stress when using Soulfire?

For instance: Can you supercharge an evocation to downgrade a creature's toughness for "free" like you can with other sponsors? Or must you pay a soul stress to use it?
Title: Re: Soulfire Question for PP
Post by: Sanctaphrax on May 12, 2015, 03:30:56 AM
You do not have to take soul stress when using soulfire. There's nothing in the writeup that suggests that the other bonuses depend on the use of the soul stress track.
Title: Re: Soulfire Question for PP
Post by: zoellert on May 12, 2015, 03:50:04 AM
Quote from: Sanctaphrax on May 12, 2015, 03:30:56 AM
You do not have to take soul stress when using soulfire. There's nothing in the writeup that suggests that the other bonuses depend on the use of the soul stress track.
It says somewhere about the stress track that "You must choose to use it to enhance your spells." So it wasn't 100% obvious to me us if it was allowed to use without taking Soul stress immediately.
Title: Re: Soulfire Question for PP
Post by: Sanctaphrax on May 12, 2015, 03:55:23 AM
Huh.

You know, I read that completely differently. To me it just seemed like a re-statement of the earlier sentences in that paragraph.

But now I'm doubting myself a bit. I still think what I said above is true, but I'm a bit less confident now.

Gah. As if the writeup wasn't ambiguous enough already.
Title: Re: Soulfire Question for PP
Post by: zoellert on May 12, 2015, 03:59:03 AM
This is our solution: my GM let's me use it for free and if in an instance I would take sponsor debt, I use the stress track instead.

Does that sound right to you?
Title: Re: Soulfire Question for PP
Post by: Chee on May 12, 2015, 04:08:08 AM
That would be my solution, as well. I think the track was meant to step in for the sponsor. But it really is ambiguous.
Title: Re: Soulfire Question for PP
Post by: Shaft on May 12, 2015, 03:03:11 PM
Quote from: Sanctaphrax on May 12, 2015, 12:36:08 AM
...it makes your magic more effective against Toughness.

I always assumed that it actually triggers the Catch against anything vulnerable to Holy attacks.
Title: Re: Soulfire Question for PP
Post by: Chee on May 12, 2015, 04:15:36 PM
It does that too. Anything it doesn't meet, it degrades.
Title: Re: Soulfire Question for PP
Post by: Theogony_IX on May 12, 2015, 04:24:11 PM
Yeah, the soul stress track appears to replace the sponsor.  The example in the book allows you to absorb backlash with the soul stress track.  It also says you can self-inflict the stress to deal with any associated magic costs.  I would interpret that to mean that if you want to increase the power of a spell, you can absorb the stress of summoning power with the soul stress track as well.

In other words, its just an additional stress track for magic casting costs only.  You can cast longer and/or bigger with this additional stress track.  Using your soul track to pay for your casting in any way triggers the catch satisfying effect.  The +1 bonuses apply to any magic cast in the specified themes whether using the soul track to fuel the spell or not.

EDIT:  Maybe I missed it, but the part that isn't clear for me is whether you can split stress between the soul track and other tracks.  I want to cast a spell that requires I take 4 mental stress, but my #4 mental stress box has already been filled.  Can I take 3 mental and 1 soul?

Personally, I'd say yes.
Title: Re: Soulfire Question for PP
Post by: Sanctaphrax on May 13, 2015, 04:17:55 AM
I'd say no. You can't usually split stress, and Soulfire is already plenty strong.

Quote from: zoellert on May 12, 2015, 03:59:03 AM
This is our solution: my GM let's me use it for free and if in an instance I would take sponsor debt, I use the stress track instead.

Does that sound right to you?

Kind of. I think he's right to let you use it for free, and the stress track was explicitly intended to replace sponsor debt, but it's not usable in the same situations. So in some of the instances where you would take sponsor debt, the stress track won't be appropriate.

For example, you can't use the stress track to hit a dodging opponent.
Title: Re: Soulfire Question for PP
Post by: Taran on May 13, 2015, 02:30:25 PM
Quote
Can I take 3 mental and 1 soul?

It sounds like it works more like

Mental   / Soul stress
0000    (00)

So it's like the extra boxes on toughness?
Title: Re: Soulfire Question for PP
Post by: dragoonbuster on May 13, 2015, 04:44:12 PM
Quote from: Taran on May 13, 2015, 02:30:25 PM
It sounds like it works more like

Mental   / Soul stress
0000    (00)

So it's like the extra boxes on toughness?

It's definitely a separate stress track.


This is the question that made me decide not to use Soulfire as written in the Paranet Papers. I find it to be confusing, and it complicates an issue that wasn't that big of a deal to begin with. I've never had a problem with using Sponsor Debt for Soulfire and just framing it in a different light, personally.
Title: Re: Soulfire Question for PP
Post by: Theogony_IX on May 13, 2015, 08:43:45 PM
Quote from: Sanctaphrax on May 13, 2015, 04:17:55 AM
I'd say no. You can't usually split stress, and Soulfire is already plenty strong.

The only reason I'd say yes is because it fits the narration in the book better.  Harry regularly adds bits of his soul to his casting,  He doesn't usually cast with only his soul.  I realize that using the books as a guide isn't the best balancing technique for the game, but it seems more fun to me matching the books that way. *shrug  I know it's odd, but it doesn't seem very game breaking to me considering the cost and requirements of the power.
Title: Re: Soulfire Question for PP
Post by: zoellert on May 14, 2015, 12:11:35 AM
I have a separate stress track on my sheet. When I fail a discipline roll I shunt it to my soul stress track if I cant afford it on my mental track.

On the flip side I can see how it would seem that you have take a soul  stress everyone time you cast. Its ambiguous and confusing.
Title: Re: Soulfire Question for PP
Post by: Theogony_IX on January 27, 2016, 09:37:27 PM
I've got a player building a new character and is interested in the new soulfire mechanic.  Has anyone played with the new soulfire rules.  I want to check in with people using it on the ground.  How do you adjudicate use of the soul stress track and the bonuses that soulfire offers?  Do you let all of the character's spell satisfy the holy catch and reduce toughness powers?  Does any use get the +1 power/complexity if making things, or do you only offer than when the soul track is being used?

How is the cost?  Are the two stress boxes and consequence enough to justify the -3 cost?
Title: Re: Soulfire Question for PP
Post by: dragoonbuster on January 28, 2016, 12:25:23 AM
Quote from: Theogony_IX on January 27, 2016, 09:37:27 PM
I've got a player building a new character and is interested in the new soulfire mechanic.  Has anyone played with the new soulfire rules.  I want to check in with people using it on the ground.  How do you adjudicate use of the soul stress track and the bonuses that soulfire offers?  Do you let all of the character's spell satisfy the holy catch and reduce toughness powers?  Does any use get the +1 power/complexity if making things, or do you only offer than when the soul track is being used?

How is the cost?  Are the two stress boxes and consequence enough to justify the -3 cost?

Originally I wasn't a fan of this power, but after analyzing it some more and trying to think of a solution to the vague parts of the power, I came up with a modification of the rules that make it clearer. It's worked well on Ragnarok so far and I expect it will be fine for the upcoming Babylon, DC game. To start, you only can get the benefits listed from Soulfire when casting a Soulfire-infused spell, which means by default you get 2 spells this way, max (before taking consequences), before you are out of Soulfire and have to justify clearing your stress track. If you DO infuse a spell with Soulfire, that spell gets ALL of the listed benefits that are applicable to the spell in question. Now, here are the modifications we use to the Power:

- The maximum length your Soulfire track can be is equal to your Conviction skill
- The only thing the Soulfire track can be used for is for self-inflicted stress taken when using magic. You may take a hit to this stress track to boost the power of a spell by that many shifts (this cannot replace a mental stress hit for calling up power, but is used to "reinforce" the spell with additional power). You may also use this stress track to absorb Backlash; like standard Backlash rules you may only use one stress track at a time to absorb a spell's Backlash. You may use this track to reinforce spells via Power or Backlash or both; in any case, you receive all of the applicable benefits Soulfire might add to the spell.


Soulfire done this way is powerful but a good deal for -3 refresh.

Title: Re: Soulfire Question for PP
Post by: Theogony_IX on January 28, 2016, 06:15:01 PM
Quote from: dragoonbuster on January 28, 2016, 12:25:23 AM
- The only thing the Soulfire track can be used for is for self-inflicted stress taken when using magic. You may take a hit to this stress track to boost the power of a spell by that many shifts (this cannot replace a mental stress hit for calling up power, but is used to "reinforce" the spell with additional power). You may also use this stress track to absorb Backlash; like standard Backlash rules you may only use one stress track at a time to absorb a spell's Backlash. You may use this track to reinforce spells via Power or Backlash or both; in any case, you receive all of the applicable benefits Soulfire might add to the spell.

Clarify this for me.

Skills:
+5: Conviction, Discipline

Mental:  OOOO
Soul:  OO

I call up 6 shifts of power mark off my #2 mental box.

Mental:  OXOO
Soul:  OO

I want to infuse the spell with Soulfire because I'm fighting a Black Court.  I'll use my #2 soul box.

Mental:  OXOO
Soul:  OX

Right?  So how does it work from here?  I have 8 shifts called up.  Do I need to control all 8?  Or am I controlling the 6 shifts and the 2 soul shifts are a free addition to my weapon value?

EDIT: I'm not creating anything, so I don't get a +1 anywhere, but it does satisfy the Holy catch of the vampire, yes?  If I were creating something, it would be 9 shifts that I would have to control, right?
Title: Re: Soulfire Question for PP
Post by: dragoonbuster on January 29, 2016, 06:21:37 AM
Quote from: Theogony_IX on January 28, 2016, 06:15:01 PM
Right?  So how does it work from here?  I have 8 shifts called up.  Do I need to control all 8?  Or am I controlling the 6 shifts and the 2 soul shifts are a free addition to my weapon value?

EDIT: I'm not creating anything, so I don't get a +1 anywhere, but it does satisfy the Holy catch of the vampire, yes?  If I were creating something, it would be 9 shifts that I would have to control, right?

You've got 8 shifts of power. Control it all.

Satisfies Holy. If you'd created something, yes, you'd have 9 shifts of power, so you'd have to control all 9.
Title: Re: Soulfire Question for PP
Post by: Taran on January 29, 2016, 04:05:56 PM
How does soulfire compare with the traditional way of doing it?  More or Less Powerful?  or the same?

3 refresh vs 5 refresh.  But lots of justification for evothaum and every spell can satisfy a catch....
Title: Re: Soulfire Question for PP
Post by: dragoonbuster on January 29, 2016, 05:16:42 PM
Quote from: Taran on January 29, 2016, 04:05:56 PM
How does soulfire compare with the traditional way of doing it?  More or Less Powerful?  or the same?

3 refresh vs 5 refresh.  But lots of justification for evothaum and every spell can satisfy a catch....

It sort of depends. If you already have spellcasting and pay -3 for the YS Soulfire, the PP is much better. If you have no spellcasting and pay -5 for YS Soulfire, you're getting a pretty good deal.

The way in which PP Soulfire works (at least under the clarified/modified rules) is really satisfying to see in action, though. And a powerfully good deal. It makes your spellcasting (well, a couple spells) pretty frightening, in a good way.
Title: Re: Soulfire Question for PP
Post by: Theogony_IX on January 29, 2016, 05:33:52 PM
Yeah, it sounds like you're getting a good deal of utility to augment your spellcasting.  Sounds pretty close to how it works in the novel too.

How do you think 4 refresh of soulfire stacks up to 4 refresh of mental toughness (2 refinement and inhuman mental toughness)?
Title: Re: Soulfire Question for PP
Post by: dragoonbuster on January 29, 2016, 07:52:40 PM
Quote from: Theogony_IX on January 29, 2016, 05:33:52 PM
Yeah, it sounds like you're getting a good deal of utility to augment your spellcasting.  Sounds pretty close to how it works in the novel too.

How do you think 4 refresh of soulfire stacks up to 4 refresh of mental toughness (2 refinement and inhuman mental toughness)?

I dislike Mental Toughness, so my house rule is it doesn't apply to self-inflicted mental stress (so, spellcasting). By extension, the Refinement requirements are eliminated and anyone with a good reason can take it (which I call tiered "Will" rather than throwing "Mental" in front of "Toughness"). (Demonic Co-Pilot is not self-inflicted stress, technically.)

Since I haven't seen it in action vs Soulfire, I can't say for sure, but I would venture to guess that the IMT is better. Talking strictly evocation optimization, since these abilities are less useful for Thaumaturgy, assuming a Conviction and Discipline of Superb, zeroes on Control rolls, and four focus item slots spent on a +2 Offensive/Defensive Control item, the math is below.

Inhuman Mental Toughness:
+2 boxes of stress and Armor: 1 against mental stress; I believe the general consensus is that the Armor doesn't apply to spellcasting so I'll assume that. So, you get the typical complement of spell options, plus two more potential spells per scene, one at a potential +4 and one at +5 power, too.
-Your apex element can be cast @ +2 P/+1 C (assuming you have no more than the two Refinement)
- With this in mind, you can cast the following spells per turn, assuming you're using your apex element and are not worried about absorbing Backlash, tagging stuff, or spending FPs for enough Control:
(click to show/hide)

Soulfire:
+1, +2, and +3 power on one spell (of any kind) each.
- Assume +1 to Control apex element w/ Evocation Specialization
- 3 spells that downgrade Toughness by 1 level (== free +3 Stress on successful strikes w/ attacks vs Tough opponents, effectively, given that most Attack spells strike in the upper range of an opponent's stress track)
- Possible +1 add'l point of power on each of those spells based on narration (easy to do), so now we're at +2, +3, and +4 Power
- With this in mind, you can cast the following spells per turn, assuming you're not worried about absorbing Backlash, tagging stuff, or spending FPs for enough Control:
(click to show/hide)

My Assessment:
With apex-element casting, you can pull out 57% more shifts with IMT vs SF. With non-apex-element casting, you're getting 36% more shifts w/ IMT vs SF. If all your Soulfire spells are not Attacks, this ratio gets worse.

I don't consider the Holy catch especially worth anything much, since Fire in particular can cover a lot of thing's Catches too. There are ways of statting these options more optimally but I wanted more of an apples to apples comparison. On top of the extra shifts, getting to cast 2 additional spells per conflict, to me, is seriously powerful and tips the scales to me (which is why I don't like using it in the first place).

EDIT: Soulfire grants additional flexibility with narrative freedom from Evothaum, in addition to the ability to lay out several aspects at a time with evothaum maneuvering, which is powerful--but you only get a few of those and it's not as useful for outright offense vs an Attack spell. The flexibility is worth something, but not a score or more shifts per conflict, I'd say. Your spells appear a little easier to balance with Soulfire in terms of power vs control, but in practice I don't think that's as important a consideration. Soulfire is a pretty solid addition to magic--the PP RAW IMT is broken powerful.

EDIT II: Fixed some math.
Title: Re: Soulfire Question for PP
Post by: Theogony_IX on February 01, 2016, 05:36:48 PM
Ah yes, he extra spells you get with IH mental toughness on top of the upper limit is shifts compared to your way of running soulfire would make a big difference.  Thank you for the breakdown. That was super helpful.
Title: Re: Soulfire Question for PP
Post by: RonLugge on February 01, 2016, 08:16:17 PM
Quote from: dragoonbuster on January 29, 2016, 07:52:40 PM
I dislike Mental Toughness, so my house rule is it doesn't apply to self-inflicted mental stress (so, spellcasting). By extension, the Refinement requirements are eliminated and anyone with a good reason can take it (which I call tiered "Will" rather than throwing "Mental" in front of "Toughness"). (Demonic Co-Pilot is not self-inflicted stress, technically.)

While I don't like the renaming, I have to admit this sounds like a great way to rebuild mental toughness into something reasonable.  Mental Toughness:  just like physical toughness, but with a locked in [+0] catch of self-inflicted stress.

The spellcasting version...  any power I look at and go 'that's a must have!' I tend to eye with suspicion as being a tad bit too powerful.  And when even a crafter specialist wizard eyes an evocation-oriented power (for the extra uses/scene for his items), well, you might just be looking at something too powerful.
Title: Re: Soulfire Question for PP
Post by: Sanctaphrax on February 01, 2016, 11:21:24 PM
I think you're overrating Mental Toughness a bit. It's certainly worth its cost, but the sort of shift-counting that you did there is going to give you a misleading impression.

Ignoring backlash like that isn't a good idea, and the measure of a wizard's power isn't the number of shifts they can put out in a scene. If it was, a guy who could cast power 1 control 1 spells for free would be better than the whole Senior Council.
Title: Re: Soulfire Question for PP
Post by: Theogony_IX on February 01, 2016, 11:43:14 PM
What is your analysis, Sanctaphrax?  How would you compare the two?
Title: Re: Soulfire Question for PP
Post by: dragoonbuster on February 02, 2016, 12:09:59 AM
Quote from: Sanctaphrax on February 01, 2016, 11:21:24 PM
I think you're overrating Mental Toughness a bit. It's certainly worth its cost, but the sort of shift-counting that you did there is going to give you a misleading impression.

Ignoring backlash like that isn't a good idea, and the measure of a wizard's power isn't the number of shifts they can put out in a scene. If it was, a guy who could cast power 1 control 1 spells for free would be better than the whole Senior Council.

I fail to see how you'd practically compare the powers in another way. I pretty clearly hedged my statements with the fact that I know there are flaws in the analysis, and what those flaws are, but there are always going to be flaws in any analysis. I'm looking at situations when you're going all out with your magic in a prepared fight where you've got the FPs or Maneuvers to weather most of the Backlash. If I'd more optimized the Focus Item assumption I made, the contrast between the powers would have become even more stark; a +4 to control offensive spells would have introduced another 4 shifts extra from MT vs SF, and if we compared defense it would've been 13 shifts extra from MT vs SG, and quite a bit less Backlash to boot. Mental Toughness obviously is less OP if you're not using it to its full extent...like any power would be. If you don't stretch both Soulfire and Mental Toughness to their limits, you can't get a practical comparison at all, short of running the exact same conflict twice with the only differences being the magic user's sheet, which still would see no practical possible differentiation until each PC was stretched.

I think you're overrating your assessment of my assessment a bit; I'm pretty sure I've got a great impression of Mental Toughness's power, whether or not you agree with it. A measure of a wizard's power is LITERALLY the number of shifts they can put out in a practical scenario with reasonable assumptions. It is practical to assume there might be 6 exchanges in a conflict. Your counterexample is farcical and insincere; you can't assume most fights will go for hundreds of exchanges, which is what your scenario would require to balance--and that's assuming the non-single-shift caster's opponents are somehow tied up and can't act. Even if the Senior Council were totally out of magical gas, they can do things like punch and throw things and move around, and presumably these aren't all at Mediocre or Average for all the Council; Weapon: 1, 1 to strike spells forever is obviously weaker than even a normal spellcaster, let alone vs SF or MT, and using my comparison method would prove it HANDILY if you deigned to consider it properly.

This is the only way to compare two different sets of powers: how many shifts are you getting out of one versus the other, in the same situation? If it is not, how could you possibly make an objective argument regarding the strength of one power versus another? You'd simply ram opinions around, otherwise, and while there's plenty of room for opinion in an RPG, there are also definitely situational advantages one power will provide over another, demonstrably making it a better power for that set of assumptions.

If it were not, why is magic considered so powerful in DFRPG? Sure, there's room for doing impossible things you couldn't otherwise accomplish, but practically speaking that rarely really gives you an advantage you couldn't have created another way. The strength of magic in the system is obviously the fact that you can achieve incredibly high weapon damages and rather high Blocks and Maneuvers compared to most PCs. The most significant limit to this power is the clearly limited number of times you get to perform a spell in a conflict. When you take that limiting number and increase it by fifty percent, you've suddenly dramatically changed the effectiveness of that limitation.

Even if we applied Backlash shifts as negative shifts towards the total instead of ignoring them, you get:
Mental Toughness, Apex: 95 shifts
Soulfire, Apex: 64 shifts
48% more shifts

Mental Toughness, Non-Apex: 62 shifts
Soulfire, Non-Apex: 49 shifts
26.5% more shifts

Even if we were to allow for Soulfire users performing two actions when the MT-user has those two extra spells, to be completely even in the assessment, and assuming they have a useful skill to use at Superb, that's only 10 shifts more--you're still 3 shifts lower w/ SF vs MT in the non-apex situation. If you use those two actions to maneuver with Discipline for a +2 to control two spells, you've just now beaten MT in a non-apex situation by something like 9 shifts...but only until you use more optimized Focus Items or use a lot of defense, and then once again MT comes out on top. So in all situations you might run into where your magic is strained, except non-optimized non-apex casting (pretty uncommon...), MT comes out on top--and most of the time, significantly on top.

I realize I'm in the minority regarding my opinion on Mental Toughness and PCs, but that's why we all have our own sandboxes.
Title: Re: Soulfire Question for PP
Post by: Tipop on February 02, 2016, 12:53:06 AM
Quote from: dragoonbuster on January 29, 2016, 07:52:40 PM

Inhuman Mental Toughness:
+2 boxes of stress and Armor: 1 against mental stress; I believe the general consensus is that the Armor doesn't apply to spellcasting so I'll assume that.

Actually, the book pretty clearly says it's only armor vs mental ATTACKS. So that automatically discounts spellcasting stress.
Title: Re: Soulfire Question for PP
Post by: Sanctaphrax on February 02, 2016, 01:27:17 AM
Quote from: dragoonbuster on February 02, 2016, 12:09:59 AM
I fail to see how you'd practically compare the powers in another way.

...

If it is not, how could you possibly make an objective argument regarding the strength of one power versus another?

Read them, play with them, go through some example scenes with them. When using one, think to yourself; would I rather have the other?

It's not very mathematical, and the final report will always be partially a judgement call. Which is a shame. But I think that's unavoidable.

Quote from: dragoonbuster on February 02, 2016, 12:09:59 AM
A measure of a wizard's power is LITERALLY the number of shifts they can put out in a practical scenario with reasonable assumptions.

It really isn't. One weapon 10 accuracy 10 attack is much better than two weapon 5 accuracy 5 attacks. Shifts don't add linearly.

It's also important to look at what those shifts can be spent on. Soulfire has the edge here, with its evothaum and its holyness and so on.

And for what it's worth, I don't really think having enough FP and maneuvers on hand to make backlash a non-issue is a reasonable assumption unless you built your character with a strong focus on control over power. You can do that though, so if you want to use such a character for this comparison that seems reasonable to me.

Quote from: dragoonbuster on February 02, 2016, 12:09:59 AM
Your counterexample is farcical and insincere; you can't assume most fights will go for hundreds of exchanges, which is what your scenario would require to balance--and that's assuming the non-single-shift caster's opponents are somehow tied up and can't act.

Farcical, yes. But quite sincere.

The things that make the Senior Council better than Mr. One-Shift are the same things that make shift-counting in general so misleading. I was trying to use an extreme example to make those things obvious.

Quote from: Theogony_IX on February 01, 2016, 11:43:14 PM
What is your analysis, Sanctaphrax?  How would you compare the two?

I haven't actually used either, so I'm not super confident in my judgement, but I think they both look like solid worthwhile Powers.

Looking at canon Soulfire and not the version dragoonbuster uses:

Both offer 2 extra stress boxes that you can cast spells from. IMT's boxes are better because they're on the mental stress track. But Soulfire also gives a bonus mild consequence. In terms of increasing your spellcasting stamina, I think they're pretty close to even.

IMT also protects you from mental attacks, Soulfire also pierces Toughness. These are situational bonuses; if you fight White Court Vamps all the time you'll probably like IMT. If you fight demons, you'll probably like Soulfire. So part of the balance is game-dependent.

Soulfire gives a field of evothaum and +1 power to a lot of spells, IMT has a Catch. This makes Soulfire look better, but it costs more.

I don't see much justification for calling either superior. And neither seems clearly better or worse than Refinement, either.

With dragoonbuster ruling that you can't cast spells entirely from soul stress, that changes the deal. Under that ruling I'd be inclined away from Soulfire unless I expected to use the defense-piercing effects a lot.